Motorhome parking - by-laws in Dublin?

CubicleDweller

Is anyone aware of any by-laws that impose restrictions on the parking of motorhomes on streets in Dublin city?

For the past few weeks, we've kept our motorhome parked on a road on Dublin's northside. It's on a very wide, straight stretch of a tree-lined avenue. The van is not parked outside anyone's house. There are houses opposite, but the side where the van is parked is occupied by a field. (The houses opposite are at least 25 metres away, counting the very wide road and sizeable front gardens.) There are no yellow lines or signs showing parking restrictions.

Yesterday, we went away in the van for a few hours, leaving our car parked in its place. When we returned, we found a neatly-printed note in a plastic bag under the wipers of our car. It had a heading saying that it was from the local residents association, and included the names of the chairman and secretary. It said:

"This is to remind you that Parking of Campers/Caravans is not permitted on this road overnight, as per City Council Regulations."

So we've been trying to find these "City Council Regulations". We can't find anything that applies. The nearest we've found is the section on "Heavy Vehicles Parking Restrictions" at the bottom of this page: http://www.dsps.ie/?page_id=27 But that doesn't apply to our motorhome, since it's below the 3500KG limit. We found some other regulations - not parking on a road with a solid white line, or within 15m/5m or traffic lights, etc. We're not breaking any of those.

Does anyone know of any other law/by-law/regulation that we may prohibit us parking out motorhome where it is?

Any good information on this would be much appreciated!

Alkers

There is something in the planning regs iirc that you can't park a motorhome, boat or caravan in your driveway continuously all year around, it has to be away for a month or two but I can't remember the exact details.

You could make contact with the people who left the letter, listen to their concerns and see if you can come to a compromise?

CubicleDweller

Thanks, Simona. Yes, there is a (fairly odd) rule that a campervan cannot be parked in a driveway for more than 9 months per year. Not sure if that has ever been enforced, but it doesn't apply in this case as the van is parked on a public road.

You're right, I could make contact and seek a compromise - and I'd have been very happy to take that approach if the initial contact had been made in a more friendly manner. But frankly, the tone of their note has got my back up. In any case, I'd like to know where I stand legally before contacting them.

Thanks again.

niloc1951

A motor caravan, otherwise known as a 'camper' 'campervan' or 'motorhome' is legally, and by EU vehicle category definition, vehicle in the same category as a car, it being a passenger vehicle with not more that 8 passenger seats plus a drivers seat.
A motor caravan can therefore be parked at any place it is legal to park a car.

Furthermore, the restrictions often seen on the parking of vehicles over 3.5t are directed at Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGV's) and are not relevant to motor caravans.

Unless the Council have adopted a parking Bye-law which specifically mentions motor caravans, for which they would have to show a need related to traffic circulation and safety, you have nothing to fear.

CubicleDweller

Thanks, Niloc.

Everything you said makes perfect sense to me - and I think you're almost certainly right. I might call the council for confirmation, and then get in touch with my friendly local resident's association.

Pat Dunne

CubicleDweller wrote: »

I might call the council for confirmation, and then get in touch with my friendly local resident's association.

Complete and utter waste of your time making a call. Better sending a email, then you will have a definitive written response.

Day Lewin

Isn't there some restrictions on "temporary dwellings"?

Meant to discourage camps and nomads etc? (no offense meant)

Is the vehicle in occupation as a dwelling, or just a long-term-parked object?

niloc1951

Day Lewin wrote: »

Isn't there some restrictions on "temporary dwellings"?

Meant to discourage camps and nomads etc? (no offense meant)

Is the vehicle in occupation as a dwelling, or just a long-term-parked object?

Temporary dwelling regulations emanate from the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1948 which was enacted to prohibit the erection or retention of temporary dwellings on any land or water in their (a local government body) sanitary district if they are of opinion that such erection or retention would be prejudicial to public health or the amenities of the locality or would interfere to an unreasonable extent with traffic on any road.
Once a motorhome is legally parked as permitted by local parking bye-laws and does not effect the public health or the amenities of the locality there is no offence being committed.

LeChienMefiant

What vicinity is this in if you don't mind me asking?

Peregrinus

Obviously, the motor home isn't a temporary dwelling unless somebody is actually dwelling in it. And nothing in the OP suggests that the motorhome is being used as a dwelling. Presumably it's just being parked on the road because the OP doesn't have a convenient off-road place to store it.

This is a slightly grey area. In the absence of local bye-laws establishing a particular area of the highway as a parking area, there's no general right to park on the public road. What there is is a right to travel along the public road, both on foot and in a vehicle, and there's an incidental right to park as an incident of the journey. As in, you drive to e.g. the shops, park, make your purchases, drive home again. in that situation the right to park is ancillary to the right to travel.

