Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

marcus001

VinLieger wrote: »

Ahh so you agree your logic is flawed and completely bull****

I don't answer loaded questions, troll.

The Legend Of Kira

jooksavage wrote: »

Nazis hold a rally. An actual NAZI RALLY... so we all need to talk about the LEFT?

Not so long ago those on the right used to condemn liberals for their "moral relativism". It was a drum they beat day and night. How the worm has turned.

Not every ying has a yang. Nazis don't. There are no equivalents on the "other side".

The reason people are talking about the extreme left is because they have given plenty of reasons for people to talk about them + plenty of stuff to highlight , if they didn,t engage in constant violence/constant Intimidation towards  Trump supporters in general there wouldn,t be anything to talk about nor anything to highlight,  here they are in this video trying to Intimidate a fellow in a wheelchair/ a veteran, if any Trump supporters done the same as in trying to Intimidate people in wheelchairs it be highlighted an awful lot more.

https://twitter.com/RepStevenSmith/status/897783655002775552

Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

For Reals

Help!!!! wrote: »

Ok so at an antifa rally you say they are mainly anarchists? So when the commie flag wavers turn up does that mean they have all turned commie?

You do realise you are commenting in the role of a white supremacist apologist?
The rally was organised and attended by white supremacists.
The City council's decision to move the statue was a mere excuse to rally, unite the KKK, ALT-right, racists.
Trying to make comparisons with any other people there, putting them on par with the racists, is suggesting the racists have no intention of causing minorities any harm or ill will, which is white supremacist propaganda veiled under a thin layer of baloney.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

...

Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

And that's how one normalises and supports racists. You are cool with white supremacists, but not the extreme ones? That was no concerned heritage rally. Lee's family want it put in a Museum.

The Legend Of Kira

For Reals wrote: »

Help!!!! wrote: »

Ok so at an antifa rally you say they are mainly anarchists? So when the commie flag wavers turn up does that mean they have all turned commie?

You do realise you are commenting in the role of a white supremacist apologist?
The rally was organised and attended by white supremacists.
The City council's decision to move the statue was a mere excuse to rally, unite the KKK, ALT-right, racists.
Trying to make comparisons with any other people there, putting them on par with the racists, is suggesting the racists have no intention of causing minorities any harm or ill will, which is white supremacist propaganda veiled under a thin layer of baloney.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

...

Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

And that's how one normalises and supports racists. You are cool with white supremacists, but not the extreme ones? That was no concerned heritage rally. Lee's family want it put in a Museum.

When i said  

"" Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists ""

I condemn " white supremacy extremists " because white supremacists in general are extremists , there is no other word to describe white supremacists other then extremists.

oscarBravo

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The reason people are talking about the extreme left is because...

...they want to move the conversation away from the fact that fascists and Nazis are openly parading in the streets.

Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness.

Do you have anything to say about the non-exhaustive list of actual terrorist acts I posted earlier, or are you just going to whatabout the thread with another swathe of memes and videos?

Danzy

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RepStevenSmith/status/897783655002775552

Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

People make out like these Nazi micro-groups and Antifa are staunchly ideological, there is an ideology platform there for them work out from but, it is mostly just rich Middle Class kids looking for a cause that will allow them to control others,intimidate others and beat up on the street.

Either of these sides, the people in them,when they have complete power have always ended in mass murder and eventual collapse.

If you want to be a street activist, fighting malign forces that are organizing, I'm not going to stop you but if you see a Nazi and an Antifa fighting, hit both of their heads with the Iron bar in your hand.

If you are on the Right you can hit the Nazi again when he is down, if you are on the left hit the Antifa again.

The Legend Of Kira

oscarBravo wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The reason people are talking about the extreme left is because...

...they want to move the conversation away from the fact that fascists and Nazis are openly parading in the streets.

Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness.

 Do you have anything to say about the non-exhaustive list of actual terrorist acts I posted earlier, or are you just going to whatabout the thread with another swathe of memes and videos?

"" Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness. ""

I condemn them both equally because they re both extreme + they both engage in fascist like behavior, I outlined in a post last night in  detail why I see Antifa as extremists .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104398237&postcount=778

Even New jersey homeland security sees them as extremists .

https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa

 "" Do you have anything to say about the non-exhaustive list of actual terrorist acts I posted earlier ""

Any groups that engage in any form of terrorism should be banned + proscribed under the law , it should be a criminal offence to be a member of any terror group under the law .

