Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2017/2018

jesus_thats_gre

Grayditch wrote: »

There might come a time where Klopp thinks, jaysus, we might have to have a look at this defensive situation. Stranger things have happened.

Shock horror!!

You reckon that he might eventually conclude that spending money is a way of solving the problem too?

Alonso77

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Sturridges ding for Milner was world class, I thought it was the moment we needed. Table after 10 games will usually reflect the type of season we're going to have.
5 down, 5 to go.
We've conceded a goal for every one we've scored, you have to look to the relegation zone for teams that have 9 conceded after 5 games

We've also scored 9 goals too. Relegation candidates generally will have a negative goal difference. I don't think we're quite relegation form yet.

Grayditch

I've come to terms with us not signing defenders that weren't Robertson or Van Dijk.

But would some focus on tidying up sloppiness at the back really damage the integrity of this attack driven style?

Or is it ok to wonder thesw things without questioning the very integrity of the manager.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

......

Maybe there's a tipping point where our finishing becomes so ruthless, our possession becomes so reliable or our press is so good at recovering the ball that we'll keep opponents away from dangerous areas of the pitch or be so far out of sight that it'll never matter if they score.......

Do you honestly reckon that "maybe" is remotely realistic to happen frequently enough in either the Pl or the CL to be successful?

"It'll never matter if they score..."

We will always batter a fair number of teams. You can't hope to batter all of them or keep them away from dangerous areas.

Alonso77

1 loss in 8 competitive games this season. We don't lose many games under klopp. That is as good as starting point with any manager. Hopefully we can move on to next level as the season goes on. We will go on a run at some stage like we did last yr.

Jesus Wept

shaunr68 wrote: »

Top rant, he does have a point, I can see the frustration and discontent growing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05gb005

He is a numptie.

Gbear

Augeo wrote: »

Do you honestly reckon that "maybe" is remotely realistic to happen frequently enough in either the Pl or the CL to be successful?

"It'll never matter if they score..."

We will always batter a fair number of teams. You can't hope to batter all of them or keep them away from dangerous areas.

That'll be when we're winning the league with 114 pts.

In the mean time it'll be about progressing towards it. The better we get at it, the more points there will be.

I think we'll be better at it this season than last and next season we'll be better than this one.

The decisions that have been made this season would suggest to me that Klopp isn't interested in generally compromising on what his vision is.
He's gone for more pace and attack from Moreno while also having 2 wide forwards in Mane and Salah. He's been happy to chuck in TAA when Gomez is, better or worse, certainly capable of more solid RB play. He's let Lucas go and not really replaced him at all - the midfield target was another all-rounder who'd maybe refine our midfield but not change the strategy at play in it.

The aim of the game is keeping the opposition pinned back, recovering the ball quickly, and scaring the **** out of them so much with the threat of our attackers that they lose before they set foot on the pitch.

Whether or not that's currently working is another matter but I think the evidence points to Klopp being more interested in the kind of solidity the likes Pep's Barca had, rather than via regular defending.

NukaCola

At some point we'll have to play Lovren and Klavan together.....that'll be great

ERG89

Augeo wrote:

Both Manchester clubs 5 points ahead of us now

Everton 4 points behind us stings more as our recent form has been inspirational compared to theirs.
As ricero said it's all about a top 4 spot again as we are guaranteed a group stage CL spot then with the new layout.
Really hoping Spurs continue to struggle at Wembley now.....

Kerrigooney

NukaCola wrote: »

At some point we'll have to play Lovren and Klavan together.....that'll be great

Definitely gonna have to give that one a miss.

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

.....

The aim of the game is keeping the opposition pinned back, recovering the ball quickly, and scaring the **** out of them so much with the threat of our attackers that they lose before they set foot on the pitch.

Whether or not that's currently working is another matter but I think the evidence points to Klopp being more interested in the kind of solidity the likes Pep's Barca had, rather than via regular defending.

You need to be quite adept at regular defending though for that strategy you outlined to work.

The opposition can resort to hoofball and cynical fouls to disrupt being pinned back.

Them losing before stepping on the pitch is highly aspirational and frankly delusional IMO.

