Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

cython

bk wrote: »

I honestly don't see what the problem with it is. If you follow the rules of the road, then you have nothing to worry about from these sort of people. If on the other hand you break the rules, for instance turning right here, then you get fined and penalty points. Simple as that.

It is not as if any of these people are catching people who aren't breaking the law.

As soon as you commoditise it, then those contracted with enforcing it will look at points where they can nail people at the highest frequency rather than where it has a net effect, compromising the whole thing. For example, while it's strictly speaking illegal to cut across a bus lane early to turn left, there are places where many people do this with no impact if they make sure the bus lane is clear first. By contrast, infrequent occurrences of someone flying up a bus lane and getting stuck and thus obstructing buses cause more problems. As soon as you link payment to rate of detection, then the first of these is where they will prioritise setting up the checkpoint.

The other alternative is to tie their hands to such an extent that this isn't an option, but at that rate you might as well make it a flat rate contract.

bk

cython wrote: »

As soon as you commoditise it, then those contracted with enforcing it will look at points where they can nail people at the highest frequency rather than where it has a net effect, compromising the whole thing.

You mean people breaking the law.

I'm sorry, but all I'm hearing is people complaining about getting caught breaking the law!

Ben D Bus

bk wrote: »

You mean people breaking the law.

I'm sorry, but all I'm hearing is people complaining about getting caught breaking the law!

The problem is if the application of the law is perceived to be of direct benefit to those applying it then even those who obey the law will feel they are not fairly treated by said law.

This becomes public pressure on those deciding the laws. The media jumps on it too and before you know it populist politicians are offering to repeal the law, or remove the bus lane, or the water charges or whatever. Traffic returns to chaos, water mains continue bursting etc.

Nobody wins.

Law enforecement MUST have public support. It's not optional because it is doomed to failure without it.

cython

bk wrote: »

You mean people breaking the law.

I'm sorry, but all I'm hearing is people complaining about getting caught breaking the law!

Technically if you walk outside the lines at a pedestrian crossing you are breaking the law - would you also like to see profit-incentivised enforcement of that? If so, then happy days (well not really, but it suggests a slavish adherence for the sake of adherence that can't be argued with), but black and white application combined with a vested interest is a dangerous combination, IMHO.

devnull

The lack of zero tolerance and the abuse of discretion is why low level law breaking is much more common in this country than others.

Everything from the taxi drivers who park in illegal places to the people driving in the bus lanes and all of the other traffic offences that happen on a regular basis would happen far less if the offenders knew they'd be nailed every time.

At the moment they just know nothing is going to get done, so keep doing the same thing over and over as a Garda will simply tell them not to do it again and they move up the road and do the same.

Same with the vandals stoning the buses, if they actually got some real punishment they'd think twice about doing it again, but that needs more of a zero tolerance attitude to crime and proper enforcement by the courts.

Ben D Bus

devnull wrote: »

The lack of zero tolerance and the abuse of discretion is why low level law breaking is much more common in this country than others.

Everything from the taxi drivers who park in illegal places to the people driving in the bus lanes and all of the other traffic offences that happen on a regular basis would happen far less if the offenders knew they'd be nailed every time.

At the moment they just know nothing is going to get done, so keep doing the same thing over and over as a Garda will simply tell them not to do it again and they move up the road and do the same.

Same with the vandals stoning the buses, if they actually got some real punishment they'd think twice about doing it again, but that needs more of a zero tolerance attitude to crime and proper enforcement by the courts.

I agree with all of this. It's just the idea of rewarding a 3rd party on a per-detection basis that I think would be a PR disaster and result in a populist withdrawl of enforecement altogether.

devnull

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I agree with all of this. It's just the idea of rewarding a 3rd party on a per-detection basis that I think would be a PR disaster and result in a populist withdrawl of enforecement altogether.