For Reals

Danzy wrote: »

People make out like these Nazi micro-groups and Antifa are staunchly ideological, there is an ideology platform there for them work out from but, it is mostly just rich Middle Class kids looking for a cause that will allow them to control others,intimidate others and beat up on the street.

Either of these sides, the people in them,when they have complete power have always ended in mass murder and eventual collapse.

If you want to be a street activist, fighting malign forces that are organizing, I'm not going to stop you but if you see a Nazi and an Antifa fighting, hit both of their heads with the Iron bar in your hand.

If you are on the Right you can hit the Nazi again when he is down, if you are on the left hit the Antifa again.

Violence shouldn't be tolerated. White supremacy is geared towards putting one set of people above another. You cannot dismiss this nor normalise this as you seem to be attempting to do. Two wrongs don't excuse an ALT-Right.
All the antifa bad press, video, photos in the world will not normalise or excuse the racist rally that resulted in murder.
White supremacy stands alone in it's ideology of hate and is to be abhorred.

Saruhashi

oscarBravo wrote: »

...they want to move the conversation away from the fact that fascists and Nazis are openly parading in the streets.

Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness.

I disagree with you on the first part but agree with you on the second part.

I don't think people are trying to move the conversation away from Fascists and Nazis but rather it seems blatantly obvious that the violent clashes in the US have been escalating and it was only a matter of time before someone dies.

So when there were protests against speakers at colleges or protests against Trump these were not protests against "Nazis" and oftentimes the people who were beaten up were not Fascists at all. People also see what Antifa were doing in Hamburg and are thinking that both "sides" are looking for trouble and looking for fights.

Why can't someone just be on the side of non-violence and ask that we acknowledge in some way that there was an escalation of violence here over many months and that more than one faction needs to be held accountable?

Now, on the other hand, I agree with you that saying "one side is as bad as the other" is terribly, extremely, wrong(even if this is well-meaning). White supremacist/nationalist groups were responsible for what happened at the weekend and one of them killed a person. They should take sole responsibility for that.

Their rally was a disgrace and some of the things they were chanting tells you exactly what kind of mindset exists within the movement. They should be condemned and discredited and banned if possible.

When an Antifa or BLM or whatever rally gets so bad that someone dies then I would hope that people will stand up and condemn them too. Now is not the time for that.

We probably should not be so quick to just assume that other people are defending Nazis or trying to deflect. The pattern of escalation is obvious and it will seem quite natural to some people to point out that both sides have encouraged each other to become more violent. It was really only a matter of time before someone was killed.

Maybe it is better to just condemn one group at a time. The right wing people at Charlottesville should be blamed for what happened and their actions and flags and chants, and their entire ideology, should be condemned.

wes

https://twitter.com/make_ready/status/897899970501541888

For those still trying to defend Nazi's. Again, there is no comparison.

For Reals

Saruhashi wrote: »

I disagree with you on the first part but agree with you on the second part.

I don't think people are trying to move the conversation away from Fascists and Nazis but rather it seems blatantly obvious that the violent clashes in the US have been escalating and it was only a matter of time before someone dies.

So when there were protests against speakers at colleges or protests against Trump these were not protests against "Nazis" and oftentimes the people who were beaten up were not Fascists at all. People also see what Antifa were doing in Hamburg and are thinking that both "sides" are looking for trouble and looking for fights.

Why can't someone just be on the side of non-violence and ask that we acknowledge in some way that there was an escalation of violence here over many months and that more than one faction needs to be held accountable?

Now, on the other hand, I agree with you that saying "one side is as bad as the other" is terribly, extremely, wrong(even if this is well-meaning). White supremacist/nationalist groups were responsible for what happened at the weekend and one of them killed a person. They should take sole responsibility for that.

Their rally was a disgrace and some of the things they were chanting tells you exactly what kind of mindset exists within the movement. They should be condemned and discredited and banned if possible.

When an Antifa or BLM or whatever rally gets so bad that someone dies then I would hope that people will stand up and condemn them too. Now is not the time for that.

We probably should not be so quick to just assume that other people are defending Nazis or trying to deflect. The pattern of escalation is obvious and it will seem quite natural to some people to point out that both sides have encouraged each other to become more violent. It was really only a matter of time before someone was killed.

