Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2017/2018

BorneTobyWilde

Was it as 1-0 that Salah was tripped on line of box by City player already on a yellow. Salah rides it and loses ball in process, WTF, go down and it's a pen and a second yellow for Oti. Evens game up.

corwill

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

It can come down to a question of intent or result I think. Mane's challenge had no malicious intent behind it, he was going for the ball and Ederson dove in just as recklessly as Mane, only Ederson's attempt put himself in danger more than the opposition player. Compare this to something like a player diving in for a slide tackle, legs high, two-footed, with no attempt to play the ball, just going to injure the player, and missing. What's worse? The one with malicious intent or the one with a malicious result?

I just think it's harsh that a player can be banned for 3 games for such a challenge with no bad intent.

https://track5.mixtape.moe/hqrdgk.mp4

Look at the way Bellerin goes in here against Salah, high foot near Salah's head, Salah wins the header. He doesn't touch him, but we've been shown time and again that the contact doesn't matter when it comes to things like two footed challenges, and surely this falls under the same "reckless challenge" idea, so why is Bellerin not sent off?

Even with as much sympathy as I have for Mane here, and even being as sure as I am that he was trying to play the ball and meant no harm, intent has nothing to do with it under the rules. The test is one of recklessness. High foot, off the ground, at speed, with no control, ticks all the boxes. That it is inconsistently refereed from incident to incident and game to game will do Mane no good if he tries an appeal.

ceegee

Turtyturd wrote: »

Would agree with that. Only got the replay from behind the keeper but it looks like rather than running directly into the path of the ball and jumping to head it away he bottles it and slows down to let the ball come to him and hunches his body, tucking his head.

He hunched a few inches. Given that's he's 5 inches taller than Mane it still means Mane came in late with his boot at head height, both feet off the ground, studs up and at pace. How anyone can think that is in anyway controlled or not reckless is beyond me.

One_Of_Shanks

corwill wrote: »

Even with as much sympathy as I have for Mane here, and even being as sure as I am that he was trying to play the ball and meant no harm, intent has nothing to do with it under the rules. The test is one of recklessness. High foot, off the ground, at speed, with no control, ticks all the boxes. That it is inconsistently refereed from incident to incident and game to game will do Mane no good if he tries an appeal.

Spot on. The rules are the rules and the ref is there to apply them.

Ideally there really SHOULD be a rule that if it's clearly unintentional and accidental that you leave it at yellow, but that's not in the rules and the Ref's job is to apply the rules so he had to go.

It's crappy luck and a bit of a pisser but it was the right decision, as far as the ref is concerned.

Turtyturd

Not related to the sending off but something that annoyed me. Surely he should have implemented the rules and booked Sane for cutting down Moreno, like he did with Can on Aguero.

Gbear

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

It can come down to a question of intent or result I think. Mane's challenge had no malicious intent behind it, he was going for the ball and Ederson dove in just as recklessly as Mane, only Ederson's attempt put himself in danger more than the opposition player. Compare this to something like a player diving in for a slide tackle, legs high, two-footed, with no attempt to play the ball, just going to injure the player, and missing. What's worse? The one with malicious intent or the one with a malicious result?

I just think it's harsh that a player can be banned for 3 games for such a challenge with no bad intent.

https://track5.mixtape.moe/hqrdgk.mp4

Look at the way Bellerin goes in here against Salah, high foot near Salah's head, Salah wins the header. He doesn't touch him, but we've been shown time and again that the contact doesn't matter when it comes to things like two footed challenges, and surely this falls under the same "reckless challenge" idea, so why is Bellerin not sent off?

Diving for a header at head height isn't reckless. It's just part of football.
He wasn't putting himself in danger but going for a ball he was perfectly entitled to.

Kicking the ball at head height is not a legitimate form of play unless the ref is satisfied nobody is in danger.

The ball Mané went for was tempting and you can see why he did it, but it was not at all justified. He could've gone for it, but not diving forward into someone and certainly not going in foot first.
He could've seriously injured him and it wouldn't have been some kind of freak accident but the obvious result of kicking someone in the face.

He went in foot first, his foot was head height, he didn't get the ball first, he did get the man and he was doing all that with enough pace to seriously injure someone.

Gbear

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Ideally there really SHOULD be a rule that if it's clearly unintentional and accidental that you leave it at yellow, but that's not in the rules and the Ref's job is to apply the rules so he had to go.

