Irish people with English accents

diomed

" Accents seem to remain relatively malleable until a person's early twenties, after which a person's accent seems to become more entrenched." Wiki

Should we employ hundreds of Geordie kindergarten teachers to create the material for an RTE Gerodie Shore in the 2030s?

whisky_galore

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I am reminded of when Silvain Wiltord joined Arsenal and upon being asked what he was looking for from English football replied "a pe-nis", or at least that's what it sounded like to the English journalists in the room.

To his French manager ( who actually clarified his statement) it came out as "Happiness".

Sounds awfully like that old chestnut involving Charles De Gaulle's missus.

topper75

farmchoice wrote: »

there are also generational accents, people in their 30's and 40's have a distinct accent from those in their 50's ad 60's and same again for people older than that.

Varied amount of exposure to media:

Old folks grew up with some radio.

Middle-agers had kids TV between 4 and 5.30. Half or more of that content was Irish-made.

Millennials as kids would have had day long exposure to U.S. and UK content.

Not surprising geog differences are being slowly wiped out with younger folk.

farmchoice

topper75 wrote: »

Varied amount of exposure to media:

Old folks grew up with some radio.

Middle-agers had kids TV between 4 and 5.30. Half or more of that content was Irish-made.

Millennials as kids would have had day long exposure to U.S. and UK content.

Not surprising geog differences are being slowly wiped out with younger folk.

i purposely didn't mention younger people as most teens and a lot of people in there 20's now speak with something approaching a Californian accent.

but you know i think they lose it again and revert as they get older. its a self confidence thing, when you're younger you ape what you you think is cool as you get older you realize you are starting to sound like a prick.

as you get older and have kids and become more community rooted the essence of that community seeps back in.

bobbyss

Fratton Fred wrote:

I am reminded of when Silvain Wiltord joined Arsenal and upon being asked what he was looking for from English football replied "a pe-nis", or at least that's what it sounded like to the English journalists in the room.

Gone are the days when footballers had proper men's names.

mariaalice

Accents and dialect are fascinating, was at a heritage week event at the weekend and the person hosting the event has a really perfect Anglo Irish accent or dialect they sounded exactly like Shane Ross despite being in their mid twenties. It is an Irish dialect not some sort of English accent.

InTheTrees

farmchoice wrote: »

i purposely didn't mention younger people as most teens and a lot of people in there 20's now speak with something approaching a Californian accent.

Here's a story from a few years back on the view that the main drivers of change in languages are teenage girls.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/teen-slang-young-women-dr_n_1331724.html

George White

bobbyss wrote: »

Shane Ross:He must have lived in England for a long time?
David Norris: Ditto?
Declan Ganly:Ditto?
There is a horse racing chap who does the racing, a Robert somebody?

Robert Hall. For years, I was convinced he was a relation of the now-disgraced BBC sports broadcaster/It's a Knockout host, Stuart Hall. Similar voices, same name, share a resemblance. But no, Robert Hall IIRC is Kildare born and bred.

There's enough of an Irish lilt left in Chris de Burgh for Brits to notice.

George White

murpho999 wrote: »

TV in the 70s and 80s was full of American TV too.

70s:Mash, Starsky and Hutch, Brady Bunch, The Muppet Show, Sesame Street, Streets of San Francisco, Six Million Dollar Man, The Odd Couple, Mary Tyler Moore Show. Charlies Angels, Happy Days, Hawaii Five-0,

80s: Chips, A Team, Dukes of Hazard, Cheers, Hill Street Blues, Miami Vice, Alf , The Cosby Show, Cagney & Lacey, Dallas, Different Strokes, Family Matters

These are just programmes I can think of off the top of my head that were on Irish and UK TV an awful lot and were hugely popular.

The Muppets technically were a British show, as Henson couldn't get any US network on board, and had to go to England to get Lew Grade for ATV/ITV to do it.

panda100 wrote: »

I get that all the time. I was born and raised by Irish parents in London and moved back here when I was 15. I still have a very strong English accent despite being here 20 years now. My brother was 18 when he moved over and picked up the irish accent very quickly.

I had a teacher in school. She was Midlands or Kildare, but raised in English boarding school, but she had an accent that some people thought was Australian, but I presumed was West Country or Brummie.

Lia_lia wrote: »

Most of the hippie crowd down in West Cork have English accents. A parent/both parents would have been English but these people have lived in Ireland their whole lives and have proper English accents. It's a bit weird.

I was born in England and lived there for a few years. Had an English accent till I was about 11 but started putting on an Irish accent till it became my accent. Having an English accent in school in Kerry is bullying material!

