Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2017/2018

Harry Palmr

Grayditch wrote: »

Yeah, so we need better defensive coaching...

like no one ever said before!

Klopp's failings in order of severity for me

Defence coaching
Lack of game management pragmatism
Ill judged "favouritism"
Timing of Substitutes

Grayditch

Harry Palmr wrote: »

like no one ever said before!

A few people think we don't.

yourdeadwright

J Mysterio wrote: »

emmetkenny wrote: »

Karius did nothing wrong at all last night. He came and cleared a few high balls well.

He couldn't do anything about either goal. Both were mistakes in front of him and the second was a nice finish.

First goal was Lovrens fault but he could have been nippy off his line to dive on it.

Second goal, he was dreadful. Again, defensive mistakes, but he didnt make himself big and basically sprinted out and missed the challenge.

In no world is Karius at fault for either goal get a grip ,he couldn't;t have done anything when Lovern miss it like everyone else in the stadium he expected Lovern to clear it,
The second goal he came out and closed him down but it was a great finish not his fault at all, Midfield where at fault for the second

Agent Coulson

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't see the problem with Mignolet to be fair, he has improved and has been one of the better keepers in the league for 10 months, I think people are judging him on previous season's
Second goal last night is the midfields fault totally switched off ,I believe it was Can who just didn't bother getting into position ( he was struggling with his hip/leg after 40 minutes) but Henderson should have seen the danger and clipped Luis Mureil and conceded the free,

Loads gave out about Lucas doing that but he was a master at that stopping the play by giving the foul away instead of letting the defence get carved open.

The same with City's last 3 goals at the week they could have been stopped with a cheap foul.

yourdeadwright

Nerdlingr wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't see the problem with Mignolet to be fair, he has improved and has been one of the better keepers in the league for 10 months, I think people are judging him on previous season's
Second goal last night is the midfields fault totally switched off ,I believe it was Can who just didn't bother getting into position ( he was struggling with his hip/leg after 40 minutes) but Henderson should have seen the danger and clipped Luis Mureil and conceded the free,

easy to say that after the fact. if that was the case he'd be giving away soft frees every game and would probably play only half of them due to suspension.

If he wants to be a 6 he should no when is the right time to make these fouls, and that was the time,
Matic, Casimero, and the likes would all have tripped him in the same situation , infact I think if Can (I know his fault it happened)  had of been there he would have done it, iv seen him do it a few times already ,

Morzadec

Knex. wrote: »

This is Sevilla's 2nd goal from last night. You can slow this down (right click on the vid and press half speed) and you get a harrowing sense of how badly positioned we were for the entire thing.

The knock on effect from Can not following his man, and then how our CBs get caught in a no mans land a little. Its just all very poor. An excellent goal from Sevilla, for sure, but there's some really poor organisational stuff here from our perspective. As a unit we just are not drilled well in defensive scenarios, outside of that initial high press.

https://streamable.com/tqzkw

So who do we blame for this? Watched this a good few times and paused it and you can pick holes in a number of players.

Ultimately my call is that Henderson (as a DM playing in a side with a one goal lead) needs to be in position in front of the back two. It's that pocket of space where the player hurts us. The player Henderson was initially tracking should have been left by Hendo (Gomez could pick him up), and Henderson should come back inside and defend that pocket in between the lines (where we ultimately get hurt).

Now in fairness to Henderson, he might say he just broke his bollix to track a run on the overlap (also part of the DM role), and he might expect a bit of help from Can here to cover. Can has switched off here - you're 2-1 up with 15 minutes left, your instincts should lean on the defensive side, even if you are playing as an "8" in this system.

Lovren totally gets taken out of the game - caught in no man's land. Not going to say it's his fault, but doesn't cover himself in glory either imo. Either he tracks the runner and allows a shot or he comes out aggressively to challenge the ball and block the pass. In Lovren's defence, he was left somewhat exposed in a virtual 2 on 1 so he would say he was doing his best to split them.

Moreno (in hindsight) should have continued tracking the goalscorer (as he initially was doing) but he made a quick move to block the overlap on the far side (his side). Again not going to put the blame on Moreno here, but maybe a player with better defensive instincts spots that the threat is through the middle. Again though he's caught between two players arguably and if Moreno challenges the goalscorer and the ball gets shifted wide to what is Moreno's man, then maybe we criticise him for getting sucked in. Would be interesting to hear a full-back's perspective - it's fashionable to criticise Moreno's defending but I'm not convinced it's his fault.