Maybe it is better to just condemn one group at a time. The right wing people at Charlottesville should be blamed for what happened and their actions and flags and chants, and their entire ideology, should be condemned.

Trying to create a like with like scenario is an attempt to excuse or normalise white supremacy. Right wing people are fine. The white supremacists who took part in the white supremacist rally are not.
Comparisons to antifa are whataboutery, (also this was not a two group rally rather a collection of people protesting against racists). We don't get to 'whatabout' racism. It's not acceptable and trying to make comparisons is an attempt to normalise it, as is talk of 'both sides' There was no other side marching against white people and their rights. There is no 'ALT-Left' working from within the domestic US, marching and calling for less rights for whites, trying to marginalise or make whites lesser.

The Legend Of Kira

wes wrote: »

https://twitter.com/make_ready/status/897899970501541888

<SNIP>

Saruhashi

For Reals wrote: »

Trying to create a like with like scenario is an attempt to excuse or normalise white supremacy. Right wing people are fine. The white supremacists who took part in the white supremacist rally are not.
Comparisons to antifa are whataboutery, (also this was not a two group rally rather a collection of people protesting against racists). We don't get to 'whatabout' racism. It's not acceptable and trying to make comparisons is an attempt to normalise it, as is talk of 'both sides' There was no other side marching against white people and their rights. There is no 'ALT-Left' working from within the domestic US, marching and calling for less rights for whites, trying to marginalise or make whites lesser.

I agree. 100%.

I don't think people are doing this on purpose though.

Most people are strongly against racism. Even more are strongly against this extreme white supremacy rhetoric.

Most people also don't want to have their neighborhood smashed up or have their car set on fire.

It's kind of obvious that many people will see who was involved in the trouble and conclude that they want nothing to do with any of those groups.

It's not whataboutery at all. Some people just hate both groups.

The groups here are not comparable, that's 100% true. They have very different motivations and very different goals. It's plain to see that the far right crowd are objectively worse than their opponents. That doesn't make their opponents good people.

I wouldn't want my hometown to be overrun by these neo-Nazi idiots but equally I wouldn't want to have my car smashed up by left wing protesters.

Is that saying one side is just as bad as the other? NO. People should be allowed to dislike both groups here.

I don't think this is the time or place to criticize Antifa or BLM but they should not be above criticism.

WW2 keeps coming up. There were Pacifists in WW2 but these people were anti-war and anti-violence. They were not Nazi sympathizers.

Danzy

For Reals wrote: »

Violence shouldn't be tolerated. White supremacy is geared towards putting one set of people above another. You cannot dismiss this nor normalise this as you seem to be attempting to do. Two wrongs don't excuse an ALT-Right.
All the antifa bad press, video, photos in the world will not normalise or excuse the racist rally that resulted in murder.
White supremacy stands alone in it's ideology of hate and is to be abhorred.

So saying hit the Nazi with an Iron bar to the head is trying to minimize or normalize them, Jeeze but you must have grown up rough.

That ends up with a man as a vegetable or a corpse, if that is excusing, then wow.

Supremacist ideologies are always wrong, I have no problem agreeing with that.

My point it that the Assholes in Antifa and the Assholes with their Swastikas are closer to each other than most people are, they both need to be challenged and challenged hard by society. Especially the Working Class, both of them talk a great game about empowering the Proletariat but their track record, on each side is tens of millions of dead, and the most horrendous crimes and wrongs against humanity.

I'm not going to argue against you working the Nazi with a bar for 20 minutes but the Antifa will also deserve at least 10. Forget the ideological veneer that they use. If you spent 30 minutes in your life at that, you'd have done more to ensure a safer and better society for all than most.

Which is worse for a community Crystal Meth or Heroin?

Saruhashi

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Myself + some others on this thread have said "extremists from both sides " - " condemn both equally " pointing out an observation that extremists on both sides exists isn,t trying to defend anyone, any group that displays banners such as " more dead cops " are extremists , no other word to describe them other then extremists .

Fine, but there is surely a better time or place to criticize them? It creates a false equivalence to describe these groups as opposing "sides".

Almost everyone is opposed to neo-Nazis etc but that's different to being opposed to political violence. There's an Antifa vs Nazis argument but that's not the same as a non-violence vs violence argument.

