Season 7 Episode 5 "Eastwatch" - "Non book readers"

OneOfThem Stumbled

Look, I'm jut going to say it.

This episode was so absolutely stupid.

Randal Tarly being burned was fine, but talk about him taking the black was silly. Logistically it wouldn't have made sense. But this was the least of the problems with Tyrion this episode. His plan not to finish off Cersei before she gets mercenaries makes no sense.

None. Nada. Zip.

Cersei has no reason to help fight the Night's King. She first of all probably doesn't believe he exists. If she does believe he exists she'll be delighted - the lands most immediately in his path are the North (her enemies), and then the Vale/Riverlands (if not her enemies, then certainly not friends). Cersei has been shown to be happy to let Westeros collapse around her rather than give up power. Like the beginning of the season, she's has got no realistic hope of survival, and the season is playing for time by having Team Targarean make stupid plans.

And boy, that plan. That plan! Kidnapping a zombie from an army of zombies. Why? Even if people believe you, if they don't live in the North they are likely to say "not my problem". 7 Kingdom's been ravaged by war, most lords (that are left) haven't got huge supplies of troops that they're eager to get off their hands. The only way to get lords to give up supplies and troops is through obedience, not carting around a zombie. And the only way to get obedience is to have them "BEND THE KNEE", and you can't exactly do that if you're getting into talk of an armistice with Cersei.

What... what....

The kidnapping expedition is being led by the leader of the North, the only thing keeping that vast territory united. His death would lead to a fragmented north that cannot be held by a "Southern Queen".

And then the Brotherhood Without Banners just turning up at Eastwatch. The're just there. And they were arrested apparently. They're just there. F**k it, let's bring Gendry too. Love how they just trudge out into the blizzard without supplies or horses, all warmed by the Hound's badassery.

I'd be tempted to say the Citadel was good, but the spoiler of
"Oh Jon Targarean is the rightful ruler of the 7 kingdoms, not Dany, but even though you were listening well enough to memorise the exact number of steps (or ****s) there are in the Citadel, you just happened not to hear the information about Regger."

I was looking forward to this episode too, after the Spoils of War, which was marvelous television.

Finally, finally that rivalry between lady Sansa and lady Arya can f**k right off. "You always liked nice things". Pass the bucket, the writing's going to make me sick.

lawred2

For me - that episode was ridiculous from start to finish.

It's clear now that the 'entertainment' industry has buried it's claws into GoT. The script writing is poor and the dialogue is seriously flat.

I know we've grown accustomed to teleportation being a thing in GoT. But the distances being travelled in minutes at this stage are becoming discombobulating.

And how did Jaime and Bronn surface about 5 miles from the battle site.. And Jaime still wearing armour. Did they walk along the bottom? I know this is fantasy but come on? Ludicrous escape acts were never a thing.

Going north to capture one of those dead lads to bring to Cersei who couldn't care less... Who is writing this stuff?

And Jon is north of the wall again.. Just like dat... It's all gone a bit Tommy Cooper.

And apparently the hound gets arrested without a fight now.

I'm worried for the rest of the show. I think the industry men are killing the golden goose.

CMOTDibbler

murpho999 wrote: »

I am not stating that they should explain everything but a lot of the content in the show is hard to remember and I do rely on internet forums and websites for some stuff.

For example I would guess 90% of viewers would not have got the joke with Davos's "fewer" content last week. Was very funny but most people will simply not remember every conversation.

Nobody that I spoke to about it last week had copped it.

Same as Sana's note last night, a lot of people would not remember that Cersei made her write that to Robb in Season 1.

I certainly remember that it was LF who said that line. I couldn't actually remember when and to whom, but it was definitely him. And it's even such a LF thing to say too.

It's probably not necessary to know when and why the Sansa letter was written. Arya will undoubtedly confront Sansa with it at some stage and Sansa will explain the context. Although Arya would also remember what a smitten kitten Sansa was around Joffrey. And that she's grown out of that pretty sharpish.