Klopp (I hope) will have clear views as to who is culpable here as he should have a better view of what player instructions are (i.e. is Henderson told to get straight back into that pocket whenever the opposition have the ball? Is Can told to keep an eye out in case Hendo gets sucked wide and cover him centrally if so?)

So TLDR:

- Henderson needs to own that "between the lines" space as a DM and he didn't.

- Can needs to be more switched on and have better defensive instincts to get behind the ball in this situation - should have noticed that Hendo got pulled wide and dropped into the pocket

- Lovren is left exposed. It's not fantastic defending by him as he gets totally caught between two options and essentially taken out of the game. Bad position for him to be left in but maybe a top quality CB deals with this

- Moreno similar to Lovren. He is trying to tuck in and cover inside but has half an eye on the man outside him so not a good position for him to be left in. But would a top quality defence minded LB come in hard with a challenge seeing that the real threat is there?

So I think it's a mixture of concentration and player abilities, and also instincts and tactics at that stage of the game (which falls on Klopp). We need to be better at shutting down games. Even if it's boring. We need that Mourinho defensive mentality at times. I think if the team were given clear instructions at that point of the game that the priority is number1 not to concede, then Salah drops in to take the thrower, Gomez moves back to pick up Hendo's man and allows Hendo to drop back into the pocket, and Can gets himself immediately behind the ball.

Hopefully lessons are learned from that goal, it was evidence of our systematic defensive problems and our poor game management (overtly attacking instincts at a time where we are winning a game with not long left), as well as arguable player issues (Hendo not a natural DM, Lovren and Moreno not good enough)

dogbert27

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Loads gave out about Lucas doing that but he was a master at that stopping the play by giving the foul away instead of letting the defence get carved open.

The same with City's last 3 goals at the week they could have been stopped with a cheap foul.

It would have been good to keep Lucas for one more year considering Keita isn't arriving until next summer.

Although buying Robertson meant Milner was going back as a midfield option.

Overall though I think our players need to be more cynical in these situations.

Tipsy McSwagger

I'm resigned to the fact that with Henderson as captain and rubbish keepers and a putrid defence that we will win nothing and finish outside the top 4. Getting bored of the same old shyte.

Harry Palmr

The play was already ahead of Can, as was Henderson who didn't challenge at all he assumed Lovren/Moreno would get a challenge in but watch the ball clip the heel of Correa - it took both Liverpool players out of the picture. Pure chance the ball could have pinged backwards or squirted right just as easily. It wasn't brilliant control just luck.

edit not a clip - hit right inside of his boot but nonetheless slightly luckily and it still took two defenders out of the equation.

edit edit - was the left foot dragging the ball through, still could have gone wrong but maybe I'm underestimating the touch of the player! (oh for proper HD pictures)

What is notable speaking generally is how Liverpool fall asleep when the ball is dead, no one seems to spot a likely run or even the potential line of a run. Just ****ing stand in the right place and the throw will go backwards or sideways.

Crash Bang Wall

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I haven't seen it mentioned but in the build up to there goal the ball was free at the edge of our box about 60/40 in Can's favour and he totally bottled the tackle and then comedy insued for there goal

It wasnt 60/40....it was 100/0, but he dawdled and tried to almost flick it away, instead of just winning the tackle and making a pass. Maschrano or Lucas would have won the ball 100 times out of 100

shamrock55

Mr.H wrote: »

So how do you decide which one knows better when former players and "experts" have opposing views??

This is a lazy argument that a former player/pundit says it so they automatically know better.

I respect Didi and his views and opinions. But he is not infallible. He was also not right that Moreno was to blame for either goal. It was Lovren who missed a simple kick for the first and Lovren who let his man get away from him for the second. It was also Can who did absolutely fu&k all tonight. In fact Moreno was one of the best players on the pitch tonight and had a great game.

Do I think that Didi is full of it? No of course not. But I dont agree with him and I dont agree with you. But you know what thats ok. I have no ill feelings towards you and for what its worth I dont give two craps who you blame for tonight because the result stays the same.

It doesnt matter what either of us, or Didi for a fact, thinks! Its what Klopp thinks that matters. Only he can change the team and influence them. Its his job and he is paid enough to do it.

I think we will still get out of the group. The other draw tonight in the group was a great result for us. Keep the Russians out of the run for a top 2 spot. If and thats a big IF, we can pick up a win in the next game we should have an easy run in the group. It doesnt matter first or second. We just need to get out of the group.

what's the point of this forum? I said i agree with Didi comments yet I'm told I only believe what the TV tells me,if we cant express an opinion then close the forum down

Crash Bang Wall

Morzadec wrote: »

So who do we blame for this? Watched this a good few times and paused it and you can pick holes in a number of players.

