Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Here we go

LastStop wrote: »

I know GAI have had problems keeping their driving staff but looking at their website I see them constantly advertising for supervisors and controllers, even now they are looking for an Operation Manager.

There are a few staff here from GAI, so can they tell me, do GAI not look to promote drivers to Supervisor roles ? Has the current Operation manager high tailed it or moved elsewhere in the company ? why the high turnover in these positions ?

They advertise in house. from what I know some people in ops and supervisors are going to nass depot so there trying to replace them and new positions in nass and as for promoting drivers up because of ack of drivers it's them trying to balance service it's even hardtop just move from one roster to another even if theres space as they don't want one service to suffer touch over another

Yer Da sells Avon

.G. wrote: »

I love how people come on here and speak with authority on a subject they have zero first hand experience of!

I note the recruitment part of the website no says the drivers wage is "up to €40,000". It used to say €32,000. Has there been a wage increase to stave of the exodus to Dublin Bus?

There has been no wage increase, but they have introduced a 'subsistence allowance' of €10 per day (which is roughly an extra €2,500 a year, tax-free).

I think the key words there are "up to €40,000". If you do enough overtime, especially on Sundays and public holidays, then you could easily get more than €40k (gross) per year. Otherwise it's closer to €35k.

Here we go

Stephen15 wrote: »

Thought they had most of GAIs workforce queuing up to join [/quote
Been told GAI have lost 150 drivers since opening not all have gone to DB or even other bus jobs and IV been told by a DB employee who does the assesments he's had to fail half of the GAI drivers he's had out I assume there still with GAI there's also a good few who pass driving assesment but have failed medical

Here we go

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

There has been no wage increase, but they have introduced a 'subsistence allowance' of €10 per day (which is roughly an extra €2,500 a year, tax-free).

I think the key words there are "up to €40,000". If you do enough overtime, especially on Sundays and public holidays, then you could easily get more than €40k (gross) per year. Otherwise it's closer to €35k.

I'd love to know where they got the 40k figure can't figure it out as for the 10 euro a day it comes with conditions people in splits or who have break in depot won't get it

Yer Da sells Avon

Here we go wrote: »

I'd love to know where they got the 40k figure can't figure it out as for the 10 euro a day it comes with conditions people in splits or who have break in depot won't get it

I heard somewhere that they will be getting it, but it'll just be called something else.

dashcamdanny

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I heard somewhere that they will be getting it, but it'll just be called something else.

So this gets back to what goahead said at the start.

If they cant make it work in 5 years, they are going to pull out.
Giving each drivers (a potential) extra 4k a year, with no extra money coming from farebox or NTA .

I can only assume this is going to come out of the profits which fat cats at the top of the GoAhead originally wanted to cream of the top for themselves.

Yer Da sells Avon

dashcamdanny wrote: »

So this gets back to what goahead said at the start.

If they cant make it work in 5 years, they are going to pull out.
Giving each drivers (a potential) extra 4k a year, with no extra money coming from farebox or NTA .

I can only assume this is going to come out of the profits which fat cats at the top of the GoAhead originally wanted to cream of the top for themselves.

For every driver who leaves, it costs a fair bit more than €4k to train a new one. And that's not including the huge cost of the inevitable bumps and scrapes that inexperienced drivers are more likely to have. It's taken them a while to learn that.

They underestimated the enormity of starting up, but when they get their shit together (and they will), I think they're more likely to expand than pull out.

Stephen15

dashcamdanny wrote: »

If they cant make it work in 5 years, they are going to pull out.
Giving each drivers (a potential) extra 4k a year, with no extra money coming from farebox or NTA .

I can only assume this is going to come out of the profits which fat cats at the top of the GoAhead originally wanted to cream of the top for themselves.

I thought the aim of Go-Ahead entering this contract was more so to gain a foothold into the Irish market in order to build up a competitive advantage when it comes to future lucrative contracts here in Ireland rather than make a profit from the start. That would be the advantage of having things tendered out that if it doesn't work out with GAI then another operator can bid for the contract when it expires and hopefully improve the service.

I see the NTA have renewed Transdev's contract to operate the Luas until 2025 believed to be worth somewhere around €200 million. I'm sort of surprised GAI didn't at least try to undercut Transdev's bid whether successful or not.

Yer Da Sells Avon wrote:

They underestimated the enormity of starting up, but when they get their **** together (and they will), I think they're more likely to expand than pull out.

