Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Yer Da sells Avon

Up close, from the front, it actually looks fine. Much nicer than the Dublin Bus livery. Once the ad frames are filled, it'll be fine. From a design perspective, the most obnoxious thing about it is the blue 'triangle' between the white stripe and the yellow, but that'll be less noticeable once the adverts have been applied. Also, the 'teal' stripe should be either removed or replaced with the TFI shade of green because it clashes badly with the yellow.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

My amazement is reserved for the decision to Remove,at no little expense, a non-contentious,and provenly disabled friendly livery from c.1000 vehicles and replace it with a significantly less fit-for-purpose livery.

First of all, you don't remove a livery from vehicles that never had it on. A good percentage of the Go-Ahead vehicles were delivered in the fairly bright blue colour scheme and never had the Dublin Bus Livery on them and they've only painted a couple of dozen vehicles into the Go-Ahead colours so far from the Go-Ahead Livery.

Secondly any news on Dublin Bus removing the dark and I assume to you, less fit for purpose livery that has been wore by their Airlink vehicles for the last ten years to make them more friendly to the disabled patrons that you appear to be so passionate about helping? Or is there two tiers?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

devnull wrote: »

First of all, you don't remove a livery from vehicles that never had it on. A good percentage of the Go-Ahead vehicles were delivered in the fairly bright blue colour scheme and never had the Dublin Bus Livery on them and they've only painted a couple of dozen vehicles into the Go-Ahead colours so far from the Go-Ahead Livery.

Secondly any news on Dublin Bus removing the dark and I assume to you, less fit for purpose livery that has been wore by their Airlink vehicles for the last ten years to make them more friendly to the disabled patrons that you appear to be so passionate about helping? Or is there two tiers?

Airlink is purely commercial, it is not PSO and does not receive PSO funding. It also does not accept free travel (much in the way night links didn't before)

So with that in mind, they are not the for regular service for people with disabilities and been fully commercial are not required to.

Aircoach do accept the free travel card for the airport so maybe they should be the ones to not have a dark blue livery and also change from coaches to city type buses to be able to carry wheelchair users also ? After all they are receiving the funding to carry these people

Stephen15

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Airlink is purely commercial, it is not PSO and does not receive PSO funding. It also does not accept free travel (much in the way night links didn't before)

So with that in mind, they are not the for regular service for people with disabilities and been fully commercial are not required to.

The old livery for it was yellow

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Airlink is purely commercial, it is not PSO and does not receive PSO funding. It also does not accept free travel (much in the way night links didn't before)

So with that in mind, they are not the for regular service for people with disabilities and been fully commercial are not required to.

I think that is outrageous. It's almost like you are saying that disabled people should know their place and that's on the slow stage carriage service that stops everywhere and that any faster services should be marketed to people who do not have any disabilities. That would be deemed offensive by a visually impaired friend of mine.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, But earlier in the thread it was discussed that Dublin Bus as a company placed the needs of disabled people as something that was a fundamental value to the company and they had a long history in relation to disabled people and putting them first.

Are you saying now, that this is not the case and that when Dublin Bus are able to, on a commercial route, choose between commercial interests and helping the disabled see their bus, they may deem their commercial interests as being a bigger priority. That seems to be very much at odds with the values we're told that DB have when it comes to assisting the disabled.

Aircoach do accept the free travel card for the airport so maybe they should be the ones to not have a dark blue livery and also change from coaches to city type buses to be able to carry wheelchair users also ? After all they are receiving the funding to carry these people

So what you are saying that essentially Aircoach are not operating a two tier system and are treating everyone the same on their commercial routes where Dublin Bus are seemingly, according to you, actively trying to push disabled patrons to their stage carriage services to where I assume you feel they belong and away from their commercial services?

As for why Aircoach don't use buses, I'll give you a hint. Look at the name. Also the idea that Aircoach vehicles are dark blue made me laugh, if they are dark blue, then the colours of Dublin Bus are Yellow, Dark Blue and Black and their wheelchair access policies are in line with industry norms for coach operators.

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Airlink is purely commercial, it is not PSO and does not receive PSO funding. It also does not accept free travel (much in the way night links didn't before)

So with that in mind, they are not the for regular service for people with disabilities and been fully commercial are not required to.

Aircoach do accept the free travel card for the airport so maybe they should be the ones to not have a dark blue livery and also change from coaches to city type buses to be able to carry wheelchair users also ? After all they are receiving the funding to carry these people

My god.

First of all Class I buses like the VGs used on the Airlink by law must be fully wheelchair accessible and fit for those with disabilities.

What does "they are not the for regular service for people with disabilities" mean exactly? Are people with disabilities only allowed or expected to use certain PSO services or those who accept FTP, if they can use non PSO are they expected to have lesser needs?

What has FTP or PSO got to do with recognising their disability related requirements?

I echo all that Devnull has said.

Disability activists would be up in arms reading your post.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

Disability activists would be up in arms reading your post.

To be fair many of the "disability activists" have only popped out of the woodwork since the new livery and bus connects was announced. They are using people with disabilities as a battering ram to object to NTA proposals such as tendering and bus connects. They are only concerned as it suits their agenda. You don't hear much of them when people park up on the pavement.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

devnull wrote: »

I think that is outrageous. It's almost like you are saying that disabled people should know their place and that's on the slow stage carriage service that stops everywhere and that any faster services should be marketed to people who do not have any disabilities.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, But earlier in the thread it was discussed that Dublin Bus as a company placed the needs of disabled people as something that was a fundamental value to the company and they had a long history in relation to disabled people and putting them first.

Are you saying now, that this is not the case and that when Dublin Bus are able to, on a commercial route, choose between commercial interests and helping the disabled see their bus, they may deem their commercial interests as being a bigger priority. That seems to be very much at odds with the values we're told that DB have when it comes to assisting the disabled.