The problem is that if you don't pay them on a per detection basis, there's no incentive for them to do the job properly and actually properly enforce what they are paid to enforce rather than just taking it easy and not being arsed since they're paid the same whether they actually put in any effort or not.

cython

devnull wrote: »

The problem is that if you don't pay them on a per detection basis, there's no incentive for them to do the job properly and actually properly enforce what they are paid to enforce rather than just taking it easy and not being arsed since they're paid the same whether they actually put in any effort or not.

And in the utopia where we have 100% compliance there eventually becomes no incentive to actually tender for it, and you end up going to a flat rate anyway in order for them to cover their costs because as soon as enforcement ceases, abuse commences. So if we ensure to pay enough in the flat rate to cover the operational costs should that scenario arise, then it's profiteering to give the fines (or a fraction thereof) to the operator. I'd much rather see 100% of them ploughed back into the public coffers. There are simply too many downsides to "profit-sharing" in law enforcement - can you imagine the uproar and abuse if Gardai were given a financial incentive for every road traffic detection, for example? And that's without involving private enterprise.

Ben D Bus

devnull wrote: »

The problem is that if you don't pay them on a per detection basis, there's no incentive for them to do the job properly and actually properly enforce what they are paid to enforce rather than just taking it easy and not being arsed since they're paid the same whether they actually put in any effort or not.

The delivery of the contract must be monitored by those awarding the contract regardless of the payment method. So I don't believe that is an argument for a pay per detection contract.

Has someone already said the speed detection contract is fixed price?

Anyway, my preference would be for ANPR camera enforcement. Possibly in a supply and maintenance fixed contract with a 3rd party but all fine revenue to the the local authority. And let's cynically ring fence it for something like homeless accommodation so nobody can kick up a fuss

bk

Ben D Bus wrote: »

The delivery of the contract must be monitored by those awarding the contract regardless of the payment method. So I don't believe that is an argument for a pay per detection contract.

There is a reason why every big company in the world pays it's sales staff a commission for each sale. It has proven time and again to be the most effective way to get people to do the job. Monitoring can often be abused, e.g. call center staff simply hanging up on customers before solving the problem, to get their call per hour number up.

Having said that ANPR would do for this particular case. However it would offer less flexibility over all in terms of enforcing taxi drivers, etc.

Ben D Bus

bk wrote: »

There is a reason why every big company in the world pays it's sales staff a commission for each sale. It has proven time and again to be the most effective way to get people to do the job. Monitoring can often be abused, e.g. call center staff simply hanging up on customers before solving the problem, to get their call per hour number up.

Having said that ANPR would do for this particular case. However it would offer less flexibility over all in terms of enforcing taxi drivers, etc.

I've no doubt it's the best way for a company to make sales. But this is law enforcement. I'm sure commission would increase the number of penalties issued and if that's the goal then great. However I'd prefer a goal of changing the public mindset on following rules and on choosing the public transport option to commute.

Treating the public like targets (even those asses who ignore the rules) will not achieve this. It will alienate the public and build resistance to this and any new changes that are for the common good.

Law enforcement needs to be seen by the public as a public service not a corporate enterprise. And BTW, I've no problem with a 3rd party making a decent profit out of enforcing the bus lanes. I just wouldn't want to lose the public's support over it.

bk

The only thing Irish people understand is strong and forceful enforcement. If you give us any leeway we will take the piss and chance our arm. It is just in our nature.

You claim you need public support, not really, the public HATES traffic wardens, clampers, etc. yet they have been working away for years now doing a pretty vital job.

Ben D Bus

bk wrote: »

The only thing Irish people understand is strong and forceful enforcement. If you give us any leeway we will take the piss and chance our arm. It is just in our nature.

OK so.

yer man!

I can understand the point of the wanting the public on your side and not too try and make it all about profit. In saying that though, I don't think there's much other way of getting an effective scheme in place, no way in hell would DCC implement something like that. They don't have the resources or the will to do it, needs to be a third party and the contract needs to be attractive enough for them to expand and be as self financing as possible. The quays are gonna turn into a free for all if something like this isn't brought in.

