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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion
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antoinolachtnai wrote: »Well that was a crap rhetorical trick if you don't mind me saying so.
This is the outlook (that costs basically don't matter, that there is no way to reduce costs and that the only way to improve quality is to reduce costs) that in a large part explains how Dublin's and Ireland's public transport has gotten itself to the situation that it is in.
No other industry works on this model. Even civil servants have to manage cost and quality now. The way things are going, soon even Guards will be doing it.
Well, that is great but operating costs are far higher on Dublin Bus than they are in operations elsewhere. Can you find a bus company anywhere in the world that has higher unit costs than Dublin Bus?
Good Lord No,but thats because I'm not spending my life looking around the World to find higher operating costs.
Of course costs matter....but they are only part of a larger and far more fluid bigger picture.
Of course cost reductions are part and parcel of this picture,just as,at the opposite end of the cycle,those reduced costs will again Increase...thats how the cookie keeps crumbling.
These cycles are not Bus Driver specific,or even Public Transport specific....it's how societies,particularly capitalist societies work,and it sure seems to suit more people (Busdrivers included
) than the opposing ethos of Socialisim ?
Dublin.....Ireland.....it's our situation,and it's as unique an operational setup as any other Country has.....direct comparisons are largely moot,as every other location has differences across a great many differing areas...Bus Drivers wages being but one of those ?
Give it 5 years,and I'll wager that there will be not-a-lot,between BAC and Go-Ahead or whatever new kid arrives in the interim.
Singapore,as a recent example,is seeing a substantial increase in Bus Captain salaries,as the new Operators now vie for the services of a fairly static Bus Captain pool.
Put simply,the new,more Commercially Focused operators are now having to improve their Employment Package offers,which INCREASE their costs.....do they like it ?...No....does the Tendering Authority Like it ?...No...but hey,that's what is happening,so unless they reduce or withdraw services,it's time to take a deep breath and carry on.
Our Republic is NOT a low-wage economy,and Full-Time Busdriving involves utilizing skill-sets, at a level which carries with it a degree of Competence deserving of a certain level of remuneration.
Lets see where the BMO process goes in relation to this,as,if it IS successful in reducing costs,then I'd be the FIRST to support it's expansion into other areas,such as ...Politics ?....Law...?
Apologies if it seems rhetorical,but I might be just me ?
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Good Lord No,but thats because I'm not spending my life looking around the World to find higher operating costs.
That is heartening. I am glad you did not waste your time on what would be a fruitless errand.Of course costs matter....but they are only part of a larger and far more fluid bigger picture.
Of course cost reductions are part and parcel of this picture,just as,at the opposite end of the cycle,those reduced costs will again Increase...thats how the cookie keeps crumbling.
Perhaps it would be better if the drivers just parked the buses at the bus station? After all, at the end of the shift, the bus will only have to be returned to the bus station. In fact, it might be better if everybody stayed at home. All the moving around achieves net nothing.These cycles are not Bus Driver specific,or even Public Transport specific....it's how societies,particularly capitalist societies work,and it sure seems to suit more people (Busdrivers included ) than the opposing ethos of Socialisim ?
Most companies had to reduce their operating costs during the downturn. Dublin Bus's unit costs actually increased as I remember it.Dublin.....Ireland.....it's our situation,and it's as unique an operational setup as any other Country has.....direct comparisons are largely moot,as every other location has differences across a great many differing areas...Bus Drivers wages being but one of those ?
Do you think we should have a discussion about bus drivers wages, since you bring it up?Give it 5 years,and I'll wager that there will be not-a-lot,between BAC and Go-Ahead or whatever new kid arrives in the interim.
That is certainly true. If it isn't true, then BAC will have gone out of business.Singapore,as a recent example,is seeing a substantial increase in Bus Captain salaries,as the new Operators now vie for the services of a fairly static Bus Captain pool.
You do not know about costs of companies, but now you claim knowledge of the workings of the Singaporean labour and bus market.Put simply,the new,more Commercially Focused operators are now having to improve their Employment Package offers,which INCREASE their costs.....do they like it ?...No....does the Tendering Authority Like it ?...No...but hey,that's what is happening,so unless they reduce or withdraw services,it's time to take a deep breath and carry on.