But there's no right to use the public highway as long-term storage for goods that you're not using, even if the goods happen to be a motor vehicle; that's not incidental to your right to travel along the road. On the other hand, it's not clear that your neighbour has a right to stop you parking-for-storage (unless, again there's some relevant law, bye-law, regulation that is breached by your parking).

The owner of the land on which the road runs can stop you. In some cases, the land along which a road runs is owned by the local authority, but mostly this is not the case. It's typically owned, up to the mid-point of the road, by the owner of the adjacent private land. So in this case, where the OP is parking by a field, the strip of land on which he parks is probably owned by the owner of the field, who holds it subject to a public right of way. Since the OP, in storing his goods on the side of the road, is not exercising the public right of way, he has no right to use the land in this way and the owner of the land can stop him.

But that's the owner of the land, not the local residents association. I don't see that they have any basis on which they can stop the van being parked there. What they can do is lobby the council to make parking regulations which would prevent it. (Or, of course, if the land is privately owned they can approach the landowner and ask him to object. But I kind of doubt that they would do that and, if they did, the landowner's attitude might well be "I don't care".)

LeChienMefiant

The above comment *seems* more applicable to a less central location. It would *seem* mad in the context of a pay and display parking area where the council is effectively renting the land out per hour. I regularly see campers in a certain pay and display area very close to the city centre. I won't be advertising where.

LeChienMefiant

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

I regularly see campers in a certain pay and display area very close to the city centre.

niloc1951

Interesting read Peregrinus. But how does 'the public highway' or 'public road' fit into your argument, and if the road is in the private ownership of adjacent land owners how can The State levy taxes for its use, and what about 'occupiers liability'. Consider suing the adjacent landowner for damage suffered by hitting a pothole on his/her land. Also, we, not the landowner, pay for the upkeep of the road through out taxes.

I really do think that once a vehicle is taxed, insured and certified as roadworthy it is entitled to be used on the public road once all aspects of The Road Traffic Act are complied with and it can be parked where it is legal to do so subject to local Bye-laws enacted to manage parking and the adjacent land owner has no say in the matter.

I would expect that a vehicle could be classed as 'stored' if it were in a condition which meant it could not be immediately driven away, for reasons other than temporary break down.

A key provision in any legislation which could affect the long term parking of a vehicle would be a time limitation mentioned in such legislation.

Peregrinus

You can have a public right of way across land which is privately owned. This is the historic basis on which most roads were created (and are still created).

Once there’s a public right of way over a strip of land, that land - although still owned by someone - is a “public place” for the purposes of the Road Traffic Acts and other legislation. A public place is not a place that is publicly-owned; it’s a place to which the public have access. So traffic laws which apply in “a public place” (which is a lot of traffic laws) will apply on the road.

Once a public road is created by this mechanism, there is a statutory mechanism by which the local authority can take it in charge - meaning, not that they own it, but they become responsible for maintenance, upkeep, etc, and they acquire rights to regulate its use in various ways by imposing speed limits, by making road markings, and by making bye-laws to regulate various uses and activities on the road. Among other things, this enables them to make bye-laws which will designate part of the roadway for parking (e.g. marking parking bays), to prescribe permitted parking hours and duration, to levy charges for the use of the parking bays, etc. They have the right to do this not because they own the land - they don’t - but because there are statutes and bye-laws allowing them to do this on a public road which they have taken in charge.

(As regards occupier’s liability, once a road is in charge, the landowner is not responsible for maintenance and, indeed, not entitled to maintain it. So if you want to sue over a pothole causing damage or injury, you can’t sue the landowner.)

If you’ve got a motor home parked in a parking bay or other designated parking area, that’s fine - as long, obviously, as you are complying with the parking bye-laws, paying any charge required, not staying longer than allowed, etc. And as long as the bye-laws don’t say “cars, but no motor homes”, or words to that effect.

If you’re just parked on the side of the road, there’s a problem, obviously, if you are parking in breach of a law or bye-law - too close to a junction, blocking the use of the road, causing a niusance or obstruction, creating a danger, that kind of thing.