I went to a Protestant primary school in Dublin, and a fair few of my classmates had British parents, and hybrid accents, like I eventually ended up with, despite my mum being a Dub and my dad a Brayman. My own accent is quite English, a. having a few British teachers, b. watching a lot of UK film and TV, c. this.

pauliebdub wrote: »

It seems to be fairly common with some Church of Ireland people who go to CoI schools and only mix with people who are very similar to themselves who tend to have English or very neutral mid Atlantic accents.

Yes, a lot of people in my primary school were this. Including myself, although my accent is slightly more Northern English, for some reason.

Del.Monte wrote: »

I had the same problem as I grew up in Bray but not being 'proper' Irish couldn't say it.

Ditto, must be a Bray thing.

bobbyss wrote: »

It is strange how you can hold onto an accent after such little exposure to it after all those years. The whole idea of acquisition and retention of language is strange.
Forget to mention Kenneth brannagh. I know little about him other than he was born in Ulster and then moved on to England although after how many years I don't know. I saw him on telly in the Billy trilogy as a young fella with a strong Norn Iron accent and couldn't believe what it developed into or how. I assume in England he was surrounded by people who spoke similarly. I libe English dialects: Liverpool, Newcastle and so on. I think they are great. Graham Norton would be known as someone with an Irish accent but heavily impregnated by a posh English twang.
I suppose it has to do with the wiring in your brain and exposure.

Branagh deliberately changed his accent to avoid bullying, and drama school helped too. See also, Edward Mulhare, born and raised in Cork (although IIRC he came from middle-class roots). but spoke in a RP accent, played mostly Brits, Devon in Knight Rider, became a sort of Aldi Rex Harrison. Seen him in interviews. And the accent he used on TV was his real accent. He did begin his career in UK, in ITC shows, though.

bobbyss wrote: »

What's strange is that adults also are influenced by this American influence. Listen to Miriam O' Callaghan with her upward intonation. Even more remarkable is the odd culchie TD has this. Xpose's presenters, no spring chickens, go around talking as if they were fourteen year old girls from USA.

TBH, with the culchie TDs, they probably wanted to be country singers before entering politics. A lot of the Xpose sorts have worked in Canada and in the US beforehand.

farmchoice

George White wrote: »

The Muppets technically were a British show, as Henson couldn't get any US network on board, and had to go to England to get Lew Grade for ATV/ITV to do it.


I had a teacher in school. She was Midlands or Kildare, but raised in English boarding school, but she had an accent that some people thought was Australian, but I presumed was West Country or Brummie.


I went to a Protestant primary school in Dublin, and a fair few of my classmates had British parents, and hybrid accents, like I eventually ended up with, despite my mum being a Dub and my dad a Brayman. My own accent is quite English, a. having a few British teachers, b. watching a lot of UK film and TV, c. this.

Yes, a lot of people in my primary school were this. Including myself, although my accent is slightly more Northern English, for some reason.


Ditto, must be a Bray thing.


Branagh deliberately changed his accent to avoid bullying, and drama school helped too. See also, Edward Mulhare, born and raised in Cork (although IIRC he came from middle-class roots). but spoke in a RP accent, played mostly Brits, Devon in Knight Rider, became a sort of Aldi Rex Harrison. Seen him in interviews. And the accent he used on TV was his real accent. He did begin his career in UK, in ITC shows, though.


TBH, with the culchie TDs, they probably wanted to be country singers before entering politics. A lot of the Xpose sorts have worked in Canada and in the US beforehand.

i'm afraid its nothing as exotic as that, they put it on. just as Miriam o callaghan puts on the up talk, and you dont have to be on the telly either.

a mate of mine started doing it a few years ago in his mid thirties, as you can imagine he's a gob****e.

we all have friends or have head the stories of people going off to the US for the summer and coming back with broadd American accents, and in fairness its forgivable in young people its just a bit of affectation.

i had a mate once who went to college in letterkenny, he came back 10 days (10 day!!! i swear to god) later with a thick donegal accent!!!!
he had knocked it on the head by the following weekend.

when adults do it and do it because they think in some way it makes them sound better or more sophisticated or more educated or cooler i find it incredibly irksome.

i always thought that someone in RTE should have had a word with Miriam o callaghan about it. putting on an accent in your 50's whilst a national broadcaster is pathetic.

Steve F

myshirt wrote: »

Trace the bloodline. Check the milkman.