Ultimately my call is that Henderson (as a DM playing in a side with a one goal lead) needs to be in position in front of the back two. It's that pocket of space where the player hurts us. The player Henderson was initially tracking should have been left by Hendo (Gomez could pick him up), and Henderson should come back inside and defend that pocket in between the lines (where we ultimately get hurt).

Now in fairness to Henderson, he might say he just broke his bollix to track a run on the overlap (also part of the DM role), and he might expect a bit of help from Can here to cover. Can has switched off here - you're 2-1 up with 15 minutes left, your instincts should lean on the defensive side, even if you are playing as an "8" in this system.

Lovren totally gets taken out of the game - caught in no man's land. Not going to say it's his fault, but doesn't cover himself in glory either imo. Either he tracks the runner and allows a shot or he comes out aggressively to challenge the ball and block the pass. In Lovren's defence, he was left somewhat exposed in a virtual 2 on 1 so he would say he was doing his best to split them.

Moreno (in hindsight) should have continued tracking the goalscorer (as he initially was doing) but he made a quick move to block the overlap on the far side (his side). Again not going to put the blame on Moreno here, but maybe a player with better defensive instincts spots that the threat is through the middle. Again though he's caught between two players arguably and if Moreno challenges the goalscorer and the ball gets shifted wide to what is Moreno's man, then maybe we criticise him for getting sucked in. Would be interesting to hear a full-back's perspective - it's fashionable to criticise Moreno's defending but I'm not convinced it's his fault.

Klopp (I hope) will have clear views as to who is culpable here as he should have a better view of what player instructions are (i.e. is Henderson told to get straight back into that pocket whenever the opposition have the ball? Is Can told to keep an eye out in case Hendo gets sucked wide and cover him centrally if so?)

So TLDR:

- Henderson needs to own that "between the lines" space as a DM and he didn't.

- Can needs to be more switched on and have better defensive instincts to get behind the ball in this situation - should have noticed that Hendo got pulled wide and dropped into the pocket

- Lovren is left exposed. It's not fantastic defending by him as he gets totally caught between two options and essentially taken out of the game. Bad position for him to be left in but maybe a top quality CB deals with this

- Moreno similar to Lovren. He is trying to tuck in and cover inside but has half an eye on the man outside him so not a good position for him to be left in. But would a top quality defence minded LB come in hard with a challenge seeing that the real threat is there?

So I think it's a mixture of concentration and player abilities, and also instincts and tactics at that stage of the game (which falls on Klopp). We need to be better at shutting down games. Even if it's boring. We need that Mourinho defensive mentality at times. I think if the team were given clear instructions at that point of the game that the priority is number1 not to concede, then Salah drops in to take the thrower, Gomez moves back to pick up Hendo's man and allows Hendo to drop back into the pocket, and Can gets himself immediately behind the ball.

Hopefully lessons are learned from that goal, it was evidence of our systematic defensive problems and our poor game management (overtly attacking instincts at a time where we are winning a game with not long left), as well as arguable player issues (Hendo not a natural DM, Lovren and Moreno not good enough)

My take is Hendo covered Gomez, and Can needed to drop a few yards to cut out the throw to Muriel I think it was......when that didnt happen, Matip and Lovern were out of position, and Moreno had a choice of go to the ball or the man on his outside and he chose to go with the man on his outside (wrong call)

If Can does his job, the throw goes back towards the half way line and the chance never happens

shamrock55

Rekop dog wrote: »

Didi is a shambles of a person who's in massive debt due to losing enormous amounts of money on having very poor opinions on football outcomes. It's why he does every TV show going.

that's a disgraceful comment fella and has no bareing on his opinions on Liverpool football club

5starpool

rob316 wrote: »

Against Burnley this is what I would like to see

Milner - Matip- Gomez - Robertson

It cant do any worse than having Moreno and Lovren in there.

Milner will start in midfield. I reckon as well as him, Robertson, Sturridge, Coutinho, Chamberlain, Klavan, TAA and Mignolet will start. Risky strategy though. Firmino or Salah, Matip and probably Wijnaldum will retain their starting spots.

yourdeadwright

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Morzadec wrote: »

So who do we blame for this?  Watched this a good few times and paused it and you can pick holes in a number of players.

Ultimately my call is that Henderson (as a DM playing in a side with a one goal lead) needs to be in position in front of the back two.  It's that pocket of space where the player hurts us.  The player Henderson was initially tracking should have been left by Hendo (Gomez could pick him up), and Henderson should come back inside and defend that pocket in between the lines (where we ultimately get hurt).

