Season 7 Episode 5 "Eastwatch" - "Book readers"

RobbingBandit

I think it's a game of cat vs cat for Littlefinger and Arya, she doesn't seem to be aware of just how cunning he is he is unaware of how ruthless and cut throat she is. I also think Arya has been thrown off her hunt for vengeance by the little family reconciliation she is in at the moment, Littlefinger has Sansa in his sights which maybe his downfall as her mother was at Riverrun for him when he over reached in trying for her too.

How do i paste a GIF?

CMOTDibbler

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

How do i paste a GIF?

Use the image tool in the toolbar. This one:

Enter the URL of the image in the pop-up box.

Danjamin1

Why didn't they bring any horses north of the wall?

CMOTDibbler

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Why didn't they bring any horses north of the wall?

Probably don't have any in Eastwatch. It's manned by wildlings who would have seen a horse and thought "Mmmm fooood".

blackwhite

ardinn wrote: »

It does actually - Its based on a 20 week run of 1 eisode per day, 5 days a week which apparently is the going golden rule - 20 weeks is a significant number in relation to broadcasting for some reason.

It's guideline/rule of thumb - not a hard and fast absolute rule that means you make 100 episodes and automatically get handed a cheque.


The 100-episode rule of thumb is generally for 30-min episode sitcoms or serial dramas that don't have massive widespread popularity. The 20x5 block is seen as a selling point to make it easier to distribute a moderately popular show(and 88 shows is actually more often seen as the number these days) - but a show that is immensely popular will normally hit syndication regardless of the number of episodes.

But as said HBO rarely syndicate their most popular shows - they sell them to subscription based streaming services or keep them for their own pay-tv/online services - so it's possibly a moot point anyway.

Two of the few shows that HBO actually did syndicate were Sex and the City & Entourage - with 94 and 96 episodes respectively.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Nerdlingr

Bit of a random question but why are there fewer episodes this season? what is /was the exact reasoning for it? Its the bigest show in the world...surely the network would be able to finance an extra two episode... it cant be money was the issue???
I ask because everything seems so rushed.... especially the meeting of Tyrion and Jamie...this should have been a heartbreaking scene of two brothers separated by war and family coming face to face. The last time they saw each other Jamie was helping Tyrion escape after killing his father...it should be a massive scene, one of the major ones, the two Lannister brothers back together. plus Jamie knows Tyrion is innocent of killing Joffrey... It should be a highly charged emotional reunion...And what do we get? two minutes max. Very very disappointing. And cersei know Tyrion is back in Kings Landing but doesnt take him prisoner?? come on. There's so much wrong with the show now that all the little intricate details of the previous seasons have been swept off the table. Its a totally different show now to what it was in the past, it seems to be driven by plot rather than character now and its all the lesser for it.
I'll still watch it till the end but i think maybe it jumped the shark for me a bit with this episode.

CMOTDibbler

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I ask because everything seems so rushed.... especially the meeting of Tyrion and Jamie...this should have been a heartbreaking scene of two brothers separated by war and family coming face to face. The last time they saw each other Jamie was helping Tyrion escape after killing his father...it should be a massive scene, one of the major ones, the two Lannister brothers back together. plus Jamie knows Tyrion is innocent of killing Joffrey... It should be a highly charged emotional reunion...And what do we get? two minutes max. Very very disappointing.

I thought that was a great scene. Not sure how dragging it out would have made it better. It could possibly have lost its power by being diluted. What more could they have said to each other? Have an argument about the rights and wrongs of killing Tywin? Or Tyrion bleating about the unfairness of being a dwarf; he actually started to do that and was cut off thankfully.

Grudaire

So I was wondering if Sam had been deliberately at the copying work to find the annulment. And really it's a convoluted way for the arch Maester to influence Westeros.

Does anyone know of the achmaester is aware of Jon's legitimacy and claim to the throne, and if so anyone know why he can't just send out a raven himself instead of trying to set Sam up to do it?

Nerdlingr

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I thought that was a great scene. Not sure how dragging it out would have made it better. It could possibly have lost its power by being diluted. What more could they have said to each other? Have an argument about the rights and wrongs of killing Tywin? Or Tyrion bleating about the unfairness of being a dwarf; he actually started to do that and was cut off thankfully.

Who mentioned dragging it out? The writing has been poor this year so i guess they didnt trust themselves or weren't able to come up with a decent scene so, as you say, they went back to the tired trope of Tyrion and his 'my father hates me line'. ... to which i was also glad Jamie cut him off. There could have been so much more to their meeting. Jamie obviously loves Tyrion but they're on opposite sides. The scene seemed to be over too quick for me. It reminded me of the Tyrion and Oberyn Martell "I will be your champion" scene and how much resonance that had and how this could have been the same. Here we had two brothers cut off in their prime because the show has to rush the seven samurai up to the wall up north.

