Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

Tony EH

You're just choosing to apply context according to your bias.

However, what you're proposing re: Neo-nazis and Antifa is thus:

Earth and Saturn are both planets, therefore we can live there.

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

You're just choosing to apply context according to your bias.

However, what you're proposing re: Neo-nazis and Antifa is thus:

Earth and Saturn are both planets, therefore we can live there.

It is more reasoned to despise Antifa and the Nazis together, a double deal on disliking authoritarian thugs.


Everything is not binary.

The Legend Of Kira

There is a free speech taking place in Boston today, even the Adl have publicly said & acknowledged.

[font=ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, serif]"" There are significant differences between what happened in Charlottesville and what’s scheduled for Boston. Unlike Charlottesville, the Boston event, as currently planned, is not a white supremacist gathering ""[/font]

[font=ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, serif]https://www.adl.org/blog/free-speech-rally-planned-for-boston[/font]

Despite the fact its not a gathering of that nature, some people have still decided to go ahead & label it as " white supremacist rally " .

https://www.facebook.com/events/252451831928409/?ref=br_rs

It will be telling what left wing groups do in Boston regarding a rally acknowledged by the Adl as" [font=ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, serif]not a white supremacist gathering "  .[/font]

Samaris

Good to see people conceding the obvious - that Charlottesville was a Nazi rally and not a collection of worried historians. People were dancing to avoid saying it for a bit there.

Saruhashi

Tony EH wrote: »

You're just choosing to apply context according to your bias.

However, what you're proposing re: Neo-nazis and Antifa is thus:

Earth and Saturn are both planets, therefore we can live there.

Doesn't this analogy just play to your own bias though?

Venus and Saturn are both planets and we can't survive on either of them. We might not even be able to survive much longer here on Earth.

Violence is not a good thing. If some people have found a way to justify it then they shoud be under THE MOST intense scrutiny to make sure that they are not getting out of hand. If they are caught attacking the wrong targets or even revelling in the violence they should be severly criticised and brought to justice themselves.

I don't really care if Antifa are battering Neo-Nazis so long as they are actually Neo-Nazis.

If innocent people are being caught up in Antifa violence? Unacceptable. Condemn them.

If Antifa are causing property damage etc in the name of beating up Fascists? Unacceptabe. Condemn them.

Don't hit me with the "whataboutery" nonesense. The thread title is "Violent Right-wing vs Left-wing Clashes in the US" so maybe, contrary to what I said here before, we SHOULD be condemning violence on all sides.

To be honest if you are not prepared to go out and inflict violence on the targets of Antifa yourself then you have no place supporting or even defending Antifa.

Spare me the WW2 references too. The people fighting the Nazis then were conscripted young men and many of them lost their lives in the fight. FFS many black Muslims were JAILED in the USA for refusing to fight the Nazis.

Nobody should be forced to fight in a battle if they don't want to and anyone who is cheering from the sidelines but isn't preared to fight is a goddamn coward.

Let people condemn both sides if that's what they think is right. I don't think you can criticise people for being anti-violence unless you think you are prepared to go and kill or be killed yourself.

Saruhashi

oscarBravo wrote: »

Most of our parents used violence to discipline us when we were growing up. Nazis used violence. Therefore, our parents were as bad as Nazis.

Yeah and for some of us our parents got carried away with that violence and messed us up for the rest of our lives. Broken kids trying to live normal, functional, lives but they can't because their parents "disciplined them growing up".
Some parents are as bad as anyone could imagine a human being to be. Hey, they are "not as bad as the Nazis" so it's all grand?

Are rapists worse than Nazis?
Murderers?
What about the Japanese in WW2? Worse than Nazis?
Communists?

When people overstep the line into violent action in order to achieve a goal then they should be condemned for that. It feels almost even WORSE if someone is inflicting uneccessary or unjust violence in the name of a good cause.

Stopping Neo-Nazis is a good cause. Using violence to stop Neo-Nazis might not be all that bad so long as it, A, actually works and, B, there is no collateral damage.

Considering how many abusive parents there are out there, your analogy is a goddamn disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself.

InTheTrees

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

There is a free speech taking place in Boston today

A massive anti nazi turn out so far and its only just started.

