Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

punisher5112

That seems to be what's going around alright.

dB management are staying very quiet so much so the unions can't even get a meeting over it.

Stephen15

Am I right there is a pay claim in next month so we could a strike between now and then.

devnull

From what I've read they will start recruiting drivers in May.

They're also advertising for a couple more head office roles now as well.

https://www.go-aheaddublin.ie/

liger

Stephen15 wrote: »

Am I right there is a pay claim in next month so we could a strike between now and then.

Heard noting about that.. The final payment increase from the last strike was only applied this month but you'd never know.

As for routes transferring, Afaik the routes will be transferred over in stages.

It'll be interesting to see if any familiar faces (Ex DB/CIE) show up in head office of GA. haven't seen any announcements regarding appointments.

LeinsterDub

Any idea if Go Bus will use their own RTI or piggy back on DBs . Hopefully it's their own as DBs isn't fit for purpose

MOH

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Any idea if Go Bus will use their own RTI or piggy back on DBs . Hopefully it's their own as DBs isn't fit for purpose

I've never been quite clear on whether there's anything technically wrong with it, or if it's just the way in which they operate it that's utterly incompetent

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Any idea if Go Bus will use their own RTI or piggy back on DBs . Hopefully it's their own as DBs isn't fit for purpose

The NTA run the real time not DB so the DB app will probably be gone and replaced by the TFI app

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

The NTA run the real time not DB so the DB app will probably be gone and replaced by the TFI app

Yes but will Go have actual real time information relayed from the buses via GPS and radio or the DB guesstimation system?

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yes but will Go have actual real time information relayed from the buses via GPS and radio or the DB guesstimation system?

I guess that depends if a crystal ball has been invented that is able to predict the future by then.

Of course there is guessing when it comes to real time information - some traffic incidents, flows and collisions and passenger and pedestrian incidents cannot be predicted which will impact on the accuracy of the RTPI.

The way that DB are doing it is the same way it's done in other cities and using some of the very same technology - there are plenty of things to criticize DB about but this is not one of them IMO.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

I guess that depends if a crystal ball has been invented that is able to predict the future by then.

Why would it need a crystal ball ? I was waiting 12 minutes for a bus listed as due in 2 this morning that's max 5 minutes from its terminus. The bus was clearly not where it was meant to be and was running to "timetable". Perhaps it's as MOH say and it's technically fine but operated terribly

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why would it need a crystal ball ? I was waiting 12 minutes for a bus listed as due in 2 this morning that's max 5 minutes from its terminus. The bus was clearly not where it was meant to be and was running to "timetable". Perhaps it's as MOH say and it's technically fine but operated terribly

There could have been bad traffic, a delay at the previous bus stop, a queue of people getting on the list goes on.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

There could have been bad traffic, a delay at the previous bus stop, a queue of people getting on the list goes on.

It's a suburban terminus , traffic isn't an issue . I've reported this particular bus to DB 5 or 6 times already it's a regular occurrence.

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's a suburban terminus , traffic isn't an issue . I've reported this particular bus to DB 5 or 6 times already it's a regular occurrence.

Are there any schools nearby?

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

Are there any schools nearby?

Nope, 5 stops from the start of the route

VG31

There's a lot to criticise Dublin Bus/the transport system about but I can't understand the complaints about the real time information. For the most part it's accurate in my experience. Obviously if you are getting a bus at 5 pm in the city centre it's not going to be as reliable and you should expect it to possibly take longer than indicated. 'Ghost buses' do happen but they are rare enough.

I can't understand it when people come out with crazy statements like the RTPI being just based off the timetable. It's clearly not, otherwise it would be pointless and completely unreliable. Dublin's transport can learn a lot from other European cities but the real time is one area where Dublin is as good if not better than most.

MOH

VG31 wrote: »

I can't understand it when people come out with crazy statements like the RTPI being just based off the timetable. It's clearly not, otherwise it would be pointless and completely unreliable. Dublin's transport can learn a lot from other European cities but the real time is one area where Dublin is as good if not better than most.