CMOTDibbler

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Who mentioned dragging it out? The writing has been poor this year so i guess they didnt trust themselves or weren't able to come up with a decent scene so, as you say, they went back to the tired trope of Tyrion and his 'my father hates me line'. ... to which i was also glad Jamie cut him off. There could have been so much more to their meeting. Jamie obviously loves Tyrion but they're on opposite sides. The scene seemed to be over too quick for me. It reminded me of the Tyrion and Oberyn Martell "I will be your champion" scene and how much resonance that had and how this could have been the same. Here we had two brothers cut off in their prime because the show has to rush the seven samurai up to the wall up north.

I don't know. Perhaps you saying it was two minutes max had me thinking you wanted it longer.

Nerdlingr

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't know. Perhaps you saying it was two minutes max had me thinking you wanted it longer.

I did. But I didn't want it 'dragged out' either. :P .Just the best it could be. Which it wasn't imo.

CMOTDibbler

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I did. But I didn't want it 'dragged out' either. :P .Just the best it could be. Which it wasn't imo.

Yeah, I get it.

But to me it was pretty much spot on. They're on opposite sides of a war, so they wouldn't be keen on giving anything away either. There will be further meetings no doubt, when and if a wight gets captured. Perhaps Jaime might even desert Cersei if he feels she's being a dick about the real threat. Too much interaction between them at this stage might give the game away if that were to happen in the future.

Daith

They're getting a wight so Cersei will call a truce? Are they all mad?

Frankie5Angels

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Worse:

There could be another Aegon about.

Haven't read the rest of the thread after this, but I wondered where this fella was. This may have been mentioned, but could it be

Jon was named Aegon by R+L, but Ned changed it up

and that's how they'll transition it from the books to the tv.

CMOTDibbler

Frankie5Angels wrote: »

Haven't read the rest of the thread after this, but I wondered where this fella was. This may have been mentioned, but could it be

Jon was named Aegon by R+L, but Ned changed it up

and that's how they'll transition it from the books to the tv.

I would think so.

turnikett1

I'm kinda ruining it for myself the more I read in-depth discussion and criticism of Season 7. But feck it, the plot holes and terrible pacing can't just be dismissed for the sake of not wanting to ruin it.

What was the point of the whole Jaime drowning in a lake thing? Let's take out the ridiculous depth of the lake's shoreline for a second. Jaime almost kills himself, and we're left wondering is he actually dead, is he gonna be kept prisoner. But instead, the miraculous escape happens and he's back in KL with Cersei, he's still devoted to her. His character and outlook are unchanged. What was the point of that scene then other than cheap drama and an easy cliffhanger? He could've observed the battle from a hill, or even on the battlefield before escaping, and the exact same result would've occurred = back in KL, still devoted to Cersei. Pointless, and cheap.

Jorah and greyscale? He's dismissed by Dany, comes back with Tyrion, gets greyscale, is dismissed again. Greyscale is cured (and no one seems to care or ask Sam about how he did it), Jorah shoots back to Dany, and is in her service again. What was the goddamn point of him contracting the disease and being quarantined in the first place? Perhaps in the books something will change, but in the show, it is pointless. Presumably the writers didn't want to introduce a whole new arc or story or whatever and opted for a quick magic fix. Oh yeah, now he's at the Wall. Kidnapping wights.

Why does nobody CARE about the fact that Cersei essentially committed regicide, killed hundreds of innocents and just strolled to the Iron Throne with no ONE seeming to give a fiddle? In addition to destroying an ancient and historical site of particular religious significance. Blasphemy, essentially. If this happened in any time period, any epoch, there would be civil unrest. However as Hotpie points out it's basically common knowledge and again not a single commoner in Westeros, or anyone in Cersei's court, seems to really mind. Also, Kevan Lannister anyone? No? Ok.

The teleportation. I know, it's always existed, but it existed within the bounds of reason. In Season 1 we see a lot of "teleporting", Catelyn going from Winterfell to KL and back etc, but this all happened during times of peace, where courtroom intrigue aside, there was nothing really going on. In Season 7 however we're expected to believe that while Jon and co are gallivanting all over Westeros with their brilliant "plan" - which will take months, in theory - Dany is just gonna sit in Dragonstone twiddling her thumbs. I dunno, maybe Dany will say "f**k it" and just go for KL while Jon is away, which I would be happy with, but this is just one example of awful pacing this season.