So what you are saying that essentially Aircoach are not operating a two tier system and are treating everyone the same on their commercial routes where Dublin Bus are seemingly, according to you, actively trying to push disabled patrons to their stage carriage services to where I assume you feel they belong and away from their commercial services?

As for why Aircoach don't use buses, I'll give you a hint. Look at the name. Also the idea that Aircoach vehicles are dark blue made me laugh, if they are dark blue, then the colours of Dublin Bus are Yellow, Dark Blue and Black.

I never once said anything about where anybody belongs, people have a right to choose what they want to do but everything shouldn't be free just because.

It's very simple actually, there are services to get them to the airport from the city from 2 different companies

Dublin bus: 41, 16 , regular routes which are yellow in colours and pass friendly

Aircoach: 700, 702 , 703, that go from an array of places from the southside that they can also use.

Nobody is short for services for cheap/ free and easily accessible. If they want an express route however, or a premium service then they should pay extra for that

A perfect example of this is the Irish rail train from Dublin to cork. If you have a free pass, you are not entitled to a booked seat. You're also not entitled to enter the premium or first class carriages but they can if they PAY for it. It's a very similar thing here.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying airlink is great , the thing goes half way around the city before hitting the airport and I wouldn't use it personally but if someone WANTS to use it then of course they should pay for a service that does not receive any funding.

If they don't want to pay then great , there's other services there.

Aircoach are receiving funding and should be using wheelchair friendly buses , not coaches, (yes, regardless of name).

Mind you they use coaches but spend an awful lot of time in the city doing Dublin bus speeds anyway. (Less than 50kmh)

Their colour scheme ? It may aswell be black if we're talking about visually impaired people here, which we are, you don't agree they should have a bright front also ? Or are you just looking to argue because airlink is dark green ? Which also might aswell be black if you're visually impaired.

If the aircoach blue is fine then they wouldn't have changed the go-ahead front now would they ?

Is it possible that Dublin bus are NOT allowed to have the same livery as a PSO livery because it might be conflicting ? In the same way bus Eireann has changed some routes to expressway and red buses ? Maybe the NTA have something to do with that they don't want their NTA services confused with private ventures ?


In short anyway, nobody is pushing anybody anywhere or discriminating against anyone, and personally I think you're blowing this out of proportion, otherwise I want to see free pass holders in every first class carriage of trains getting free drinks and served food for free so we don't discriminate !

And just to point out I'm not defending Dublin bus either, if they ever do get funding for airlink then I want to see yellow buses on it too, not the green ones, but I also want to see bright coloured aircoach buses also.

It's going to have to be the same rules for everyone of they are getting paid for it, not just having cake and eating it

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair many of the "disability activists" have only popped out of the woodwork since the new livery and bus connects was announced. They are using people with disabilities as a battering ram to object to NTA proposals such as tendering and bus connects. They are only concerned as it suits their agenda. You don't hear much of them when people park up on the pavement.

The NDA (National Disability Authority) were the ones who consulted with the NTA on the issue and they have been very vocal in various issues including cars on pavements over the last 18 or so years they are on the go.

They are a Government body by the way who are very active in promoting disability rights across a wide spectrum. They have not just come out of the woodwork for any hidden agenda.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

The NDA (National Disability Authority) were the ones who consulted with the NTA on the issue and they have been very vocal in various issues including cars on pavements over the last 18 or so years they are on the go.

They are a Government body by the way who are very active in promoting disability rights across a wide spectrum. They have not jusy come out of the woodwork for any hidden agenda.

I know and thats fair enough but a lot of the NBRU brigade have popped out of the woodwork on Twitter claiming to really care about people with disabilities all of a sudden.

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I never once said anything about where anybody belongs.

According to some posters on here over the last little while, we've had the point made that Dublin Bus is very much engaged with the disabled community and really wants to put them first because of their values. I was merely pointing out that with Airlink, they seemingly have not stuck to the same values that according to others, they hold so dear and were passionate about.

Nobody is short for services for cheap/ free and easily accessible. If they want an express route however, or a premium service then they should pay extra for that

You will notice that I did not mention the cost at all or the price, because this is not about price and trying to drag something into it that isn't even related to the point at hand. Just because a disabled person has to pay for something, it doesn't mean that they matter less. As GM228 has pretty much suggested, the FTP is very much a red herring here.

Aircoach are receiving funding and should be using wheelchair friendly buses , not coaches. Mind you they use coaches but spend an awful lot of time in the city doing Dublin bus speeds anyway. (Less than 50kmh)

Their colour scheme ? It may aswell be black if we're talking about visually impaired people here, which we are, you don't agree they should have a bright front also ? Or are you just looking to argue because airlink is dark green ? Which also might aswell be black if you're visually impaired.

Are you seriously suggesting that we should ban coaches on any service that accepts the free travel pass or gets any subsidy? You would want people to travel for several hours on a more cramped city bus with less padded seats on a bus that might have a lower speed limit than a coach so therefore taking longer for the patrons to reach their destination?

A bus is not a coach. Even to suggest it is, is a rather ludicrous argument. It's like saying that a light rail vehicle is the same as a train when it clearly isn't. It would also mean that Bus Eireann would have to pretty much throw out over half it's fleet because the majority of it is coaches and you'd have many operators, from the man with a couple of coaches, to the bigger operators, effectively having to replace the majority, if not all of their fleets.

Their colour scheme ? It may aswell be black if we're talking about visually impaired people here, which we are, you don't agree they should have a bright front also ? Or are you just looking to argue because airlink is dark green ? Which also might aswell be black if you're visually impaired.

Hang on, I thought that the whole reason the front of the bus was to be painted yellow was because it helps visually impaired people, now you are saying that the colour doesn't matter? Starting to get a little confused here.