No it absolutely shouldn't.

You're not entitled to charge around the pitch like a lunatic and act in a way that endangers other players.

Most red card tackles are not intentional. They're punished as such because they're reckless and you'd have to be utterly mental not to think what Mane did was reckless given that it had the pradictable result of kicking a person in the face and forcing him to go off injured.

Harry Palmr

Not all bad today Everton were thrashed with 11 on the pitch at home - trouble is Spurs twas what beat them

One_Of_Shanks

Gbear wrote: »

you'd have to be utterly mental not to think what Mane did was reckless given that it had the pradictable result of kicking a person in the face and forcing him to go off injured.

I never said it wasn't dangerous, I said it was a red card and the ref called it right.
Others have said it wasn't a red card at all, I said it was.

It was red, but an accident though and he wasn't charging around like a nutter, it's just unfortunate and **** happens.

Theres a word of a difference between deliberately trying to hurt someone and accidentally hurting someone.
Mane's was accidental. Nonetheless, a red under the rules.

Harry Palmr

If the rules didn't apply to Mane today it would be open season on anyone with a head.

Gbear

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

I never said it wasn't dangerous, I said it was a red card and the ref called it right.
Others have said it wasn't a red card at all so I'm baffled why you're having a go at me.

It was red, but an accident though and he wasn't charging around like a nutter, it's just unfortunate and **** happens.

Theres a word of a difference between deliberately trying to hurt someone and accidentally hurting someone.
Mane's was accidental. Nonetheless, a red under the rules.

Ideally there really SHOULD be a rule that if it's clearly unintentional and accidental that you leave it at yellow

I'm picking you up on this point because you're trying to make the frankly insane argument that what Mané did shouldn't be a red card.
MOST straight red cards are for accidental fouls and most of the rest are for petty stuff like spitting, slapping or otherwise striking the face, petty little kicks born of frustration and that kind of unsportsmanlike behaviour.

If the only thing that merited a red was a Keane vs Haaland style intentional two footed lunge or Ben Thatcher's elbow to the face on Pedro Mendes, then there would only be about 1 straight red every 2 or 3 years.

There's a huge difference between whether or not it was intentional, but if it was intentional we wouldn't be having a debate about whether it should've been a red but rather whether or not we want a psychopath playing for our team and whether or not he should go to prison in addition to getting a lifetime ban from the game.

Whether or not it was or should be a red isn't debatable however, regardless of intent.

ThunbergsAreGo

A day where a few things went against us, some controllable in wrong choices by players some uncontrollable, clear foul on Wij in lead up to first goal.

Important to bounce back now

tayto lover

Turtyturd wrote: »

Would agree with that. Only got the replay from behind the keeper but it looks like rather than running directly into the path of the ball and jumping to head it away he bottles it and slows down to let the ball come to him and hunches his body, tucking his head.

Augme

Ardent wrote: »

Well that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I thought it was a yellow at most.

That great and all, but the rules don't.

shamrock55

The mane sending off isn't the problem,its the shambles that followed regardles if we were down to 10 men,i hope the players and management are as embarrassed by that result as I am

Turtyturd

The shambles where we clearly called it quits at half time to focus on Wednesday when we took Salah off?

Osmosis Jones

shamrock55 wrote: »

The mane sending off isn't the problem,its the shambles that followed regardles if we were down to 10 men,i hope the players and management are as embarrassed by that result as I am

I'd rather they move on than wallow in embarrassment, that's for us fans to do.

ERG89

Don't even want to watch MOTD tonight after checking our result. 10 men or not that is a shocking result so the performance must be as bad.
Only really missing Clyne from our first choice defensive options so to concede 5 is scandalous. Deserve all the criticism we get for it & we know we can't live off last season's results against the top 6 now

Turtyturd

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I'd rather they move on than wallow in embarrassment, that's for us fans to do.

If we bounce back next week with a win he'll be complaining we didn't bounce back enough.

Hitchens

....so he didn't mane it then?

One_Of_Shanks

Gbear wrote: »

I'm picking you up on this point because you're trying to make the frankly insane argument that what Mané did shouldn't be a red card.

Other people in the thread said it wasn't a red card at all. I said it was.

The reason its a red is because that's what it states in the rules. It was dangerous and the ref called it spot on.