I understand the need for a quicker succession of events given it's the climax but going from Dany and co. to making a plan about white walkers to Tyrion and Davis arriving in Kings Landing to Tyrion meeting Jaime to Gendry meeting Jon to Mormont's reunion then meeting up with the Hound again for everyone to go on an adventure beyond the Wall in one episode is just too much for my tastes. Still boggles me why we only have 7 episodes this season and not the regular 10. An extra 3 episodes to space things out a bit could've made a world of difference. I might be a called a "comic book store guy nerd" or whatever (as someone eloquently said to someone else a few pages back) but this was one of the worst episodes ever and season 7, the more I think about it (though I liked EP4, magic lake aside), is down there among the worst. Right there alongside Season 5 and the butchery of the Dorne storyline. I almost exclusively read and watch factual books/TV, such as history and politics, so it's pretty uncommon for me to be so emotionally invested into a fictitious story. But I am. Ever since I read the first book in 2012 I've been hooked. I love the world GRRM has created, I love the characters, the stories, the emotions, the ups and downs, the human aspect of everything, how personal it can be, how witty, clever and how dark it all is. So for this to be the end product is preeeeetty disappointing. I'm not saying it's D&D's fault, as I said before I think GRRM f**ked up by taking so long to write WoW and leaving them hanging (though some of the p*ss poor writing cannot be excused, sorry). But, yeah... It's a kind of sad end to A Song of Ice and Fire, one of the most wonderful pieces of literature I've read. I can only hope the books do eventually get written and that they are leagues ahead of the TV show. Can't say I'm really counting the days until the next episode anymore.

Just how I feel anyway, rant over.

prawnsambo

turnikett1 wrote: »

The teleportation. I know, it's always existed, but it existed within the bounds of reason. In Season 1 we see a lot of "teleporting", Catelyn going from Winterfell to KL and back etc, but this all happened during times of peace, where courtroom intrigue aside, there was nothing really going on. In Season 7 however we're expected to believe that while Jon and co are gallivanting all over Westeros with their brilliant "plan" - which will take months, in theory - Dany is just gonna sit in Dragonstone twiddling her thumbs. I dunno, maybe Dany will say "f**k it" and just go for KL while Jon is away, which I would be happy with, but this is just one example of awful pacing this season.

Somebody actually took the trouble to work it out a page ago.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

No. Maybe 1500 at the most. I use the length of the wall (300 miles) as a scale. Eight or nine days is very conservative, based on a speed of about 4 knots. Six to eight knots can be acheived in favourable winds. We're definitely not talking about months. A couple of weeks at most. But also quite possibly done in ten or eleven days. People forget that ships sail 24 hours a day.

So a couple of weeks at most to get to the wall. Not months. They're not in a row boat.

turnikett1

prawnsambo wrote: »

Somebody actually took the trouble to work it out a page ago.


So a couple of weeks at most to get to the wall. Not months. They're not in a row boat.

Point still stands. Is Dany just gonna pace up and down in the throne room for a couple of weeks while Cersei recuperates? Just not buying it. Before anyone pulls out the "Why would you want to have episodes of boring travel scenes?" card that's not the issue, it's the implications of the time travel. Still don't understand how Euron just breezes past Dany en route to KL.

I just feel the dominoes switch, the climax button, has been pressed too soon. We went from 6 season of build up to 1 season of lightning quick events at the cost of logic and quality.

Savage Tyrant

You'd have also thought that Jon would have sent a raven back to Winterfell telling Sansa and the northern lords his plan. The lords might be pleased he was back in the North and stop the obvious insurrection that is being signposted and maybe even have them send some reinforcements to meet them at the wall.
It seems like an obvious move but that wouldn't fit the Sansa/Litterfinger story.
Small plot holes like this grate me a little.

prawnsambo

turnikett1 wrote: »

Point still stands. Is Dany just gonna pace up and down in the throne room for a couple of weeks while Cersei recuperates? Just not buying it.

It doesn't really. You were saying it wasn't in the bounds of reason to have Dany hanging around for months and it's now equally unreasonable whan that timescale is reduced to a couple of weeks?

Plus she has armies to move. The unsullied can now head back to Dragonstone since there's no Lannister army in The Reach to stop them and the Dothraki are there to cover their retreat if needed.

turnikett1

prawnsambo wrote: »

It doesn't really. You were saying it wasn't in the bounds of reason to have Dany hanging around for months and it's now equally unreasonable whan that timescale is reduced to a couple of weeks?

Plus she has armies to move. The unsullied can now head back to Dragonstone since there's no Lannister army in The Reach to stop them and the Dothraki are there to cover their retreat if needed.

She doesn't need the Unsullied, they'd probably be better off garrisoning Casterly Rock anyways. The Lannister army is destroyed, evidenced by the fact that Cersei is talking about hiring mercenaries. Why would Dany just sit there and wait when she, as she says so herself, has 3 dragons and a massive Dothraki horde waiting to let rip? Why does she need a couple of weeks to plan (what exactly? her options are very straightforward) and move armies when her main army is outside KL, and she and her dragons are not far?

.......