Now in fairness to Henderson, he might say he just broke his bollix to track a run on the overlap (also part of the DM role), and he might expect a bit of help from Can here to cover.  Can has switched off here - you're 2-1 up with 15 minutes left, your instincts should lean on the defensive side, even if you are playing as an "8" in this system.

Lovren totally gets taken out of the game - caught in no man's land.  Not going to say it's his fault, but doesn't cover himself in glory either imo.  Either he tracks the runner and allows a shot or he comes out aggressively to challenge the ball and block the pass.  In Lovren's defence, he was left somewhat exposed in a virtual 2 on 1 so he would say he was doing his best to split them.

Moreno (in hindsight) should have continued tracking the goalscorer (as he initially was doing) but he made a quick move to block the overlap on the far side (his side).  Again not going to put the blame on Moreno here, but maybe a player with better defensive instincts spots that the threat is through the middle.  Again though he's caught between two players arguably and if Moreno challenges the goalscorer and the ball gets shifted wide to what is Moreno's man, then maybe we criticise him for getting sucked in.  Would be interesting to hear a full-back's perspective - it's fashionable to criticise Moreno's defending but I'm not convinced it's his fault.

Klopp (I hope) will have clear views as to who is culpable here as he should have a better view of what player instructions are (i.e. is Henderson told to get straight back into that pocket whenever the opposition have the ball? Is Can told to keep an eye out in case Hendo gets sucked wide and cover him centrally if so?)

So TLDR:

- Henderson needs to own that "between the lines" space as a DM and he didn't.

- Can needs to be more switched on and have better defensive instincts to get behind the ball in this situation - should have noticed that Hendo got pulled wide and dropped into the pocket

- Lovren is left exposed.  It's not fantastic defending by him as he gets totally caught between two options and essentially taken out of the game.  Bad position for him to be left in but maybe a top quality CB deals with this

- Moreno similar to Lovren.  He is trying to tuck in and cover inside but has half an eye on the man outside him so not a good position for him to be left in.  But would a top quality defence minded LB come in hard with a challenge seeing that the real threat is there?

So I think it's a mixture of concentration and player abilities, and also instincts and tactics at that stage of the game (which falls on Klopp).  We need to be better at shutting down games.  Even if it's boring.  We need that Mourinho defensive mentality at times.  I think if the team were given clear instructions at that point of the game that the priority is number1 not to concede, then Salah drops in to take the thrower, Gomez moves back to pick up Hendo's man and allows Hendo to drop back into the pocket, and Can gets himself immediately behind the ball.

Hopefully lessons are learned from that goal, it was evidence of our systematic defensive problems and our poor game management (overtly attacking instincts at a time where we are winning a game with not long left), as well as arguable player issues (Hendo not a natural DM, Lovren and Moreno not good enough)

My take is Hendo covered Gomez, and Can needed to drop a few yards to cut out the throw to Muriel I think it was......when that didnt happen, Matip and Lovern were out of position, and Moreno had a choice of go to the ball or the man on his outside and he chose to go with the man on his outside (wrong call)

If Can does his job, the throw goes back towards the half way line and the chance never happens

I agree with 90% of this but I think Moreno was tracking the goal scorer with half an eye on the winger  but when the ball clipped your mans heal Moreno instantly changed direction thinking it would run to the winger but it spun and the goal scorer got the shot away, Very hard to blame Moreno as many said if he tucked right it then it would have been played to the free winger and people would say he came inside to much,
He really just gambled because he had to and unlucky for him it didn't come off, But he was left isolated with twe players to watch so not his fault

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

5starpool wrote: »

Milner will start in midfield. I reckon as well as him, Robertson, Sturridge, Coutinho, Chamberlain, Klavan, TAA and Mignolet will start. Risky strategy though. Firmino or Salah, Matip and probably Wijnaldum will retain their starting spots.

Countinho in for Mane, Mignolet back in goals. Other than that, same as the last two games barring injuries.

billymitchell

Anything to be said for going 3 at the back again?

yourdeadwright

I think we will win with a clean sheet, 2-0
I think Chelsea wil ldraw with Arsenal and United will beat Everton 3-0

shamrock55

billymitchell wrote: »

Anything to be said for going 3 at the back again?

Please god no

dogbert27

I think we should just forget about defence.

Team for the weekend:
GK: Mignolet
Defence: -
Midfield: Milner, Can, Henderson, Coutinho, Wijnaldum
Strikers: Ox, Solanke, Sturridge, Firmino, Salah

Just tell them go out and do what they want.

DrumSteve

dogbert27 wrote: »

I think we should just forget about defence.