You need a gulf in talent pools to pull that off, sort of a Celtic & the SPL set up.

BorneTobyWilde

We're on course to concede a record amount of goals this season.

BorneTobyWilde

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

We're on course to concede a record amount of goals this season.

5 of the pl goals conceded were against man city in a strange game. That needs to be discarded from any extrapolations IMO.

I expect us to concede 40/45 pl goals.

Crash Bang Wall

ricero wrote: »

I agree with you there. Surely it was dangerous play what luiz did. He was surronded by men and connected flush with the players face

High foot is dangerous play.....that is the issue.....Contact with someones face/shoulder etc, is, unfortunate, but irrelevant, unless the high boot was there to intentionally injure the player

Crash Bang Wall

Talisman wrote: »

Expectations for TAA need to be tempered. He's an 18 year old boy getting his first run in the team - it's a massive step up from the U-23 level.

One of the muppets on MOTD (Shearer I think) was eager to point out how easily he was beaten in the air leading up to the goal. Maybe the club should send TAA to the Tower of London so he can get a few stretching sessions on the rack - it might encourage him to sprout a few more inches and improve his chances in those aerial challenges. I have no doubt that Sean Dyche would have told his players to target TAA when he saw the team sheet, that's the kind of tactical tweak that Burnley survive on.

When Spurs beat Chelsea at WHL last season they targeted Azpiliceuta in the air......I didnt see many of the experts slating him there. Alli won numerous headers against him, and from what I can remember a goal came from that mismatch

54and56

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

High foot is dangerous play.....that is the issue.....Contact with someones face/shoulder etc, is, unfortunate, but irrelevant, unless the high boot was there to intentionally injure the player

Only if it places another player in danger. You can swing your boot as high as you like if there isn't another player likely to come into contact with it.

54and56

Talisman wrote: »

One of the muppets on MOTD (Shearer I think) was eager to point out how easily he was beaten in the air leading up to the goal.

So the PL's leading all time goal scorer is a Muppet? Which of the football analysts/pundits on TV aren't muppets in your view?

Also, what exactly was wrong with what Shearer said? TAA was easily beaten in the air and it contributed to the goal. Should he not point that out for some reason?

BullBlackNova

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

When Spurs beat Chelsea at WHL last season they targeted Azpiliceuta in the air......I didnt see many of the experts slating him there. Alli won numerous headers against him, and from what I can remember a goal came from that mismatch

I actually remember Azpilicueta getting absolutely slated over that by MotD and Sky tbf. I don't often defend their punditry, but they did say it. Spurs were one of a few teams to find joy against Chelsea that way and I can remember a few pundits discussing it.

Talisman

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

When Spurs beat Chelsea at WHL last season they targeted Azpiliceuta in the air......I didnt see many of the experts slating him there. Alli won numerous headers against him, and from what I can remember a goal came from that mismatch

There is a media narrative that Liverpool can't/don't know how to defend, the experts look for every piece of evidence to support this and reinforce their point. In Chelsea's case it would never be considered because Conte is an Italian manager who managed a great Italian team, Italians instinctively know how to defend etc.

A lifetime ago Gerard Houllier built a Liverpool defence that was very difficult to break down. The narrative became you could get at the Liverpool defence with pace because Thierry Henry skinned Jamie Carragher with his pace and Sami Hyypia got a red card for a trip on Ruud van Nistelrooy. It doesn't take a genius to figure out these things but muppets recycled it ad nauseam.

When Benitez became manager, it was zonal marking - Liverpool couldn't defend corners etc. This was despite the fact that the team kept the most clean sheets and had one of the tightest defences in the league.

At present we are being undone by individual errors but that isn't the media's focus, instead we listen to how Liverpool can't defend. If the team were to cut the errors out for a few games it would breathe a bit of confidence and self belief into the players. As soon as the errors happen again we'd be back to listening to "same old Liverpool can't defend" etc.

What would the experts have to talk about if we have a solid partnership in central defence and a competent left back? Possibly that the fullbacks can't cross a ball. Despite crosses having a statistically low success rate in the game (~20%), the failure to deliver the pin point accuracy final ball would be seen as an issue.