This post has been deleted.

turnikett1

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I guess I meant to what end did that scene serve, how did it advance Jaime as a character and how did it advance the Cersei-Jaime-Dany plot? As I say, you could've had Jaime loiter around the battlefield, and almost get killed by some other means, then have him go back to KL. Either way the result is the same, he arrives back in KL and is still devoted to Cersei. Ok perhaps his character isn't 100% the same, he's been having second thoughts on Cersei since Olenna and has seen the dragons but ultimately as the last episode suggests he is still in the service of Cersei. I wouldn't have minded the lake thing if he had been taken prisoner. I was actually really looking forward to him being a prisoner and the ensuing dynamic and the potential hostage situation, but when you take that out of it and just have him go back to KL as normal it just seems pointless.

prawnsambo

turnikett1 wrote: »

She doesn't need the Unsullied, they'd probably be better off garrisoning Casterly Rock anyways. The Lannister army is destroyed, evidenced by the fact that Cersei is talking about hiring mercenaries. Why would Dany just sit there and wait when she, as she says so herself, has 3 dragons and a massive Dothraki horde waiting to let rip? Why does she need a couple of weeks to plan (what exactly? her options are very straightforward) and move armies when her main army is outside KL, and she and her dragons are not far?

She doesn't need Casterly Rock. It was only ever an attack to reduce the Lannister army and hurt the Lannisters. Since it turned out to be something of a Trojan Horse, has no food stores and the Lannister army was elsewhere (and now a good chunk of it is crispy), the unsullied staying there is pointless.

And why does Dany need to rush in? She has destroyed a good chunk of the food destined for KL, she has control of the Reach and also could use her dragons to destroy any shipping coming into Blackwater bay. The stated strategy was to besiege KL and force Cersei's surrender. Having part of your army in a useless castle would be pretty pointless.

Also her main army is actually Dothraki. Not really the kind of army you can use to storm a castle. They're cavalry.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Paddy Cow wrote: »

It would be really disappointing if Arya is as stupid as LF thinks she is.

You would be too if you spent a whole season getting hit in the head by a quarterstaff. Although the process also apparently teaches you how to pick locks.

prawnsambo

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

You would be too if you spent a whole season getting hit in the head by a quarterstaff. Although the process also apparently teaches you how to pick locks.

You're not much of an assassin if you're defeated by a lock.

Nerdlingr

The only reason Jaime goes in the lake is for dramatic effect. Nothing else. It doesn't serve the story, it doesn't serve the character, it doesn't serve anything other than the show. They needed a TV cliff hanger after the battle, this was it. Everything serves the show now. Its the same reason Jamie and Bronn basically walk back to KL, why the seven go beyond the wall...there's no reasoning behind a lot of the things that are happening in the show now. Before the characters actions moved the plot forward, now the plot is moving the characters forward.... it seems to be : "we have to get to the end, lets set things up so that it all moves forward in the allocated timescale.. no matter how ludicrous the characters actions/ or plot-holes become".

CMOTDibbler

turnikett1 wrote: »

What was the point of the whole Jaime drowning in a lake thing? Let's take out the ridiculous depth of the lake's shoreline for a second. Jaime almost kills himself, and we're left wondering is he actually dead, is he gonna be kept prisoner. But instead, the miraculous escape happens and he's back in KL with Cersei, he's still devoted to her. His character and outlook are unchanged. What was the point of that scene then other than cheap drama and an easy cliffhanger? He could've observed the battle from a hill, or even on the battlefield before escaping, and the exact same result would've occurred = back in KL, still devoted to Cersei. Pointless, and cheap.

Not sure why getting almost drowned in a lake or not should affect his devotion to Cersei. Why would you expect that? Yes it was drama, though I suspect it wasn't that cheap. . If anything, it showed Jaime is still a warrior at heart and won't skulk in the rear during a battle.

turnikett1 wrote: »

Jorah and greyscale? He's dismissed by Dany, comes back with Tyrion, gets greyscale, is dismissed again. Greyscale is cured (and no one seems to care or ask Sam about how he did it), Jorah shoots back to Dany, and is in her service again. What was the goddamn point of him contracting the disease and being quarantined in the first place? Perhaps in the books something will change, but in the show, it is pointless. Presumably the writers didn't want to introduce a whole new arc or story or whatever and opted for a quick magic fix. Oh yeah, now he's at the Wall. Kidnapping wights.

He clearly discussed the method with ArchMaester Ebron before he did it and later was asked how he'd succeeded when so many others had failed. Don't you remember this? Also, with Jorah gone, Tyrion becomes hand of the Queen.

turnikett1 wrote: »

Why does nobody CARE about the fact that Cersei essentially committed regicide, killed hundreds of innocents and just strolled to the Iron Throne with no ONE seeming to give a fiddle? In addition to destroying an ancient and historical site of particular religious significance. Blasphemy, essentially. If this happened in any time period, any epoch, there would be civil unrest. However as Hotpie points out it's basically common knowledge and again not a single commoner in Westeros, or anyone in Cersei's court, seems to really mind. Also, Kevan Lannister anyone? No? Ok.