Team for the weekend:
GK: Mignolet
Defence: -
Midfield: Milner, Can, Henderson, Coutinho, Wijnaldum
Strikers: Ox, Solanke, Sturridge, Firmino, Salah

Just tell them go out and do what they want.

Bit harsh on TAA, Matip and Gomez.

5starpool

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Countinho in for Mane, Mignolet back in goals. Other than that, same as the last two games barring injuries.

It won't be though, he'll make a good few changes I'm pretty sure. Maybe not 8, but at least 5. Robertson, Milner, Sturridge, Coutinho, mignolet will all definitely start I reckon for sure.

Knex*

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

My take is Hendo covered Gomez, and Can needed to drop a few yards to cut out the throw to Muriel I think it was......when that didnt happen, Matip and Lovern were out of position, and Moreno had a choice of go to the ball or the man on his outside and he chose to go with the man on his outside (wrong call)

If Can does his job, the throw goes back towards the half way line and the chance never happens

Same. I don't really put much, if any, blame on Henderson for this goal. Can is the obvious ones but I'd have far more concern with Matip, Gomez and Lovren, although Lovren was sold short by the positioning of everyone else and sequence of events.

Ultimately though, we're meant to be a unit, but we have too many players out of position, not communicating, and not doing their jobs. You can get by with one, but not when its as widespread through our team as it currently is.

BullBlackNova

billymitchell wrote: »

Anything to be said for going 3 at the back again?

With the players we have, going 3 at the back would be a mess I'd say. Might negate some of our defensive issues but would also remove a lot of our best attackers from their best positions, nullifying the best part of our game.

Sadly, we don't really have the players to switch system. It'll be 4-3-3 until we invest in a new defence and we all know what the story is there...

On Saturday, I'd go...

Mignolet
Gomez - Matip - Lovren - Robertson
Can - Henderson - Coutinho
Oxlade-Chamberlain - Firmino - Salah

Bring in Sturridge or Solanke if we are struggling for a goal, maybe consider TAA or Moreno (but not both) to offer us a bit more going forward from the back.

Nerdlingr

yourdeadwright wrote: »

If he wants to be a 6 he should no when is the right time to make these fouls, and that was the time,
Matic, Casimero, and the likes would all have tripped him in the same situation , infact I think if Can (I know his fault it happened)  had of been there he would have done it, iv seen him do it a few times already ,

Sure the only time he, or any of us, knew when he should have made the foul was after the goal had happened. Hindsight is great thing!!

You cant blame Henderson for not fouling the man. It wasnt like a break away from the opposition where you pull a player down or take him out of it, 'take one for the team'. This was open play from a throw in with three defenders behind him. As i said if we're gonna give away needless fouls every time the opposition pick up the ball outside our box, were not gonna have very many players left on the pitch...and we all know how susceptible we are to set pieces !!!

Simple fact is Henderson has just tracked his man all the way back behind gomez when the ball goes out for a throw...he's still moving and is supposed to cover the man inside the pocket of space now as well ?? this is where his midfield partners of Wijanldum and Can have to put in the hard yards and get back to cover. Wijnaldum cant get back in time and Can is strolling back, oblivious to danger.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

5starpool wrote: »

It won't be though, he'll make a good few changes I'm pretty sure. Maybe not 8, but at least 5. Robertson, Milner, Sturridge, Coutinho, mignolet will all definitely start I reckon for sure.

In fairness, I did say Mignolet and Countinho. Of the others - if he was all that concenred, Milner and Robertson would hve started last night and Sturridge is not going to get the nod ahead of Salah or Firmino.

Morzadec

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

My take is Hendo covered Gomez, and Can needed to drop a few yards to cut out the throw to Muriel I think it was......when that didnt happen, Matip and Lovern were out of position, and Moreno had a choice of go to the ball or the man on his outside and he chose to go with the man on his outside (wrong call)

If Can does his job, the throw goes back towards the half way line and the chance never happens

Yeah I guess of everyone there that I mention they all have an excuse of sorts except for Can.

It's the whole team and mentality that's at fault as I said, but Can has no excuses for not looking alive and getting back to support Hendo

ElTel

I hope Coutinho starts in CM and Robertson plays LB.
Moreno or Solanke/Sturridge to replace Mane in the attack.
There will probably be more changes. Will Klopp start Ox as a forward or in midfield or go with Milner?

Some will argue that they will have a week off but imo our midfield needs a shake-up.

yourdeadwright

Nerdlingr wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

If he wants to be a 6 he should no when is the right time to make these fouls, and that was the time,
Matic, Casimero, and the likes would all have tripped him in the same situation , infact I think if Can (I know his fault it happened)  had of been there he would have done it, iv seen him do it a few times already ,

Sure the only time he, or any of us, knew when he should have made the foul was after the goal had happened. Hindsight is great thing!!