Apparently around 250 Nazi's planned on attending and they;re predicting 10,000 people showing up to oppose it.

#bostonresist

The Legend Of Kira

InTheTrees wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

There is a free speech taking place in Boston today

A massive anti nazi turn out so far and its only just started.

Apparently around 250 Nazi's planned on attending and they;re predicting 10,000 people showing up to oppose it.

#bostonresist

What part of the Adls statement can,t you get or understand ?

"" [font=ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, serif]There are significant differences between what happened in Charlottesville and what’s scheduled for Boston. Unlike Charlottesville, the Boston event, as currently planned, is not a white supremacist gathering "" [/font]

You should never cry wolf about stuff .

https://www.adl.org/blog/free-speech-rally-planned-for-boston

Saruhashi

Samaris wrote: »

Good to see people conceding the obvious - that Charlottesville was a Nazi rally and not a collection of worried historians. People were dancing to avoid saying it for a bit there.

I think it's better to call it a white supremacist rally or even just a racist rally to be honest as it forces those who are not quite in the full-on Nazi group to take some responsibility for what they are doing to their country.

I bet there are plenty who were there or who are watching what happened who genuinely think "well I wasn't waving Nazi flags or chanting those things so it doesn't apply to me". They will be saying that to each other, for sure.

Sure, we can say "if you are hanging out with people waving Nazi flags blah blah blah" but I think they won't listen.

We need to condemn "white nationalism" and "white supremacy" rather than condemn the "KKK" of "Nazis" because there are many who will just say "well, I'm not KKK or a Nazi so they aren't talking about me".

Some of these people actually think they can peacefully set up a "white ethnostate" and as a consequence can weasel out of the KKK or Nazi accusations claiming they are non-violent. They are not the KKK or the Neo-Nazis. They are white nationalists and they need to be forced to face criticism of their ideas. Instead we allow them to walk away saying "oh Neo-Nazis and the KKK hate me too" like Richard Spencer and his followers.

On top of that people getting hysterical about "Nazis" seems more like a pantomime than a serious politcial discussion. I think Sky and the BBC refer to them as "far right groups" and that feels a bit less Holywood and a bit more sensible and focussed.

Honestly think that calling them "Nazis" is allowing some of the more psuedo-intellectual types in their groups to outmaneuver the mainstream narrative.

Might be wrong there but avoiding the "Nazi Thug" stereotype seems to have been one of the main growth factors for people like Spencer etc.

pitifulgod

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

What part of the Adls statement can,t you get or understand ?

"" [font=ff-tisa-web-pro, Georgia, serif]There are significant differences between what happened in Charlottesville and what’s scheduled for Boston. Unlike Charlottesville, the Boston event, as currently planned, is not a white supremacist gathering "" [/font]

You should never cry wolf about stuff .

https://www.adl.org/blog/free-speech-rally-planned-for-boston

Still pretty hateful though and somewhat of an overlap, not exactly traditonal conservatives...

The alt lite, sometimes referred to as the New Right, is a loosely-connected movement whose adherents generally shun white supremacist thinking, but who are in step with the alt right in their hatred of feminists and immigrants, among others. Many within the alt lite sphere are virulently anti-Muslim; the group abhors everyone on “the left” and traffics in conspiracy theories.

But while the alt right and alt lite are theoretically distinct, there is crossover between them. There are a number of people and groups who walk the line between alt right and alt lite, to the extent that it’s not always easy – or even possible -- to tell which side they’re on. The Proud Boys, an alt lite, right-wing activist group founded by Gavin McInnes and dedicated to “Reinstating a Spirit of Western chauvinism,” is a good example of a group toeing that line. McInnes renounced the Charlottesville event as “racist,” but a number of Proud Boys were spotted at Unite the Right, including rally organizer Jason Kessler.

Anyway, looks like the counter protest turnout is gonna vastly outnumber the protest itself...

InTheTrees

Watching the live coverage now and they're saying the number opposed to the "free speeechers" may be as high as 20,000, at this point its not about the neo-nazi's anymore. They;re lost in the crowd somewhere.

All very peaceful regular ordinary citizens and higher numbers than trumps inaugural.