What are you talking about? SG's bus services have had competition for 30 years at least.Our Republic is NOT a low-wage economy,and Full-Time Busdriving involves utilizing skill-sets, at a level which carries with it a degree of Competence deserving of a certain level of remuneration.
You are talking about bus driver pay again.Lets see where the BMO process goes in relation to this,as,if it IS successful in reducing costs,then I'd be the FIRST to support it's expansion into other areas,such as ...Politics ?....Law...?
Apologies if it seems rhetorical,but I might be just me ?
From this thread, I am worried about quality as much as cost.
According to reports from drivers, the fairly reckless practice of allowing free-riding on public transport is endorsed by management. This leaves drivers and passengers in a dangerous position where the driver and the company aren't really in proper control of what goes on on the bus. I am surprised that drivers tolerate it, but obviously that is the drivers' decisions to make.
If you think that the incumbent cares about its drivers, you should think again.0 -
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Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »Can you tell me what's premium about being at work at unsocial hours ?
Where a good chunk of people can work a Monday to Friday gig and enjoy evenings and weekends off and enjoy going for a pint at the weekends, where as the bus driver only gets 2 weekends off every 2 and half months ?
That's not premium. The abuse we take in work face to face including being abused , spat on, threatened , called every name under the sun and so on where working in an office it wouldn't happen ? Again not premium.
Not having a pop at you personally but I do have an issue with people thinking they know what the job is like when they never worked it.
You can even research my previous posts from 4 years ago if you want when I was in the application process for the job , I was excited and looking forward to it being young and all that, but now ? I'm miserable as f'uck in the job and looking for any sort of decent way out.
Money side of things isint good either, for a 5 day week on shift work (which does include only 9 hours between shifts) is only about 500-600 a week after tax.
And that's just not worth it at all when you miss out on life, when father's miss out on their children growing up or why there's a high percentage of drivers divorced, single and also leaving the job because their wives / partners tell them if they don't their leaving them.
There's nothing premium about this job. And personally I think,from what i see everyday, it's going to be an industry of drivers that will take low wages and so a terrible job because they don't care and also there'll be a shortage of drivers for a long time.
You and I have debated this over the past few years....(How time flies :eek:)
However,right from the get go,we have differed on some core aspects of your expectations and journey to where you are now.
Every individual has different expectations,requirements and satisfaction thresholds,not all of which can be met by any single occupation,even marriage !
If I remember correctly,you began in Coach Driving and moved across to service Bus work,and very soon found the move was not suiting you ?
However,I personally know a great many people who entered during that period,and are still out there daily,plodding away,not excited or delighted enough to take to the keyboard or Liveline,but happy enough that they are paying the bills,and keeping their ship afloat.
My point,which I made from the beginning,is that once you find this (or any) job interfering with your rationality and other basic moods,then GET OUT...and pretty damn quick too.
It is a hugely important and PERSONAL decision,but one which you MUST make ,without regard for the others working around you,most of whom will just keep working away.
If it becomes a form of personal crusade to convert others to your beliefs about the Job,then it runs the risk of taking over your entire waking time and turning you into something you actually may not be.
Busdriving,or any Public Transport Operational work Globallydiffers very little in it's setup.
The core requirement is that the Operational Staff MUST be available to work intensively when all other elements of Society are resting or at play.
That aspect,when combined with young and developing Families,or other demands upon an individual is something that MUST be squared away in one's head before making a career of it,as that aspect remains constant no matter where in the World you work.
It is important to recognize that not EVERY Busdriver is Spat upon,Threatened,or otherwise Abused during their days work,and NO busdriver should ever be required to accept those elements at any time.
Yet,it is something which is out there in greater Society,and endured by Shop Workers,Salespeople,Roadworkers,and almost every other Public Facing employment.
It's about Humanity itself really....and maybe,Humanity just aint what it should be ?
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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antoinolachtnai wrote: »That is heartening. I am glad you did not waste your time on what would be a fruitless errand.