You cant blame Henderson for not fouling the man. It wasnt like a break away from the opposition where you pull a player down or take him out of it, 'take one for the team'. This was open play from a throw in with three defenders behind him. As i said if we're gonna give away needless fouls every time the opposition pick up the ball outside our box, were not gonna have very many players left on the pitch...and we all know how susceptible we are to set pieces !!!

Simple fact is Henderson has just tracked his man all the way back behind gomez when the ball goes out for a throw...he's still moving and is supposed to cover the man inside the pocket of space now as well ?? this is where his midfield partners of Wijanldum and Can have to put in the hard yards and get back to cover.  Wijnaldum cant get back in time and Can is strolling back, oblivious to danger.

Nerdlingr wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

If he wants to be a 6 he should no when is the right time to make these fouls, and that was the time,
Matic, Casimero, and the likes would all have tripped him in the same situation , infact I think if Can (I know his fault it happened)  had of been there he would have done it, iv seen him do it a few times already ,

Sure the only time he, or any of us, knew when he should have made the foul was after the goal had happened. Hindsight is great thing!!

You cant blame Henderson for not fouling the man. It wasnt like a break away from the opposition where you pull a player down or take him out of it, 'take one for the team'. This was open play from a throw in with three defenders behind him. As i said if we're gonna give away needless fouls every time the opposition pick up the ball outside our box, were not gonna have very many players left on the pitch...and we all know how susceptible we are to set pieces !!!

Simple fact is Henderson has just tracked his man all the way back behind gomez when the ball goes out for a throw...he's still moving and is supposed to cover the man inside the pocket of space now as well ?? this is where his midfield partners of Wijanldum and Can have to put in the hard yards and get back to cover.  Wijnaldum cant get back in time and Can is strolling back, oblivious to danger.

I agree it wasn't Henderson fault and he was covering for others , (Can really who couldn't run for about an hour ) I'm just saying when he looked around and seen the man baring down on the defence with 2 other (basically it was 3 on 3 ) he should have been clinical and tripped him ,Its not like its a huge mistake by Henderson but its just something I think a top DM would see and react to, Some time we are very nice about things and not clever enough to foul when its needed,
But I do agree its not his fault for the goal he was covering others mistakes,

5starpool

5starpool wrote: »

It won't be though, he'll make a good few changes I'm pretty sure. Maybe not 8, but at least 5. Robertson, Milner, Sturridge, Coutinho, mignolet will all definitely start I reckon for sure.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In fairness, I did say Mignolet and Countinho. Of the others - if he was all that concenred, Milner and Robertson would hve started last night and Sturridge is not going to get the nod ahead of Salah or Firmino.

I'd be amazed if Sturridge started tbh.

5starpool

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In fairness, I did say Mignolet and Countinho. Of the others - if he was all that concenred, Milner and Robertson would hve started last night and Sturridge is not going to get the nod ahead of Salah or Firmino.

I didn't say he thinks they would be in his strongest team, I'm basing it on the type of changes he made for the Palace game after Hoffenheim. He'll rotate.

Osmosis Jones

Want Coutinho starting Central and Ox on the wing but think they'll actually have their positions swapped

JB81

Can't see many changes to be honest, why would he. He deems this to be his strongest team.

Mig will come back in.
Possibly Robertson instead of Moreno, but i don't think he will.
Coutinho for Mane and midfield three same with Bobby and Salah.

It was a home game, no travelling, its not like they need to be rested.

Leicester game in the cup will be full changes.

Ward
TAA Klavan Gomez Robertson/Moreno ( whichever doesn't play against urnley )

Milner Ox Grujic

Sturridge Solanke Woodburn/Ings

shamrock55

dogbert27 wrote: »

I think we should just forget about defence.

Team for the weekend:
GK: Mignolet
Defence: -
Midfield: Milner, Can, Henderson, Coutinho, Wijnaldum
Strikers: Ox, Solanke, Sturridge, Firmino, Salah

Just tell them go out and do what they want.