Well Olenna Tyrrell cared...

turnikett1 wrote: »

The teleportation. I know, it's always existed, but it existed within the bounds of reason. In Season 1 we see a lot of "teleporting", Catelyn going from Winterfell to KL and back etc, but this all happened during times of peace, where courtroom intrigue aside, there was nothing really going on. In Season 7 however we're expected to believe that while Jon and co are gallivanting all over Westeros with their brilliant "plan" - which will take months, in theory - Dany is just gonna sit in Dragonstone twiddling her thumbs. I dunno, maybe Dany will say "f**k it" and just go for KL while Jon is away, which I would be happy with, but this is just one example of awful pacing this season.

And as others have pointed out, it won't take months. And Dany wants to besiege KL, not burn it down with everyone in it.

Liam O

Literally off the top of my head would smarter writing not have been to have Jaime captured and used for negotiating the armistice and Davos picks up Gendry while delivering him? The whole wight capturing mission is pure nonsense as was Jaime and Bronn's swim.

Another week and another major house obliterated. Is there even people in the Reach, Riverlands and Dorne anymore? Do they even exist on the map? Would make the teleportation make more sense.

CMOTDibbler

Liam O wrote: »

Literally off the top of my head would smarter writing not have been to have Jaime captured and used for negotiating the armistice and Davos picks up Gendry while delivering him? The whole wight capturing mission is pure nonsense as was Jaime and Bronn's swim.

I had thought that too. But then it occurred to me that Jaime may be needed to rebel against Cersei in some way. I just feel that's where he's headed as a character.

maudgonner

Liam O wrote: »

Literally off the top of my head would smarter writing not have been to have Jaime captured and used for negotiating the armistice and Davos picks up Gendry while delivering him? The whole wight capturing mission is pure nonsense as was Jaime and Bronn's swim.

I think having Jamie being a POW again would have been too similar to previous seasons. His escape was a bit far fetched but they needed to get him out of there somehow. I don't think Jamie could have sat back and watched the battle from a distance (as was suggested up thread), letting others, Bronn in particular, do the fighting for him. You want him to be a likeable character and his courage is a big part of that. I think Jamie will end up being a hero, not a pawn used in negotiations.

Dave_The_Sheep

maudgonner wrote: »

I think having Jamie being a POW again would have been too similar to previous seasons. His escape was a bit far fetched but they needed to get him out of there somehow. I don't think Jamie could have sat back and watched the battle from a distance (as was suggested up thread), letting others, Bronn in particular, do the fighting for him. You want him to be a likeable character and his courage is a big part of that. I think Jamie will end up being a hero, not a pawn used in negotiations.

Agreed, it's in his nature to charge Drogon at the end of the last episode - a noble charge with little chance of survival to potentially end the war. No way he stands back and lets the other's fight for him either. He's always been one to do it himself (even back fighting Robb and Ned Stark) especially after he's seen **** loads of Lannister men get incinerated and butchered by the Dothraki and Drogon.

His arc has been one that's gone from unlikeable dickhead to the most changed character in the show, probably. I think most of us want him to turn on Cersei and be the hero he was when he took out the Mad King and his pyromancers to save King's Landing.

One way I'd have thought they'd have done the whole 'betray Cersei' thing (and we know/hope it's coming) is that Bronn and Jamie are captured, they attempt to ransom him back for Yara Greyjoy, Cersei refuses and either they send him back knowing that she's refused to ransom him and with the truce offer. Not my theory by the way, but one I read that made a lot of sense and avoided the miraculous escape and the rather easy-access to King's Landing (though then we don't get Gendry, at least that way). No we have the pregnancy plotline, is it real, is it his, etc. instead. The other feels more elegant to me.

I am looking forward to seeing how they manage the betrayal though.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I am looking forward to seeing how they manage the betrayal though.

One possibility is if Cersei 'plays' the north angle and promises to send troops north. She's ulikely to tell Jaime that that's her plan and it will be one betrayal too many.

That's the word she used to describe Jaime meeting Tyrion. Despite the fact that Jaime didn't arrange it, knew nothing about it and told her about it immediately afterwards. I thought it an unusual choice of word to describe what Cersei admitted she knew about beforehand.

To me, she's playing Jaime like any other player in the game of thrones. He's not the man to be played like that.

Dave_The_Sheep

Indeed, he's not. You could see him saying "what betrayal, you loon?" in his head.

I also don't think she knew about it beforehand. There's no way she'd have let it happen without capturing Tyrion if she had. There was no reason for her to not capture him. She just guessed based on Tyrion and Jamies mutual relationship with Bronn.