Bacchus

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You probabkly missed it, but there was a looong discussion on this. The TL:DR version is that by ship, the trip could take anything from a week to a fortnight depending on whether they got a favourable wind or not.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here... I get that it can all be reasoned with travel times and a certain amount of artistic licence, hence why so far the increase in pace hasn't bothered me. However, whether it was the huge distance this time getting up to EastWatch (which feels like a remote part of the Wall which itself is as far north as anyone really goes) or that there was a big get-together of all these big characters all of a sudden, I really felt it in this episode that the writers were just unashamedly flooring it to get to that scene as they walked through the gates of the Wall.

CMOTDibbler

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Cersei has no reason to help fight the Night's King. She first of all probably doesn't believe he exists. If she does believe he exists she'll be delighted - the lands most immediately in his path are the North (her enemies), and then the Vale/Riverlands (if not her enemies, then certainly not friends). Cersei has been shown to be happy to let Westeros collapse around her rather than give up power. Like the beginning of the season, she's has got no realistic hope of survival, and the season is playing for time by having Team Targarean make stupid plans.

Do they have to persuade Cersei? If Jaime is persuaded, isn't that enough? Cersei is quite likely to say "phuck them, all the more left for me". But carrying the obvious outcome to its conclusion, an army that's wiped out the north isn't going to stop there.

CMOTDibbler

Bacchus wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're trying to do here... I get that it can all be reasoned with travel times and a certain amount of artistic licence, hence why so far the increase in pace hasn't bothered me. However, whether it was the huge distance this time getting up to EastWatch (which feels like a remote part of the Wall which itself is as far north as anyone really goes) or that there was a big get-together of all these big characters all of a sudden, I really felt it in this episode that the writers were just unashamedly flooring it to get to that scene as they walked through the gates of the Wall.

Fair enough. The distance isn't that massive though, both ports are on the eastern side of Westeros. But people are also complaining about how the BWB arrived there, despite the fact that we've seen them heading that way since the last season.

They could have held back the Eastwatch arrival until the next episode, but I believe that's going to be a very long episode already.

BetsyEllen

This was my favourite episode of the series so far.
Yes a lot was crammed in but so what - it was brilliant!

The only disappointment for me was the start with Bronn and Jamie climbing out of the lake; felt it was a bit of a cop out after last weeks cliff hanger.

The closing scenes with all the boys getting ready to go white walker hunting gave me goose bumps; seeing all those excellent characters together was amazing! It will be interesting to see which of them return though.

I hope Gilly took that book she was reading with her when she left!

It was so good, I'm going to watch it again tonight.

Sansa is starting to annoy me a bit, she as great last season but has been a bit 'meh' to me in this one.
And Arya is annoying me too but she always does, I just don't find her character interesting and her scenes always bore me.
Don't get me started on Littlefinger, give me that dagger and I'll finish him myself.
I hope it something happens next week with Arya, Sansa and Littlefinger to bring them back into the story for me but it seems it may be all about the army of the dead!

Penn

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Do they have to persuade Cersei? If Jaime is persuaded, isn't that enough? Cersei is quite likely to say "phuck them, all the more left for me". But carrying the obvious outcome to its conclusion, an army that's wiped out the north isn't going to stop there.

Persuading Cersei is as much about freeing up Dany to fight the White Walkers as it is to convince Cersei to join the fight. Dany isn't going to help unless a truce is called with Cersei, otherwise Cersei will take advantage of it.

Even seeing a wight might not be enough to make Cersei call a truce (or at least, do so honestly and not as part of a plan) because she's power mad. But from Jon's perspective, it's the best chance they have to bring all the living together to fight the dead. Otherwise Cersei & Dany will be fighting each other with most of the armies of Westeros, and all Jon will have is a bunch of Northeners, Wildlings and Dragonglass.

It's also why Dany isn't risking using a dragon to fly north of the Wall and grab a wight and fly out. She can't risk it while she and Cersei are still at war.

CMOTDibbler

Penn wrote: »

Persuading Cersei is as much about freeing up Dany to fight the White Walkers as it is to convince Cersei to join the fight. Dany isn't going to help unless a truce is called with Cersei, otherwise Cersei will take advantage of it.

Even seeing a wight might not be enough to make Cersei call a truce (or at least, do so honestly and not as part of a plan) because she's power mad. But from Jon's perspective, it's the best chance they have to bring all the living together to fight the dead. Otherwise Cersei & Dany will be fighting each other with most of the armies of Westeros, and all Jon will have is a bunch of Northeners, Wildlings and Dragonglass.