Aircoach have a bright and fairly distinctive livery that can be seen from a long way off. It's not dark by any stretch of the imagination, it's so distinctive that people know it as the big blue bus in Cork and other places, whereas the Airlink Livery certainly is much darker at the front.

Is it possible that Dublin bus are NOT allowed to have the same livery as a PSO livery because it might be conflicting?

Yet Dublin Bus operated a yellow livery quite happily on Airlink before they decided that they would go over to green, which was a clear step-back for the visually impaired who went from an easy to see livery to a darker one. Did any of the disabled groups make representations then? If not why did they not but they can now? Also there are other bright colours available apart from yellow that can be picked!

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I never once said anything about where anybody belongs, people have a right to choose what they want to do but everything shouldn't be free just because.

It's very simple actually, there are services to get them to the airport from the city from 2 different companies

Dublin bus: 41, 16 , regular routes which are yellow in colours and pass friendly

Aircoach: 700, 702 , 703, that go from an array of places from the southside that they can also use.

Nobody is short for services for cheap/ free and easily accessible. If they want an express route however, or a premium service then they should pay extra for that

A perfect example of this is the Irish rail train from Dublin to cork. If you have a free pass, you are not entitled to a booked seat. You're also not entitled to enter the premium or first class carriages but they can if they PAY for it. It's a very similar thing here.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying airlink is great , the thing goes half way around the city before hitting the airport and I wouldn't use it personally but if someone WANTS to use it then of course they should pay for a service that does not receive any funding.

If they don't want to pay then great , there's other services there.

But what has paying vs not paying got to do with recognition of the needs of the disabled? The issue has absolutely nothing to do with that.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

IAircoach are receiving funding and should be using wheelchair friendly buses , not coaches, (yes, regardless of name).

Mind you they use coaches but spend an awful lot of time in the city doing Dublin bus speeds anyway. (Less than 50kmh)

Most (if not all) Aircoach buses are wheelchair friendly.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

ITheir colour scheme ? It may aswell be black if we're talking about visually impaired people here, which we are, you don't agree they should have a bright front also ? Or are you just looking to argue because airlink is dark green ? Which also might aswell be black if you're visually impaired.

If the aircoach blue is fine then they wouldn't have changed the go-ahead front now would they ?

The issue is about brightness rather than a particular colour, the Aircoach colour is bright enough so hardly comparable to Airlink, but yes if the NTA livery was not good enough then yes the Airlink and Aircoach livery should change also, this is the very point, if the NTA livery was not good enough then any non bright livery should also not be good enough.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

IIs it possible that Dublin bus are NOT allowed to have the same livery as a PSO livery because it might be conflicting ? In the same way bus Eireann has changed some routes to expressway and red buses ? Maybe the NTA have something to do with that they don't want their NTA services confused with private ventures ?

The DB livery is not a PSO livery (and neither is the BE livery), they are in house designed and registered and the NTA would have zero control over their use on non PSO services.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

devnull wrote: »

According to some posters on here over the last little while, we've had the point made that Dublin Bus is very much engaged with the disabled community and really wants to put them first because of their values. I was merely pointing out that with Airlink, they seemingly have not stuck to the same values that according to others, they hold so dear and were passionate about.



You will notice that I did not mention the cost at all or the price, because this is not about price and trying to drag something into it that isn't even related to the point at hand. It's about the livery and the impact on the disabled and how that transport providers provide services to said groups in society. So no need to bring a red-herring such as having to pay extra, I'm not even sure the free travel pass is relevant to a debate about liveries either.



Are you seriously suggesting that we should ban coaches on any service that accepts the free travel pass or gets any subsidy? You would want people to travel for several hours on a more cramped city bus with less padded seats on a bus that might have a lower speed limit than a coach so therefore taking longer for the patrons to reach their destination?

A bus is not a coach. Even to suggest it is, is a rather ludicrous argument. It's like saying that a light rail vehicle is the same as a train when it clearly isn't. It would also mean that Bus Eireann would have to pretty much throw out over half it's fleet because the majority of it is coaches



Hang on, I thought that the whole reason the front of the bus was to be painted yellow was because it helps visually impaired people, now you are saying that the colour doesn't matter? Starting to get a little confused here.

Aircoach have a bright and fairly distinctive livery that can be seen from a long way off. It's not dark by any stretch of the imagination, it's so distinctive that people know it as the big blue bus in Cork and other places, whereas the Airlink Livery certainly is much darker at the front.



Yet Dublin Bus operated a yellow livery quite happily on Airlink before they decided that they would go over to green, which was a clear step-back for the visually impaired who went from an easy to see livery to a darker one. Did any of the disabled groups make representations then? If not why did they not but they can now? Also there are other bright colours available apart from yellow!

Dublin bus are engaged with the disabled people to help them get around day to day. Dublin bus themselves have presented this.

The cost is a fact in this because it comes down to funding to accept the card. Quite frankly people need to forget that airlink is Dublin bus. For all arguments sake it may aswell be "Joe bloggs transport co." And the simple fact with airlink is Dublin bus can pull the plug on it overnight and nobody could do a thing about it, no group , no committee, no government , no NTA or anyone can force a company to run a private service.

Unless you want to paint every bus in the country that goes to an airport in the same colour then I'd agree, every bus in the country that goes to an airport should have a pink front for example. But you just seem to be picking on Dublin bus here, if you want it friendly for all then pick on Dublin bus but also pick on expressway, dualway airport hopper, wexford bus, aircoach, expressbus, McGinley and all the rest otherwise your arguement is pointless.

Going from killiany to Dublin airport isint exactly a 2 and a half day camal ride now is it, it's well withing the realms of a Dublin bus run. And with the speeds of less than 60kmh legally anyway there's not a lot of difference except it'll be much easier for people in wheelchairs and even people walking to embark a low floor bus, and if they get double deckers it would also increase capacity ?