But in the common situation where (a) there’s no law or bye-law positively giving you a right to park there, and at the same time (b) there’s no law or bye-law that you breach by parking there, the position is that you can assert a right to park there only to the extent that is reasonably ancillary to your use of the right of way; your parking has to be connected with a journey you are making. You have no positive right to use the road as a convenient storage space for a vehicle that you are not using. But in most cases the only person who has a positive right to stop you from doing that is the landowner. And in many cases the landowner will have no objection to your parking, and no interest in trying to stop you, so you’re grand. If others have an issue with you parking there, and you and they can’t resolve that issue through neighbourly discussion (which is how they usually get resolved) then their only remedy is to press the local authority to make bye-laws to control parking on the section of roadway concerned.

muttnjeff

Why dont you park outside your own house?

You have parked your van across from someone's house. Up to this they have had a lovely unobstructed view of a green field. Now they are looking out at your camper van. I presume they didnt know who owned the camper until you rocked up the other day and went off for a drive and put your car in the spot to hold it. They seized their opportunity and left you a note.
This is a camper van forum so I presume others here are campers too.
Look at it from another person's point of view (or lack of view now:D )
It is a bit cheeky of you to leave your van there and not outside your own front door!
be a good neighbour and find somewhere to store your van. You are being unfair on those people who are looking out at your van every day.

Bye laws or no bye laws-to some it's an eyesore.

Beanybabog

Sorry to jump in on someone else thread, can I clarify you can have a campervan parked in your driveway pretty much all the time (bar holidays) and it doesn't constitute a temporary dwelling? My folks are considering getting one and parking it at my house

Del2005

Beanybabog wrote: »

Sorry to jump in on someone else thread, can I clarify you can have a campervan parked in your driveway pretty much all the time (bar holidays) and it doesn't constitute a temporary dwelling? My folks are considering getting one and parking it at my house

Maximum of 9 months in Dublin, not sure of other areas.

Beanybabog

Ah right... so basically if it's only used for holidays for two months in total it has to be stored elsewhere for a month?

Peregrinus

Beanybabog wrote: »

Sorry to jump in on someone else thread, can I clarify you can have a campervan parked in your driveway pretty much all the time (bar holidays) and it doesn't constitute a temporary dwelling? My folks are considering getting one and parking it at my house

Forget "temporary dwelling". If you keep or store it in your garden for more than nine months it doesn't become a "temporary dwelling"; it becomes an "unauthorised development".

Separately, if anybody is actually living it it, it becomes a temporary dwelling. That happens immediately; there's no nine-month grace period. And, if that happens, it also immediately becomes an unauthorised development.

So, you can store a caravan, motorhome, etc within the curtilage of your house without planning permission for up to nine months and provided nobody is living in it. Breach either of these conditions, and you have an unauthorised development.

Note that all this applies if you store your caravan, etc, anywhere within the curtilage of your house, not just out the front on the driveway. In practice, though, people are much less likely to object if you store it in the back garden.

niloc1951

This whole issue surrounding Motor Caravans and when or where they may be parked and for how long and the regulations relating to 'Temporary Dwelling' or 'Unauthorised Development' is often confused.

While a motor caravan, by virtue of it being a habitable space can be called a temporary dwelling its primary legal status is that of a Motor Vehicle which is primarily subject to The Road Traffic Act regulations. A person cannot avoid Road Traffic Act prosecutions using the defence that one was in charge of a Temporary Dwelling and not a Motor Vehicle.

Regarding 'Temporary Dwellings'. All the laws relating to such are drafted to control Unauthorised Developments of such with regard to the protection of the environment and the Development of inappropriate dwelling environments. The objective of the relevant Act being to prohibit the erection or retention of temporary dwellings on any land or water in their (A sanitary authority) sanitary district if they are of opinion that such erection or retention would be prejudicial to public health or the amenities of the locality or would interfere to an unreasonable extent with traffic on any road

A motor caravan, being a motor vehicle may be parked or stored in the same manner as is legally permissible for any other motor vehicle, unless its use at its parking place is deemed to be prejudicial to public health or the amenities of the locality or would interfere to an unreasonable extent with traffic on any road .

As regards a parked vehicle being an unauthorised development. That issue was tested in the courts with regard to the parking of trailers and other vehicles (often for many years) on private land adjacent to motorways and roads and used to carry advertising billboards. It was argued that such placements constituted unauthorised developments which required planning permission, however the case was lost which is why that method of advertising still continues to this day.
So if a farmer or landowner can park a bus or 40ft. trailer on his/her land and use it to carry an advertising billboard (for commercial gain) then where would be the problem with parking a motor caravan on ones own property for as long as is required.

Peregrinus

There generally isn't a problem parking a caravan or motorhome on your own property; only in parking it within the curtilage of your house. If you have a field or workyard to park it in, you're good to go. Presumably the underlying rationale is that using the curtilage of a house for long-term storage of a substantial vehicle is a change of use.