AlekSmart

yer man! wrote: »

I can understand the point of the wanting the public on your side and not too try and make it all about profit. In saying that though, I don't think there's much other way of getting an effective scheme in place, no way in hell would DCC implement something like that. They don't have the resources or the will to do it, needs to be a third party and the contract needs to be attractive enough for them to expand and be as self financing as possible. The quays are gonna turn into a free for all if something like this isn't brought in.

The good thing is how the concept of removing the Gardai's monopoly on Traffic By-Law enforcement is now being actively discussed.
That ensures it is only a matter of time before it is picked up by a Political Party's detectors.

The traditional Irish administrative approach of Do-Nothing,will kill these initiatives if they are not policed by somebody....anybody

Phil.x

On the radio (Newstalk) this morning about the increase in traffic in and around the stoneybatter area due to bus lanes on the quays.

Apparently it's made the area more dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians.

BeerNut

Phil.x wrote: »

Apparently it's made the area more dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians.

That's not very meaningful without knowing who said it and what it's based on.

AndrewJRenko

BeerNut wrote: »

That's not very meaningful without knowing who said it and what it's based on.

It was a guy pushing the NIMBY campaign for Smithfield and Manor St.

DaveyDave

Haven't read this whole thread, but the new layout seems interesting. I only rarely drive over O'Connell bridge so that will be interesting but I only drive through the city after 6pm.

I have cycled it a bit though. Interesting so far. Got beeped by a coach behind me who wanted to turn at Jervis and wasn't happy with me only doing 32kph :rolleyes: the issue I've noticed though is the bus traffic lights I think after the Hapenny bridge, cars like to move into the lane because there's no motor traffic but the bike lane doesn't need to stop so you'll definitely get cut off by some twat not using their mirrors. Happened to me on my second journey on the new layout.

I feel like there's more space as a cyclist but I still see **** in taxis passing as if bikes aren't there along the Four Courts area without bike lanes...

sweetie

Phil.x wrote: »

On the radio (Newstalk) this morning about the increase in traffic in and around the stoneybatter area due to bus lanes on the quays.

Apparently it's made the area more dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians.

I drive through it crossing the quays and heading towards D8 most mornings and i've not noticed any increase yet on my route (stanley st - brunswick st - church st) since school started back.

Ben D Bus

Test trams running at full tilt today. Anyone seen the effect around OCB?

LXFlyer

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Test trams running at full tilt today. Anyone seen the effect around OCB?

I don't think that they're at peak frequency or anywhere near it yet?

There are a limited number of trams out there all day to start with.

Ben D Bus

LXFlyer wrote: »

I don't think that they're at peak frequency or anywhere near it yet?

There are a limited number of trams out there all day to start with.

Shouldn't have said full tilt but they were passing me at a frequency of about 5-10 minutes around lunchtime and again shortly after 4pm. Maybe I just happened to be out and about at the right time.

monument

Phil.x wrote: »

On the radio (Newstalk) this morning about the increase in traffic in and around the stoneybatter area due to bus lanes on the quays.

Apparently it's made the area more dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians.

Sounds like it was the guy talking about the planned Liffey Cycle Route -- that's not built yet and not really covered by this thread.

cgcsb

The stoneybatter claims are probably due to the coming battle over the Liffey cycle route.

The junction of Brunswick st/manor st/ arbour hill needs to a rethink and simplification anyway.

Sierra Oscar

It looks like these changes have proven to be a big success for public transport users.

Get the bus along Dublin's quays? Trips now take half the time they used to

THE NATIONAL TRANSPORT Authority (NTA) has claimed that changes to traffic flows in Dublin city have made bus transport 45% quicker on the quays.

The NTA said it has been comparing bus journeys in the first full week of September this year with the same period last year and said there have been “substantial reductions” in bus journey times along the north and south quays.