The reason bus Eireann have coaches as opposed to buses is because of the high speeds and length of routes. (You won't be going from Dublin to Ballina in a city bus no matter what) that requires seatbelts , so again your arguement is invalid there

Don't forget the front of aircoach has very little blue on it thanks to their very large windscreens and also they do sometimes carry all over advertising wraps which doesn't help if your visibly impaired. They need to be more distinctive also if you also want airlink more distinctive.

Airlink changed colour a long time ago and very coincidentally so did bus eireann to expressway, i.e they separated their state funded services from their private ventures . I'm sure there's a reason for that somewhere someone will come along with, but all I'm saying is that it's no coincidence that happened !

Yes there are other colours than yellow, I quite like unlterbuses pink funny enough, they stand out incredibly well and could be something to consider in future if the NTA wanted to help further.

But again back to the earlier point , airlink, aircoach, airport hopper etc. They are all privately run and don't have to do these things if they don't want to. The VGs on airlink are privately owned by Dublin bus in the same way airport hopper own their own Iveco turas buses, nobody can force them to change their colour

It would be like either myself or yourself setting up a bus company tomorrow and someone else telling you want to be called or what colour to be, and it just doesn't work like that

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

GM228 wrote: »

But what has paying vs not paying got to do with recognition of the needs of the disabled? The issue has absolutely nothing to do with that.





Most (if not all) Aircoach buses are wheelchair friendly.





The issue is about brightness rather than a particular colour, the Aircoach colour is bright enough so hardly comparable to Airlink, but yes if the NTA livery was not good enough then yes the Airlink and Aircoach livery should change also, this is the very point, if the NTA livery was not good enough then any non bright livery should also not be good enough.





The DB livery is not a PSO livery (and neither is the BE livery), they are in house designed and registered and the NTA would have zero control over their use on non PSO services.

1) paying is as per I said about being funded to accept free travel etc , it does play an important part

2) they are wheelchair friendly in the same way bus Eireann coaches are wheelchair friendly, where you have to call up in advance and they have to remove 4 seats and it's a slow process to raise you into the coach and secure you down with seatbelts.

From their website

Wheelchair Access
The majority of our coaches are fully accessible and can accommodate one wheel chair user at any one time. Wheelchair users wishing to travel must contact the Aircoach Travel Office at least 24hrs in advance of travel. Our Travel Office is open Monday to Sunday from 09:00 until 17:30 each day. For wheelchair reservations please contact us on 00 353 1 8447118 or 0044 28 9033 0655.

If you call that wheelchair friendly then what about all those people giving out about the 24hour booking with bus eireann ? It's not the same, city buses would be more suitable for the services aircoach provide which is still slow city driving.

3) this is my point, it should be a one for all in this case , agreed.

4) I was nearly sure the NTA had something to do with their recent liverys since they have logos for TFI around them etc. that bus Eireann can't just change their PSO colours tomorrow for example

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

1) paying is as per I said about being funded to accept free travel etc , it does play an important part

No it does not, having free travel or not has nothing to do with a persons disability requirements, how is being paid or not to accept free travel playing an important part in that recognition?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

12) they are wheelchair friendly in the same way bus Eireann coaches are wheelchair friendly, where you have to call up in advance and they have to remove 4 seats and it's a slow process to raise you into the coach and secure you down with seatbelts.

From their website

Wheelchair Access
The majority of our coaches are fully accessible and can accommodate one wheel chair user at any one time. Wheelchair users wishing to travel must contact the Aircoach Travel Office at least 24hrs in advance of travel. Our Travel Office is open Monday to Sunday from 09:00 until 17:30 each day. For wheelchair reservations please contact us on 00 353 1 8447118 or 0044 28 9033 0655.

If you call that wheelchair friendly then what about all those people giving out about the 24hour booking with bus eireann ? It's not the same, city buses would be more suitable for the services aircoach provide which is still slow city driving.

Yes it's slow and cumbersome, agreed.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

14) I was nearly sure the NTA had something to do with their recent liverys since they have logos for TFI around them etc. that bus Eireann can't just change their PSO colours tomorrow for example

The logos are on them because they are used for PSO, BE have actually changed their PSO colours several times over the last 15 or so years, more than DB and it has nothing to do with the NTA.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

GM228 wrote: »

No it does not, having free travel or not has nothing to do with a persons disability requirements, how is being paid or not to accept free travel playing an important part in that recognition?.

Because it's not funded. It is a private run business and nobody can tell a private business what to do.

If you set up a bus company tomorrow with only a coach with no wheelchair accessibility, because you're private, nobody can tell you that you have to have wheelchair access.

But when it's a public obligation then yes it's a different situation completely.

But in airlinks case, they could essentially, if they wanted to, change their whole airlink fleet to ford transits with no wheelchair access, and any colour they wanted.

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Dublin bus are engaged with the disabled people to help them get around day to day. Dublin bus themselves have presented this.

And that has been stated by a number of people on this thread. However, if a company has such values they should be there fully and throughout the company, rather than having a two tier system where they apply them to some of their services but not to others.

The cost is a fact in this because it comes down to funding to accept the card. Quite frankly people need to forget that airlink is Dublin bus. For all arguments sake it may aswell be "Joe bloggs transport co." And the simple fact with airlink is Dublin bus can pull the plug on it overnight and nobody could do a thing about it, no group , no committee, no government , no NTA or anyone can force a company to run a private service.

More deflection rather than discussing the topic at hand. Airlink is operated by Dublin Bus FACT and nothing you can do or say will change that and the reason it is relevant is because other posters have suggested that Dublin Bus places a lot of importance on helping the disabled. I was merely pointing out that this does not appear to extend to their commercial services.