Pat Mustard

George White

farmchoice wrote: »

[/B]i'm afraid its nothing as exotic as that, they put it on. just as Miriam o callaghan puts on the up talk, and you dont have to be on the telly either.

a mate of mine started doing it a few years ago in his mid thirties, as you can imagine he's a gob****e.

we all have friends or have head the stories of people going off to the US for the summer and coming back with broadd American accents, and in fairness its forgivable in young people its just a bit of affectation.

i had a mate once who went to college in letterkenny, he came back 10 days (10 day!!! i swear to god) later with a thick donegal accent!!!!
he had knocked it on the head by the following weekend.

when adults do it and do it because they think in some way it makes them sound better or more sophisticated or more educated or cooler i find it incredibly irksome.

i always thought that someone in RTE should have had a word with Miriam o callaghan about it. putting on an accent in your 50's whilst a national broadcaster is pathetic.

Hughie Green worked for ITV for twenty years, despite having an accent shaped by a failed Hollywood career and work in Canada. Yet still saw himself as completely British, on an obsessive almost Unionist level. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64z16Vd69Vs

Creol1

Michael D., when he is visiting England.

mariaalice

Creol1 wrote: »

Michael D., when he is visiting England.

Michael D has a lovely accent but he has what a lot of academics who worked before the era of technology have, which is putting a lot of effort in to being very clear and precise and enunciating their words.

Del.Monte

Creol1 wrote: »

Michael D., when he is visiting England.

I don't think that anyone could accuse Michael D of having anything remotely like a British accent.

steddyeddy

There's no homogenous British accent anyway. Even in Hampshire there's variations on accents.

LordSutch

English accents vary from place to place, and from region to region, same with Scottish accents, of which there are many, same with Irish accents too! Some Scottish people even have English accents & some English people have Welsh accents, some English people have Irish accents, and recently I even heard about an Irish person with an American accent!
What's that all about?

Brendan Bendar

Del.Monte wrote: »

I don't think that anyone could accuse Michael D of having anything remotely like a British accent.

Well whatever kind of accent it is it sure ain't from the Limerick/Clare/Galway region where he spent his early years.

A very 'flowery' accent I would describe it as,delivered in a very theatrical way.

Del.Monte

LordSutch wrote: »

English accents vary from place to place, and from region to region, same with Scottish accents, of which there are many, same with Irish accents too! Some Scottish people even have English accents & some English people have Welsh accents, some English people have Irish accents, and recently I even heard about an Irish person with an American accent!
What's that all about?

The first few seconds of this illustrate your point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcZChdM0OiI

bobbyss

farmchoice wrote:

i always thought that someone in RTE should have had a word with Miriam o callaghan about it. putting on an accent in your 50's whilst a national broadcaster is pathetic.

Yeah it's sad really. And what's worrying is that she's nearing the 60s I think. Time for a bit of cop on.

pappyodaniel

George from Glenroe is another one.

darkdubh

pappyodaniel wrote: »

George from Glenroe is another one.

Alan Stanford is English, he only moved to Ireland in his early twenties.

LordSutch

Tracy Piggott is another one.

dense

Peregrinus wrote: »

It sounds like a speech impediment to us, but actually is an extreme version of an accent feature. Ross is perfectly capable of forming the 'r' sound with his tongue placed on the ridge behind the top teeth, as you and I and all nearly Irish people do, but in fact he forms it by bringing his lower lip close to his top teeth, which is standard in Estuary English, which is his native dialect, and in quite a number of other dialects. This produces a much looser sound, and in his case it's particularly exaggerated, so it sounds to us like a 'w' sound. But in fact there's a sharp distinction between Ross's true 'w' sound - the sound he would use in a word like "woman", for example, - and the sound he makes when pronouncing his own name.

Regarding London, while in education are they deliberately taught to pronounce "bath" as "bof" or ever corrected over it?

darkdubh

LordSutch wrote: »

Tracy Piggott is another one.

Like Alan Stanford born in England and moved to Ireland in her twenties. Saying that you'd think she might pick up some trace of an Irish accent at this stage.

Peregrinus

dense wrote: »

Regarding London, while in education are they deliberately taught to pronounce "bath" as "bof" or ever corrected over it?

The long 'a' in "bath", "castle", "Shaftesbury Avenue", etc is standard in most variants of English spoke in the south-east of England; nobody will be "corrected" for it because it's not regarded as incorrect.

What you hear as an 'f' sound at the end of "bath" is called "th-fronting". It occurs in a number of English variants; not just in London but also in Bristol and, slightly surprisingly, in Yorkshire, in Newfoundland, in Hong Kong and among a lot of African-American speakers.

It used to be regarded as characteristic of working-class speech (at least, in the South of England) and, as such, was often corrected (or attempted to be corrected) by teachers. But in fact it's making its way up the social scale; it's increasingly common in middle-class speech in the South of England, and so is no longer as deprecated as it once was. So, no, it's probably not much corrected these days.