It's also why Dany isn't risking using a dragon to fly north of the Wall and grab a wight and fly out. She can't risk it while she and Cersei are still at war.

Good point. I was more thinking of Jaime's command of their army. It's possibly a weakness of Cersei's. She may be cunning and ruthless, but if Jaime commands the army to march north, is she going to be able to stop him?

She absolutely will play along in bad faith. It's in her nature, like the old fable of the scorpion and the frog.

marcus001

I don't know why they don't just demand a group of Maesters from the Citadel travel up to Winterfell and the Wall to speak to people there and get first hand accounts rather than risking the King of North on a suicide mission.

Dravokivich

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Good point. I was more thinking of Jaime's command of their army. It's possibly a weakness of Cersei's. She may be cunning and ruthless, but if Jaime commands the army to march north, is she going to be able to stop him?

She absolutely will play along in bad faith. It's in her nature, like the old fable of the scorpion and the frog.

She doesn't have to stop him, just the army.

I don't think she'll be one for any kind of truce.

marcus001

I think Cersei and Dany will both agree to a truce. Cersei needs a time to rebuild her army. Euron on the other hand is a wild card. I think they'll agree to a truce and then Euron will break it.

Pugzilla

Cersei mentioned to Jaime about defeating their enemies like their father did (Red Wedding).
That possibly implies setting up a trap when she meets Daenarys.
Euron could be involved in it.

expectationlost

Penn wrote: »

Dany's still not fully behind Jon's mission or the fight against the White Walkers. She's clearly willing to help him to an extent, even letting Jorah go off with him, but Dany's not going to risk riding a dragon north of the Wall. Not when full-blown war against Cersei is on the cards, and that's Dany's priority.

She believes Jon. But she's only looking as far as King's Landing, at least until some sort of truce with Cersei is agreed to. Otherwise, Dany wants to take the throne, and then deal with the White Walkers later.

but she is also fallling in love with him and is clearly concerned for his safety, she so concerned for safety for something she doesn't think is a threat?, if as Jon later says he has to convince both Queens surely he should say, fly up there it will only take you a few hours and have a look for yourself.

pickarooney

GBX wrote: »

Or Wun Wun

Beric will die and get resurrected by the night long but as he was already a zombie he'll become a human.

I just don't get this plan at all. Even if they are to pull it off, what is Cersei supposed to think? She has her own zombie maker so why would this impress her?

homerun_homer

What is the crack with the wights getting beyond the wall? Benjen couldn't pass because of the magic. In season 1 a reanimated corpse attacked Mormont and Jon.
So, if they capture a wight or a white walker, can it pass the wall while it is still standing and the magic unbroken, or would it get south and be actually dead?

Missandei

*SPOILERS*

People who have looked at the L+R=J theory will know what I'm talking about!!!

lawred2

what's with the army of the dead travelling a glacial speeds?

Jon can traverse Westeros in moments... and these lads seem to get no closer to the wall.

flazio

GBX wrote: »

Or Wun Wun

Or Hodor

challengemaster

pickarooney wrote: »

I just don't get this plan at all. Even if they are to pull it off, what is Cersei supposed to think? She has her own zombie maker so why would this impress her?

It's not supposed to impress her, it's supposed to convince her that the army of the undead is real and not a fairytale just for kids. At the minute she doesn't believe its real. But with proof, Dany/Tyrion want to convince her to put the war for the throne on hold, send their resources north and commit fully to fighting the undead

CMOTDibbler

lawred2 wrote: »

what's with the army of the dead travelling a glacial speeds?

Jon can traverse Westeros in moments... and these lads seem to get no closer to to wall.

They're in gathering mode is how I took it. The north is massive. Zombies are slow. Corpses are everywhere. Including animals as well.

Missandei

marcus001 wrote: »

I think Cersei and Dany will both agree to a truce. Cersei needs a time to rebuild her army. Euron on the other hand is a wild card. I think they'll agree to a truce and then Euron will break it.

Euron is out of control and all he wants is power. I agree with your theory but I'm not so sure that Cersei will keep her word either. She is her fathers daughter, after all.