In my experience, it *is* pointless and abysmally unreliable. Maybe I'm just unlucky, because a lot of people seem to think it's fine. But I pretty much ignore it at this stage.
If I've a choice of two buses at a stop, bus A leaves me ten minutes closer than bus B, and bus B arrives first with bus A showing as being due in two minutes, I'll get on the bus that's in front of me. Because in my experience there's a chance that bus A either won't turn up at all, and it certainly won't be there in two minutes.
Or cross city buses show up on RTPI as the scheduled bus, but the one that arrives is a XXC only going to the city centre.

But at the end of the day the RTPI system can only display the information being passed to it from DB. It'll be interesting to see if it 'magically' proves more accurate for another operator.

LeinsterDub

VG31 wrote: »

I can't understand it when people come out with crazy statements like the RTPI being just based off the timetable. It's clearly not, otherwise it would be pointless and completely unreliable. Dublin's transport can learn a lot from other European cities but the real time is one area where Dublin is as good if not better than most.

Ghost buses are caused by running from timetable that's an established fact I thought?

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ghost buses are caused by running from timetable that's an established fact I thought?

Ghost buses are often caused by the fact that vehicles are turned around or go out of service before they reach the stop in question because of significant late running.

As well as the recent timetable increases on some routes, there are also extra buses being deployed on routes to make the existing timetables more reliable and to reduce short running and dropped laps.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

Ghost buses are often caused by the fact that vehicles are turned around or go out of service before they reach the stop in question because of significant late running.

So that's a yes then? Honestly I'm not sure

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So that's a yes then? Honestly I'm not sure

A bus is assumed to be running the whole route and the subsequent departure that bus is scheduled to work until a decision is taken to the contrary.

If you didn't have this there would be little point in having RTPI at all.

devnull

RTPI predictions are based on a combination of two factors together
1) Current Position
2) Historical traffic and operational data

The historical data is used for that particular bus based on analysing the time that bus has taken between stops on hundreds of other days where that same bus has run - this is industry standard methodology as it takes into account traffic conditions appropriate for the time of day that the bus it's making a prediction for rather than just applying the same prediction over the whole day - we all know that a bus can cover some ground in 10 minutes at 1pm but could take 30 mins during rush hour and this system allows that to be taken into account.

The problem is there can be bad traffic, an accident, a problem with a bus, a long delay at a previous bus stop and a long list of things that can delay the bus - no system can allow for that, especially in a congested capital city like Dublin because these things are unpredictable and you have no way of knowing that they will happen until they actually do. RTPI in every single city it is used in is a prediction and an estimate and people need to bear that in mind.

What the RTPI system does do though is it looks at typical patterns of traffic, re-occuring delays that happen most of the time and work these predictable reoccuring patterns into it's RTPI indications in exactly the same way that Google gives it's estimates for driving times by taking these things into account to provide the most accurate possible estimates.

Whilst no RTPI system is perfect it's vastly better than the situation was without it - I was waiting in a bus stop for up to 30 minutes previously with no idea at all when a bus would turn up - sure it's annoying when a bus takes a few minutes more than you expect it to arrive, but there is a lot less 'pot luck' about waiting at a bus stop now and I can't help thinking that people are so used to RTPI now they're forgetting how bad it was before it existed.

DB are using industry leading equipment by the way - same as used in many major cities across Europe.

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Nope, 5 stops from the start of the route

What route was it? Just because it was 5 stops from the terminus dosen't mean there wasn't traffic.

ITV2

MOH wrote: »

In my experience, it *is* pointless and abysmally unreliable. Maybe I'm just unlucky, because a lot of people seem to think it's fine. But I pretty much ignore it at this stage.
If I've a choice of two buses at a stop, bus A leaves me ten minutes closer than bus B, and bus B arrives first with bus A showing as being due in two minutes, I'll get on the bus that's in front of me. Because in my experience there's a chance that bus A either won't turn up at all, and it certainly won't be there in two minutes.
Or cross city buses show up on RTPI as the scheduled bus, but the one that arrives is a XXC only going to the city centre.

But at the end of the day the RTPI system can only display the information being passed to it from DB. It'll be interesting to see if it 'magically' proves more accurate for another operator.

sure it'll be the same buses i.e. GT81-92(Donnybrook) so I can't see any difference.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

What route was it? Just because it was 5 stops from the terminus dosen't mean there wasn't traffic.