You are arguing in favor of "non-violence" yeah? Opposing white supremacists and opposing violent protests are two very different things and they really shouldn't be mixed together.

I feel like the main focus of criticism in the wake of Charlottesville should be the rise of white supremacy movements. Bringing political violence into the mix just confuses the issue. I do not think that "what about..." is a good approach.

Chips Lovell

First of all, this thread is not about Brexit. We've a Brexit thread for that and also a thread about Brexit's impact on Northern Ireland. So plenty of places to talk about Brexit.

Secondly, the topic of the thread is about the weekend's events Charlottesville. There's people posting pictures of stuff from completely different demonstrations held several years ago. Misleading posts/misinformation is against the forum charter.

Thirdly, we've started handing out cards for below standards posts. As we warned already, if you're just looking for a row, look elsewhere.

Thanks

Saruhashi

wes wrote: »

For those still trying to defend Nazi's. Again, there is no comparison.

Haven't really seen anyone defending Nazi's here on Boards.

I've seen people misguidedly trying to criticize both sides but I don't believe you should equate that to defense of Nazis. It seems a bit sneaky to be honest.

marcus001

wes wrote: »

https://twitter.com/make_ready/status/897899970501541888

For those still trying to defend Nazi's. Again, there is no comparison.

I don't think people are defending those who instigated violence. But I've seen more than enough footage of Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in with padlocks to have turned permanently sour. I'm sure those Antifas enjoyed being the hero that day just as much as they would enjoy cracking open someone's skull any other day. They're thugs, pure and simple. As the post says, they did what the police should have been doing, or rather what the police would be doing if they weren't tasked with controlling two crowds of hooligans. Antifa showed up to at Trump rallies to cause violence, I highly doubt they went to a Nazi gathering to be the noble defenders.

Danzy

Saruhashi wrote: »

Fine, but there is surely a better time or place to criticize them? It creates a false equivalence to describe these groups as opposing "sides".

Almost everyone is opposed to neo-Nazis etc but that's different to being opposed to political violence. There's an Antifa vs Nazis argument but that's not the same as a non-violence vs violence argument.

You are arguing in favor of "non-violence" yeah? Opposing white supremacists and opposing violent protests are two very different things and they really shouldn't be mixed together.

I feel like the main focus of criticism in the wake of Charlottesville should be the rise of white supremacy movements. Bringing political violence into the mix just confuses the issue. I do not think that "what about..." is a good approach.

The mindset of both these groups was old long before you or I were born. A better time or place, is long past, if it was ever there, these are sides that come with a long and unimaginably brutal history,we should not pretend that Antifa are the bad here and the Nazis the wronged party or vice versa, they are different but very similar in many ways and both need to be strongly opposed because they offer nothing but ruination in the long term.

mynamejeff

Saruhashi wrote: »

Haven't really seen anyone defending Nazi's here on Boards.

I've seen people misguidedly trying to criticize both sides but I don't believe you should equate that to defense of Nazis. It seems a bit sneaky to be honest.

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

marcus001

mynamejeff wrote: »

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

Because believing that the state should outlaw all private property isn't seen as a dangerous idea on par with Nazism by people who don't know their history.

Saruhashi

mynamejeff wrote: »

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

They should be but there has to be a right time and place.

The right wing extremists are clearly in the wrong regarding events at the weekend and I'd even argue that Antifa were doing what they claim be doing on this occasion, opposing Fascists.

This was a genuine Neo-Nazi rally. There's no getting around that.

Chips Lovell

Brexit posts now moved to the Brexit thread

Danzy

mynamejeff wrote: »

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

Because in power one side obsesses over controlling thought and action of its citizens and kills it founding members and tens of millions and the other side obsesses over controlling thought and action of its citizens and kills it founding members and tens of millions. Both exhibit the same personality traits.

The key difference is they read different books, that is the only difference when it boils down.

oscarBravo

marcus001 wrote: »

Because believing that the state should outlaw all private property isn't seen as a dangerous idea on par with Nazism by people who don't know their history.

Are you arguing that the people who opposed the fascists in Charlottesville are advocating the elimination of private property? Because that's an incredible stretch.

And if that's not your argument - if you're trying to make a point about communists in general - what does it have to do with Charlottesville?