LordSutch

darkdubh wrote: »

Like Alan Stanford born in England and moved to Ireland in her twenties. Saying that you'd think she might pick up some trace of an Irish accent at this stage.

Accents are funny things, I worked with a man in London who had moved to England thirty years earlier, yet he had no trace of an English accent, although his Kerry accent persisted!
I also knew a girl in her 20s who had also moved to England and had developed a south London twang within five years.

rodneyTrotter.

bobbyss wrote: »

Gone are the days when footballers had proper men's names.

Like Roy Race and Blackie Gray from Melchester Rovers

Real men

Benjamin Buttons

rodneyTrotter. wrote: »

Like Roy Race and Blackie Gray from Melchester Rovers

Real men

Roy certainly was a wonderful striker who gave 110% every time he donned the famous red and yellow shirt!
Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

branie2

bobbyss wrote: »

Shane Ross:He must have lived in England for a long time?
David Norris: Ditto?
Declan Ganly:Ditto?
There is a horse racing chap who does the racing, a Robert somebody?
Charles Mitchell:ex RTE newsreader had a touch of one I believe.
Martin Manserg;Former senator.
Brian Farrell RTE
Chris de Burgh
Brian O'Connell: Former RTE London correspondent.

Anyone else?

How long do you have to live in England to acquire and retain the accent I wonder?

Robert Hall

branie2

The Duke of Wellington

Peregrinus

branie2 wrote: »

The Duke of Wellington

Wellesley was sent by his family to Eton, by one account largely so that he would lose his Irish accent, which his family felt would handicap him in polite society. By all accounts he hated the place, but he hated even more being seen as Irish, and he did succeed in losing his accent. He had a good ear, was musically talented and learned to speak fluent french in adulthood (learning a new language in adulthood is difficult) so he probably didn't have too much trouble acquiring a new accent.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

I know heaps of Irish people who live or have lived in the UK for varying lengths of time and almost none of them have picked up even a hint of a twang, apart from one girl who lives in Scotland. My OH's sister lives in southern England, is married to an English guy, loves living there, is always slagging off Ireland (infrastructure, weather etc), but her accent sounds like she never left Galway.

I think, on some level, you have to want to lose your accent for whatever reason.

Zubeneschamali

stimpson wrote: »

He can't. Apparently to a yank his accent is awful.

Bryan Singer, the director, specified that he wanted an American actor for House. Laurie auditioned anyway, and Singer hired him, not realizing he was British.

Dr Bob

Erik Shin wrote: »

Not you, but this is a phenomenon that is becoming more common amongst children...English and American accents from watching kids shows on television

That happened to me....mid 70s..we lived in a dodgy neighbourhood with no play areas ..so until I was 5 or 6 spent a lot of time inside watching TV ( mostly BBC and ITV which didnt have much in the way of regional accents back then) .. I ended up developing a R.P. , public school English accent ...which didnt go down too well in Crumlin! .
In fact most kids at school didnt think I was Irish.It took years to lose it and as a result most of the time I have a sort of neutral Irish accent ( whereas my brothers have proper Dublin accents)...

Zubeneschamali

topper75 wrote: »

Hundreds of years of sending their kids to schools to another country: England. Not entirely sure what is Irish about that.

Not sure it's any of your business where they go to school, or that anyone gave you the authority to judge the Irishness of other Irish citizens.

And since forever, the CoI community has faced the possibility as a small minority of being absorbed by the majority through intermarriage if they don't make efforts to have their children socialise with each other.

topper75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not sure it's any of your business where they go to school, or that anyone gave you the authority to judge the Irishness of other Irish citizens.

And since forever, the CoI community has faced the possibility as a small minority of being absorbed by the majority through intermarriage if they don't make efforts to have their children socialise with each other.

I don't need any authority to make judgement on a situation, do I? Or has something changed about opinion entitlement in these fast-moving times?

So, if kids in the CoI community are sent to CoI schools here in IRELAND, that exposes them to a threat of absorption how exactly? Are the teachers of Irish CoI schools so strict that the pupils are not permitted to socialise with one another?

Crispycool

That's feckin ridiculous mate

Squatter

One acquired accent that really grates on me is Jim Beglin's - I don't know how to describe it!

But it's not Waterford and neither is it Milltown (where I first saw him playing for Rovers, back in the dark ages!).

WesternZulu

Squatter wrote: »

One acquired accent that really grates on me is Jim Beglin's - I don't know how to describe it!