A year ago the same experts were climbing over each to see who could reach furthest up Klopp's ****hole praising his brand of football - the difference was that the forward line were finishing a greater percentage of the chances created.

Talisman

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

So the PL's leading all time goal scorer is a Muppet? Which of the football analysts/pundits on TV aren't muppets in your view?

Also, what exactly was wrong with what Shearer said? TAA was easily beaten in the air and it contributed to the goal. Should he not point that out for some reason?

I think any of the personalities that are incapable of providing insightful analysis are muppets.

Did I contradict what he said? No.

Talisman

Talisman wrote: »

.....

At present we are being undone by individual errors but that isn't the media's focus, instead we listen to how Liverpool can't defend. If the team were to cut the errors out for a few games it would breathe a bit of confidence and self belief into the players. As soon as the errors happen again we'd be back to listening to "same old Liverpool can't defend" etc.

.....

Surely repeated defensive errors by individuals & the narrative that Liverpool can't defend are one and the same issue?

Not making mistakes is key to good defending.

Quite a few individual mistakes leading to goals is poor defending.

No?

Under Rodgers there was loads of individuals making defensive mistakes too...there's nothing new going on.

We are poor at defending set pieces, often unmarked attackers get chances... is that poor defending or zonal marking? Result is the same.

Bandana boy

The same Burnley player got two headers in from corners unmarked at the back post at the end of the game yesterday. One required us to clear of the line and the other a decent save from Simon otherwise we would have been beaten at home by a team with near the worst away record in the league.
This is not just about individual errors.
I cannot imagine any other team with aspirations to win the league who does not have a Keeper or Defender who would address an unmarked player getting a free header for the follow up corner.

I lover Herr Klopp but we will win nothing until he addresses our defense either through recruitment or coaching and I suspect we will need both.

yourdeadwright

Looking forward to tomorrow, to see some of the fringe players get a chance,
Not to worried if we win or lose to be honest, id love to see Ward , Gomez (at CD), OX and Solanke all start ,Maybe even Woodburn

Harambe

Would like to see Solanke get 90 mins tomorrow. He's a very promising player for us.

Crash Bang Wall

BullBlackNova wrote: »

I actually remember Azpilicueta getting absolutely slated over that by MotD and Sky tbf. I don't often defend their punditry, but they did say it. Spurs were one of a few teams to find joy against Chelsea that way and I can remember a few pundits discussing it.

I stand corrected.....I seen highlights of the game and read the papers, and it was glossed over in both

citytillidie

anybody have a spare £90




http://store.liverpoolfc.com/lfc-mens-elite-pitch-black-shirt-17-18/

brevity

€112.50

It's a lot of money. For something like this they should remove all the sponsors from the top.

5starpool

brevity wrote: »

€112.50

It's a lot of money. For something like this they should remove all the sponsors from the top.

For that price it should come with a personal trainer to help fat fcks like me fit into it.

Turtyturd

Worst part is 90 sterling isn't 112 euro.

murpho999

Turtyturd wrote: »

Worst part is 90 sterling isn't 112 euro.

I think you can pay in sterling works out a lot cheaper. Especially if you have a revolut card

BorneTobyWilde

Too grey
Needs more color like this .

sword1

Turtyturd wrote: »

Worst part is 90 sterling isn't 112 euro.

Gets worse if you are getting for yourself and a couple of kids

Grayditch

Damn I was hoping it wouldn't be that expensive. Also looks fairly unforgiving for someone like me who likes a beer or... nine.

sword1

Turtyturd wrote: »

Worst part is 90 sterling isn't 112 euro.

What's the exchange rate for Egyptian pounds. Salah jerseys must be flying out the door.

Grayditch

Grayditch wrote: »

Damn I was hoping it wouldn't be that expensive. Also looks fairly unforgiving for someone like me who likes a beer or... nine.

The mannequin isn't even forgiven.

Wouldn't wear that cutting the grass personally..... as mentioned it's s pity one without sponsors isn't available.

Turtyturd

murpho999 wrote: »

I think you can pay in sterling works out a lot cheaper. Especially if you have a revolut card

Yeah...add in the 10% discount with a members card and it's not too bad.