That is true they also underestimated a number of things such as traffic conditions in the GDA as they have implemented some tight schedules on certain routes and the issues with inter working routes and time taken to get to and from Ballymount from their various different termini.

These issues are already being somewhat sorted out now that they are stabling buses for some of the Northside routes in the airport and the implementation of revised timetables.

CramCycle

I'd agree, in fact the perceived set back that alot of other routes would not go out to tender for a few years, may actually be a blessing and help them get everything in order as well as finding a more balanced pay structure and people with experience.

Listening to the comments on twitter bar the few people from Bray who seem to forget the errors and issues that were there before GAI, engagement seems to be positive with regards driver behaviour, seems they are putting a heavier weight on being seen not to do anything dangerous or stupid rather than timetable keeping which is a welcome departure from the muppetry you get from certain garages in DB.

tabbey

CramCycle wrote: »

engagement seems to be positive with regards driver behaviour, seems they are putting a heavier weight on being seen not to do anything dangerous or stupid rather than timetable keeping which is a welcome departure from the muppetry you get from certain garages in DB.

My sentiments entirely.

During the week I was on a couple of Bray local GAI routes, followed by a spin on the 155.
The GAI drivers were slow and careful, and even stopped when someone accidentally pressed the stop button.
In contrast the DB driver (who was far from the worst) failed to stop at three stops where prospective passengers put out their hands. He also went through red lights where he had plenty of time to stop.

donvito99

tabbey wrote: »

In contrast the DB driver (who was far from the worst) failed to stop at three stops where prospective passengers put out their hands. He also went through red lights where he had plenty of time to stop.

I was on an 18 recently and it shocked me that a bus could actually be driven smoothly.

What are the feeding the GAI drivers?

Stephen15

CramCycle wrote: »

I'd agree, in fact the perceived set back that alot of other routes would not go out to tender for a few years, may actually be a blessing and help them get everything in order as well as finding a more balanced pay structure and people with experience.

I get the impression that it's not the lack of drivers with expierence that's the issue but rather the lack of expierence from management and the lack of people like inspectors and controllers with expierence but not only expierence also and nearly more importantly local knowledge.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression they have brought in a lot of management and senior personal from the UK who may have expierence in the bus industry however lack local knowledge with regards to things like local traffic conditions.

Listening to the comments on twitter bar the few people from Bray who seem to forget the errors and issues that were there before GAI, engagement seems to be positive with regards driver behaviour, seems they are putting a heavier weight on being seen not to do anything dangerous or stupid rather than timetable keeping which is a welcome departure from the muppetry you get from certain garages in DB.

They've put a lot of effort into customer service from what I gather. Most of their drivers seem to be very polite and courteous towards passengers. Although I have noticed a general improvement in the standards of customer service from DB drivers in recent years.

LastStop

donvito99 wrote: »

I was on an 18 recently and it shocked me that a bus could actually be driven smoothly.

What are the feeding the GAI drivers?

Did they extend the running time with the new timetable on the 18's? Also there are newer buses on that route now, it was being serviced by rickety AX with DB. Oh, of course i'm sure there were drivers with DB doing their best Lewis Hamilton impression.

donvito99

LastStop wrote: »

Did they extend the running time with the new timetable on the 18's?

It's the same service but you don't have to fall down the stairs anymore.

Also there are newer buses on that route now, it was being serviced by rickety AX with DB.

There's nothing rickety about the AX, fine on all routes.

Oh, of course i'm sure there were drivers with DB doing their best Lewis Hamilton impression.

But Lewis Hamilton is a good driver?

Stephen15

donvito99 wrote: »

What are the feeding the GAI drivers?

A mixture of exact change, ticket roll, FTP passes and Leap Cards. Some drivers with DB used to be fussy about eating FTP passes and would only eat them after 9.30 in the morning however they stopped this a while ago and will eat them now at any time.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

LastStop wrote: »

Did they extend the running time with the new timetable on the 18's? Also there are newer buses on that route now, it was being serviced by rickety AX with DB. Oh, of course i'm sure there were drivers with DB doing their best Lewis Hamilton impression.

Sure even half of the Dublin bus AXs are sold already. So it was going to be new buses on it anyway !

Running time on it was fine back when I drove it even !