Victor

Ask them which regulations and you'll make sure you'll comply with them.

In terms of language, councils make bye-laws, not regulations.

niloc1951 wrote: »

Furthermore, the restrictions often seen on the parking of vehicles over 3.5t are directed at Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGV's) and are not relevant to motor caravans.

It applies to all vehicles over 3.5 tonnes. Within the city council area and some parts of other council areas, they can only park on a limited number of listed roads.

I think it's the Roads Act 1993 places a restriction on the parking of such vehicles on national routes (Port Tunnel is only national route in city).

Peregrinus wrote: »

The owner of the land on which the road runs can stop you.

I don't agree. How would this work?

niloc1951 wrote: »

Interesting read Peregrinus. But how does 'the public highway' or 'public road' fit into your argument, and if the road is in the private ownership of adjacent land owners how can The State levy taxes for its use, and what about 'occupiers liability'. Consider suing the adjacent landowner for damage suffered by hitting a pothole on his/her land. Also, we, not the landowner, pay for the upkeep of the road through out taxes.

The road would be in the charge of the council. Just like a landlord can tell a commercial tenant willy-nilly that they can't deal with certain customers, the land owner can't willy-nilly tell the council what to do with the the road.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Among other things, this enables them to make bye-laws which will designate part of the roadway for parking (e.g. marking parking bays), to prescribe permitted parking hours and duration, to levy charges for the use of the parking bays, etc.

Note that only a few councils use bye-laws to create parking places. In most cases, parking bye-laws deal with what happens in parking places, but the creation of parking places is an executive action.

Peregrinus

Victor wrote: »

I don't agree. How would this work?

In practice, I doubt that it would work. In principle. though, the landowner has the full rights of any landowner, subject only to the common law public right of way, any statutory limitations. Assume that there are no relevant statutory limitations (such as bye-laws designating a parking area). The landlord can't stop members of the public travelling along the road, since that's the exercise of the public right of way. But leaving your goods by the side of the road by way of long-term storage in a way that is not ancillary to a journey is not the exercise of a public right of way, even if the goods happen to have wheels on them. That's a trespass, and the landowner can restrain it.

CubicleDweller

Hi All,

Sorry to have left it so long to post again here - I hadn't seen some of these posts till this evening. (I guess I didn't click on the link in one of the email notifications, so I didn't get any more after that, etc...) Anyway, I thought I should clarify a few things about my original question.

The motorhome is parked, it is not being used as a dwelling of any sort. It's a couple of hundred metres from my house. (When I go camping, I like to go a bit further away than that!)

The reason that I don't park the van outside my own house is very simple; there is no space to do so. I live in a terraced house on a road that is much narrower than the one where it is parked. On my road, residents park cars on one side of the road ; on the other side they actually park them on the pavement. (Yes, I think that's illegal, but it happens all the time.) There is no way that I could park my motorhome outside my house without causing a serious obstruction.

For the poster who asked about the vicinity - let's just say it's on the North Side, not very far from Glasnevin.

Pergrinus's posts about the legal basis of all of this stuff are interesting, but I'm assuming that the landowner in question won't want to get involved.

My wife rang the council's parking section and had a lengthy discussion with a very helpful lady who said she doesn't think we're breaking any regulations; she suggested that if I emailed them she'd be happy to put that in writing; so I've just emailed them and am looking forward to a reply.

And to muttnjeff; I really don't know where you're coming from with this:

It is a bit cheeky of you to leave your van there and not outside your own front door!
be a good neighbour and find somewhere to store your van. You are being unfair on those people who are looking out at your van every day.

Bye laws or no bye laws-to some it's an eyesore

.

Maybe you don't realise how wide the street in question is. It's not as though my van is completely dominating the view from someone's house, or blocking the light from their front windows. From looking at Google Maps, I reckon my van is about 25 metres from the front windows of the nearest house! A cigarette pack at arm's length would probably be big enough to block out the "eyesore" that is my van.

As I said before, I'd have been happy to be "neighbourly" about this if the matter had been raised in a friendly matter. But the opening move by the residents association was to accuse me (wrongly, it seems) of breaching "regulations". I don't take well to that sort of thing; so no, I'm not inclined to inconvenience myself in order to placate someone who finds it a terrible ordeal to have to see my motorhome. I could easily take offence at having to look at some of the other vehicles parked in the area, but let's not go there..

Thanks again, for all of the comments and opinions...

alastair

I know the location of the camper. I’d assumed that it was being lived in. I’d imagine that the same assumption might be made by some local residents.