Would be much nicer with a bit of red on the stripes or collar or the gold crest from the home top, but it's a damn nice top.

Osmosis Jones

Don't really understand the significance of all black, very nice jersey all the same. No idea why they've included the sponsor, it's barely visible as is but it'd be infinitely nicer if they removed it, not like they really care considering it's sold out already.

Gbear

Augeo wrote: »

Surely repeated defensive errors by individuals & the narrative that Liverpool can't defend are one and the same issue?

Not making mistakes is key to good defending.

This seems to be why people are struggling with this - both our defenders and fans trying to understand what the **** is going on.

The key to good defending isn't never making mistakes. It's having a system that covers for the individual mistakes of your defenders.
Or, perhaps, at it's most compact, it's making each individual's job so easy that they almost can't make mistakes.

We saw an example of this failure on Saturday.

Matip get's pinned by Wood and is in a position where he can't do anything about him short of fouling him.
Wood could have then turned Matip and had a 1v1 with the keeper.

Instead, Klavan helps across to at worst, hold Wood at bay and force him to pass the ball or at least do some ludicrous skill to beat two men that are touch tight - lower % stuff in terms of the ball ending up in the back of the net.

However, that's it. That's our defence done. So Arfield can just stroll in and boot it into an empty corner of the net at his leisure, because they're nobody else covering Klavan's space.

Ok, there's another failure in that Can spots Arfield but doesn't track him, but if you have a coherent defensive system, you're not beholden to one player knocking off to leave a 20ft gap through the center of your defence.

Our defence routinely has a single point of failure. That's a massive issue if it has to actually deal with anything.
A solid defence has multiple levels of redundancy built into it.

A proper defence is a suit of armour. There's some gaps but you have to work around them carefully to get at them and if you strike at a point where 1 plate ends, there's another overlapping plate to keep the sword out.

Our defence is more like a shield. A really tiny shield. And we're bollocks naked behind it. So once they get past that shield, we get stabbed in the tits.

Turtyturd

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Don't really understand the significance of all black, very nice jersey all the same. No idea why they've included the sponsor, it's barely visible as is but it'd be infinitely nicer if they removed it, not like they really care considering it's sold out already.

Yeah the all black is strange alright. Although I can see it being worn as a once off at the game around the Hillsborough Anniversary.

Knex*

Gbear wrote: »

This seems to be why people are struggling with this - both our defenders and fans trying to understand what the **** is going on.

The key to good defending isn't never making mistakes. It's having a system that covers for the individual mistakes of your defenders.
Or, perhaps, at it's most compact, it's making each individual's job so easy that they almost can't make mistakes.

We saw an example of this failure on Saturday.

Matip get's pinned by Wood and is in a position where he can't do anything about him short of fouling him.
Wood could have then turned Matip and had a 1v1 with the keeper.

Instead, Klavan helps across to at worst, hold Wood at bay and force him to pass the ball or at least do some ludicrous skill to beat two men that are touch tight - lower % stuff in terms of the ball ending up in the back of the net.

However, that's it. That's our defence done. So Arfield can just stroll in and boot it into an empty corner of the net at his leisure, because they're nobody else covering Klavan's space.

Ok, there's another failure in that Can spots Arfield but doesn't track him, but if you have a coherent defensive system, you're not beholden to one player knocking off to leave a 20ft gap through the center of your defence.

Our defence routinely has a single point of failure. That's a massive issue if it has to actually deal with anything.
A solid defence has multiple levels of redundancy built into it.

A proper defence is a suit of armour. There's some gaps but you have to work around them carefully to get at them and if you strike at a point where 1 plate ends, there's another overlapping plate to keep the sword out.

Our defence is more like a shield. A really tiny shield. And we're bollocks naked behind it. So once they get past that shield, we get stabbed in the tits.

I agree with you, with regards to having a system that reduces mistakes and allows for a greater margin of error, but we had four individual errors in the short passage before their goal. That's an insane amount for about 5 seconds of football, and one that not many teams or systems can recover from.