I much prefer to be driven by a driver who can drive her on comfortable while relaxed than be driven around by drivers that are slow and nervous on the road. The latter is more inclined to be involved in an accident.

punisher5112

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Sure even half of the Dublin bus AXs are sold already. So it was going to be new buses on it anyway !

Running time on it was fine back when I drove it even !

I much prefer to be driven by a driver who can drive her on comfortable while relaxed than be driven around by drivers that are slow and nervous on the road. The latter is more inclined to be involved in an accident.

I ain't slow but no Collin McRae either...

I drive as I was taught where corners are slow and straights are phast.....

One thing I'm not looking forward to is having to wait at stops... Sure today was given out to how long is this going to take only changing over... I get out have bag ready other driver in no delay but still not quite quick enough...

john boye

Stephen15 wrote: »

A mixture of exact change, ticket roll, FTP passes and Leap Cards. Some drivers with DB used to be fussy about eating FTP passes and would only eat them after 9.30 in the morning however they stopped this a while ago and will eat them now at any time.

They'll what? That can't be good for their digestive system.

Dravokivich

donvito99 wrote: »

But Lewis Hamilton is a good driver?

Nope, only thing his boss cares about is how fast he is. He's not the best driver on the grid by a stretch if you were to consider him good at it.

LastStop

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

And to cap it all off, my weekly pay is going up by €50 from next week.

So that's a nice little bump, better to get something than get nothing.

So the drivers earn up to 40k, the controllers earn 42k, depot supervisors earn less than control staff. Are management on crap wages or looking after themselves?

I've had a look at Glassdoor and there isn't much information on that.

The above details on supervisors and controllers were given to a mate who applied when they opened. He politely declined the offer.

ITV2

I have noticed a general improvement in the standards of customers in recent years. ;-)

dashcamdanny

ITV2 wrote: »

I have noticed a general improvement in the standards of customers in recent years. ;-)

Probably due to new drivers coming in .. Many picked fresh from a customer service background to join the bus driving world. .

Here we go

LastStop wrote: »

So that's a nice little bump, better to get something than get nothing.

So the drivers earn up to 40k, the controllers earn 42k, depot supervisors earn less than control staff. Are management on crap wages or looking after themselves?

I've had a look at Glassdoor and there isn't much information on that.

The above details on supervisors and controllers were given to a mate who applied when they opened. He politely declined the offer.

I'd love to know how they came up with 40k there's guys here breaking the driving hours regularly and still wouldn't be getting that even with subsistence

Stephen15

Here we go wrote: »

I'd love to know how they came up with 40k there's guys here breaking the driving hours regularly and still wouldn't be getting that even with subsistence

Before or after tax as I'd imagine the 40k figure would be before tax?

CramCycle

Stephen15 wrote: »

Before or after tax as I'd imagine the 40k figure would be before tax?

Has to be before tax, after tax would be exceptional pay. IIRC correctly they were at 32k gross when GAI started, with the 4k tax free sustenance and overtime, that would easily be 40k gross.

Here we go

CramCycle wrote: »

Has to be before tax, after tax would be exceptional pay. IIRC correctly they were at 32k gross when GAI started, with the 4k tax free sustenance and overtime, that would easily be 40k gross.

It's not 4k subsistence it's 10€ if you don't have break at depot so some will get none as all there breaks are at depot (splits) and some have some breaks at depot and others away from (175,75) and some all breaks from depot (184) and it's not part of holiday pay so it should be 2400 if you get the max payment and take your entitled holidays

CramCycle

Here we go wrote: »

It's not 4k subsistence it's 10€ if you don't have break at depot so some will get none as all there breaks are at depot (splits) and some have some breaks at depot and others away from (175,75) and some all breaks from depot (184) and it's not part of holiday pay so it should be 2400 if you get the max payment and take your entitled holidays

I was taking the number from a post I seen, I don't know the ins and outs. €10 per day, presumably after tax, at an average working days per year of 262 (and most of us are more), thats €2620, at a pay package in the 30k bracket, it is not going to be far off 4k gross, certainly not the 4k net I posted so apologies, although I still don't know if either of our numbers are even close to being correct. Not sure what you mean about the holiday pay bit. I know the state allowed one is €14 per day which would be €3668 tax free per annum for a typical worker if they ignored the headache of working out who was and wasn't near the depot at each and every break they took.