Christy42

Saruhashi wrote: »

Doesn't this analogy just play to your own bias though?

Venus and Saturn are both planets and we can't survive on either of them. We might not even be able to survive much longer here on Earth.

Violence is not a good thing. If some people have found a way to justify it then they shoud be under THE MOST intense scrutiny to make sure that they are not getting out of hand. If they are caught attacking the wrong targets or even revelling in the violence they should be severly criticised and brought to justice themselves.

I don't really care if Antifa are battering Neo-Nazis so long as they are actually Neo-Nazis.

If innocent people are being caught up in Antifa violence? Unacceptable. Condemn them.

If Antifa are causing property damage etc in the name of beating up Fascists? Unacceptabe. Condemn them.

Don't hit me with the "whataboutery" nonesense. The thread title is "Violent Right-wing vs Left-wing Clashes in the US" so maybe, contrary to what I said here before, we SHOULD be condemning violence on all sides.

To be honest if you are not prepared to go out and inflict violence on the targets of Antifa yourself then you have no place supporting or even defending Antifa.

Spare me the WW2 references too. The people fighting the Nazis then were conscripted young men and many of them lost their lives in the fight. FFS many black Muslims were JAILED in the USA for refusing to fight the Nazis.

Nobody should be forced to fight in a battle if they don't want to and anyone who is cheering from the sidelines but isn't preared to fight is a goddamn coward.

Let people condemn both sides if that's what they think is right. I don't think you can criticise people for being anti-violence unless you think you are prepared to go and kill or be killed yourself.

Imagine if leaders came out condemning all murders after the terrorist attack in Barcelona. They would be quite rightly taken apart, especially by the right, for ignoring the terrorist attack and brushing it under the carpet even though their statement technically includes the horrendous attack in Barcelona.

That is how I and many others see Trump's statements about the rally. (Not trying to bring this off topic, just felt it would be a nice parallel to how I feel about it that might explain it clearly, I am not interested in discussing the details of the Barcelona attack here).

20Cent

Nazi rally in Boston is over, 100 of them in a bandstand for 30 minutes surrounded by 20,000 counter protesters.

No trouble this time proves antifa only use violence when necessary.

The Legend Of Kira

Two Trump supporters wearing pro Trump clothing going about their business, getting called " nazi scum " so in other words anyone who supports Trump they label " nazis ".

https://twitter.com/JackSmithIV/status/898941587509706752

An African American woman displaying the American flag targeted by Antifa.

https://twitter.com/xBenJamminx/status/898940347056828417

Antifa attacking an Trump supporter who was walking about their business.

https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/898956266122362880

https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/898957397099560960

The Legend Of Kira

Antifa member talks about how she Assaulted a Trump Supporter and then plans on doing it again


https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/898958140166647809

Antifa EXPOSED by Throwing Rocks at Trump supporters,
Trump supporters dont throw back,

https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/898961852847185920

20Cent

FYI: The Legend Of Kira

https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/898963984228827136

DFGrange

20Cent wrote: »

Nazi rally in Boston is over, 100 of them in a bandstand for 30 minutes surrounded by 20,000 counter protesters.

No trouble this time proves antifa only use violence when necessary.

An outraged crowd of .001 of Irish people is outraged by the a crowd of .002 who disagree with Green lights for go and Red lights for stop.

0.0001 of anyone give a damn.

The Legend Of Kira

20Cent wrote: »

FYI: The Legend Of Kira

https://twitter.com/JoeySalads/status/898963984228827136

He should of said so sooner , that tweet only went up within last 4 minutes .

20Cent

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

He should of said so sooner , that tweet only went up within last 4 minutes .

He's a known race agitator.
He trolls for money.
Check out out his trump car stunt.
Horrible individual.

johnnyskeleton

DFGrange wrote: »

An outraged crowd of .001 of Irish people is outraged by the a crowd of .002 who disagree with Green lights for go and Red lights for stop.

0.0001 of anyone give a damn.

Mod note:

Constructive posts only please. That also goes for the twitter dumps above!

The Legend Of Kira

The Boston police done a far better job at policing two differents protests in the one area compared to others in the recent past .