TAA, Matip, Klavan and Can all made mistakes or failed to act in a manner that you would have to expect from a player in their position. 36% of our team basically malfunctioned at a critical time. Our attacking system is not really at fault here, imo.

Also, Burnley's other chances came from set pieces. Overall they barely had a sniff. We dominated the game because of our setup. Its hard then for me to blame Klopps style for the dropped points on Saturday.

On this particular occasion, I think the players have to take full responsibility.

corwill

Knex. wrote: »

I agree with you, with regards to having a system that reduces mistakes and allows for a greater margin of error, but we had four individual errors in the short passage before their goal. That's an insane amount for about 5 seconds of football, and one that not many teams or systems can recover from.

TAA, Matip, Klavan and Can all made mistakes or failed to act in a manner that you would have to expect from a player in their position. 36% of our team basically malfunctioned at a critical time. Our attacking system is not really at fault here, imo.

Also, Burnley's other chances came from set pieces. Overall they barely had a sniff. We dominated the game because of our setup. Its hard then for me to blame Klopps style for the dropped points on Saturday.

On this particular occasion, I think the players have to take full responsibility.

The thought has occurred to me over the last few games that our back four are not being coached as though they're the last line of defence, but rather as the first line of attack, who just so happen to be the ones closest to goal.

Agent Coulson

corwill wrote: »

The thought has occurred to me over the last few games that our back four are not being coached as though they're the last line of defence, but rather as the first line of attack, who just so happen to be the ones closest to goal.

That's pretty much it I think.


Moreno gets slaughtered but he isn't doing anything the manager doesn't tell him to do he is an attacking outlet first under Klopp and a defender 4th or 5th.

The same goes all the other players who play fullback their primary job is attack.


I can't remember off the top of my head which game it was last season but in the last few minutes the two most forward players were our CB's one crossing it into the box from the byline to the other one who was on the penalty spot that is Klopp idea of football and it's glorious to watch when we nail it.


Our first line of attack is our defence and our first line of defence is Fun Bobby.

Knex*

corwill wrote: »

The thought has occurred to me over the last few games that our back four are not being coached as though they're the last line of defence, but rather as the first line of attack, who just so happen to be the ones closest to goal.

Yeah, I'd agree. It would explain them looking exposed, uncomfortable and lacking confidence when put in those defensive scenarios.

Knex*

Agent Coulson wrote: »

That's pretty much it I think.


Moreno gets slaughtered but he isn't doing anything the manager doesn't tell him to do he is an attacking outlet first under Klopp and a defender 4th or 5th.

The same goes all the other players who play fullback their primary job is attack.


I can't remember off the top of my head which game it was last season but in the last few minutes the two most forward players were our CB's one crossing it into the box from the byline to the other one who was on the penalty spot that is Klopp idea of football and it's glorious to watch when we nail it.


Our first line of attack is our defence and our first line of defence is Fun Bobby.

Only thought of that the other day as well. It was against Watford, the one where Can scored the bicycle kick.

I remember having this to say about it.

Knex.

Knex. wrote: »

.....

TAA, Matip, Klavan and Can all made mistakes or failed to act in a manner that you would have to expect from a player in their position. 36% of our team basically malfunctioned at a critical time. Our attacking system is not really at fault here, imo.

Also, Burnley's other chances came from set pieces. Overall they barely had a sniff. We dominated the game because of our setup. Its hard then for me to blame Klopps style for the dropped points on Saturday

On this particular occasion, I think the players have to take full responsibility.

3 of our back 4 making mistakes is perhaps indicative that they aren't comfortable in their roles or are not sure what to do / where they should be.... something that coaching should/could address.

corwill wrote: »

The thought has occurred to me over the last few games that our back four are not being coached as though they're the last line of defence, but rather as the first line of attack, who just so happen to be the ones closest to goal.

The full backs are largely absent with leave defensively. The CBs do get up the pitch too, very frequently.

Gbear

Knex. wrote: »

I agree with you, with regards to having a system that reduces mistakes and allows for a greater margin of error, but we had four individual errors in the short passage before their goal. That's an insane amount for about 5 seconds of football, and one that not many teams or systems can recover from.