Agricola

You have to feel sorry for Jorah. Seven seasons of history with Dany, he's been to hell and back for her and what's his reward when he finally gets back....... to see her drooling all over Jon Snow!

Pacing is ridiculous now. Really spoiling all the great building work that was done in previous years. No reason why this season can't be 10 episodes, theres plenty of headroom to slow things down a bit. For Jon to be at Dragonstone at the beginning of the ep and then heading beyond the wall at the end is just too rushed. Similarly Gendry. From nowhere to being part of the group going North in one episode??

Arya and Sansa conflict feels too contrived. Admittedly they weren't the closest sisters in S1 but after all has happened to them and their family, this cold, detached relationship after the reunion feels wrong. You'd have to hope that Arya will see through it and the storyline will lead to the downfall of Littlefinger, otherwise it will seem very forced.
Since things have diverged from the books, the writing is going awry definitely.

Knex*

lawred2 wrote: »

For me - that episode was ridiculous from start to finish.

It's clear now that the 'entertainment' industry has buried it's claws into GoT. The script writing is poor and the dialogue is seriously flat.

I know we've grown accustomed to teleportation being a thing in GoT. But the distances being travelled in minutes at this stage are becoming discombobulating.

And how did Jaime and Bronn surface about 5 miles from the battle site.. And Jaime still wearing armour. Did they walk along the bottom? I know this is fantasy but come on? Ludicrous escape acts were never a thing.

Going north to capture one of those dead lads to bring to Cersei who couldn't care less... Who is writing this stuff?

And Jon is north of the wall again.. Just like dat... It's all gone a bit Tommy Cooper.

And apparently the hound gets arrested without a fight now.

I'm worried for the rest of the show. I think the industry men are killing the golden goose.

I don't know what to make of the episode, and this season in general. I find myself rolling my eyes and muttering, "Oh for **** sake", whereas that never happened to me in previous seasons.

Show seems cheapened, or a lot more cheesy even in terms of its music, dialogue and scene structures. Like the music that belted out when Jon was looking at the dragon flying overhead. Some of the beauty about GoT is that it avoided all the cliched stuff, and yet this season it seems to be running headlong into it.

The pacing of the show is just all over the place. You can tell the directors want to just get the story done with.

Kirby

Missandei wrote: »

*SPOILERS*

People who have looked at the L+R=J theory will know what I'm talking about!!!

That stopped becoming a theory a long time ago. I don't know how more obvious the show could make it? I mean they literally told us.

Penn

homerun_homer wrote: »

What is the crack with the wights getting beyond the wall? Benjen couldn't pass because of the magic. In season 1 a reanimated corpse attacked Mormont and Jon.
So, if they capture a wight or a white walker, can it pass the wall while it is still standing and the magic unbroken, or would it get south and be actually dead?

I asked same earlier. It seems most likely that the wights can pass the wall, but the White Walkers (and Benjen due to whatever happened him) can't due to whatever magic was built into the Wall. So it's possible Jon et al could capture a wight and bring it through the wall.

It would also explain why the Night King hasn't launched his attack yet and is waiting North of the Wall. The wights might be able to get through, but he and the white walkers can't.

benny79

Penn wrote: »

I asked same earlier. It seems most likely that the wights can pass the wall, but the White Walkers (and Benjen due to whatever happened him) can't due to whatever magic was built into the Wall. So it's possible Jon et al could capture a wight and bring it through the wall.

It would also explain why the Night King hasn't launched his attack yet and is waiting North of the Wall. The wights might be able to get through, but he and the white walkers can't.

My theory is if they can't pass the wall, who's to say they cant go around it as in the ocean! (sure how can there be a war with them if they cant pass the wall!) plus I feel the reason they are so slow is they are waiting for winter to come seems to me they can only travel in winter as I cant picture them strolling around Kings Langon on a summers evening! plus all the references to winter is coming throughout the whole thing!

Look I love GOT the only thing I thought that was ridiculous so far was the opening scene with jaime & bronn you mean to tell me they swam about 2 miles especially Jamie with all that armour! Thats ridiculous they jumped in right in front of Danny she didnt capture or chase them and hasn't evening mentioned it!

I've read over all 15 pages and can't believe that there's not much mentioned about it apart from 1 or 2. Considering it was the talk of last weeks episode!