Unless you want to paint every bus in the country that goes to an airport in the same colour then I'd agree, every bus in the country that goes to an airport should have a pink front for example.

But you just seem to be picking on Dublin bus here, if you want it friendly for all then pick on Dublin bus but also pick on expressway, dualway airport hopper, wexford bus, aircoach, expressbus, McGinley and all the rest otherwise your arguement is pointless.

The point is that some people have decided that a not that dark Blue livery is bad for Go-Ahead as it is not good for the visually impaired but do not appear to have the same problem with a darker livery operated by Dublin Bus. I was merely pointing out the inconsistency in the argument.

Don't forget the front of aircoach has very little blue on it thanks to their very large windscreens and also they do sometimes carry all over advertising wraps which doesn't help if your visibly impaired. They need to be more distinctive also if you also want airlink more distinctive.

Funnily enough I'd say that an average Aircoach vehicle probably has more bright blue on it than your average Dublin Bus vehicle has yellow, because half of the front of a Dublin Bus is dark blue which is much harder to see than any colour used by Aircoach or the NTA.

Airlink changed colour a long time ago and very coincidentally so did bus eireann to expressway, i.e they separated their state funded services from their private ventures . I'm sure there's a reason for that somewhere someone will come along with, but all I'm saying is that it's no coincidence that happened!

Probably because they thought it was commercially better for them. Note that the DB livery is trademarked so nobody could stop them using it for commercial routes if that is what they really wanted to. But lets not let such a fact get in the way of a false narrative.

But again back to the earlier point , airlink, aircoach, airport hopper etc. They are all privately run and don't have to do these things if they don't want to. The VGs on airlink are privately owned by Dublin bus in the same way airport hopper own their own Iveco turas buses, nobody can force them to change their colour

The ownership has nothing to do with it. The simple fact is that on this thread it has been seemingly suggested that DB used the yellow livery as it assists the disabled and that is the result of the company placing a very high value on helping disabled patrons see their bus coming by using the yellow livery.

I was merely wondering why people felt that DB were so passionate about this yellow livery and it was a reason that it should not be lost to a fairly bright blue TFI livery. It just seemed odd to me why others felt that DB would perhaps back the idea that the TFI livery was too dark and put the visually impaired at a disadvantage, when DB used a darker one themselves for the last 10 years when that surely would disadvantage them too?

devnull

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Because it's not funded. It is a private run business and nobody can tell a private business what to do.

But my argument was never about public vs private, funded vs non funded, all of this is deflection from what the original discussion was about which was about why a fairly light blue livery is bad for disabled people and must not be allowed and yellow must be in it, while a dark green livery that is much harder to see hasn't been a problem for 10 years.

This suggests that either the people who stated such on this thread believethat the same requirements don't apply or are not needed for potential disabled patrons using ta premium airport service, ultimately creating a two tier system within DBs portfolio of services or that there is another reason that they object to the blue livery that is brighter than the dark green one DB saw fit to use for ten years.

dfx-

It's worth reminding for your argument that this is entirely a GA-NTA engineered cock-up on PSO services.

If there was more time spent organising this on time with the consultation and less on blaming DB, maybe there'd not be a problem.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

It's worth reminding for your argument that this is entirely a GA-NTA engineered cock-up on PSO services.

If there was more time spent organising this on time with the consultation and less on blaming DB, maybe there'd not be a problem.

I wasn't blaming Dublin Bus I was merely pointing out some things which appear to contradict what has been claimed in the thread.

I am just wondering why someone could oppose a blue livery that has not operated revenue services on the basis it is too dark and the incumbent operator uses yellow to prevent this because it is so important when said operator chooses not to on it's premium services for the last ten years.

A recent poster appeared to speculate that such service is not intended for the disabled and there are other slower services that are for them. This effectively means a two tier system if this is true unless there is some other reason that they oppose the blue livery but have no problem with the darker green livery?

dfx-

It's obvious. You can influence the PSO services, these are PSO services, so you can oppose them to be like other PSO services, currently operated by the incumbent operator.

What the incumbent operator does on non-PSO services has nothing to do with it.

theskeptic

I think it is time for us - in particular the media - to stop referring to change in terms of left or right wing politics/philosophies. It would be more useful to categorise politicians and proposed changes as either progressive or "radical" conservative.

Progressives:

* Let's look at problem X and try applying some new ideas and ones that work in similar countries.
* We won't get everything right - the more new things we try, the more mistakes will be made.
* We'll learn from our (and others') mistakes and tweak the solution or try another new solution.

Radical Conservatives:

* That new bus colour is wrong.
* I don't like the economic model of that transport company.
* Mrs Jones will have to walk another 50m to her bus.
* That proposed new building would be too high.
* We can't build an underground because that would result in a hole in the ground.
* I say I don't like the status quo but I'll scare the voters about any change and tell them I am here to protect them and make sure nothing changes.

Politicians of all parties (so called left and right) straddle the radical conservative / progressive divide. Until people (and the media) start analysing all politicians in terms of RC/P, we are doomed to do very little in this country; including radically improving our public transport.

KD345

devnull wrote: »

This suggests that either the people who stated such on this thread believethat the same requirements don't apply or are not needed for potential disabled patrons using ta premium airport service, ultimately creating a two tier system within DBs portfolio of services or that there is another reason that they object to the blue livery that is brighter than the dark green one DB saw fit to use for ten years.

To be fair, the Airlink and Aircoach are deliberately two tier, that’s the very reason for their existence. Everything about them is different, from their corporate livery, higher fares, express route and frequency.

You’re absolutely right that there is an obvious contradiction here, how can a company concerned about visibility on their vehicles leave a number of them in dark green. However, you’re not comparing like with like, the commercial arm of Dublin Bus has a different agenda to the rest of the company. Somewhere along the line they felt a dark green vehicle was the right look for their commercial vehicles to compete against their rivals - for example, you’ll often hear people taking the blue bus or green bus to or from the airport. It is difficult to market something as a superior product when it looks the exact same as a regular service vehicle.