The Legend Of Kira

Some fellow is giving an interview to the media expressing his view in favour of free speech , their response ? " nazis go home " so if you speak in favour of free speech now they will call you a " nazi " like myself  + some others pointed they just call anyone that doesn,t agree with them " nazis " as evidenced by their own video .


https://twitter.com/AntifaBoston/status/898938417085644800

Tony EH

Saruhashi wrote: »

Doesn't this analogy just play to your own bias though?

No. It's logic, not bias.

Just because Antifa and these Neo-nazis cross over on one point, doesn't mean they are the same.

As mentioned eariler, on the one side we have a group that will, at the very least, marginalise you and at the extreme end exterminate you because of the colour of your skin, your ethnic background, your creed and any other accident of birth they don't like that are beyond a person's control.

One the other we have a group that fights against such abhorrent beliefs.

One can condemn either side for their violence, but trying to pretend that they are the same is simply wrong. There are no two ways about it.

Saruhashi wrote: »

To be honest if you are not prepared to go out and inflict violence on the targets of Antifa yourself then you have no place supporting or even defending Antifa.

I haven't defended anyone. I am simply saying that trying to say that neo-nazis and antifa are the same thing is wrong. They are not "the same".

Saruhashi wrote: »

Spare me the WW2 references too. The people fighting the Nazis then were conscripted young men and many of them lost their lives in the fight. FFS many black Muslims were JAILED in the USA for refusing to fight the Nazis.

I don't think I've mentioned anything about WWII on this particular thread. But, trust me, there is nothing you can tell me about that conflict.

BTW, not all men who fought against Germany in the were "conscripted".

In any case, WWII or even the actual nazis don't belong in the same bracket as these neo-nazi cosplayers and wannabes, holding their Hakenkreuz shields and chanting odious drivel. If the real party was around today, they wouldn't even get a look in.

20Cent

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Some fellow is giving an interview to the media expressing his view in favour of free speech , their response ? " nazis go home " so if you speak in favour of free speech now they will call you a " nazi " like myself  + some others pointed they just call anyone that doesn,t agree with them " nazis " as evidenced by their own video .


https://twitter.com/AntifaBoston/status/898938417085644800

Dude Antifa Boston is a well known troll account.

Creative83

The far left are just as bad as the far right in my opinion... both are populated by eijits in the main

johnnyskeleton

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

The far left are just as bad as the far right in my opinion... both are populated by eijits in the main

Mod note:

Please read the charter before posting in this forum. Posts require more substance than this.

red ears

Antifa are simply labeling anyone on the right as nazi's. From real neo nazi's to ordinary Trump supporters to free speech advocates (including poc's and jews). How can people not see that Antifa will progress to the point where anyone who does not hold the same political belief as them will be considered an enemy and will be considered ripe for attack. The progression is already there for all to see. Its only going to get worse with the support being provided to them by some politicians and the msm.

I predict over the next year we are going to see a large scale attack on american historical monuments, historical figures, named buildings etc. We will end up seeing ordinary people who disagree with this erasure getting assaulted by antifa and probably BLM (although BLM will likely be absorbed into antifa as it provides cover for violence.) I think many people who aren't white nationalist in the slightest will become upset about the sort of attacks american history will come under over the next year or so.

Nody

red ears wrote: »

I predict over the next year we are going to see a large scale attack on american historical monuments, historical figures, named buildings etc. We will end up seeing ordinary people who disagree with this erasure getting assaulted by antifa and probably BLM (although BLM will likely be absorbed into antifa as it provides cover for violence.) I think many people who aren't white nationalist in the slightest will become upset about the sort of attacks american history will come under over the next year or so.

Quoted for history so I can refer back to this in a year to show you how utterly misguided your world view turned out to be. But fair is fair; I'm putting up the counter argument that white supremacists (to work as a general catch all from the nutty white wannabie NRA "soldiers" to the outright nazies) will have caused more terrorist attacks on American soil and will be seen as the more extreme of the two by the end of 2018 (to allow for statistical sources as they tend to measure in years). If Trump gets impeached I'd expect at least 1 major terrorist plot ala Oklahoma to happen or get stopped from such a group.