Squeeonline

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I recognised the line straight away. It's one of little fingers best exchanges with another character. Why does everything need to be explained to people.

Isn't this because it was shown in the opening refresher bit? Otherwise I might not have caught it.

Ping Chow Chi

The dragons head did come between Danny and Jamie obscuring her view, but probably not Tyrion's, which is why he knew that they were alive.  Maybe there is a deleted scene where Tyrion tells Danny that he saw Jamie leap into the water before the flames hit him, but by the time Tyrion mentions this to Danny, Jamie has long gone.

Missandei

Kirby wrote: »

That stopped becoming a theory a long time ago. I don't know how more obvious the show could make it? I mean they literally told us.

I know that, but now they have written proof and not just Brans information on it.

Missandei

Kirby wrote: »

That stopped becoming a theory a long time ago. I don't know how more obvious the show could make it? I mean they literally told us.

Also, I reckon that Martell girl Cersei poisoned will turn into a White Walker before Jon and the others return with one.

corkie

Penn wrote: »

I asked same earlier. It seems most likely that the wights can pass the wall, but the White Walkers (and Benjen due to whatever happened him) can't due to whatever magic was built into the Wall. So it's possible Jon et al could capture a wight and bring it through the wall.

It would also explain why the Night King hasn't launched his attack yet and is waiting North of the Wall. The wights might be able to get through, but he and the white walkers can't.

benny79 wrote: »

My theory is if they can't pass the wall, who's to say they cant go around it as in the ocean! (sure how can there be a war with them if they cant pass the wall!) plus I feel the reason they are so slow is they are waiting for winter to come seems to me they can only travel in winter as I cant picture them strolling around Kings Langon on a summers evening! plus all the references to winter is coming throughout the whole thing!

Look I love GOT the only thing I thought that was ridiculous so far was the opening scene with jaime & bronn you mean to tell me they swam about 2 miles especially Jamie with all that armour! Thats ridiculous they jumped in right in front of Danny she didnt capture or chase them and hasn't evening mentioned it!

I've read over all 15 pages and can't believe that there's not much mentioned about it apart from 1 or 2. Considering it was the talk of last weeks episode!

Read a theory some where that in the opening credits: -

..... there is a scene where the Ocean is frozen near eastwatch and once that happens, the army of the dead will be able to walk around the wall! Not frozen in the latest episode, but in prior episodes it was!

Mitch Connor

corkie wrote: »

Read a theory some where that in the opening credits: -

..... there is a scene where the Ocean is frozen near eastwatch and once that happens, the army of the dead will be able to walk around the wall!

That was shown to be fog, not forst/ice, i believe.

prawnsambo

corkie wrote: »

Read a theory some where that in the opening credits: -

..... there is a scene where the Ocean is frozen near eastwatch and once that happens, the army of the dead will be able to walk around the wall!

That's been dismissed as fog. Jon's ship wouldn't have got through if that were ice.

BetsyEllen

I have a question and it may be a stupid one.

BUT...Jon Snow always says to burn the dead. In case of it turning into an 'undead'.

There were people killed by the Dothraki that were not burnt by Drogon...would it not be easier to get hold of a body and let it 'turn' instead of travelling North to capture a walker?

prawnsambo

BetsyEllen wrote: »

I have a question and it may be a stupid one.

BUT...Jon Snow always says to burn the dead. In case of it turning into an 'undead'.

There were people killed by the Dothraki that were not burnt by Drogon...would it not be easier to get hold of a body and let it 'turn' instead of travelling North to capture a walker?

That's not how it works. They either have to be killed by a wight or resurrected by a white walker.

GavRedKing

BetsyEllen wrote: »

I have a question and it may be a stupid one.

BUT...Jon Snow always says to burn the dead. In case of it turning into an 'undead'.

There were people killed by the Dothraki that were not burnt by Drogon...would it not be easier to get hold of a body and let it 'turn' instead of travelling North to capture a walker?

That was only when Jon was at the Wall or north of it, the night king cant turn people from the south, when hes behind the wall, as far as we know.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Knex. wrote: »

I don't know what to make of the episode, and this season in general. I find myself rolling my eyes and muttering, "Oh for **** sake", whereas that never happened to me in previous seasons.