20Cent

mynamejeff wrote: »

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

One side wants people to be called by their preferred pronouns and stop Ann Coulter or Milo speaking at their college.
The other wants to kill all the Jews and other minorities in a 4th Reich.


Bit like saying a kid kicking over a sandcastle is the same as bombing Hiroshima.

Danzy

20Cent wrote: »

One side wants people to be called by their preferred pronouns and stop Ann Coulter or Milo speaking at their college.
The other wants to kill all the Jews and other minorities in a 4th Reich.


Bit like saying a kid kicking over a sandcastle is the same as bombing Hiroshima.

Unfortunately, groups like Antida have muddied the waters for those opposing fascist thugs, historically that type of person has killed as many as the fascist.

The enemy of my enemy can be my friend but these 2 subsets don't differ in corpses.

VinLieger

marcus001 wrote: »

Because believing that the state should outlaw all private property isn't seen as a dangerous idea on par with Nazism by people who don't know their history.

Im yet to see Antifa or BLM call for the outlawing of private property, do you have verified quotes to back this up?

20Cent

Danzy wrote: »

Unfortunately, groups like Antida have muddied the waters for those opposing fascist thugs, historically that type of person has killed as many as the fascist.

The enemy of my enemy can be my friend but these 2 subsets don't differ in corpses.

Thats assuming antifa are all or want communism which they don't. Only one side is muddying the waters here.

Chips Lovell

More cards have been handed out. As I said last time, stick to the topic at hand, which is what happened at the weekend.

If this thread just descends into laundry lists of bad things right wing and left wing identifying people did at any point in history, there's little point in keeping it open.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Anyone know what the hell the police were doing funnelling the Nazi gurriers from the Park into the direction of the Antifa and BLM thugs.

Like fire and gasoline. It's a wonder there wasn't more deaths.

Brian?

20Cent wrote: »

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
You can literally show them a group of nazi's charging into a crowd attacking them and the answer is but but but antifa. No wonder Donald got elected.

I call it the "But Hillary response".

manual_man

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

For Reals

Danzy wrote: »

So saying hit the Nazi with an Iron bar to the head is trying to minimize or normalize them, Jeeze but you must have grown up rough.

That ends up with a man as a vegetable or a corpse, if that is excusing, then wow.

Why are you intentionally trying to muddy the waters here?
Not my quote, not my point.

You are right back on the putting a group of racists on par with the rest of us by using the negative examples of a few.

Danzy wrote: »

Supremacist ideologies are always wrong, I have no problem agreeing with that.

...but

Danzy wrote: »

My point it that the Assholes in Antifa and the Assholes with their Swastikas are closer to each other than most people are, they both need to be challenged and challenged hard by society. Especially the Working Class, both of them talk a great game about empowering the Proletariat but their track record, on each side is tens of millions of dead, and the most horrendous crimes and wrongs against humanity.

I'm not going to argue against you working the Nazi with a bar for 20 minutes but the Antifa will also deserve at least 10. Forget the ideological veneer that they use. If you spent 30 minutes in your life at that, you'd have done more to ensure a safer and better society for all than most.

Which is worse for a community Crystal Meth or Heroin?

You cannot seem to see that you are excusing racism by looking to whataboutery.
You are equating violent behaviour with white supremacists whose, as well as being capable of violence, only goal is to treat others as lesser humans than themselves often with horrifying results. Do you not see that?

pitifulgod

manual_man wrote: »

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

It is literally the definition of false equivalence to equate white supremacists with antifa. Antifa don't support anything equivalent to an ethnostate, they do not engage in hate speech. They have tactics that many disagree with for credible reasons. Secondly, they were not responsible for the events that occurred on Saturday.

People on this thread have claimed the rally wasn't one of fascists, they have tried to diminish it as traditional conservatives with some bad elements. Every single person who attended that rally are condoning the likes of the KKK and Neo Nazis. They are very much so not "good people". Meanwhile the counter protesters oppose them, fair play to them.

The Legend Of Kira

20Cent wrote: »

One side wants people to be called by their preferred pronouns and stop Ann Coulter or Milo speaking at their college.
The other wants to kill all the Jews and other minorities in a 4th Reich.


Bit like saying a kid kicking over a sandcastle is the same as bombing Hiroshima.