Let's see who's world view turns out to be true as we obviously have quite a difference in opinion on it.

marcus001

Danzy wrote: »

It is more reasoned to despise Antifa and the Nazis together, a double deal on disliking authoritarian thugs.


Everything is not binary.

This. Its the authoritarianism that gets me really. I don't like bullies. I don't even like bullies who bully bullies.

marcus001

red ears wrote: »

Antifa are simply labeling anyone on the right as nazi's. .

There's a real dangerous trend I've noticed from even sources I thought were reputable. The south poverty law centre has Maajid Nawas listed as an anti-muslim bigot. For those who don't know Maajid is Muslim, a former extremist turned moderate Liberal Democrat who advises the government on counter terrorism. And they put him on what was essentially a hit list.

The Legend Of Kira

Nody wrote: »

red ears wrote: »

I predict over the next year we are going to see a large scale attack on american historical monuments, historical figures, named buildings etc. We will end up seeing ordinary people who disagree with this erasure getting assaulted by antifa and probably BLM (although BLM will likely be absorbed into antifa as it provides cover for violence.) I think many people who aren't white nationalist in the slightest will become upset about the sort of attacks american history will come under over the next year or so.

Quoted for history so I can refer back to this in a year to show you how utterly misguided your world view turned out to be. But fair is fair; I'm putting up the counter argument that white supremacists (to work as a general catch all from the nutty white wannabie NRA "soldiers" to the outright nazies) will have caused more terrorist attacks on American soil and will be seen as the more extreme of the two by the end of 2018 (to allow for statistical sources as they tend to measure in years). If Trump gets impeached I'd expect at least 1 major terrorist plot ala Oklahoma to happen or get stopped from such a group.

Let's see who's world view turns out to be true as we obviously have quite a difference in opinion on it.

"" Quoted for history so I can refer back to this in a year to show you how utterly misguided your world view turned out to be "" 

Red Ears in correct in his/her assessment when he/she said 

"" Antifa are simply labeling anyone on the right as nazi's. From real neo nazi's to ordinary Trump supporters to free speech advocates ""

The Boston free speech rally publicly acknowledged by the Adl as "" not a gathering of white supremacists "" got labelled by the left as "" a white supremacist rally "" + footage online from it of ordinary Trump supporters going about their business being called as guess what ? "" nazis "" their actions prove RedEars point .

Christy42

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" Quoted for history so I can refer back to this in a year to show you how utterly misguided your world view turned out to be "" 

Red Ears in correct in his/her assessment when he/she said 

"" Antifa are simply labeling anyone on the right as nazi's. From real neo nazi's to ordinary Trump supporters to free speech advocates ""

The Boston free speech rally publicly acknowledged by the Adl as "" not a gathering of white supremacists "" got labelled by the left as "" a white supremacist rally "" + footage online from it of ordinary Trump supporters going about their business being called as guess what ? "" nazis "" their actions prove RedEars point .

He is quoting for the assault on public buildings part. The jury is out on whether the rally was peaceful cos they were outnumbered and starting a fight would have ended badly for them.

No violence from Antifa I note *who would have had bigger numbers). The turn out to oppose them was encouraging though. Obviously the Nazis being in the previous rally spurred people on to show opposition to them.

Nody

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

their actions prove RedEars point .[/font][/size]

Where are then the antifa assaults he claimed would happen to prove his point or did you miss this part?

We will end up seeing ordinary people who disagree with this erasure getting assaulted by antifa and probably BLM (although BLM will likely be absorbed into antifa as it provides cover for violence.)

After all with a 20:1 ratio of protesters the Antifa should have easily won any attack to prove this point or are you trying to fall back on that the fact the protesters were there is an assault?

ancapailldorcha

Posts deleted. No more Twitter link dumping.

Samaris

There were a couple of incidents - no deaths or injuries, thank heavens. When you get 30-40,000 people more or less unplanned in one place with feelings running high, yes, there will be the odd incident. Fortunately, the vast majority were peaceful.

BLM (who are not domestic terrorists) were hardly rampaging through the streets eating Trump supporters. In the context of Charlottesville, the free speech rally right then and there was asking to be labelled as being pro- the Nazi and KKK side that were in Charlottesville, so yes, it's no wonder people were angry.