Much like the pregnancy, I think it's just a lie to manipulate him. A Jamie pregnancy politically does nothing for her and loses her her last ace card. She's nuts, but she's not that stupid yet.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Indeed, he's not. You could see him saying "what betrayal, you loon?" in his head.

I also don't think she knew about it beforehand. There's no way she'd have let it happen without capturing Tyrion if she had. There was no reason for her to not capture him. She just guessed based on Tyrion and Jamies mutual relationship with Bronn.

Much like the pregnancy, I think it's just a lie to manipulate him. A Jamie pregnancy politically does nothing for her and loses her her last ace card. She's nuts, but she's not that stupid yet.

Good point about Bronn. And the way she brought it up was indirect enough that she could feed off his reaction.

Initially i thought the pregnancy was a lie. But I'm not so sure now. After all, that's something that manifests itself relatively quickly and you'd have to reckon she's at least a month along at this stage. The other thing I noticed is that she didn't have the obligatory glass of wine when Jaime walked in. No wine or wine glasses anywhere to be seen.

Obviously those kinds of precautions wouldn't have been known of back then, but TV shows can't really do stuff like that without somebody getting excited. :rolleyes:

ardinn

At the pace the show is now going I fully expect the child to be born next episode and reach an age or fighting prowess and for it to kill Jamie!!!

CMOTDibbler

ardinn wrote: »

At the pace the show is now going I fully expect the child to be born next episode and reach an age or fighting prowess and for it to kill Jamie!!!

Child won't be born. The prophecy said she'd have three children. So it either dies with her or it dies by miscarriage.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I felt very sorry for poor old Dickon Tarly. Seemed like a nice enough (if somewhat earnest) young chap, who was saddled with a complete dick of a father. All Tarly senior had to do was bend the bloody knee and Dickon was off the hook. He didn't even try too hard to save his son and actually seemed glad of the companyD

Randyl did try to save him though and, short of knocking him out and dragging Dickon back into line, I'm not sure what more he could have done.

When Dickon first stands up, Randyl barks at him to shut up and keep back- presumably having instructed him off camera to keep his head down. Randyl attempts to disown his son, dismissing him as a "stupid boy" before Dickon boldly announces himself. Finally, when Dickon is given one last chance to bend the knee, Randyl can be seen to give him a nod giving him permission and encouragement to do so.

Far from being glad his son joined him, it seemed to distress Tarly senior greatly that he stepped up and he did everything possible under the circumstances to stop him doing so.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

Randyl did try to save him though and, short of knocking him out and dragging Dickon back into line, I'm not sure what more he could have done.

When Dickon first stands up, Randyl barks at him to shut up and keep back- presumably having instructed him off camera to keep his head down. Randyl attempts to disown his son, dismissing him as a "stupid boy" before Dickon boldly announces himself. Finally, when Dickon is given one last chance to bend the knee, Randyl can be seen to give him a nod giving him permission and encouragement to do so.

Far from being glad his son joined him, it seemed to distress Tarly senior greatly that he stepped up and he did everything possible under the circumstances to stop him doing so.

A man who was basically bought by the Lannisters and turned on his Lord couldn't bend the knee to save his son and his house?

And the nod was the best he could do?

DeadHand

I sympathise with the Tarlys.

Randyl is indeed a dick and a man capable of cruelty- he treats Sam abominably and seems disappointed when Jaime stops him whipping stragglers. But, from his point of view, we have Dany arriving in Westeros with an army composed mostly of barbarians who's culture revolves around destruction, slavery and rape. As one of the few remaining capable and widely respected Westerosi lords (one with a daughter and a wife he respects), Tarly must have felt honour bound to help organise and lead a native resistance against what he had good reason to believe would be the rape and enslavement of the people of Westeros.

We know that he also has his eye on the Stewardship of the South- there was self-interest at play the man isn't a saint but, on the whole, I believe his motivations were mostly honourable: to protect Westeros in what he saw as a defensive war.

We also know Dany curbs the excesses of her followers but Randyl, subjected as he was to Lannister propaganda, was not to know this.

I don't believe he was a traitor either, he pledged no oath to Dany. He was sworn to house Tyrell but house Tyrell was dead- Olenna was no more a Tyrell than Cersei was a Baratheon. Oleanna assumed control of Highgarden in the same way that Cersei assumed control of the Iron Throne: through untimely deaths, marriage and a lack of alternatives. Their claims to their respective inheritances are equally shaky and unorthodox.

Randyl could be branded a traitor had he joined either side or, indeed, had he just sat in Hornhill. It is clear he resented having to fight Oleanna and that he disliked Cersei. He only backed the Lannosters as a "lesser of two evils" type decision. Though he recognised Cersei for the tyrant she is, at least under Lannister rule his people would not be enslaved and destroyed. As he said himself "there are no easy choices in war".