Will you stop making excuses I know my local area.

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Will you stop making excuses I know my local area.

Look up your timetable here:
https://journeyplanner.transportforireland.ie/nta/XSLT_SELTT_REQUEST?itdLPxx_page=ttb

See how long it allows for various times of day between those stops.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

RTPI predictions are based on a combination of two factors together
1) Current Position
2) Historical traffic and operational data

The historical data is used for that particular bus based on analysing the time that bus has taken between stops on hundreds of other days where that same bus has run - this is industry standard methodology as it takes into account traffic conditions appropriate for the time of day that the bus it's making a prediction for rather than just applying the same prediction over the whole day - we all know that a bus can cover some ground in 10 minutes at 1pm but could take 30 mins during rush hour and this system allows that to be taken into account.

The problem is there can be bad traffic, an accident, a problem with a bus, a long delay at a previous bus stop and a long list of things that can delay the bus - no system can allow for that, especially in a congested capital city like Dublin because these things are unpredictable and you have no way of knowing that they will happen until they actually do. RTPI in every single city it is used in is a prediction and an estimate and people need to bear that in mind.

What the RTPI system does do though is it looks at typical patterns of traffic, re-occuring delays that happen most of the time and work these predictable reoccuring patterns into it's RTPI indications in exactly the same way that Google gives it's estimates for driving times by taking these things into account to provide the most accurate possible estimates.

Whilst no RTPI system is perfect it's vastly better than the situation was without it - I was waiting in a bus stop for up to 30 minutes previously with no idea at all when a bus would turn up - sure it's annoying when a bus takes a few minutes more than you expect it to arrive, but there is a lot less 'pot luck' about waiting at a bus stop now and I can't help thinking that people are so used to RTPI now they're forgetting how bad it was before it existed.

DB are using industry leading equipment by the way - same as used in many major cities across Europe.

Good breakdown. Thanks for that. Where I feel the issue occurs based on absolutely no evidence expect for person experience is that a failure update the historic data coupled with a failure to highlight non running or city centre only routes and also a lack of feeding delays into the system such as x bus is 5 minutes behind schedule so it's departure from the terminus should be updated to reflect this. Leads to the system being very hit and miss for people. Also a simple notice would help.

Due to x DB would like to advise customers the RTI displayed maybe inaccurate.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

Look up your timetable here:
https://journeyplanner.transportforireland.ie/nta/XSLT_SELTT_REQUEST?itdLPxx_page=ttb

See how long it allows for various times of day between those stops.

Between 4 and 8 minutes. What is this meant to illustrate?

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Good breakdown. Thanks for that. Where I feel the issue occurs based on absolutely no evidence expect for person experience is that a failure update the historic data coupled with a failure to highlight non running or city centre only routes and also a lack of feeding delays into the system such as x bus is 5 minutes behind schedule so it's departure from the terminus should be updated to reflect this. Leads to the system being very hit and miss for people.

There is an issue where buses have their destination changed en-route to turn-around short but the system does not reflect that. For example a bus could be going from DL to Phoenix Park and by the fringes of the City Center the controller may decide because of very late running to turn the bus around at Mountjoy Square

Now what you'd think should happen is the displays at every Northbound stop between Donnybrook and the CC should change to show it's only going to the CC and the stops after should stop listing it altogether as it is no longer serving there - but for some reason that doesn't happen all of the time.

The destination on the RTPI system does not update so it continues to presume that the bus is going the whole route - which leads to people waiting at stops seeing a bus listed as going to Phoenix Park finding it actually only goes to the CC and then the bus totally vanishing from northbound stops between the CC and Phoenix Park when it's turned around.

I've never been quite clear on why this was - perhaps when Dublin Bus change the destination on the front of their bus and internal systems the updated destination is not passed on to the core RTPI system, or if it is, this is not processed correctly?

Due to x DB would like to advise customers the RTI displayed maybe inaccurate.

But it's pretty obvious - RTPI is a predictive system - if someone expects it to be accurate all of the time then quite frankly they have unrealistic expectations since life is not predictable.