My other point is that if someone accidentally hurts someone then it's completely irrelevant under the current rules so the ref's hands are tied and no discretion can be applied.

After the game Guardiola and Klopp both said they didn't feel it was a red. Posters on here said the same.
And the reason they said that was because they knew it was an accident and completely unintentional.

So basically what I'm saying is that if someone completely accidentally hurts someone then it shouldn't necessarily be an automatic red card.
On todays situation, the ref still probably would have sent him off anyway tbh.

You can disagree with me here all you want, it's only my opinion fella. They won't be changing the rules anytime soon so you can relax.

shamrock55

Turtyturd wrote: »

If we bounce back next week with a win he'll be complaining we didn't bounce back enough.

ah feck off would ya

Harry Palmr

Presumably Ox-Cham will get his wish to play as an inside left attacker for the next three PL games. Not the worst outcome if he grabs the chance

Kerrigooney

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Presumably Ox-Cham will get his wish to play as an inside left attacker for the next three PL games. Not the worst outcome if he grabs the chance

He won't because he's rubbish. I'm still scratching my head at that signing.

Osmosis Jones

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Presumably Ox-Cham will get his wish to play as an inside left attacker for the next three PL games. Not the worst outcome if he grabs the chance

Reddit lads say Mane might only be out for 1 game based on the new rule. Apparently straight reds are a minimum of one game and generally only put up to 3 if the incident is considered violent.

Osmosis Jones

Kerrigooney wrote: »

He won't because he's rubbish. I'm still scratching my head at that signing.

Bit harsh, believe it or not before we bought him and the Arsenal boys changed their minds he was being widely praised as a bright light in their season last year.

He's decent, he's got all the physicality to be a good player and hopefully now with Klopp he can achieve that. Based on all the young talent to come out of Arsenal in recent years it's hard to blame him for not improving much under Wenger.

martingriff

So just watched the red on youtube.

Did Mane look to injure the keeper? NO
Did he do it on purpose? NO
Was his foot high? YES very
Did he deserve the red card? YES

I know there are people who will say he was watching the ball and did not mean it and your correct HOWEVER you should have some awarance of your area you are going to. He did not mean it and did not want to mean to injure him but the percentage of tackles that are meant and to injure are tiny. If we only carded people for those then there be little red or yellow cards.

Gbear

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

So basically what I'm saying is that if someone completely accidentally hurts someone then it shouldn't necessarily be an automatic red card.

It isn't and we see that from time to time.

You can have situations where players both legally go up for a ball and they might get in a tangle in the air and one falls and lands on their head or twists their knee or whatever.
Someone was injured but nobody did anything wrong.

Or sometimes you see tackles where there a legitimate attempt to play the ball but maybe the player getting tackled has their foot get tangled underneath them and they do their cruciate or something. In fact that's what got Mane injured at the end of last season IIRC.

Mane wasn't sent off because he accidentally hurt someone, but because he was reckless.

It wasn't like Ederson slipped and went head first into Mané's foot at ankle height. Mane chose to thrust his leg out, studs up while running at pace without checking to see if it was safe to do so.
Maybe he couldn't see the keeper or maybe he could in his peripheral vision and misjudged the distance, but it's Mané's job to be aware of his surroundings and those around him and he wasn't and seriously put another player at risk in doing so.

That's why it's a red and that's why it should be a red.

Pyjamarama

Its important not to lose sight of the fact that up to the sending off we were pretty much 50/50 with City. Sure they were winning 1-0 but we looked very likely to score.

Salah will go on a run where he knocks in a few. He's still settling in. I think its crazy how good he's been so quickly. Its exceptionally rare for that to be the case (see Mikey Ryan and Pogba at United).

martingriff

Turtyturd wrote: »

If we bounce back next week with a win he'll be complaining we didn't bounce back enough.

We have Seville first

shamrock55

I'd like to know how many people on here think that with the group of players we currently have, we will win any silverware this season.

Osmosis Jones

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Its important not to lose sight of the fact that up to the sending off we were pretty much 50/50 with City. Sure they were winning 1-0 but we looked very likely to score.

Salah will go on a run where he knocks in a few. He's still settling in. I think its crazy how good he's been so quickly. Its exceptionally rare for that to be the case (see Mikey Ryan and Pogba at United).