It won't come as a surprise for any of us who use Dublin Bus services which rely on the quays.

LuckyLloyd

It's been a magnificent change.

schemingbohemia

Drove along north quays for first time on Sunday after completing the Great Dublin Bike Ride. Felt like a dope for actually obeying the rules and staying in the car only lane - absolutely dozens of cars driving up the middle bus lane between Capel Street and O'Connell bridge.
The Garda were great marshalling the Bike Ride but there really needs to be enforcement of this new lane, even on Sundays, was very annoying.

schemingbohemia

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Drove along north quays for first time on Sunday after completing the Great Dublin Bike Ride. Felt like a dope for actually obeying the rules and staying in the car only lane - absolutely dozens of cars driving up the middle bus lane between Capel Street and O'Connell bridge.
The Garda were great marshalling the Bike Ride but there really needs to be enforcement of this new lane, even on Sundays, was very annoying.

Is the bus lane definitely in place on a Sunday? Loads of them around the place are Mon-Sat.

NuMarvel

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Drove along north quays for first time on Sunday after completing the Great Dublin Bike Ride. Felt like a dope for actually obeying the rules and staying in the car only lane - absolutely dozens of cars driving up the middle bus lane between Capel Street and O'Connell bridge.
The Garda were great marshalling the Bike Ride but there really needs to be enforcement of this new lane, even on Sundays, was very annoying.

FYI, it's okay to drive in it on Sundays up to the Ha'penny Bridge. Only the section between the Ha'Penny Bridge and OCB is 24 hours, everything else is 7 to 7, Monday to Saturday.

LXFlyer

NuMarvel wrote: »

FYI, it's okay to drive in it on Sundays up to the Ha'penny Bridge. Only the section between the Ha'Penny Bridge and OCB is 24 hours, everything else is 7 to 7, Monday to Saturday.

Which is crazy - people aren't going to suddenly move into the outside lane at that point.

They should be 24/7 the entire length of the Quays.

BonnieSituation

Just got on a 25B (9pm, Tuesday) at Wellington Quay and it's completely full. Standing room only.

Just an update from those of you out there who like this stuff.

Avada

4pm on George's Quay/Burgh Quay was insane. It took a bus 5 cycles of lights to get from Ulster Bank to the other side of the lights.

07Lapierre

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Just got on a 25B (9pm, Tuesday) at Wellington Quay and it's completely full. Standing room only.

Just an update from those of you out there who like this stuff.

Adamastown to Oconnell St? you could cycle that distance in about 1/2 hour/40 minutes. Just sayin.

07Lapierre

07Lapierre wrote: »

Adamastown to Oconnell St? you could cycle that distance in about 1/2 hour/40 minutes. Just sayin.

In the past year I've lived ~8km from my office and about ~20km from my office and in both cases I think cycling has been the fastest way for me to get there.

alentejo

It is a shocking indictment of Dublin’s Public Transport system and general political apathy that cycling anywhere within the M50 ring is quicker than driving and any kind of public transport.

alentejo

alentejo wrote: »

It is a shocking indictment of Dublin’s Public Transport system and general political apathy that cycling anywhere within the M50 ring is quicker than driving and any kind of public transport.

The ~20km cycle mentioned above starts well outside the M50. Still quicker on the bike than any of my public transport options.

LollipopJimmy

I had to bring my car into college last night and drove in the quays at 5.15pm. It was like driving at 5.15am on a Sunday. Now I may have just gotten massively lucky but, well, jaysis

Dravokivich

alentejo wrote: »

It is a shocking indictment of Dublin’s Public Transport system and general political apathy that cycling anywhere within the M50 ring is quicker than driving and any kind of public transport.

You can always get onto the council about removing traffic lights as this is how they can make up a lot of their time against cars through the City. But i'm not too sure if that's a good way to go about it.