Perhaps it would be better if the drivers just parked the buses at the bus station? After all, at the end of the shift, the bus will only have to be returned to the bus station. In fact, it might be better if everybody stayed at home. All the moving around achieves net nothing.
Most companies had to reduce their operating costs during the downturn. Dublin Bus's unit costs actually increased as I remember it.
Do you think we should have a discussion about bus drivers wages, since you bring it up?
That is certainly true. If it isn't true, then BAC will have gone out of business.
You do not know about costs of companies, but now you claim knowledge of the workings of the Singaporean labour and bus market.
What are you talking about? SG's bus services have had competition for 30 years at least.
You are talking about bus driver pay again.
From this thread, I am worried about quality as much as cost.
According to reports from drivers, the fairly reckless practice of allowing free-riding on public transport is endorsed by management. This leaves drivers and passengers in a dangerous position where the driver and the company aren't really in proper control of what goes on on the bus. I am surprised that drivers tolerate it, but obviously that is the drivers' decisions to make.
If you think that the incumbent cares about its drivers, you should think again.
In spite of differing with antoin over several different areas down the years,I'm happy to share some areas of agreement.
Wages are wages,and I'll take the best deal I can get,whether in London,Dublin ...or maybe Singapore
However,I have to state that I am NOT an Expert on the Singaporean Bus market,but in the light of the similarities,and the cast of characters going through the hoops I feel that it is worth noting how it's being handled...along with the realities being described...
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/go-aheads-bus-driver-shortage-does-not-breach-contract-terms-ltaGo-Ahead started operations on Sept 4 and has 24 services, with one more to begin next year. Transport analyst Dr Park Byung Joon, who lectures at SIM University, said the interlining model is common in the West but it may not be well-received by bus drivers here as it involves “a lot more work” at lower remuneration. “You have to learn and drive more than one route ... In London, the drivers are paid quite well. But (not) in Singapore ... So I don’t blame drivers for not (wanting to do) it,” he said.
Dr Park sounds surprisingly well grounded for an academic ?
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/tower-transits-bus-drivers-get-higher-paySINGAPORE — One of Singapore’s newest public bus operators, the London-based Tower Transit, announced on Monday (May 16) that it will be increasing the pay of its bus drivers and staff members by 3.5 per cent from this month.
With the news, at least one rival incumbent operator is expected to follow suit and raise salaries — SBS Transit’s senior vice-president of corporate communications Tammy Tan said the company would make an announcement soon after talks with the union.
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/go-ahead-overtaking-smrt-sbst-wooing-jobseekers
.When contacted, SMRT did not reveal how much it pays its bus captains, only that remuneration was “comparable” with the market, taking into account performance incentives and allowances such as over-time. In December, SMRT announced it was looking to recruit 700 more staff — including bus captains — and among the perks offered was a sign-on bonus worth S$2,000 for drivers or trainers hired between Dec 11 and April 1
All good news for both incumbent Singaporean Busdrivers,and those thinking of becoming a Busdriver,but perhaps not so good for a tender winner who had predicated their tender on stable,lower cost base ?
Discussing Busdrivers wages is all well n good,but any notion that the introduction,and success,of a Tendering or BMO regieme should be judged simply on cost reduction alone is,I fear prone to fail.
On the issue of Revenue Protection,I would have no problem concurring that there is nowhere enough VISIBLE revenue protection,and also quite a disconnect amogst many busdrivers about what the entire process actually revolves around.
Revenue Protection and Control is about far more than catching a fare-dodger,it is about being SEEN to catch the delinquent and about making sure as many other customers as possible view the entire process.
Traditionally,we have been reluctant to implement the type of RP seen widely across Europe,whereby the offence is total and whatever punishment,be it monetary or otherwise is dispensed on the spot. No Negotiation,No Letter from one's Mammy,just pay or get off and explain to a Police Officer down the Station.
Sadly,the Irish way,does not accept the reality that Services need to be paid for in order to avail of them,and equally sadly,it often falls to the Busdriver to be the one who has to patiently explain the process (whilst every other intending passenger patiently waits out the delay)
Busdrivers in Dublin certainly spend a LOT more time on Customer Interaction than their equivalents in other European Cities.