To go back to the point of PSO vehicles, I can understand the concerns of disability groups, and as awful as the new revised Go Ahead looks, I feel it was the right thing to do. It’s a shame we’ve had so much drama about this when the NTA could have prevented it.

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

To be fair, the Airlink and Aircoach are deliberately two tier, that’s the very reason for their existence. Everything about them is different, from their corporate livery, higher fares, express route and frequency.

But I wasn't talking about two tiers of services being offered across different companies. I was talking about a single company who divides by choice their own services into two tiers in relation to assisting the visually impaired.

You’re absolutely right that there is an obvious contradiction here, how can a company concerned about visibility on their vehicles leave a number of them in dark green. However, you’re not comparing like with like, the commercial arm of Dublin Bus has a different agenda to the rest of the company.

I have worked in a previous role where we have fulfilled contracts on behalf of the public sector as well as contracts which are purely commercial and the company I worked for had a strong set of values which we applied throughout both types of contracts, because the values were important to us and we would never sacrifice them because we held them so dear. I just am a principled person and believe if values are really important you stick to them all the time.

If that we are saying that Dublin Bus considers that taking actions to assist those who have visual impairments is lower of the agenda of the commercial operations rather than the PSO operations, they that would suggest that people believe the values in Dublin Bus as a whole in relation to serving these people are not as high as was claimed a few pages back, since they believe we have a two tier system when it comes to serving these people.

Somewhere along the line they felt a dark green vehicle was the right look for their commercial vehicles to compete against their rivals - for example, you’ll often hear people taking the blue bus or green bus to or from the airport. It is difficult to market something as a superior product when it looks the exact same as a regular service vehicle.

You do realise that they could have chosen another bright colour? The choice wasn't between the PSO livery and a dark green livery. There are lots of different liveries that they could have used which would still have been distinctive and would have allowed them to stand out, without having to disregard the principles that we are told are present throughout the company as a whole. which it seems actually are not.

To go back to the point of PSO vehicles, I can understand the concerns of disability groups, and as awful as the new revised Go Ahead looks, I feel it was the right thing to do. It’s a shame we’ve had so much drama about this when the NTA could have prevented it.

So if it is the case then surely Dublin Bus won't have any problems in painting the vehicles the same, If we're told wanting to keep the yellow is simply about helping the visually impaired and disabled? Especially considering the blue on the front of the TFI livery is very visible where the dark DB Blue is not so visible on a night and that is a clear way to help the disabled that we are told by posters on here that they are so passionate (on PSO services anyway) about.

Stephen15

How the new livery will look from the front, on the single deckers and with the TFI logo applied. I assume this is the final version.

Reminds me a bit of the old Airlink livery with the green and yellow combination.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

How the new livery will look from the front, on the single deckers and with the TFI logo applied. I assume this is the final version.

Reminds me a bit of the old Airlink livery with the green and yellow combination.

It actually looks better on the nearside than it does on the far-side on the double deckers. The TFI logo really stands out now and I'm sure that is the silver lining to the cloud that has been hanging over the NTA offices in relation to this whole ridiculous situation which has happened at the last minute.

On the single decker it looks better, wonder if they could have just had more blue on the side of the bus rather than so much yellow and just gone for the yellow at the front, more like the single decker?

SG317

devnull wrote:

You do realise that they could have chosen another bright colour? The choice wasn't between the PSO livery and a dark green livery. There are lots of different liveries that they could have used which would still have been distinctive and would have allowed them to stand out, without having to disregard the principles that we are told are present throughout the company as a whole. which it seems actually are not.

You clearly have an anti-Dublin Bus Agenda, as you consistently keep going on about the Airlink Livery and how Dublin Bus according to you "are operating a two tier system" . Your claim that Dublin Bus don't care about the visually impaired is ridiculous, for instance Dublin Bus could have chosen a Grey/Purple Livery and there would have been little anyone could do about it. Look at the Luas that was launched roughly around the same time as the Dublin Bus Livery, its colour scheme was a Greyish Purple that is not the most visibility friendly colour and the Luas is a PSO service not a commercial service. It was only a few years later the yellow stripes were added to make it more visible at night and more visible for the visually impaired. However, Dublin Bus carried out an extensive consultation with all relevant disability groups and created a livery that they were all happy with. Bare in mind Dublin Bus could have chosen any livery they wanted, but they went for the yellow as this is one of the easiest colours for people with visual impairments to see.

And regarding the Airlink, that is a different brand to the Dublin Bus essentially like Do Dublin, it's run by Dublin Bus but it's a commercial service and is separate from the PSO services, so the branding will obviously be different. The Airlink is also a mix of Light and Dark Green, it's not just dark green as you keep claiming. The vehicles also have yellow handrails, something the initial NTA livery didn't have. So if anything it's not Dublin Bus operating a two tier system but rather it's you who is operating a two tier system, as you are holding Dublin Bus to some extreme scrutiny that you aren't holding the NTA to.

devnull

Route 175 is now on the Go-Ahead website with the following note

Go-Ahead Ireland is delighted to launch their first bus route, the 175, running from UCD to Citywest. This 24 km route, will pick passengers up from 65 stops (from UCD to Citywest), 63 stops (from Citywest to UCD) and will be serviced a fleet of 9 buses and 19 Go-Ahead Ireland drivers.

They're also linking to the Transport for Ireland Journey planner, which will allow people to access journey planning information from all bus, rail and tram bus services. Lets hope that Dublin Bus follow soon since LUAS already do this.

devnull

SG317 wrote: »

And regarding the Airlink, that is a different brand to the Dublin Bus essentially like Do Dublin, its run by Dublin Bus but its a commercial service and is separate from the PSO services, so the branding will obviously be different. The Airlink is also a mix of Light and Dark Green, it's not just dark green as you keep claiming.