In terms of free speech, this is turning into "how far is it allowed to go". When the president and his administration are actively attempting to limit the rights of minorities and non-whites, the people do not trust KKK rallies and do not trust rallies to defend the KKK's right to advocate domination of other races and up to and including genocide and slavery. That is why the voice of the people was heard much more clearly by 30-40,000 protesters aligning against the voice of the couple of hundred (at best) at the "free speech" rally, who was, let it be added, mostly comprised of actual supremacists, Trump supporters (let me point out again that the administration is doing its best to limit actual freedom of many American citizens) and people who support white supremacists getting to spew their hate speech and worse against fellow citizens. It's the ugly side of free speech and tensions are high enough that many people want it limited. If your free speech rally is disturbingly close to a rights of white supremacists to white supremacist at people, yeah, people are going to not like it.

Europe has limited free speech laws and has usually gotten along pretty well with them. I wonder is it because Europe has seen what comes of people marching through the streets chanting "Jew! Jew!" and waving swastikas?

(I have made my views on Antifa blindingly obvious (that I do not approve of them) in most other posts so far, so please take that as read.)

Billy86

<snip - stop commenting on moderation in thread>


Seems the mayor of Boston would disagree about the protesters being racist, white supremacists and anti-Semites.

https://twitter.com/ABCPolitics/status/899021258599182336

Boston's police commissioner seems to share the same sentiment, calling the 'Free Speech' crowd bigots and noting that 99.9% of people were there for the right reasons.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/347237-boston-police-commissioner-999-percent-of-protesters-here-for

"Ninety-nine point nine percent of the people here were here for the right reason, and that's to fight bigotry and hate for the most part here today," Evans said.

Thousands of counterdemonstrators turned out Saturday to protest an event billed as a "Free Speech Rally." The demonstrations came a week after violence erupted in Charlottesville, Va., as white nationalist and neo-Nazi groups gathered in the usually quiet college town.

BabyCheeses

An organiser of the nazi rally has come out and said that the woman's death was payback for communism. <snip - trolling>

He has since blamed hacking and drugs for the tweet.

AnGaelach

Samaris wrote: »

In terms of free speech, this is turning into "how far is it allowed to go". When the president and his administration are actively attempting to limit the rights of minorities and non-whites

What? Have you a source for that? Presumably you're talking about them wanting to remove affirmative action, but you're aware that the group most ardently in support of its removal are non-white Asians?

Samaris wrote: »

Europe has limited free speech laws and has usually gotten along pretty well with them. I wonder is it because Europe has seen what comes of people marching through the streets chanting "Jew! Jew!" and waving swastikas?

I'd hardly hold Europe up as the beacon of civilisation when 55% of us want to ban all Muslim immigration (and more people are indifferent about it than think it's a bad idea, 25% to 20% resp.).

The Legend Of Kira

If twitter links aren,t to be posted, I hope 1 youtube link is alright .

From those still saying the Boston free speech rally was a " white supremacist rally " take a good look at one of the main speakers , An Indian american ( Shiva Ayyadurai&#160 ) have a listen to what he actually said,  not  " white supremacist rally " stop misrepresenting stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9X2ZRB9GCU

The Legend Of Kira

Nody wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

their actions prove RedEars point .[/font][/size]

""Where are then the antifa assaults he claimed would happen to prove his point or did you miss this part?

We will end up seeing ordinary people who disagree with this erasure getting assaulted by antifa and probably BLM (although BLM will likely be absorbed into antifa as it provides cover for violence.)

"" After all with a 20:1 ratio of protesters the Antifa should have easily won any attack to prove this point or are you trying to fall back on that the fact the protesters were there is an assault? ""

There was one assault an elderly African American targeted for the crime of bringing an American flag to the rally, videos online, main reason things didn,t end up like Berkeley or past events was down due to the big Police presence who done an excellent job at policing the event .

Fr Tod Umptious

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

If twitter links aren,t to be posted, I hope 1 youtube link is alright .

From those still saying the Boston free speech rally was a " white supremacist rally " take a good look at one of the main speakers , An Indian american ( Shiva Ayyadurai  ) have a listen to what he actually said,  not  " white supremacist rally " stop misrepresenting stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9X2ZRB9GCU

Yes that's what it ended up being.