Show seems cheapened, or a lot more cheesy even in terms of its music, dialogue and scene structures. Like the music that belted out when Jon was looking at the dragon flying overhead. Some of the beauty about GoT is that it avoided all the cliched stuff, and yet this season it seems to be running headlong into it.

The pacing of the show is just all over the place. You can tell the directors want to just get the story done with.

Jon to be crowned in ruins of Red Keep in couple of episodes' time after marrying Dany, defeating the Nights King and everybody celebrating after Jamie kills Cersei, and Theon kills Euron. Also Sam marries Gilly and claims the Reach as the heir to both Tyrell and Tarly lands.

Some men take their writing more seriously than others

Oh btw, that's not spoilers, just my predictions, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's how it plays out. Yuck.

Missandei

GavRedKing wrote: »

as far as we know.

yep

AlmightyCushion

benny79 wrote: »

My theory is if they can't pass the wall, who's to say they cant go around it as in the ocean! (sure how can there be a war with them if they cant pass the wall!) plus I feel the reason they are so slow is they are waiting for winter to come seems to me they can only travel in winter as I cant picture them strolling around Kings Langon on a summers evening! plus all the references to winter is coming throughout the whole thing!

I really hope that doesn't happen. They built a big, fúck off wall made of ice and magic to keep them out and it turns out they can just walk around it. Seems a bit of a cheap way for the white walkers to overcome it.

Santan

They should have just had the hound say after walking through the gate " so what are we some kind of c##ting suicide squad

Bigbagofcans

I loved that the finishing credits had the eerie and brilliant White Walkers theme music playing.

Bacchus

Missandei wrote: »

Also, I reckon that Martell girl Cersei poisoned will turn into a White Walker before Jon and the others return with one.

That's not how it works though. I think you need to be killed by a Wight and/or raised by a White Walker to turn into a wight. The rules aren't exactly clear but if anyone could just turn, there'd be wights all over the place.

BetsyEllen

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's not how it works. They either have to be killed by a wight or resurrected by a white walker.

GavRedKing wrote: »

That was only when Jon was at the Wall or north of it, the night king cant turn people from the south, when hes behind the wall, as far as we know.

Bacchus wrote: »

That's not how it works though. I think you need to be killed by a Wight and/or raised by a White Walker to turn into a wight. The rules aren't exactly clear but if anyone could just turn, there'd be wights all over the place.

Thank you, I wasn't quite sure

challengemaster

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I really hope that doesn't happen. They built a big, fúck off wall made of ice and magic to keep them out and it turns out they can just walk around it. Seems a bit of a cheap way for the white walkers to overcome it.

Well.. it wouldn't be that much of a stretch from reality. The very same is true of the great wall of China... :pac:

degrassinoel

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

I loved that the finishing credits had the eerie and brilliant White Walkers theme music playing.

I wanted this music at the end credits

https://youtu.be/yulmgTcGLZw

Next week's is gonna be awesome!

Varik

Mokuba wrote: »

All 3.

Dany, Rhaegar and Viserys parents (Mad King Aerys and Rhaella) were also brother and sister. I didn't mention Viserys earlier as he isn't relevant to the story anymore.

They have been inbreeding for generations to preserve the bloodline.

So it's pretty much custom and I'm sure there'll be somebody to point it out should the simmering between Jon and Dany boil over before the series end.

Edit - Didn't see your question about what happened to Rhaella. She died giving birth to Dany on Dragonstone.

Someone on reddit put up how valyrian dany is, she's only 1/8.

Jon would be 1/16.

GavRedKing

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I really hope that doesn't happen. They built a big, fúck off wall made of ice and magic to keep them out and it turns out they can just walk around it. Seems a bit of a cheap way for the white walkers to overcome it.

That would be a huge cop out if they just walk to the wall, wait until the sea freezes and then just stroll around it.

CMOTDibbler

Viewing figures are continuing to rise. This episode hit 10.72 million; almost half a million more than last week's.

DeadHand

Lemlin wrote: »

Littlefinger must be on borrowed time though. Met him a couple of weeks ago in Ikea - a Hollywood actor isn't shopping there unless he's out of work!

Was he looking for a ladder?