The fact is though, Airlink is a part of Dublin Bus and if you hold values strong enough, you hold them throughout your company, not just keep to them for some of your activities and disregard them for others. They could have picked another bright colour, there are many of them, and not used dark green at all but they chose not to. That's a fact also too.

The bottom of the vehicles is dark green and it's hard to see from the front at night, especially for the visually impaired. The original NTA livery from the front was brighter and we are told that the NTA livery is too dark at the front, despite being brighter than Airlink so therefore it stands to reason that the Airlink livery is too dark too if we are being consistent with our points.

Anyway, this is going round in circles, so we'll have to agree to disagree I guess, since I certainly understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with it myself.

The vehicles also have yellow handrails, something the initial NTA livery didn't have.

You will notice that I haven't even mentioned yellow handrails at all - the NTA made a mistake with this and the idea of having silver handrails on a bus was certainly a mistake on their part, so you're not going to see me defend them on that, they should rightly be slammed for this stupid amateur mistake.

KD345

devnull wrote: »

But I wasn't talking about two tiers of services being offered across different companies. I was talking about a single company who divides by choice their own services into two tiers in relation to assisting the visually impaired.

I have worked in a previous role where we have fulfilled contracts on behalf of the public sector as well as contracts which are purely commercial and the company I worked for had a strong set of values which we applied throughout both types of contracts, because the values were important to us and we would never sacrifice them because we held them so dear. I just am a principled person and believe if values are really important you stick to them all the time.

If that we are saying that Dublin Bus considers that taking actions to assist those who have visual impairments is lower of the agenda of the commercial operations rather than the PSO operations, they that would suggest that people believe the values in Dublin Bus as a whole in relation to serving these people are not as high as was claimed a few pages back, since they believe we have a two tier system when it comes to serving these people.

You do realise that they could have chosen another bright colour? The choice wasn't between the PSO livery and a dark green livery. There are lots of different liveries that they could have used which would still have been distinctive and would have allowed them to stand out, without having to disregard the principles that we are told are present throughout the company as a whole. which it seems actually are not.

So if it is the case then surely Dublin Bus won't have any problems in painting the vehicles the same, If we're told wanting to keep the yellow is simply about helping the visually impaired and disabled? Especially considering the blue on the front of the TFI livery is very visible where the dark DB Blue is not so visible on a night and that is a clear way to help the disabled that we are told by posters on here that they are so passionate (on PSO services anyway) about.

I don’t disagree with any of your points, but this is a commercially run service competing with other private brands and operators. I’m guessing they did marketing research which showed a gap in the market for a green Airport express bus and ran with it. They may view this service differently to their regular routes. It would not be uncommon for companies to have different policies and priorities for different sections of their business.

The Airlink livery is due an update. The current design was for a different type of vehicle, and the swish design has become patchy and has lost much of it’s sleek look. Perhaps Dublin Bus will decide to opt for a brighter colour in the future.

john boye

SG317 wrote: »

However, Dublin Bus carried out an extensive consultation with all relevant disability groups and created a livery that they were all happy with.

They didn't. They wanted a white livery but weren't set in stone on it. I was working for a company who they approached at the time for ideas with the design work. They didn't go with us ultimately but There was no mention whatsoever in the proposals of the livery having to be visible to people with disabilities, that is a myth which has grown and grown over the years, and they were open to all suggestions for colours. The white was shot down by maintenance dept who suggested yellow as an alternative.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

It actually looks better on the nearside than it does on the far-side on the double deckers. The TFI logo really stands out now and I'm sure that is the silver lining to the cloud that has been hanging over the NTA offices in relation to this whole ridiculous situation which has happened at the last minute.

On the single decker it looks better, wonder if they could have just had more blue on the side of the bus rather than so much yellow and just gone for the yellow at the front, more like the single decker?

I suppose the argument was that the yellow covers the same proportion of the single decker as it does on the double decker. It's a bit better than I first thought in the first pictures I saw where it looked awful but I'm still not a huge fan it looks ok I suppose.

I can see why they have made the changes even if it does make the livery less attractive however I still think it's better than the current DB livery also ads and the TFI logo should mask up the yellow on the drivers side.

GM228

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

If you set up a bus company tomorrow with only a coach with no wheelchair accessibility, because you're private, nobody can tell you that you have to have wheelchair access.

But when it's a public obligation then yes it's a different situation completely.

But in airlinks case, they could essentially, if they wanted to, change their whole airlink fleet to ford transits with no wheelchair access, and any colour they wanted.

That is set to change, in March 2018 the Government finally (after 11 years having signed it in 2007) ratified the UN Convention on Rights of Persons with Disabilities, it came into force on 19th April.

One of the provisions of the convention is that ANY company operating a service to the public will have to provide wheelchair accessible vehicles weather they be private or public owned/operated.

There will obviously be derogations for existing non compliant operators (and naturally enough non wheelchair taxis), but any existing operator can't get rid of the facility and any new operator will have to be wheelchair compliant.

The state now has obligations under International Law to ensure this happens and any action by a company offering a service to the public which denies these rights will be breaching a persons fundamental rights.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

There will obviously be derogations for existing non compliant operators (and naturally enough non wheelchair taxis), but any existing operator can't get rid of the facility and any new operator will have to be wheelchair compliant.

Will this mean any taxi driver which currently drives a wheelchair accesible one won't be allowed switch it for a non wheelchair accesible one?

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Will this mean any taxi driver which currently drives a wheelchair accesible one won't be allowed switch it for a non wheelchair accesible one?

No, taxis will be exempt I believe.