No KKK, no malitia, no sudo Nazi symbols.

The counter protest looked more menacing than the original protest.

BillyBobBS

BLM are a hate group. Antifa are a hate group. KKK are a hate group.

They all deserve the right to free speech and to gather without the threat of violence.

pitifulgod

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

There was one assault an elderly African American targeted for the crime of bringing an American flag to the rally, videos online, main reason things didn,t end up like Berkeley or past events was down due to the big Police presence who done an excellent job at policing the event .

Kirra, you literally posted a load of videos that weren't from Boston as proof of violence. 40,000 or thereabouts showed up and it occurred in a largely peaceful fashion, it would seem since it occurred in a peaceful fashion, that you're engaging in confirmation bias.

BillyBobBS wrote: »

BLM are a hate group. Antifa are a hate group. KKK are a hate group.

They all deserve the right to free speech and to gather without the threat of violence.

BLM have more in common with historical civil rights groups than hate groups. They're grassroots groups that came to be as a result of racial inequality in the US, in particular police brutality. They have behave in a largely peaceful manner and condemn acts of violence.

The Legend Of Kira

Samaris wrote: »

There were a couple of incidents - no deaths or injuries, thank heavens. When you get 30-40,000 people more or less unplanned in one place with feelings running high, yes, there will be the odd incident. Fortunately, the vast majority were peaceful.

BLM (who are not domestic terrorists) were hardly rampaging through the streets eating Trump supporters. In the context of Charlottesville, the free speech rally right then and there was asking to be labelled as being pro- the Nazi and KKK side that were in Charlottesville, so yes, it's no wonder people were angry.

In terms of free speech, this is turning into "how far is it allowed to go". When the president and his administration are actively attempting to limit the rights of minorities and non-whites, the people do not trust KKK rallies and do not trust rallies to defend the KKK's right to advocate domination of other races and up to and including genocide and slavery. That is why the voice of the people was heard much more clearly by 30-40,000 protesters aligning against the voice of the couple of hundred (at best) at the "free speech" rally, who was, let it be added, mostly comprised of actual supremacists, Trump supporters (let me point out again that the administration is doing its best to limit actual freedom of many American citizens) and people who support white supremacists getting to spew their hate speech and worse against fellow citizens. It's the ugly side of free speech and tensions are high enough that many people want it limited. If your free speech rally is disturbingly close to a rights of white supremacists to white supremacist at people, yeah, people are going to not like it.

Europe has limited free speech laws and has usually gotten along pretty well with them. I wonder is it because Europe has seen what comes of people marching through the streets chanting "Jew! Jew!" and waving swastikas?

(I have made my views on Antifa blindingly obvious (that I do not approve of them) in most other posts so far, so please take that as read.)

"" In terms of free speech, this is turning into "how far is it allowed to go". ""

I have often I think the lines should be drawn at Libel/ Defamation of character- inciting violence + inciting terrorism, I do not beleive in nor accept the so called concept of " hate speech " the idea of hate speech is no more legitimate then the idea of thoughtcrime,  unlike many of the left I don,t think anyone should be legally punished for expressing his/her opinion regardless of how distasteful or controversial someones opinion might be,  those on the left in favour of hate speech laws ought to be very very careful what they ask for because such laws can also used against the left for example when they call for boycotts of Israeli goods.

http://www.thetower.org/2479-french-high-court-bds-is-a-form-of-illegal-hate-speech/

InTheTrees

pitifulgod wrote: »

Kirra, you literally posted a load of videos that weren't from Boston as proof of violence. 40,000 or thereabouts showed up and it occurred in a largely peaceful fashion, it would seem since it occurred in a peaceful fashion, that you're engaging in confirmation bias.

Yes, they're saying there were 40,000 attending the anti-hate gathering.

Only 33 arrests and all minor, no reports of trouble or violence. Today the mayor and police chief thanked all those who attended.

The Legend Of Kira

pitifulgod wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

There was one assault an elderly African American targeted for the crime of bringing an American flag to the rally, videos online, main reason things didn,t end up like Berkeley or past events was down due to the big Police presence who done an excellent job at policing the event .