But it is Quality time,which keeps it all above board Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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I think you have a perception of a 9-5 office as being a nice easy work life where everybody wears a suit, well spoken and diplomatic to one another sorry to burst your bubble but that is not the case. When your working a 9-5 office you get up sometime before 7.30 in the morning depending on how far you live and sit in traffic for most of journey to work or stand on an overcrowded bus, train or tram paying through the nose for an annual ticket.
When you get to work you have to deal with arsehole bosses and colleagues and even in most office you still have to deal with let us say tricky customers all of whom like to make life difficult for you. Don't get me wrong it has its pros and it's cons but so those every job. Cushy jobs are few and far between and even they have negative aspects.
From an outsider point of view see the negative aspects of the job a bus driver as being dealing with abusive passengers and irregular hours. Its positives are not having deal with bosses or colleagues breathing down your neck all the time and a generally steady and secure job with good perks and benefits and a fair days wage at least for someone working for DB or BE.
If your partner doesn't like the job you do then he/she is obivously unworthy of you. Why would you want to date someone who is not content with you working.
The bus industry is definitely not the only industry which workers are putting up with crap. Many industries are going through the process of hours and pay getting worse especially for new entrants as many workers are willing to put up with this nonsense that can be put a lot down to a general un interest in standing up and fighting for what you are entitled to. More and more people are willing to accept crappy pay and crappy hours.
I have worked the office job before in 2 or 3 different companies, between NCT head office, AA insurance and another company in the south county for payment cards industry.
I have sat in the traffic, I have gotten abusive phonecalls and to be honest I'd be happier back in one of those jobs again than where I am now.
In Dublin bus more so you do get bosses and customers breathing down your neck , from the supervisor on the radio asking where are you, what bus have you got, will you do this that and the other. You have an employee going around in plain clothing to watch your driving and what your doing , you have complaints coming in putting you up in front of your manager. Even fake complaints that could have potential , so yes I have worked both sides , the office work isint anything fancy but it's better.
Adding to that other factors as working outdoors in -0 temperatures and terrible heating etc , walking to get buses in said weather.
On the partner topic, it's not so much it's your job they dislike, I think partners don't really care what you do once your happy in the job and you earn what you deserve, I mean they have issues where you'd only see them rarely for a short time, like passing. Ships in the night.
A very recent example is a colluege of mine recently got another bus driving job for people with disabilities and it's a Monday to Friday day time only job and he has been married for many years.
Recently I bumped into him and he couldn't believe how much he didn't know or forgotten about his wife until he went working decent day shifts only. He only worked with me for a few years but he felt he missed out on a lot of their lives together
On other industries, I cringe at the thought of what paramedics, nurses etc must put up with for the money they get from their 12 hour plus shifts and druken fools making their work harder, I really feel for them and if people like them ever wanted support for better working terms I'd have no issue giving support .
I just want to point something back to Alex there.
My post 3-4 posts back wasn't so much about me at all and i didn't mean to bring it across as that but more what the poster said about Dublin bus being a premium employer and it looking good from the outside. My point was from the outside may seem great , but working it is a completely different story.
It was like back when the strike was on and people were bashing saying they would do the job for half what we do now etc. I would happily invite anyone to do it on what we currently earn and I bet they wouldn't be happy or wouldn't stick it. It's a complete body clock disaster and depressing place to be.
@alex again: I went from private to Dublin bus to BÉ. Be being better in my opinion for less abuse and cleaner work as such. And yes we've had this discussion before and I've mentioned it before already I'm already moving onto a different path away from it, again my debate was only for the other people on their outside looking in comments. 0 -
Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »I have worked the office job before in 2 or 3 different companies, between NCT head office, AA insurance and another company in the south county for payment cards industry.
I have sat in the traffic, I have gotten abusive phonecalls and to be honest I'd be happier back in one of those jobs again than where I am now.
In Dublin bus more so you do get bosses and customers breathing down your neck , from the supervisor on the radio asking where are you, what bus have you got, will you do this that and the other. You have an employee going around in plain clothing to watch your driving and what your doing , you have complaints coming in putting you up in front of your manager. Even fake complaints that could have potential , so yes I have worked both sides , the office work isint anything fancy but it's better.