Im begining to think that's what Klopp says now

BorneTobyWilde

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

No...... both goals were all Morenos fault. Dunphy wouldnt say it if it wasnt true

2nd goal a lot to do with Moreno. The ball to the guy that scored was quite behind him, Moreno thought it was behind him and stopped and started to make a run towards corner flag, direction he thought ball was going. That little misjudgement gave their player all the time in the world.
Moreno should have not assumed ball was missing that player that scored. He should have tracked him fully, not hesitated and change direction.

https://streamable.com/tqzkw

yourdeadwright

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

No...... both goals were all Morenos fault. Dunphy wouldnt say it if it wasnt true

2nd goal a lot to do with Moreno. The ball to the guy that scored was quite behind him, Moreno thought it was behind him and stopped and started to make a run towards corner flag, direction he thought ball was going. That little misjudgement gave their player all the time in the world.
Moreno should have not assumed ball was missing that player that scored. He should

The problem was it was a bad ball for the goal scorer, its slightly behind him so if Moreno runs straight to the goal scorer and he step over it then the ball would have travelled straight to the right winger for a free shot , Its the luck he gets with the touch that catches Moreno  out,
If he had a good touch Moreno closes him down , if he doesn't  touch it Moreno cuts out the ball out to the winger , He gets lucky with a slight touch that sets Moreno out wide , u have to remember there at full speed so very hard for Moreno to adjust he had to take a chance and unlucky he picked the wrong one but its not his fault ,

brevity

Moreno should have anticipated the financial crash of 2008, useless so he is.

BorneTobyWilde

The whinger was no danger. He would get ball but in a difficult place to score from.

yourdeadwright

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

The whinger was no danger. He would get ball but in a difficult place to score from.

He would have had a free shot on goal from about 15 yards out or less .I think it was a very unlucky goal although very easy to stop if Can makes it 2 yards further back for the throw in ,
No one really mentioned how Bobby has to score his pen , if he does its game over, its just as criminal not to score a peno at that level , u can't let chance go like that,
I know its not our fault he can't defend but he should score

mosstin

Apart from dealing with the defensive options we have which are the worst of the Top 5, the fact that there's no Lucas to step in - which he did tellingly on occasion last season - makes it even more mystifying.
We haven't thought through our defence at all. Klopp keeps coming out after matches stating that we're "learning" but Lovren has been making - and will continue to make - these elementary errors for seasons now. I'm not even confident we'll try to address it in January because "the right player isn't available".

Talisman

Knex. wrote: »

Ultimately though, we're meant to be a unit, but we have too many players out of position, not communicating, and not doing their jobs. You can get by with one, but not when its as widespread through our team as it currently is.

Benitez had a policy of signing leaders for the core of the team, not always the most technical but players that took responsibility for themselves and weren't afraid to admonish those around them.

Daniel Agger (Denmark)
Xabi Alonso (Real Sociedad)
Craig Bellamy (Wales)
Yossi Benayoun (Israel)
Robbie Fowler (Liverpool)
Robbie Keane (Tottenham, R. Ireland)
Dirk Kuyt (Feyenoord)
Lucas Leiva (Gremio, Brazil U-20)
Javier Mascherano (Corinthians, Argentina)
Maxi Rodriguez (Atletico Madrid)
Martin Skrtel (Slovakia)
Fernando Torres (Atletico Madrid)

Twelve captain signings over five years, in addition to those he inherited from Gerard Houllier: Jamie Carragher (England U-21), Steven Gerrard (Liverpool, England), Sami Hyypia (Willem II, Liverpool, Finland).

That aspect of the team that has not been properly addressed since Benitez was sacked. By my count, the club has signed SEVEN players who have been captains at previous clubs or at international level in the last seven years.

2010/11
Andy Carroll
Joe Cole
Brad Jones
Milan Jovanovic
Paul Konchesky
Raul Meireles
Christian Poulsen
Luis Suarez (* Ajax)

2011/12
Charlie Adam
Craig Bellamy (* Cardiff, Wales)
Sebastian Coates
Doni
Stewart Downing
Jose Enrique
Jordan Henderson (* Sunderland, England U-21)

2012/13
Joe Allen
Oussama Assaidi
Fabio Borini
Philippe Coutinho
Daniel Sturridge

2013/14
Luis Alberto
Iago Aspas
Tiago Illori
Simon Mignolet
Mamadou Sakho (* PSG)
Kolo Toure (* Arsenal)

2014/15
Mario Balotelli
Dejan Lovren
Adam Lallana (* Southampton)
Lazar Markovic
Alberto Moreno
Divock Origi

2015/16
Christian Benteke
Adam Bogdan
Nathaniel Clyne
Roberto Firmino
Joe Gomez
Danny Ings
James Milner

2016/17
Marko Grujic
Lloris Karius
Ragnar Klavan
Saido Mane
Alex Manninger
Joel Matip
Georgino Wijnaldum (* PSV)

2017/18
Mohammed Salah
Dominic Solanke
Alex Oxlaide-Chamberlain
Andrew Robertson

It's not surprising that there is no leadership shown amongst the players on the pitch when the club doesn't actively recruit leaders.

ricero

Was only having a chat with my mate today about the lack of leadership in the team especially at the back.