TAA, Matip, Klavan and Can all made mistakes or failed to act in a manner that you would have to expect from a player in their position. 36% of our team basically malfunctioned at a critical time. Our attacking system is not really at fault here, imo.

We can quibble over what constitutes a mistake but I think what happens until Arfield gets the ball looks fine. It's not great, and we're not coming away with the ball, but we're not really in danger.
I mean, we're seemingly always in danger, but the situation from there isn't a crisis.

You can compare how Burnley dealt with men getting beaten by whatever method, be it brilliance or through their own **** up, and how we do.
How many defenders are having to be actually beaten to get to a dangerous situation?
My line of "1 point of failure" is perhaps an exaggeration, but if you're going for 2 or 3 points of failure when the opposition have 9 or 10 it amounts to the same thing.

Theirs is perhaps the most stark contrast to ours, but it makes the comparison easier.
Coutinho beat multiple men on multiple occasions but even ignoring his wild shooting, the shots he was left with weren't high percentage. The bigger crime was that he was taking them on at all rather than missing them, because the defence hadn't been breached at that point.

Our goal itself didn't come from a failure in that defence. It came when they didn't have it set at all.
It looked a bit like a goal we might concede.

With ours, they don't actually have to beat anyone, but if Can is doing his job, or if Wood has to get past Matip and/or Klavan, it's 1 or 2 at most.

Ultimately there's just a big ****ing hole in the middle of the box for them to stroll into.
All they had to do was acquire possession in an area where it'd drag our CBs over a little bit.

Another element is that Burnley are playing that game with the whole thing in front of them.
It's a much harder job defending when you need to be aware of everything around you and not just a 90deg cone in front of you, when you've 5 covering players within 15ft rather than 1, and, of course, when you're being pushed relentlessly to use the ball rather than boot it away.

Something that Hendo has gotten stick for and Can did as well because it led to one of Sevilla's goals is this so called "****ting out of tackles".
This seems like a clear tactic Klopp is pushing and we see the positive things that can happen, usually against Arsenal, when it goes right: the players comes out of a tackle on his feet, set and ready to play, with the whole of the opposition going the wrong direction.

There's no getting away from the fact that there are individual mistakes, of course, but I think there's a bit of a vicious cycle at play. The harder it is to defend, the more nervous we become, the more mistakes we make and, with the system, nearly every mistake is punished and nearly every good bit of attacking play from our opponents yields fruit.

Also, Burnley's other chances came from set pieces. Overall they barely had a sniff. We dominated the game because of our setup. Its hard then for me to blame Klopps style for the dropped points on Saturday.

On this particular occasion, I think the players have to take full responsibility.

Well one thing is that I don't think they showed a huge amount of ambition (naturally). That contributed.

It's not even so much blame. It's just the nature of the beast. We play on a knife edge under Klopp and it requires total excellence from those employing it to pull it off, at least until we're far enough ahead for the game to be more or less dead.

We could play more consevatively, but all I think you'd see with this side is at best a narrower range of results but a failure to hit the heights that it's capable of playing this way.
Maybe a few better results against worse teams and a few worse against better teams.

I think what Klopp's aspiration is, is that playing this way we can punch above our weight.
We can't win conventionally. We don't have the talent. Maybe 1-3 of our starting 11 are good enough to get into any of the other top 6 teams.
So we're doing it the wacky Klopp way instead.

Preliminary results are promising, despite the setbacks.

SuperTortoise

There is one consistency with almost all of the goals we concede, our players get drawn towards the ball leaving space behind.

Seriously, go watch a few of them back, as soon as a ball pops up or takes some sort of flick/rebound you'll see all of our lads drawn to it like a fly to ****e.

mosstin

Personally, I think the lads just started to get sick of Linda's tweets.

~Rebel~

Hope our team is picked accordingly against Leicester. We've always had serious trouble against their pace in attack... if ever there was a game that Gomez should start at CB, this is it.

Osmosis Jones

Woodburn and Ings not involved at all in the u23s game so looks like they'll be getting call ups. Klopp has already confirmed that Ox, Grujic, and Ward will start.