AlekSmart

CramCycle wrote: »

I was taking the number from a post I seen, I don't know the ins and outs. €10 per day, presumably after tax, at an average working days per year of 262 (and most of us are more), thats €2620, at a pay package in the 30k bracket, it is not going to be far off 4k gross, certainly not the 4k net I posted so apologies, although I still don't know if either of our numbers are even close to being correct. Not sure what you mean about the holiday pay bit. I know the state allowed one is €14 per day which would be €3668 tax free per annum for a typical worker if they ignored the headache of working out who was and wasn't near the depot at each and every break they took.

It should be noted that all such Meal Allowances are at the grace of Revenue in relation to taxation.
In the past,such allowances were regularly used to give a wee boost to wages,with the "Tax-Free" element being the main focus.
Today,there is a far higher monitoring of this concession.

As has already been discussed here,not every duty will qualify for the allowance,so as individual drivers progress around a given rota,there may well be weeks when no such allowance would be paid,whilst other weeks might see several days duties qualifying.

There is considerable danger in an employee coming to regard subsistance alowances as an integral part of basic pay.

In addition,such payments do not count as basic pay,which can be important for calculating Pension contributions,Holiday Pay entitlements and assorted other qualifiers,usually based upon basic pay rates.

LastStop

AlekSmart wrote: »

In addition,such payments do not count as basic pay,which can be important for calculating Pension contributions,Holiday Pay entitlements and assorted other qualifiers,usually based upon basic pay rates.

Yes, good luck applying for a mortgage and then banging your head off a table as you explain that your Basic wage is X but you've got shift allowances of Y and meal Sustenance of Z and overtime of ??? per year and then they tell you you can Borrow 150k. Very frustrating.

I was listening to a couple explain how the husband had to quit a job he loved where his salary totalled 65k per year when all added up, to take a job he didn't want because the basic was 50k just for the banks.

GM228

AlekSmart wrote: »

(AFAIAA The GAI operation does not currently have any by-laws,but is operating to a set of draft by-laws drawn up by the NTA,which have not yet been implemented.)

GAI (and other PSO operators - with the exception of CIE companies and LUAS who are already covered) finally have applicable bye-laws, the National Transport Authority (Public Passenger Transport Services) Bye-Laws 2019 have come into force today.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/pdf/2019/en.si.2019.0273.pdf

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

GAI (and other PSO operators - with the exception of CIE companies and LUAS who are already covered) finally have applicable bye-laws, the National Transport Authority (Public Passenger Transport Services) Bye-Laws 2019 have come into force today.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/pdf/2019/en.si.2019.0273.pdf

Prohibited Items
38. (1) A person shall not take, or cause to be taken, on to any vehicle if
requested not to do so by a responsible person, any bird, animal, article or thing
which by reason of its nature is in the opinion of the responsible person likely
to cause annoyance or damage to any passenger or damage to any property.

But no mention of an exemption for passengers travelling with guide dogs. This part is badly worded "any animal" suggests that could include a guide dog. So if that's the case a responsible person could refuse access to a bus to a person with a guide dog :eek: if deemed an annoyance.

CramCycle

Stephen15 wrote: »

But no mention of an exemption for passengers travelling with guide dogs. This part is badly worded "any animal" suggests that could include a guide dog. So if that's the case a responsible person could refuse access to a bus to a person with a guide dog :eek: if deemed an annoyance.

By reason of its nature should cover that pretty easily. Good luck to anyone who even tries to test it out.

Qrt

GM228 wrote: »

GAI (and other PSO operators - with the exception of CIE companies and LUAS who are already covered) finally have applicable bye-laws, the National Transport Authority (Public Passenger Transport Services) Bye-Laws 2019 have come into force today.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/pdf/2019/en.si.2019.0273.pdf

Had a look through these the other day, fairly sure 70% of them have already been breached on the 17a by now.

dashcamdanny

Each person shall queue at a bus stop in an orderly manner,
shall on arrival at the bus stop take up the position at the rear of the appropriate
queue and shall move forward in an orderly and regular manner


LOL

Stephen15

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Each person shall queue at a bus stop in an orderly manner,
shall on arrival at the bus stop take up the position at the rear of the appropriate
queue and shall move forward in an orderly and regular manner

Fairly much the same thing in the BAC byelaws

DB Byelaws wrote:

10. (1) Each passenger shall queue at a bus stop in an orderly manner.

tabbey

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Each person shall queue at a bus stop in an orderly manner,
shall on arrival at the bus stop take up the position at the rear of the appropriate
queue and shall move forward in an orderly and regular manner


LOL

This was the norm when I grew up in the 1960s, at least in city centre termini, such as College Street or Burgh Quay.