He'd probably have another 3 goals already if he just opened up a little more when cutting in from the left, we've only seen the start of him.

martingriff

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Its important not to lose sight of the fact that up to the sending off we were pretty much 50/50 with City. Sure they were winning 1-0 but we looked very likely to score.

Salah will go on a run where he knocks in a few. He's still settling in. I think its crazy how good he's been so quickly. Its exceptionally rare for that to be the case (see Mikey Ryan and Pogba at United).

I agree here it was 1 game sure it a right loss but we have to dust off now and get back to winning

Osmosis Jones

shamrock55 wrote: »

I'd like to know how many people on here think that with the group of players we currently have, we will win any silverware this season.

We could win a domestic cup, probably won't win the league or CL. I think we will have a successful season.

martingriff

shamrock55 wrote: »

I'd like to know how many people on here think that with the group of players we currently have, we will win any silverware this season.

Say we will get 1 of the 2 domestic cups maybe both

One_Of_Shanks

Gbear wrote: »

It isn't and we see that from time to time.

You can have situations where players both legally go up for a ball and they might get in a tangle in the air and one falls and lands on their head or twists their knee or whatever.
Someone was injured but nobody did anything wrong.

Or sometimes you see tackles where there a legitimate attempt to play the ball but maybe the player getting tackled has their foot get tangled underneath them and they do their cruciate or something. In fact that's what got Mane injured at the end of last season IIRC.

Mane wasn't sent off because he accidentally hurt someone, but because he was reckless.

It wasn't like Ederson slipped and went head first into Mané's foot at ankle height. Mane chose to thrust his leg out, studs up while running at pace without checking to see if it was safe to do so.
Maybe he couldn't see the keeper or maybe he could in his peripheral vision and misjudged the distance, but it's Mané's job to be aware of his surroundings and those around him and he wasn't and seriously put another player at risk in doing so.

That's why it's a red and that's why it should be a red.

Mate, you're like a dog with a bone here. I said about 5 times that I thought the ref called it correctly and the red card was warranted. That's six times now.

Even if the ref got a bit of power of discretion for accidentally dangerous fouls like I suggested then I'd say Mane still would have got his marching orders anyhow.

It was really only a bit of thinking out loud by me about accidental fouls in general, it's not as though the English FA are going to re-vamp the rules because of a boards.ie comment.

I'll leave it there, but I never once said Mane should not have been sent off. Quite the opposite.

Harry Palmr

Salah could score 50 goals a season in all comps if he could be coached to shoot with more efficiency - a bit more accuracy and composure and he'd already have about 8

Gbear

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

He'd probably have another 3 goals already if he just opened up a little more when cutting in from the left, we've only seen the start of him.

His finishing and final ball are bad, but peculiarly so.
You could see his frustration.

He seems to measure it up and everything but then it's just tame and straight at the keeper. Like the one where he got in behind and was trying to play it across the keeper to Firmino who was making the near post run in the first 10 minutes of the game looked like a pass back.

It was unusually terrible for a player who otherwise looked really really sharp.

Hopefully with confidence and practice he can get a bit better.

He wouldn't have to improve that much to be absolutely pissing it at the moment. If he was getting 1 in 3 of his **** ups in the net he'd be on about 7 goals already.

Turtyturd

Is it definitely 3 matches?

Some debate on Reddit about it possibly being 1?

Osmosis Jones

Gbear wrote: »

His finishing and final ball are bad, but peculiarly so.
You could see his frustration.

He seems to measure it up and everything but then it's just tame and straight at the keeper. Like the one where he got in behind and was trying to play it across the keeper to Firmino who was making the near post run in the first 10 minutes of the game looked like a pass back.

It was unusually terrible for a player who otherwise looked really really sharp.

Hopefully with confidence and practice he can get a bit better.

He wouldn't have to improve that much to be absolutely pissing it at the moment. If he was getting 1 in 3 of his **** ups in the net he'd be on about 7 goals already.

Yeah he's got a brain and he's clearly got pace, he might even be faster than Mane. Even with some poor finishing in the Arsenal game he showed that at times he does have the final ball, good finish for his goal and a great cross for Sturridge's.

One_Of_Shanks

Turtyturd wrote: »

Is it definitely 3 matches?

Some debate on Reddit about it possibly being 1?

Yeah one unless they consider it violent. 3 if its violent.