But it's not Waterford and neither is it Milltown (where I first saw him playing for Rovers, back in the dark ages!).

You wouldn't call his an English accent. Although it's very hard to place it's definitely an Irish one.

I was a bit shocked to find out he was from Waterford though when he was on Up For The Match.

Zubeneschamali

topper75 wrote: »

So, if kids in the CoI community are sent to CoI schools here in IRELAND, that exposes them to a threat of absorption how exactly?

There aren't many CoI schools. My nearest primary school has to be Mixed to be big enough to stay open, and there is no CoI secondary school in town at all, the kids would have to go boarding anyway.

(If I was CoI myself or gave a crap about religious ethos, you understand, neither of which applies).

topper75

So they can board in an Irish school, can they not?

I am not of any ethos myself and it is not the ethos I am taking issue with in the slightest.

However, residing here and passing over Irish schools, undermines their belonging to Ireland to put it generously. The entire mindset is predicated on a puerile denial of Irish nationhood and independence despite having been given a mere century to come around to the concept.

Del.Monte

topper75 wrote: »

So they can board in an Irish school, can they not?

I am not of any ethos myself and it is not the ethos I am taking issue with in the slightest.

However, residing here and passing over Irish schools, undermines their belonging to Ireland to put it generously. The entire mindset is predicated on a puerile denial of Irish nationhood and independence despite having been given a mere century to come around to the concept.

Surely it's up to the individual where they send their children to be educated? Why should they be obliged to 'belong' to Ireland?

Zubeneschamali

topper75 wrote: »

However, residing here and passing over Irish schools, undermines their belonging to Ireland to put it generously.

You are not putting anything generously. They are as Irish as you are whether you like it or not.

topper75

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You are not putting anything generously. They are as Irish as you are whether you like it or not.

Ha ha! Classic.

Were you the PR agency sent out to bat for the Mossad lads with the passports?

JupiterKid

Your social class, your peers in school and your family are huge influences on your accent.

My sisters and I had elocution lessons in primary school (our mum was adamant we wouldn't have thick Dub accents) and as a result we all now have very neutral, slightly posh accents.

But not "D4" accents. They are a recent invention.

Lux23

My Mum used to say that was an educated accent, I quite like but you don't really come across it that much anymore.

Bygumbo

from what I hear the D4 accent is becoming more and more "Americanised". The likes of "totally", "Right?","do the math", squeezing as many "like"s into a sentence as possible and so on. And the most annoying of all, ending every sentence on a high tone, turning every statement into a question.

Normal eejits put higher tone on the action of a sentence, eg: "Yesterday I WENT to the shop", or maybe no emphasis at all. Americans put higher tone on the last word of every sentence which sounds thick, "Yesterday I went to the SHOP."

100% due to American pollution channelled into our homes via the internet and telly non-stop. A sign that people are spending less time around actual people and more time looking at screens?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Bygumbo wrote: »

from what I hear the D4 accent is becoming more and more "Americanised". The likes of "totally", "Right?","do the math", squeezing as many "like"s into a sentence as possible and so on. And the most annoying of all, ending every sentence on a high tone, turning every statement into a question.

The (accent generally known as the) D4 accent has a very interesting interpretation of certain phonemes too though, which can'tbe pinned on Americans. I doubt anyone from the states would talk about 'the Wohkinstewn rewndehbewt' for example :pac: Or how they had to coll the gords when they crashed their cor.

The older posher Dublin accent is a lot more neutral, I don't know what on earth happened to the poor souls over the past twenty years or so.

Peregrinus

Accents are constantly developing, so my accent that I regard as perfectly normal and the standard against which all others should be measured would have seemed affected or innovative to someone, say, two generations older than me. This process never stops.

Young people pick up the accents of their peers more than those of their parents. So the children of migrants into any country usually grow up with the accent of the country into which they have migrated. This is so even if they immigrated at an age when they were already speaking, as long as they were still young at the time and speaking with a "childish" manner.

What may limit the acquisition of a local accent is the speaking of a different language at home. So an Australian toddler who immigrates to Ireland will likely grow up with completely Irish speech and accent. But a Chinese or Arab toddler, if Chinese/Arabic continue to be spoken at home, will grow up with fluent English, but quite possibly recognisably Chinese or Arabic characteristics in his accent.

The "rising inflection" that people note in the D4 accent, and that they regard as typically American, is also typically Australian. It first appears in UK speech in the 1980s, among teenagers, and linguists at the time attributed it to the huge popularity of Australian soap operas. It's now fairly widespread in both UK and Irish speech, and people who develop it are not necessarily picking it up from US TV shows, since they are being exposed to it in a lot more ways than just that.