Stephen15

MOH wrote: »

In my experience, it *is* pointless and abysmally unreliable. Maybe I'm just unlucky, because a lot of people seem to think it's fine. But I pretty much ignore it at this stage.
If I've a choice of two buses at a stop, bus A leaves me ten minutes closer than bus B, and bus B arrives first with bus A showing as being due in two minutes, I'll get on the bus that's in front of me. Because in my experience there's a chance that bus A either won't turn up at all, and it certainly won't be there in two minutes.
Or cross city buses show up on RTPI as the scheduled bus, but the one that arrives is a XXC only going to the city centre.

So we should just go back to the days of showing up at a bus stop and guessing on the timetable when the bus comes or more accurately when the bus dosen't come.

Real time info is a big improvement on DB services in the past. I remember standing at a bus stop before real time for over an hour in the rain now it will tell me at the bus stop how long to wait and if I should give up and go home or walk to a more frequent bus. I also find that real time information has improved since the early days of it. It may not be perfect but it's the best we have.

devnull

I forgot to add one point - when a bus arrives at a terminus late this does not always equal the next service that the bus operates being late - this is because of the fact that some departures will have layover time built in between completing one journey and starting the next.

There are new rosters being worked on for a number of routes, some of which have already been implemented and others will be over the next few weeks, which allow buses longer time to complete their journey which provides more of a buffer for delays which should decrease the likeliness of services being turned around early or leaving a terminus late.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

But it's pretty obvious - RTPI is a predictive system - if someone expects it to be accurate all of the time then quite frankly they have unrealistic expectations since life is not predictable.

I've an expectation of being informed not it being 100 %. If DB where to inform users more often that **** is happening the RTI will be off great. During the initial LCC launch I seen that exact kind of message.

LeinsterDub

devnull wrote: »

I forgot to add one point - when a bus arrives at a terminus late this does not always equal the next service that the bus operates being late - this is because of the fact that some departures will have layover time built in between completing one journey and starting the next.

There are new rosters being worked on for a number of routes, some of which have already been implemented and others will be over the next few weeks, which allow buses longer time to complete their journey which provides more of a buffer for delays which should decrease the likeliness of services being turned around early or leaving a terminus late.

I'm aware of that. My point was if the bus you expect to leave the terminus is running 10 minutes late and has a 5 minute layover you know the departure that bus is due to run will be at least 5 minutes late

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

So we should just go back to the days of showing up at a bus stop and guessing on the timetable when the bus comes or more accurately when the bus dosen't come.

Real time info is a big improvement on DB services in the past. I remember standing at a bus stop before real time for over an hour in the rain now it will tell me at the bus stop how long to wait and if I should give up and go home or walk to a more frequent bus. I also find that real time information has improved since the early days of it. It may not be perfect but it's the best we have.

Except it maybe because city centre buses, ghost buses etc all of which are operational issues of DB

MOH

Stephen15 wrote: »

So we should just go back to the days of showing up at a bus stop and guessing on the timetable when the bus comes or more accurately when the bus dosen't come.

Yes. Because zero information is more reliable than inaccurate information that's consistently peddled as being accurate

Real time info is a big improvement on DB services in the past. I remember standing at a bus stop before real time for over an hour in the rain now it will tell me at the bus stop how long to wait and if I should give up and go home or walk to a more frequent bus. I also find that real time information has improved since the early days of it. It may not be perfect but it's the best we have.

No, it's not an improvement. It's as much a fiction as DBs timetables have always been. e.g. standing at a stop for 20 minnutes in the rain for a bus that is persistently due in two minutes and then vanishes off the system and is replaced by the next bus due in 40 minutes.

I've reached the point where I'm sick to the teeth of being told there is no problem with RTPI, and everything is fine. It's massively broken.

Apparently it works at times, on certain routes for certain people, and because they don't have a problem they're incapable of comprehending the utter unreliability of the system for others.