07Lapierre

alentejo wrote: »

It is a shocking indictment of Dublin’s Public Transport system and general political apathy that cycling anywhere within the M50 ring is quicker than driving and any kind of public transport.

FYP

bk

alentejo wrote: »

It is a shocking indictment of Dublin’s Public Transport system and general political apathy that cycling anywhere within the M50 ring is quicker than driving and any kind of public transport.

In fairness, you would actually find that same in most European cities, including onces with excellent public transport systems. For instance it is why so many people cycle in Amsterdam, despite them having excellent public transport. A combination of cheaper and faster.

Not saying we have good public transport, we don't, at least not yet. But even when we do, cycling will still likely be one of the fastest and cheapest ways to get around.

BonnieSituation

07Lapierre wrote: »

Adamastown to Oconnell St? you could cycle that distance in about 1/2 hour/40 minutes. Just sayin.

Thanks for your input.

FFS

07Lapierre

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Thanks for your input.

FFS

Your welcome...remember, If you cycle your guaranteed a seat!

BonnieSituation

07Lapierre wrote: »

Your welcome...remember, If you cycle your guaranteed a seat!

I'm usually guaranteed a seat. But the difficulty you would find cycling from Wellington Quay to Griffeen last night was that I had failed to cycle from Griffeen to the CC earlier in the morning. Woe is me.

I hate the cycle from where I live to the city. Always have always will. No amount of smart arse statements will make it anymore bearable.

07Lapierre

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm usually guaranteed a seat. But the difficulty you would find cycling from Wellington Quay to Griffeen last night was that I had failed to cycle from Griffeen to the CC earlier in the morning. Woe is me.

I hate the cycle from where I live to the city. Always have always will. No amount of smart arse statements will make it anymore bearable.

You hate cycling... that's ok.. stop moaning about standing room only and suck it up! It's public transport ... you pay to get from A to B..

thomasj

This morning the traffic on quays was a nightmare.

Don't get me wrong, ormond onwards was fine but before that was a disaster even the bus struggled.

LXFlyer

07Lapierre wrote: »

You hate cycling... that's ok.. stop moaning about standing room only and suck it up! It's public transport ... you pay to get from A to B..

They are also simply making the point that additional off-peak bus capacity is needed - I don't see a problem with that point.

There are many routes that need additional capacity.

Cycling doesn't suit everyone for a variety of reasons , and a little bit of understanding of that fact wouldn't be amiss.

07Lapierre

LXFlyer wrote: »

They are also simply making the point that additional off-peak bus capacity is needed - I don't see a problem with that?

Cycling doesn't suit everyone for a variety of reasons , and a little bit of understanding of that fact wouldn't be amiss.

Solution... remove the seats! ( leave a few for OAP's/disabled)

Think about it...why not? Standing on buses is quite common. It would allow more room for people, kids buggies, shopping bags etc. Makes sense to me.

Ben D Bus

thomasj wrote: »

This morning the traffic on quays was a nightmare.

Don't get me wrong, ormond onwards was fine but before that was a disaster even the bus struggled.

I found it OK around 08:00 this morning. Heavy but moving very well in the bus lane. What I did notice was that Beresford place was at a virtual standstill. Drivers who previously turned onto OCB from Bachelors walk, continuing on to the Matt Talbot and having to loop around the Custom House?

LXFlyer

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I found it OK around 08:00 this morning. Heavy but moving very well in the bus lane. What I did notice was that Beresford place was at a virtual standstill. Drivers who previously turned onto OCB from Bachelors walk, continuing on to the Matt Talbot and having to loop around the Custom House?

While the Quays are freeing up the congestion is moving elsewhere.

Beresford Place is a traffic nightmare, full stop.

The SCR is becoming a traffic black spot (particularly between Leonard's Corner and Kelly's Corner) and is having also having a knock on effect on Rathmines Road Lower in the morning peak.

So while some bus routes have gained, others are now worse off.