Adding to that other factors as working outdoors in -0 temperatures and terrible heating etc ,walking to get buses in said weather.
On the partner topic, it's not so much it's your job they dislike, I think partners don't really care what you do once your happy in the job and you earn what you deserve, I mean they have issues where you'd only see them rarely for a short time, like passing. Ships in the night.
A very recent example is a colluege of mine recently got another bus driving job for people with disabilities and it's a Monday to Friday day time only job and he has been married for many years.
Recently I bumped into him and he couldn't believe how much he didn't know or forgotten about his wife until he went working decent day shifts only. He only worked with me for a few years but he felt he missed out on a lot of their lives together
On other industries, I cringe at the thought of what paramedics, nurses etc must put up with for the money they get from their 12 hour plus shifts and druken fools making their work harder, I really feel for them and if people like them ever wanted support for better working terms I'd have no issue giving support .
I just want to point something back to Alex there.
My post 3-4 posts back wasn't so much about me at all and i didn't mean to bring it across as that but more what the poster said about Dublin bus being a premium employer and it looking good from the outside. My point was from the outside may seem great ,but working it is a completely different story.
It was like back when the strike was on and people were bashing saying they would do the job for half what we do now etc. I would happily invite anyone to do it on what we currently earn and I bet they wouldn't be happy or wouldn't stick it. It's a complete body clock disaster and depressing place to be.
@alex again: I went from private to Dublin bus to BÉ. Be being better in my opinion for less abuse and cleaner work as such. And yes we've had this discussion before and I've mentioned it before already I'm already moving onto a different path away from it, again my debate was only for the other people on their outside looking in comments.
It may on occasion appear that I am a paid recruiting Sergeant of Dublin Bus in this thread.
However,nothing could be further from the truth,and all of my posts represent MY OWN personal views,with NO input whatever from the company.
I would totally disagree about KS&L's assertion that the Company is "a depressing place to be"......It may be for KS&L and if it is,fully reinforces my recommendation to get out,and get out Quickly.
If the Job,any job,is instilling these emotions in you,then YOU and IT are incompatible,but only one of you is vulnerable...the job was there before you,and it will be there long after you have gone.
Your prime focus should be on getting as far away from whatever is causing this depression and leaving whatever these elements are, for others to cope with.
You suggest it is debate,but in reality it has been a stream of negativity almost from the outset,which pointed to a mismatch from the start.(something I think,I may have broached in our exchanges back then ?)
Remember always,that there will be plenty of people,whose personalities,expectations and emotions will find your old job just ideally suited to them,something which may not be,ideally to your liking,but which is yet undeniably true.
You appear to want to make up these peoples minds on their behalf,which just is'nt fair,to other free minded individuals.
The reality is that with,in excess of 2,000 drivers,each one with different expectations,and views to yours,the vast majority just keep her lit and attempt the balancing trick,which,for you,is not working.
That reality includes,that in Life itself,and certainly in any employment,you are just a number.
Try claiming any State payment without recourse to a number and see how far it goes,but don't take it personal...because it's not..it's simply bureaucracy in action.
I would also refute any suggestion of posters on here,portraying Busdriving in some form of rose tinted hue,in order to lure unsuspecting gawms towards it.
Do your own basic research,travel on those buses,watch how the drama plays out,ask questions and all the rest...BUT...be prepared to be required (not Asked) for work when all of your mates are OFF,and to be the one who misses some of the important dates that otherwise would have you there....Thats the Job....It's not personal...it comes with the territory.
Best of Luck in your new endeavours,maybe you'll keep us posted on your progress ?,but make sure you shut the Busdriving door firmly behind you,as,if you bring the baggage of your Busdriving experiences with you,it carries the risk of reigniting again ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Public Transport being the primarly method of mobility for the hundreds of thousands of new Dubliners who will be in place come 2040.
We already know what the birth rate is right now so we won't really have hundreds of thousands of new Dubliners by 2040
Unless you mean the idea that shoveling hundreds of thousands of non Dubliners into the city by 2040 is in someway good idea... 0 -
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