CubicleDweller

alastair wrote: »

I know the location of the camper. I’d assumed that it was being lived in. I’d imagine that the same assumption might be made by some local residents.

Good point, Alastair - they may well have assumed so, initially - and I hadn't thought of that. But the van's been there for months now, and they surely know it's unoccupied by now.

So I thought this had all died down and been forgotten, until today - when two Gardai called to my house looking for me. I was at work, but my wife had an interesting conversation with them. They "asked" (told?) us to move the van because the neighbours "don't like it". When my wife asked "are we breaking any law?" she was told that she was being rude and they didn't like her attitude.

I was actually thinking of putting the van into storage until the spring, but this has got me annoyed all over again....:mad:

listermint

Very selfish tbh OP, if you want to have such a vehicle you should also have somewhere you can store it. At the moment you are taking advantage of other people. And no i dont think thats particularly cool.

Why cant you personally take it upon yourself to locate appropriate storage for it rather than messing with someone elses amenities and view.

I suppose you would be ok with someone parking their Work Truck opposite your house 24/7 365 ?

Marcusm

CubicleDweller wrote: »

Good point, Alastair - they may well have assumed so, initially - and I hadn't thought of that. But the van's been there for months now, and they surely know it's unoccupied by now.

So I thought this had all died down and been forgotten, until today - when two Gardai called to my house looking for me. I was at work, but my wife had an interesting conversation with them. They "asked" (told?) us to move the van because the neighbours "don't like it". When my wife asked "are we breaking any law?" she was told that she was being rude and they didn't like her attitude.

I was actually thinking of putting the van into storage until the spring, but this has got me annoyed all over again....:mad:

There was an interesting thread in Legal Discussion a while ago to the effect that parking on a road was only parking to the extent that it was ancillary to use of the road and that effective storage of a vehicle on a road (even one without parking restrictions) was not parking as it was not ancillary to use as a means of transport.

comput1

How was this eventually resolved?

CubicleDweller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118826855#Comment_118826855

Just saw your question now, comput1.

It's been a while, but here goes, from the best of my recollection.

I got another note, this time from the lady who owned the house opposite. She actually came to talk to me one day, while I was working on the van (just doing some cleaning inside, not making a mess or anything..) We had a courteous conversation where she explained that in her opinion my van was "an eyesore". In fairness, she did point out that she herself was perhaps unusually sensitive to such things - for example she had gone to considerable trouble and expense to set up a pretty enclosure in her front garden to avoid having her eyes assaulted by the sight of her own wheelie-bins. I resisted the temptation to express the opinion that my motorhome was a design classic and her bin enclosure was an eyesore...

A short time later I decided to move the camper to another location a few hundred meters away, in a parking bay outside a church that was never full. I stopped closing the curtains to make it clear that it was not being lived in. I did some work on the van there in the evenings, overhauling the electric system - again, almost always working inside the van. Various locals would stop to chat when out walking their dogs - they seemed much friendlier and more positive about the van than those near the previous location. We did get another Garda visit one day to politely ask us if we'd please move the van during Holy Week when parking spaces near the church would be in great demand and of course we happily parked it elsewhere for a few days.

So it seemed like everything had calmed down, and all was sweetness and light.

Around that time we decided to convert our small front garden into a parking space; we intended to use it for our car as we thought the camper would be a very tight fit and difficult to maneuver into the space on our narrow road. We also thought (in light of our experience nearby) that it just might irritate some of our immediate neighbours, baffling though that was to us. We got planning permission for the new vehicular entrance, got the work done and started parking our car there.

Then things took a darker turn. One Friday evening I walked to where the van was parked to pick it up for a weekend away, only to discover two flat tyres. I thought someone must have let the air out. Very annoyed, I tried to pump them with a 12v compressor and with a foot pump, to no avail.

It turned out that someone had slashed the two tyres. (Well, "slashed" is not very accurate. They had made a very small hole in each tyre, right next to the wheel-rim using something with a sharp point like a dart, an awl, or an old-fashioned school compass.) I had only one spare wheel so I had to call out a mobile tyre repair guy. He said the holes could not be repaired due to where they were located, so I had to buy two new tyres. An expensive day.

So I immediately moved the van to the new parking space where our front garden used to be. It's a tight fit, but it does fit. Most of the neighbours are fine about it - they chat when we meet and ask if we've been away anywhere in it lately, etc. Just one neighbour is not pleased. I told him about the tyre-slashing but I'm not sure he believed me. Anyway, I don't care, at this stage.

comput1

It’s a shame you had so much hassle… glad you’re sorted now though. Hope you get some good trips in it ;)