The thing is some people wanted to hear Milo + Ann Coulter speak at their local colleges : what about their rights ; what about their rights ? Who exactly appointed Antifa as high judge to decide for everyone else who they can or can't hear speak at their local college ? If you wanted to go to a public meeting hosted by say Paul Murphy or Ruth Coppinger ; I disagree with both of them politically ; but just because I disagree with them does that give me the right to organise a mob shut down their public meeting and prevent you from hearing them speak ?

Tony EH

manual_man wrote: »

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

Because people who come out and say "but what about", in regards to situations like these usually do so to excuse a side they find attractive.

Comparing and contrasting things is fine. But, the criteria has to be established before one can do so.

However, what we have here are two different things. One the one hand we have a group whose political beliefs includes marginalising (and up to exterminating) those they find racially and ethinically undesirable. Elements that people can't control. One cannot have a say about the colour they are born with, or the racial background they find themselves part of. Accidents of birth are never a legitimate reason for targeting anybody.

And on the other hand we have a group that oppose fascistic politcial ideologies, including the ones outlined above.

While, at times their methods may cross over in a violent way, there is absolutely nothing else by which a valid comparison can be made.

Antifa can be criticised for their violence. But they cannot be used as an excuse for a neo-nazi world view.

That's why it's a 'false equivalence'.

oscarBravo

manual_man wrote: »

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

"...on many sides. On many sides."

The problem with refusing to single out Nazis for condemnation is the same as the problem with retorting "all lives matter" to "black lives matter". It's dilution through generalisation.

It's also far too easy to sweep up any point of view you disagree with into the blanket condemnation. In a thread about an honest-to-god Nazi parade in an American town, we've seen several instances of the phrase "BLM thugs". The people who use that phrase, and the people who abet them by objecting to the calling out of Nazis for special condemnation, are working to equate the demand that black people be treated as equals with a philosophy that consciously set out to exterminate entire ethnic groups.

So, no: I won't be blending Nazis in with people who oppose fascism and people who disagree with police murdering black people for a wishy-washy blanket condemnation. I'll leave that to the shaved ape in the Oval Office.

20Cent

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The thing is some people wanted to hear Milo + Ann Coulter speak at their local colleges : what about their rights ; what about their rights ? Who exactly appointed Antifa as high judge to decide for everyone else who they can or can't hear speak at their local college ? If you wanted to go to a public meeting hosted by say Paul Murphy or Ruth Coppinger ; I disagree with both of them politically ; but just because I disagree with them does that give me the right to organise a mob shut down their public meeting and prevent you from hearing them speak ?

Missing out on a talk isn't really comparable to mass murder and genocide is it?

For Reals

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The thing is some people wanted to hear Milo + Ann Coulter speak at their local colleges : what about their rights ; what about their rights ? Who exactly appointed Antifa as high judge to decide for everyone else who they can or can't hear speak at their local college ? If you wanted to go to a public meeting hosted by say Paul Murphy or Ruth Coppinger ; I disagree with both of them politically ; but just because I disagree with them does that give me the right to organise a mob shut down their public meeting and prevent you from hearing them speak ?

But it does. You have the right to do that.
As did the decent people who protested against the white supremacists.

Ronaldinho

I can't help thinking a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with all of this.

I've seen someone's back of the envelope calculations on the number of active participants in white supremacy/KKK type organisations and they put it at like <0.1% of the US population. I'm guessing 90%+ of people would have absolutely no sympathy for any extreme intolerance these fringe groups might harbour. Or am I naive? Yet there's 50+ pages of posts here - I don't they're deserving of anything like this amount of attention.

I myself would hold these far-right groups in contempt and if any group such as Antifa take exception to this then by all means let them protest, but allowing it to happen the same day and same location is just asking for trouble.

I know very little of American history and even less about how the legacy of slavery and racial segregation affects US people today. If these 'wounds' are still raw and there's a quorum for those in favour of taking down some of these statues then it's a debate that should be had. But the reaction to the recent events all seems a bit hasty.

I'm not sure what good is achieved by dredging up the injustices done 100+ years ago, apart from giving us an appreciation that we live in much more enlightened times today. Or at least I think we do. We're better served by looking forward and trying to build a better future and I'd see much of this week's bickering as a distraction.