What i would give to have a fella like carragher or hypia back there barking orders and organizing. I expect thats what klopp wanted van dijk to be doing if signed

yourdeadwright

mosstin wrote: »

Apart from dealing with the defensive options we have which are the worst of the Top 5, the fact that there's no Lucas to step in - which he did tellingly on occasion last season - makes it even more mystifying.
We haven't thought through our defence at all. Klopp keeps coming out after matches stating that we're "learning" but Lovren has been making - and will continue to make - these elementary errors for seasons now. I'm not even confident we'll try to address it in January because "the right player isn't available".

Ye letting Lucas go and not replacing him baffles me,
We let Lucas and Sahko go with no replacements , he's been here for 2 summers windows and brought in Karius 4.5 , Klavan 4.5 and Robertson was it 8? That's all we have spent on defence Matip was free
That is just shocking

yourdeadwright

Klavan captains Estonia well did anyway for a number of years but we get your point

Gbear

Some Hendo stats for the season (legue only).
Per 90 in comparison to Kante, Dier, Matic and himself from last season.

The pass completion is probably the most stark example of how poor he's been.

Although, what I would say is the the stats from last season do suggest it's not worth throwing in the towel.
"We're **** because Henderson is bad at football" isn't an argument that can be made at the moment.
He isn't performing though.

Someone made a good point on TAW there from the post-match show last night.
We've gone from playing with Clyne and Milner at full back and a tucked in Coutinho on the left, to two attacking full backs and two wide attacking wingers.

We can see the incredible amount of space we're getting on the flanks, how vulnerable we're making teams look and lots of other fantastic things but, I think the midfield is getting ****ed mercilessly by this system.

None of the three of them have looked good other than in patches against Arsenal and Hoffenheim at home, but in my eyes there are extenuating circumstances.

When your whole team is getting caught out on defence, is making the same category of errors with the ball, is rushing and so on, then the buck stops with the manager.

I think there's a particular form of brilliance, in any pursuit, that revolves around doing unorthodox things to a incredibly high standard and it allows you to reach levels higher than any form of orthodoxy.

I think that's what our system is all about.

It's a bit like a forumla one car.
They don't actually work as normal cars. You need to go beyond a certain speed or the thing just wobbles all over the place.
Or Eurofighter Typhoons. They have the aerodynamics of a brick, but the computers keep them in the air, and that allows them to pull manoeuvers that would be impossible for more conventional aircraft.

Of course, if you drive too slow to get your downforce, or the computers fail, you crash and burn.

We don't have the right balance at the minute, in terms of coherency of the press, quality on the ball and ruthlessness in the finish to play this system properly and consistently, and it's a system that gets taken to the cleaners when that's the case.

Lovren's ****up was monumental, and he shouldn't have done it, but it wouldn't have been an orthodox piece of defending in a functional defensive system. It was attempting to paper over the cracks because of multiple systemic and individual **** ups.
We need better paperers but the cracks will probably always be there.

Harry Palmr

I wonder is the amount of trust being placed in Naby Keita to fix a broken system misplaced? If the tactical set up remains the same will he end up looking ineffective in the defensive side of his role?

Rekop dog

The system isn't broken lol. And yes he will improve them.

theoneeyedman

https://twitter.com/mikesanz19/status/908072782147321863


OK might be unfair on him, but still...

mosstin

Gbear - love reading your posts.

~Rebel~

Knex. wrote: »

This is Sevilla's 2nd goal from last night. You can slow this down (right click on the vid and press half speed) and you get a harrowing sense of how badly positioned we were for the entire thing.

The knock on effect from Can not following his man, and then how our CBs get caught in a no mans land a little. Its just all very poor. An excellent goal from Sevilla, for sure, but there's some really poor organisational stuff here from our perspective. As a unit we just are not drilled well in defensive scenarios, outside of that initial high press.

https://streamable.com/tqzkw

That really is shocking from Can in particular. Whatever about that technically being Henderson's part of the field, Hendo's already marking someone - obviously people can't stay in their 'official' starting position for the whole game. At a set piece in our own half, everyone just has to cover a man. There's so much time there for Can to look around before the throw is taken, see a free man in one of the most dangerous areas on the field, and go stand on him. Criminal to let a guy not only easily receive the ball there, but to give him the time and space to get turned and run straight at goal.

(And yes, in that position, Hendo absolutely has just just clip his heels when it's clear he's not going to catch him. Well worth giving up the yellow)