Stephen15

I should hope the livery for the GA routes currently operated by BE will also have yellow in their livery and also the tendered BE Waterford City Routes. It should also now be extended to the 139.

john boye

Is there anything to be said for painting the teal stripe yellow too? Even just on one vehicle to see how it looks. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, turn both stripes towards the rear rather than the front and have one white and one yellow?

Stephen15

Another thing have noticed in the pictures that bars at the front of the buses are still silver/grey on DB buses these bars are painted navy. Should these bars on Go-Ahead buses not have to be painted a darker colour such as navy or black in order to contrast with the yellow.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Another thing have noticed in the pictures that bars at the front of the buses are still silver/grey on DB buses these bars are painted navy. Should these bars on Go-Ahead buses not have to be painted a darker colour such as navy or black in order to contrast with the yellow.

Bars? Do you mean the Wrights styled grilles, all the GA buses have had these supplied silver as opposed to the DB buses, it is possible they are chromed and not suitable for repainting as I have noticed some repainted ex DB buses with them colour coordinated.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

Bars? Do you mean the Wrights styled grilles, all the GA buses have had these supplied silver as opposed to the DB buses, it is possible they are chromed and not suitable for repainting as I have noticed some repainted ex DB buses with them colour coordinated.

No I'm talking about the handrails at the front of the passenger saloon around the Leap validators and the drivers cab which are painted navy on DB buses.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

No I'm talking about the handrails at the front of the passenger saloon around the Leap validators and the drivers cab which are painted navy on DB buses.

Reason for this is to cut down on reflection or shine from them as they shine off the windscreen.

Kh1993

Fairly strange one: Brand new DB Yellow stops gone into the ground along the Kilbarrack end of the 17a route, which is due to swap to GA in a couple of months. Waste of resources or something I don't know?

dublinman1990

New timetable layouts for the 175 are appearing in the shelters. Looks really good; but no fare information is available.

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

New timetable layouts for the 175 are appearing in the shelters. Looks really good; but no fare information is available.

Well that's very nice and integrated and I really like that layout, it's similar to the LUAS one, just with using the blue colour rather than the purple one and I think it really makes the whole "Colour by Mode" policy of the NTA show it's worth.

Have to say having a list of the stops on the route is a step forward and the general layout is really nice and much more slick than anything we've seen before. Are the times from the terminus or for the actual stop? If the later that's a big step forward.

Agree though it should show fares - couldn't they just show the fare zones by showing the first stage boundary in white, with a little note to say the cash/leap fare, the second in a light grey shading and the third in white like below?

dublinman1990

These timetables from the photo above are a huge step forward from the previous ones. It now displays the predicted time the bus reaches the stop and also has a QR code for times.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Have to say having a list of the stops on the route is a step forward and the general layout is really nice and much more slick than anything we've seen before. Are the times from the terminus or for the actual stop? If the later that's a big step forward.

+1 it appears it is stop specific information as it appears to only mention the destination of the buses shown and not the origin of the services if it is not then that is confusing as it does not mention where the bus has originated from. Hopefully if it is stop specific information the times posted at the stops are accurate and just guesstimations.

XPS_Zero

Stephen15 wrote: »

To be fair many of the "disability activists" have only popped out of the woodwork since the new livery and bus connects was announced. They are using people with disabilities as a battering ram to object to NTA proposals such as tendering and bus connects. They are only concerned as it suits their agenda. You don't hear much of them when people park up on the pavement.

Any time there is major plan to progress something in this country there will be some astroturf group or even worse a real group suddenly popping up to oppose it strongly. Remember a few MINOR diversions and bends taken out of the likes of the 7 route meaning a slightly longer walk to a bus stop for a tiny number of passengers with a huge 10 min saving of journey times and they were all up in arms...f**K the rest of the people, what aboout ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME my little estate does not have a bus every 6 minutes and I've to walk slightly longer WA WA WA WA WA! There are no other people in the world except ME!

"the new Dublin-LA direct service has been postponed as the people of the town of Ballykisssmearse have launched a major protest that a Knock like airport was not constructed in their town alongside a built in stopover for the new route - local TD , Publican, lawyer, construction company owner, and secondary school teacher Billy Cumonouttadat said today 'they claim this is an express service, but it's not very express for the people of Ballykissmearse is it? Why was no thought given to Ballykissmearse? I tell you why coz it's nat Dublin dats why dey only care 'bout dem up in Dublin I tell ye so dey do, we need to be included on dis route, there are two peeple in diz area who assure me in the strongest possible terms dat dey would love to pop ovar te Compton for a pint a milk n a paaapar but because Ballykissmeararse is nat included dey're shut out, SHUT OUT I tell ye! it's a disgrace!', the minister has halted the route and embarked on a 6 month review which should be completed by 2065 in time for the 169th reannouncement of Dart Underground and the Dublin Metro"

.G.

john boye wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for painting the teal stripe yellow too? Even just on one vehicle to see how it looks. Or if you're feeling really adventurous, turn both stripes towards the rear rather than the front and have one white and one yellow?

Was thinking the same myself regarding the teal stripe. It really doesn't fit with the rest of the livery now. It should be yellow too and the yellow on the side should flow in the same direction as the other two stripes, so from the top front corner sweeping down to the bottom just behind the front wheel. Then it'd be fine IMO.

n!ghtmancometh

Will my tax saver leap card work on the GA operated routes?

xper

dublinman1990 wrote: »

New timetable layouts for the 175 are appearing in the shelters. Looks really good; but no fare information is available.

Yeah, saw one of these in person earlier today. Good layout. Only criticism I would have is the the overemphasis on differentiating the operators - TFI should be doing everything they can to make sure customers understand that the Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus routes are all part of a combined city service. What happens at stops also used by Bus Eireann, Aircoach and other private operators?