For Reals

Ronaldinho wrote: »

I can't help thinking a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with all of this.

I've seen someone's back of the envelope calculations on the number of active participants in white supremacy/KKK type organisations and they put it at like <0.1% of the US population. I'm guessing 90%+ of people would have absolutely no sympathy for any extreme intolerance these fringe groups might harbour. Or am I naive? Yet there's 50+ pages of posts here - I don't they're deserving of anything like this amount of attention.

I myself would hold these far-right groups in contempt and if any group such as Antifa take exception to this then by all means let them protest, but allowing it to happen the same day and same location is just asking for trouble.

I know very little of American history and even less about how the legacy of slavery and racial segregation affects US people today. If these 'wounds' are still raw and there's a quorum for those in favour of taking down some of these statues then it's a debate that should be had. But the reaction to the recent events all seems a bit hasty.

I'm not sure what good is achieved by dredging up the injustices done 100+ years ago, apart from giving us an appreciation that we live in much more enlightened times today. Or at least I think we do. We're better served by looking forward and trying to build a better future and I'd see much of this week's bickering as a distraction.

How many is racists is too many?
With Trump in power, it's more important than ever that decent members of society stand up to racists.
Leaving the statues up or the confederate flags flying is a constant for injustices done 100+ years ago. The only dredging is by the racists using this as a vehicle. The city council voted to remove the Lee statue.

Christy42

Ronaldinho wrote: »

I can't help thinking a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with all of this.

I've seen someone's back of the envelope calculations on the number of active participants in white supremacy/KKK type organisations and they put it at like <0.1% of the US population. I'm guessing 90%+ of people would have absolutely no sympathy for any extreme intolerance these fringe groups might harbour. Or am I naive? Yet there's 50+ pages of posts here - I don't they're deserving of anything like this amount of attention.

I myself would hold these far-right groups in contempt and if any group such as Antifa take exception to this then by all means let them protest, but allowing it to happen the same day and same location is just asking for trouble.

I know very little of American history and even less about how the legacy of slavery and racial segregation affects US people today. If these 'wounds' are still raw and there's a quorum for those in favour of taking down some of these statues then it's a debate that should be had. But the reaction to the recent events all seems a bit hasty.

I'm not sure what good is achieved by dredging up the injustices done 100+ years ago, apart from giving us an appreciation that we live in much more enlightened times today. Or at least I think we do. We're better served by looking forward and trying to build a better future and I'd see much of this week's bickering as a distraction.

Given it resulted in a terrorist attack (like the mosque in Canada, like the attack on the train that left two stabbed and a mass of other incidents linked here by OscarBravo) I think it is a big deal as those few people are causing a lot of damage.

Ronaldinho

Christy42 wrote: »

Given it resulted in a terrorist attack (like the mosque in Canada, like the attack on the train that left two stabbed and a mass of other incidents linked here by OscarBravo) I think it is a big deal as those few people are causing a lot of damage.

Fair enough - I wasn't aware that it was as pervasive a problem as you're saying. Then an obvious choice would be to ban some of these as illegal organisations to try and stamp them out entirely, but that probably falls foul of the Constitution?

manual_man

pitifulgod wrote: »

It is literally the definition of false equivalence to equate white supremacists with antifa. Antifa don't support anything equivalent to an ethnostate, they do not engage in hate speech. They have tactics that many disagree with for credible reasons. Secondly, they were not responsible for the events that occurred on Saturday.

People on this thread have claimed the rally wasn't one of fascists, they have tried to diminish it as traditional conservatives with some bad elements. Every single person who attended that rally are condoning the likes of the KKK and Neo Nazis. They are very much so not "good people". Meanwhile the counter protesters oppose them, fair play to them.

You're totally missing the point I made. I'm personally not making comparisons of the bigotry that exists on both sides of the political debate. I find bigotry and hatred in all it's form abhorrent. And I find it astonishing that some people are seemingly very reluctant to simply agree on this point - instead constantly seeking to compare, as if to say "well I believe this type of shít is worse, so let's only worry about that!". It's a childish and dangerous viewpoint to adopt, because if we only focus on one type of bigotry and ignore others, then the ones we ignore will become bigger and more aggressive and intolerant. Evil takes it's shape in many different forms and I think that's something many people are finding difficult to grasp. It's just my wish that people keep their eyes open and seek to tackle hatred in ALL it's forms.