A Bus inspector on duty there would send to the back of the queue, anyone who did not follow the rules.

punisher5112

tabbey wrote: »

This was the norm when I grew up in the 1960s, at least in city centre termini, such as College Street or Burgh Quay.

A Bus inspector on duty there would send to the back of the queue, anyone who did not follow the rules.

When the 123 had single decks Davey use to be on O'Connell st and had everyone lined up....

You are supposed to queue behind the stop looking forwards towards the bus that will be pulling in...

john boye

I remember there used to be a semblance of a proper queue at most stops in town. Now various factors like traffic, private traffic/delivery vehicles blocking stops and even other buses at overcrowded stops mean it's basically just a free for all and probably contributes quite a bit to the long dwell times.

tabbey

john boye wrote: »

I remember there used to be a semblance of a proper queue at most stops in town. Now various factors like traffic, private traffic/delivery vehicles blocking stops and even other buses at overcrowded stops mean it's basically just a free for all and probably contributes quite a bit to the long dwell times.

It is also because so many routes use the same stops that people cannot form one queue.

donvito99

The stop at Stephen's Green east typically has a very orderly queue. By contrast, it is difficult to queue at Dawson St as there is almost no space on the footpath for people to wait/walk.

john boye

tabbey wrote: »

It is also because so many routes use the same stops that people cannot form one queue.

Yes that's what I meant by overcrowded stops. Probably could have been clearer.

CramCycle

I remember the bus drivers refusing entry onto the bus for anyone who wasn't in the queue, they either went to the back or were not allowed on. It was also a source of glee when they caught queue jumpers.

XPS_Zero

Being devils advocate, what difference does a que v a scrum make? Everyones going to get on the bus (outside rush hour) anyway?

Patrick2010

At the bus stop nearest the Mercantile bar in Dame street half the people queue at the bus stop, the rest either stand behind the real time display pole or stand against the wall. So when the bus does arrive people are trying to get on from different angles.

Muller1991

Patrick2010 wrote: »

At the bus stop nearest the Mercantile bar in Dame street half the people queue at the bus stop, the rest either stand behind the real time display pole or stand against the wall. So when the bus does arrive people are trying to get on from different angles.

Its the exact same outside the stops at Abercrombie and Fitch and then outside the old Ulster bank on College Green. If your ever waiting in a 77A between 5 and half 6 in the evening its a scrum to try and get on board.

tabbey

Patrick2010 wrote: »

At the bus stop nearest the Mercantile bar in Dame street half the people queue at the bus stop, the rest either stand behind the real time display pole or stand against the wall. So when the bus does arrive people are trying to get on from different angles.

It is also difficult now because we need two lines boarding a bus, most people on the right using the Leap card reader for longer journeys, the one on the left for shorter (lower fare) journeys and cash payers.

Muller1991

Spotted the Single decker Learning Bus Go Ahead have around a few Tallaght Estates today Is there a new route ?

Stephen15

Muller1991 wrote: »

Spotted the Single decker Learning Bus Go Ahead have around a few Tallaght Estates today Is there a new route ?

I highly doubt they seem to train in many different places around the city. Tallaght probably handy for them due to it's proximity to Ballymount.

Here we go

devnull wrote: »

GoAhead do not set the fares and they do not keep money from the fares, they are paid a set fee from the NTA and this is the model that Dublin Bus will be moving to in the near future as well.

From my under standing GAI are paid per kilometer driven with penalty’s for no service or being late or early With in 5 mins this means controllers are more likly to pull you if early and ask you to pull over but also they won’t pull a service even if you driving 2,3 busses in line in both directions as a late bus makes more from them then a cancelled bus also more likly to ask you to go out on shorter breaks if started break late. On existing routes no they do not keep fave box but two of the new ashbourne routes will have a new way fare system which accepts debit card like there us system GAI are to keep fares form those busses at least I’m told this

Here we go

Stephen15 wrote: »

I highly doubt they seem to train in many different places around the city. Tallaght probably handy for them due to it's proximity to Ballymount.

First time drivers are brought to tallaght they do loops around city west and when instructor feels they have a feel of how to drive they bring them a little further and so on