I think it's entirely conceivable that he would have backed Dany (as he backed her father) had she used purely Westerosi forces.

As for Dickon, he served the same purpose as the infamous Ed Sheeran scene: to show that fundamentally decent people are forced to act against their nature in times of war. He gave the impression of a good-natured young fella who would much rather be hunting than killing people. Ferociously loyal to his father, he showed enormous courage in both the battle and the manner of his death.

Two immensely brave, honourable and dutiful men, not heroes but closer to being the Starks than the Boltons of the South. Randyl was a hard, cruel man though not a monster- he was a product of his harsh environment. In their last moments he reaches out to touch his son to comfort him- showing that he genuinely loved Dickon.

The relatively brief story of the Tarly's was one of the best examples of a constant element that makes this story great- the moral ambiguity of the characters- heroes who aren't fully good, villains who aren't all bad and so many who fall somewhere in between.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I sympathise with the Tarlys.

Great post and very well thought out. I can't really argue with your point of view because it's perfectly valid and I would mostly agree with it. I would just take issue with this bit:

DeadHand wrote: »

I don't believe he was a traitor either, he pledged no oath to Dany. He was sworn to house Tyrell but house Tyrell was dead- Olenna was no more a Tyrell than Cersei was a Baratheon. Oleanna assumed control of Highgarden in the same way that Cersei assumed control of the Iron Throne: through untimely deaths, marriage and a lack of alternatives. Their claims to their respective inheritances are equally shaky and unorthodox.

Olenna Tyrrell was the matriarch of House Tyrrell. She was Mace's mother and quite definitely ruled the house through him. No member of that house would ever have crossed her and indeed came to her for advice. Margaery was clearly a fan.

So to say that she was the equivalent of Cersei is way off the mark. There would have been no question in Highgarden of her not taking over. No bannerman of House Tyrrell would have even thought twice about her right to rule them.

That was what Randyll Tarly betrayed. And he did it to put House Tarly in Highgarden. He was very coy about joining the Lannisters until Jaime dangled that carrot in front of him. This is the Boltons betraying the Starks, the Freys breaking faith at the Red Wedding. This is how the Lannisters gain power and remove enemies.

The White Wolf

DeadHand wrote: »

I sympathise with the Tarlys.

Randyl is indeed a dick and a man capable of cruelty- he treats Sam abominably and seems disappointed when Jaime stops him whipping stragglers. But, from his point of view, we have Dany arriving in Westeros with an army composed mostly of barbarians who's culture revolves around destruction, slavery and rape. As one of the few remaining capable and widely respected Westerosi lords (one with a daughter and a wife he respects), Tarly must have felt honour bound to help organise and lead a native resistance against what he had good reason to believe would be the rape and enslavement of the people of Westeros.

We know that he also has his eye on the Stewardship of the South- there was self-interest at play the man isn't a saint but, on the whole, I believe his motivations were mostly honourable: to protect Westeros in what he saw as a defensive war.

We also know Dany curbs the excesses of her followers but Randyl, subjected as he was to Lannister propaganda, was not to know this.

I don't believe he was a traitor either, he pledged no oath to Dany. He was sworn to house Tyrell but house Tyrell was dead- Olenna was no more a Tyrell than Cersei was a Baratheon. Oleanna assumed control of Highgarden in the same way that Cersei assumed control of the Iron Throne: through untimely deaths, marriage and a lack of alternatives. Their claims to their respective inheritances are equally shaky and unorthodox.

Randyl could be branded a traitor had he joined either side or, indeed, had he just sat in Hornhill. It is clear he resented having to fight Oleanna and that he disliked Cersei. He only backed the Lannosters as a "lesser of two evils" type decision. Though he recognised Cersei for the tyrant she is, at least under Lannister rule his people would not be enslaved and destroyed. As he said himself "there are no easy choices in war".

I think it's entirely conceivable that he would have backed Dany (as he backed her father) had she used purely Westerosi forces.

As for Dickon, he served the same purpose as the infamous Ed Sheeran scene: to show that fundamentally decent people are forced to act against their nature in times of war. He gave the impression of a good-natured young fella who would much rather be hunting than killing people. Ferociously loyal to his father, he showed enormous courage in both the battle and the manner of his death.

Two immensely brave, honourable and dutiful men, not heroes but closer to being the Starks than the Boltons of the South. Randyl was a hard, cruel man though not a monster- he was a product of his harsh environment. In their last moments he reaches out to touch his son to comfort him- showing that he genuinely loved Dickon.

The relatively brief story of the Tarly's was one of the best examples of a constant element that makes this story great: the moral ambiguity of the characters: heroes who aren't fully good, villains who aren't all bad and so many who fall somewhere in between.