Peace out!

Samaris

manual_man wrote: »

You're totally missing the point I made. I'm personally not making comparisons of the bigotry that exists on both sides of the political debate. I find bigotry and hatred in all it's form abhorrent. And I find it astonishing that some people are seemingly very reluctant to simply agree on this point - instead constantly seeking to compare, as if to say "well I believe this type of shít is worse, so let's only worry about that!". It's a childish and dangerous viewpoint to adopt, because if we only focus on one type of bigotry and ignore others, then the ones we ignore will become bigger and more aggressive and intolerant. Evil takes it's shape in many different forms and I think that's something many people are finding difficult to grasp. It's just my wish that people keep their eyes open and seek to tackle hatred in ALL it's forms.

Peace out!

Which is all very well, but when Nazis are marching down the street, emboldening others to commit the 28 (minimum) murders, 58 (minimum) injuries and countless threats, intimidation, bomb threats and other general assholeishness that has come from the extreme right this year alone, it is worth focusing on the goddamn Nazis.

Yes, there are other groups that do bad things, including Antifa. But right now, there are Nazis demanding "their" country back - and "their" country is a country with no room for minorities, transgenders, gay people, liberals, academics or anyone that disagrees with them. (Women are allowed for breeding purposes).

What you are doing is the equivalent of looking at a murder scene and saying "well, there are other murders so I don't know why you're all so focused on this one". Because it is here, it is now and what is going on currently is a clear and present danger

The Legend Of Kira

20Cent wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The thing is some people wanted to hear Milo + Ann Coulter speak at their local colleges : what about their rights ; what about their rights ? Who exactly appointed Antifa as high judge to decide for everyone else who they can or can't hear speak at their local college ? If you wanted to go to a public meeting hosted by say Paul Murphy or Ruth Coppinger ; I disagree with both of them politically ; but just because I disagree with them does that give me the right to organise a mob shut down their public meeting and prevent you from hearing them speak ?

""  Missing out on a talk isn't really comparable to mass murder and genocide is it? ""

""  mass murder and genocide is it? "" 

If Milo or Ann Coulter ever called for "" mass murder and genocide "" you d have a point,  however I can,t find either one of them on the public record of either of them calling for "" mass murder and genocide "" .

20Cent

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

""  mass murder and genocide is it? "" 

If Milo or Ann Coulter ever called for "" mass murder and genocide "" you d have a point,  however I can,t find either one of them on the public record of either of them calling for "" mass murder and genocide "" .

It's in reference to comparing antifa to nazis not Coulter or Milo.

manual_man

oscarBravo wrote: »

"...on many sides. On many sides."

The problem with refusing to single out Nazis for condemnation is the same as the problem with retorting "all lives matter" to "black lives matter". It's dilution through generalisation.

It's also far too easy to sweep up any point of view you disagree with into the blanket condemnation. In a thread about an honest-to-god Nazi parade in an American town, we've seen several instances of the phrase "BLM thugs". The people who use that phrase, and the people who abet them by objecting to the calling out of Nazis for special condemnation, are working to equate the demand that black people be treated as equals with a philosophy that consciously set out to exterminate entire ethnic groups.

So, no: I won't be blending Nazis in with people who oppose fascism and people who disagree with police murdering black people for a wishy-washy blanket condemnation. I'll leave that to the shaved ape in the Oval Office.

Oh would you get off your high horse! Virtue signalling at it's very worst! Not to mention trying to misrepresent my words, which frankly is a disgusting thing to do! I couldn't have been more clear of my UNIVERSAL condemnation of all forms of bigotry, if it's beyond you to comprehend that that includes the neo nazi thugs and their despicable actions over the weekend, then that's on you, not me!

pitifulgod

manual_man wrote: »

Oh would you get off your high horse! Virtue signalling at it's very worst! Not to mention trying to misrepresent my words, which frankly is a disgusting thing to do! I couldn't have been more clear of my UNIVERSAL condemnation of all forms of bigotry, if it's beyond you to comprehend that that includes the neo nazi thugs and their despicable actions over the weekend, then that's on you, not me!

When you're making a Neo Nazi rally where one of them killed people as a reason to complain about Antifa is frankly bizarre. Only one side of that rally was populated by hateful bigots.