Stephen15

MOH wrote: »

Yes. Because zero information is more reliable than inaccurate information that's consistently peddled as being accurate

No, it's not an improvement. It's as much a fiction as DBs timetables have always been. e.g. standing at a stop for 20 minnutes in the rain for a bus that is persistently due in two minutes and then vanishes off the system and is replaced by the next bus due in 40 minutes.

I've reached the point where I'm sick to the teeth of being told there is no problem with RTPI, and everything is fine. It's massively broken.

Apparently it works at times, on certain routes for certain people, and because they don't have a problem they're incapable of comprehending the utter unreliability of the system for others.

I agree it's not a perfect flawless system but it definitely is an improvement on the previous guessing game. The reason buses don't show up is because of brake downs, a shortage of drivers due to illness or holidays, traffic or a shortage of buses which you can blame on the government for not giving DB enough subsidy, The NTA for expecting DB to run to unrealistic timetables and councils for not putting in enough bus lanes or sorting out traffic bottlenecks.

The concept of RTPI is a good one it means you wait in the comfort of you own home instead of a cold shelter which is a good thing.

LeinsterDub

Stephen15 wrote: »

The concept of RTPI is a good one it means you wait in the comfort of you own home instead of a cold shelter which is a good thing.

Which we all agree with if only DB would inform us of operational issues so we could stay in the comfort of our own homes when a bus for whatever reason isn't going to arrive.

Stephen15

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Which we all agree with if only DB would inform us of operational issues so we could stay in the comfort of our own homes when a bus for whatever reason isn't going to arrive.

Yes I would agree with that they should notify when a bus is cancelled.

punisher5112

There will always be issues, but I wonder when new equipment is fitted to buses with the function of paying by phone, bank card etc... Will the system be better.

Contact them by email or Twitter and contact the nta also of any issues the more that do so and stop complaining to the driver the better.

The driver doesn't know why the other bus didn't show or wouldn't even know it was missing or whatever the reason.

I agree the rtpi should display issues on route or show that a bus is late or had to be cancelled etc...

nilescraneo

On twitter the response is always the stock "duty inspector has been informed" and nta never reply bar an auto generated email of acknowledgement. DB are seemingly unaccountable for such shoddy services and are allowed to increase fares year on year.

Hopefully Go Ahead will be better, in fairness the bar has been set so low by Dublin Bus that it would be hard for them to be any worse.

StreetLight

nilescraneo wrote: »

On twitter the response is always the stock "duty inspector has been informed" and nta never reply bar an auto generated email of acknowledgement. DB are seemingly unaccountable for such shoddy services and are allowed to increase fares year on year.

Hopefully Go Ahead will be better, in fairness the bar has been set so low by Dublin Bus that it would be hard for them to be any worse.

The fares on Go-Ahead will be exactly the same as on Dublin Bus. They are changed on authority from the NTA, not on whims whenever the companies feel like it.

Recent fare increases have been weighted towards those paying cash. If someone is uninformed or stupid enough to still be paying over the odds that way, then they'll have to wise up.

punisher5112

nilescraneo wrote: »

On twitter the response is always the stock "duty inspector has been informed" and nta never reply bar an auto generated email of acknowledgement. DB are seemingly unaccountable for such shoddy services and are allowed to increase fares year on year.

Hopefully Go Ahead will be better, in fairness the bar has been set so low by Dublin Bus that it would be hard for them to be any worse.

35% increase will be how they will look better as the nta can't let go ahead fail or it will actually show how much of joke quango it really is.

How many departments are needed to do the one thing.

Stephen15

It must be a pr exercise by DB and the NTA not telling passengers that a bus has been cancelled. It's like they are trying to make themselves look good by not telling us about all the cancelled buses at short notice.

Also if there is a large amount of drivers out sick which I would suspect at this time of year or during the summer when a lot of drivers lists should be made on a daily basis of which services are not operating or better plans should be made as to how to keep the services running normally.

I know it may not be ideal but I don't why DB can't do the same thing as BE and hire in private buses to plug gaps if there are issues regarding short staffing. Many private operators around Dublin operate ex DB buses which do the job even if they are not ideal.

Lastly I think a service chart should of all bus routes in Dublin and their status as operating normally, expect delays, XX:XX service cancelled, Diversion on Y road/street etc.