Which was in contrast to the near panic and disgust he displayed when Tyrion suggested the Night's Watch, where he'd have to spend the rest of his life with his other son....the son he repeatedly threatened with a loss of life.

So while no where near the level of the Boltons, the man is an absolute scumbag. The fact that he displayed affection for the chosen son in his eyes doesn't change that view all that much for me albeit gaining sympathy for a father and son facing death together.

Dickon had all my sympathy for the reasons you mentioned.

DeadHand

The White Wolf wrote: »

Which was in contrast to the near panic and disgust he displayed when Tyrion suggested the Night's Watch, where he'd have to spend the rest of his life with his other son....the son he repeatedly threatened with a loss of life.

I saw no panic and disgust- he was not afraid of The Wall he simply did not accept that Dany had the right to send him there.

I doubt Sam didn't enter into. In any case, he knew Sam was no longer at The Wall.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I saw no panic and disgust- he was not afraid of The Wall he simply did not accept that Dany had the right to send him there.

I doubt Sam didn't enter into. In any case, he knew Sam was no longer at The Wall.

To be fair to him, he could well have been disgusted with his own betrayal of the Tyrrells. Changing allegiance again would just double down on that. Going to the wall would not have retrieved his honour either. So he chose death.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

A man who was basically bought by the Lannisters and turned on his Lord couldn't bend the knee to save his son and his house?

And the nod was the best he could do?

I don't believe he was bought by the Lannisters. While the offer of the South may have helped- I believe he fought mostly for the reason I outlined previously: the preservation of Westeros. If the man was so easily bought he'd have taken Dany's offer. His life and that of his son was worth much more than anything the Lannisters could promise.

He didn't turn on his Lord as Oleanna was not his Lord and never had been.

A nod was the best he could do- he's not the type to throw himself on the ground and wail.

CMOTDibbler

DeadHand wrote: »

I don't believe he was bought by the Lannisters. While the offer of the South may have helped- I believe he fought mostly for the reason I outlined previously: the preservation of Westeros. If the man was so easily bought he'd have taken Dany's offer. His life and that of his son was worth much more than anything the Lannisters could promise.

He didn't turn on his Lord as Oleanna was not his Lord and never had been.

A nod was the best he could do- he's not the type to throw himself on the ground and wail.

He was clearly bought. He was playing hard to get, up until Jaime basically offered him Highgarden. Next thing we know he's killing Tyrrell bannermen and leaving Jaime finish off Olenna.

Olenna was (as I outlined) the matriarch of House Tyrrell. A figure of power in that house for three generations. Randyll Tarly would have known her all his life. In case of confusion, she was the living representative of the family he swore fealty to. You can't just brush her under the carpet and pretend she and what she represents, doesn't exist. Using the word Lord in this context doesn't exclude Lady. Sansa Stark is being touted as head of House Stark by Littlefinger. Is it somoehow different for her? Or Lysa Arryn before she took a long walk off a short moon door?

Nope. He was a traitor and he knew it.

Oh, and just for sh1ts and giggles, he sided with the woman who wiped out the rest of House Tyrrell. No furriners involved there, just home grown batsh1t craziness.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

To be fair to him, he could well have been disgusted with his own betrayal of the Tyrrells. Changing allegiance again would just double down on that. Going to the wall would not have retrieved his honour either. So he chose death.

He didn't betray the Tyrells as there was no legitimate House Tyrell left to betray.

He chose death as basically a final "go f*ck yourself" to Dany: a total rejection of her legitimacy.

Though he was a dick in his private life, he died with his martial and political honour fully intact.

DeadHand

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Nope. He was a traitor and he knew it.

No, I don't believe he was and I sincerely doubt he believed he was either.

Oleanna certainly pulled the strings in the Reach for years. Yet, her puppetry and the tolerance thereof was based on the legitimacy of Mace (and probably the quality of her rule also, in fairness). No Mace or Loras means no legitimate house Tyrell. Without them, Oleanna is nothing and is owed nothing by the Tyrell vassals.

Yes, it is different for Lyssa as she ruled through Robin- a legitimate Arryn. It is different for Sansa as she is a Stark. Olenna was neither a Tyrell nor did she have a Tyrell to rule through.

Now, the Southern lords may have rallied around her anyway, and I'm sure some did, out of respect for her capability and standing. But in my view, Randyl lost all respect for her when she facilitied a foreign, barbarous invasion. He may well have thought her unhinged having recently lost her family and unfit for rule.

He might have betrayed Oleanna on a personal level but he may also have concluded that she had betrayed the people of the Reach by inviting onto them GRRM's version of the Mongols in her grief and ruinous desire for revenge.

We don't know how many Southern lords took the Tarly view and how many stuck with Oleanna but, considering how easily Jaime steamrolled what was left of the Tyrell forces, it's fair to deduce that a significant portion of the Reach followed Tarly.