Kirra, you literally posted a load of videos that weren't from Boston as proof of violence. 40,000 or thereabouts showed up and it occurred in a largely peaceful fashion, it would seem since it occurred in a peaceful fashion, that you're engaging in confirmation bias.

BillyBobBS wrote: »

BLM are a hate group. Antifa are a hate group. KKK are a hate group.

They all deserve the right to free speech and to gather without the threat of violence.

BLM have more in common with historical civil rights groups than hate groups. They're grassroots groups that came to be as a result of racial inequality in the US, in particular police brutality. They have behave in a largely peaceful manner and condemn acts of violence.

""  Kirra, you literally posted a load of videos that weren't from Boston as proof of violence ""

The fellows videos I posted, he only later stated the videos he was posting weren,t from Boston, he didn,t say so at the start when he posted the videos .

20Cent

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" In terms of free speech, this is turning into "how far is it allowed to go". ""

I have often I think the lines should be drawn at Libel/ Defamation of character- inciting violence + inciting terrorism, I do not beleive in nor accept the so called concept of " hate speech " the idea of hate speech is no more legitimate then the idea of thoughtcrime,  unlike many of the left I don,t think anyone should be legally punished for expressing his/her opinion regardless of how distasteful or controversial someones opinion might be,  those on the left in favour of hate speech laws ought to be very very careful what they ask for because such laws can also used against the left for example when they call for boycotts of Israeli goods.

http://www.thetower.org/2479-french-high-court-bds-is-a-form-of-illegal-hate-speech/

How can you believe defemation and inciting violence are lines to be drawn but not hate speech!
Attack one person bad attack whole race fine. Makes no sense.

The Legend Of Kira

20Cent wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" In terms of free speech, this is turning into "how far is it allowed to go". ""

I have often I think the lines should be drawn at Libel/ Defamation of character- inciting violence + inciting terrorism, I do not beleive in nor accept the so called concept of " hate speech " the idea of hate speech is no more legitimate then the idea of thoughtcrime,  unlike many of the left I don,t think anyone should be legally punished for expressing his/her opinion regardless of how distasteful or controversial someones opinion might be,  those on the left in favour of hate speech laws ought to be very very careful what they ask for because such laws can also used against the left for example when they call for boycotts of Israeli goods.

http://www.thetower.org/2479-french-high-court-bds-is-a-form-of-illegal-hate-speech/

How can you believe defemation and inciting violence are lines to be drawn but not hate speech!
Attack one person bad attack whole race fine. Makes no sense.

Because I don,t believe in or accept the concept of hate speech aka thought crime, ( 1 ) untruths/lies about someone can damage a persons reputation which  I think should be a punishable offence, ( 2 ) inciting violence you re advocating to physically harm someone else  which  I think should be a punishable offence.

Whereas hate speech is almost anything & everything the left don,t like ranging from criticism of islam/advocating stronger border controls ,  over the years in Europe we have seen where hate speech laws can go from a Dutch politician being put on public trial over making a film critical of Islam to a woman in France faces a fine for daring to write about Halal slaughter condemning it, + I saved this for last from people in France on the left facing court for advocating a boycott of Israeli goods, as I said be be very very careful what you ask for because such laws can also used against the left.

pitifulgod

Do you think the chants in Charlottesville are not legitimate hate speech? Inciting hatred against groups was how the Nazis initially operated. So pre Kristallnacht etc, it was inciting hatred against groups. You wish to reduce that to thought crime?

The Legend Of Kira

pitifulgod wrote: »

Do you think the chants in Charlottesville are not legitimate hate speech? Inciting hatred against groups was how the Nazis initially operated. So pre Kristallnacht etc, it was inciting hatred against groups. You wish to reduce that to thought crime?

I saw that Vice news documentary & heard their chants which I strongly disagree with + strongly condemn, the problem is when one set of chants gets classed as hate speech if you have hate speech laws, is other speech can get classed as hate speech too also, once again to come back & point out in France people urging boycott of Israeli goods faced court over it under hate speech laws there, if we had similar hate speech laws would campaigns such as this

http://www.ipsc.ie/campaigns/consumer-boycott

 be allowed to publicly organise & operate ?  its a slippery slope.