LeinsterDub

punisher5112 wrote: »

35% increase will be how they will look better as the nta can't let go ahead fail or it will actually show how much of joke quango it really is.

How many departments are needed to do the one thing.

What are you talking about? What increase? What departments?

dublinman1990

I have a few questions to ask re: New buses for Go-Ahead?

If the NTA decide to order new double decker buses from Wrights for Go-Ahead; what style of front will be used on them?

Will they be like the current SGs used for Dublin Bus or the current Wright front for Bus Eireann's fleet?

Is there any reasons why the NTA would continue to order new buses with the old style front in Dublin Bus the new front in Bus Eireann?

How long does the current styled front on the Dublin Bus SGs have left to be built from Wrights?

I wanted to ask these questions because I do believe that the current SGs in Dublin Bus do have a limited production life cycle from Wrights. I also wanted to get some impressions here about using the Wright double deckers with the new style front over the old one. A lot of the bus operators dealing with Wrights are now using the new style front as it has been a noticeable trend for quite a while now.

Will the NTA start using the Gemini's new front for Go-Ahead if they ordered more new buses from Wrights?

john boye

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I have a few questions to ask re: New buses for Go-Ahead?

If the NTA decide to order new double decker buses from Wrights for Go-Ahead; what style of front will be used on them?

Will they be like the current SGs used for Dublin Bus or the current Wright front for Bus Eireann's fleet?

Is there any reasons why the NTA would continue to order new buses with the old style front in Dublin Bus the new front in Bus Eireann?

How long does the current styled front on the Dublin Bus SGs have left to be built from Wrights?

I wanted to ask these questions because I do believe that the current SGs in Dublin Bus do have a limited production life cycle from Wrights. I also wanted to get some impressions here about using the Wright double deckers with the new style front over the old one. A lot of the bus operators dealing with Wrights are now using the new style front as it has been a noticeable trend for quite a while now.

Will the NTA start using the Gemini's new front for Go-Ahead if they ordered more new buses from Wrights?

Really tackling the major issues there!

devnull

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I have a few questions to ask re: New buses for Go-Ahead?

If the NTA decide to order new double decker buses from Wrights for Go-Ahead; what style of front will be used on them?

Will they be like the current SGs used for Dublin Bus or the current Wright front for Bus Eireann's fleet?

Is there any reasons why the NTA would continue to order new buses with the old style front in Dublin Bus the new front in Bus Eireann?

How long does the current styled front on the Dublin Bus SGs have left to be built from Wrights?

I wanted to ask these questions because I do believe that the current SGs in Dublin Bus do have a limited production life cycle from Wrights. I also wanted to get some impressions here about using the Wright double deckers with the new style front over the old one. A lot of the bus operators dealing with Wrights are now using the new style front as it has been a noticeable trend for quite a while now.

Will the NTA start using the Gemini's new front for Go-Ahead if they ordered more new buses from Wrights?

Considering the size of the order that Volvo/Wright get from NTA funds every year, I doubt that they will have any problems keeping the old front going - note that both the old front and the new front are the same vehicle with different styling at the front and rear.

punisher5112

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What are you talking about? What increase? What departments?

Where have you been????


Been talked about and advertised big time.

LeinsterDub

punisher5112 wrote: »

Where have you been????


Been talked about and advertised big time.

Still no idea what you're talking about

bebeman

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Still no idea what you're talking about

The routes that are in the 10% have recently got new NTA timetables.
They have very generous running time, too generous by a guess of 33%.
Now when Go Ahead take over the 10%, i have no doubt that they will make new timetables soon after, and surprise,surprise they will have 3 departures per hour rather than DB's 2.
Just like that the NTA can say , it has been a huge success, a bus every 20 minutes it was every 30 minutes.
It is just smoke and mirrors.

bebeman

Stephen15 wrote: »

I know it may not be ideal but I don't why DB can't do the same thing as BE and hire in private buses to plug gaps if there are issues regarding short staffing. Many private operators around Dublin operate ex DB buses which do the job even if they are not ideal..

Do you believe there is a load of private buses and drivers parked up daily doing nothing?
There is a shortage of drivers, that is the reality