It's grand though. Under the new rules I introduced tonight he'll be off scot free

Osmosis Jones

Turtyturd wrote: »

Is it definitely 3 matches?

Some debate on Reddit about it possibly being 1?

Apparently automatic 3 game bans are now only if the foul is considered violent conduct, not just dangerous play.

Turtyturd

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Yeah one unless they consider it violent. 3 if its violent.

It's grand though. Under the new rules I introduced tonight he'll be off scot free

I'd go as far as card the keeper for being reckless and putting himself in that position.

One_Of_Shanks

Turtyturd wrote: »

I'd go as far as card the keeper for being reckless and putting himself in that position.

Haha, yeah if it's deemed "dangerous" it's red. So sticking yer noggin on another lads foot is fairly dangerous

He should get a ban :pac:

Mane could easily have lost a toe

One_Of_Shanks

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Salah will go on a run where he knocks in a few. He's still settling in. I think its crazy how good he's been so quickly. Its exceptionally rare for that to be the case (see Mikey Ryan and Pogba at United).

Yeah Salah has looked electric so far. Hit the ground running big willy style.
I wasn't so sure about him as a signing to be honest but shows what I know.

Only tiny criticism would be some good chances he missed but then again his offside goal against Arsenal when he flicked it in and left Cech on his arse was sublime.

He's obviously a very talented player, same goes for our attack overall.

Our defending makes me want to cry at times though. People can say its about the system we play but jesus would Klavan and Moreno make the Bournemouth or Stoke City starting eleven? Our back 4 today even on paper looked shocking before a ball was kicked.

Moreno was pretty good today but I wouldn't trust him at all at LB, and we have Robertson and Milner....
Van Dijk in Jan would be a huge signing if we can manage it.

y0ssar1an22

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

We could win a domestic cup, probably won't win the league or CL. I think we will have a successful season.

whats your definition of a successful season? and if not, would you be advocating klopp to get the chop?

Osmosis Jones

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

whats your definition of a successful season? and if not, would you be advocating klopp to get the chop?

I think any two of these would be considered a success, listed in order of preference for myself.

Top 4 - We need to cement our position as a Champions League regular, two seasons in the top 4 in a row helps do that. It's like when a team gets promoted, the next season is all about just staying there, then you kick on.

League/FA Cup - We need silverware, it's been what, 5 years since our last trophy?

Champions League quarter finals - I would have said just getting out of the group will be good but with the group we've drawn we really should progress easily enough. Obviously I wouldn't begrudge the team too much if we don't make it to the quarters because we've been knocked out by Real Madrid or someone.

I won't be calling for Klopp's head if we don't achieve these goals, right now I think he's the perfect man for Liverpool and I have enough faith that I'll think the same in 10 months time. Unless I feel he's lost the players or lost touch with what it means to be a Liverpool manager, which I do't think will happen, then he's all good in my book.

One_Of_Shanks

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

whats your definition of a successful season? and if not, would you be advocating klopp to get the chop?

Nobody in their right mind would want rid of Klopp.

Even if its a ****e season. He'll get us there in the end.

Top four would be great. Anything else is a bonus. Get VVD and Keita and players like Trent will be stronger next season. And there's wee Woodburn to come into the fold properly soon too.
Either way Klopp is the man.

murpho999

shamrock55 wrote: »

I'd like to know how many people on here think that with the group of players we currently have, we will win any silverware this season.

We had a worse first eleven and squad in 2005 and won the Champion’s League.

Anything is possible in a cup competition.

As for the league, no need to panic over one result. Thrashings can happen against top teams. Biggest issue is having choices of Klavan or Lovren as centre back and Moreno as left back which makes the recent transfer window a failure imho.

shamrock55

murpho999 wrote: »

We had a worse first eleven and squad in 2005 and won the Champion’s League.

Anything is possible in a cup competition.

As for the league, no need to panic over one result. Thrashings can happen against top teams. Biggest issue is having choices of Klavan or Lovren as centre back and Moreno as left back which makes the recent transfer window a failure imho.

very true about 2005, but at least we had sami, carra and finann in defence, I myself don't think it's possible to win anything with a bad defence,im a little surprised at lads feeling confident enough of winning a cup or 2 this season,i feel it's wishful thinking myself,the system we play doesn't help defenders either which just makes a bad defence worse