Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2017/2018

dogbert27

ElTel wrote: »

I'll concede that we have "strengthened" our squad but not with Klopp signings.
A left-footed LB and a speedy attacking winger were necessary signings and Solanke is a moneyball prospect. These were all probably picked by the committee. I'd argue, with Lucas gone, that a DM is now necessary.

As Harry said faith in Klopp will be needed this year. I can understand the VVD only stance for CB, but a few midfielders are needed even assuming Klopp will use the fringe players.

As I said previously I've no clue how the transfer committee and Klopp are targeting players but I'd be stunned if the DM "hole" is not addressed before the window closes.

Not the manager versus committee again!

Turtyturd

livinginkorea wrote: »

I agree with this assessment and it is possible that this season will prepare the foundation for Keita and co. coming next season. Maybe that is what Klopp is planning. He really doesn't do short term, which does frustrate some of us naturally with the lack of players coming in, but he is a patient guy for sure.

Hopefully the majority of fans have a bit of cop on and the patience to go along with this, and those who think they are entitled to a certain amount of signings are the minority. He's taken us two steps forward if we stand still this season or fall away a little bit it's not the end of the world.

Harry Palmr

dogbert27 wrote: »

Not the manager versus committee again!

There is no committee though, that was put to bed when Klopp got onboard. Now Michael Edwards is filling the role that Michael Zorc has at BVB, Klopp discusses his targets for particular roles with Zorc, his scouts go a-scouting and Zorc with Klopp would designate X as their target. Of course the big difference is that Zorc through circumstance had to be very good at spotting the right player who was at a minor/moderate club in a lesser or somewhat distant league. Liverpool by comparison have loads more money so the targets have been different that said an eye for a potential bargain clearly hasn't been closed with Robertson, Solanke, Grujic and Matip as obvious examples. Edwards is big into the analytics's like Zorc having been the number cruncher at Pompey during their rise and Spurs under Redknapp. It was this that Rodgers seemed to have a hard time with but Klopp is a product of this way of thinking himself - namely his success with zero-budget Mainz.

brevity

Turtyturd wrote: »

Hopefully the majority of fans have a bit of cop on and the patience to go along with this, and those who think they are entitled to a certain amount of signings are the minority. He's taken us two steps forward if we stand still this season or fall away a little bit it's not the end of the world.

I think people have a certain expectation to push on. Getting to somewhere is one thing and staying there is another. The squad isn't good enough - players should have been bought to keep Liverpool competitive.

redzerdrog

Turtyturd wrote: »

Hopefully the majority of fans have a bit of cop on and the patience to go along with this, and those who think they are entitled to a certain amount of signings are the minority. He's taken us two steps forward if we stand still this season or fall away a little bit it's not the end of the world.

Consolidate top 4, last 16 of champions league and a good run in one of the cups and it is a great season.

There an awful lot of needless panic going on, we have our best manager since Rafa and should appreciate that rather than the constant moaning and whinging about what ifs. Yes the summer hasn't been ideal in missing out onow vvd and kieta. But we have improved some areas Salah, Robertson and even Solanke looks a good squad option. We would all love a CB and CM but they must be the right players and none of the bull**** power struggles we seen in the past of players signed and then never given a chance.

Mr.H

ElTel wrote:

I'll concede that we have "strengthened" our squad but not with Klopp signings. A left-footed LB and a speedy attacking winger were necessary signings and Solanke is a moneyball prospect. These were all probably picked by the committee. I'd argue, with Lucas gone, that a DM is now necessary.

I was with you until you said moneyball.

How on earth is Solanke a moneyball signing?

Have you seen the movie? Do you know what moneyball is? It's about stats. It's nothing to do with young free agents. Actually Matip would be closer to a moneyball signing than solanke

Irishmale0399

Harry Palmr wrote: »

There is no committee though, that was put to bed when Klopp got onboard. Now Michael Edwards is filling the role that Michael Zorc has at BVB, Klopp discusses his targets for particular roles with Zorc, his scouts go a-scouting and Zorc with Klopp would designate X as their target. Of course the big difference is that Zorc through circumstance had to be very good at spotting the right player who was at a minor/moderate club in a lesser or somewhat distant league. Liverpool by comparison have loads more money so the targets have been different that said an eye for a potential bargain clearly hasn't been closed with Robertson, Solanke, Grujic and Matip as obvious examples. Edwards is big into the analytics's like Zorc having been the number cruncher at Pompey during their rise and Spurs under Redknapp. It was this that Rodgers seemed to have a hard time with but Klopp is a product of this way of thinking himself - namely his success with zero-budget Mainz.

Affraid that that was never the case at Dortmund. Zorc is only responsible for the contract side of things, dealing with players reps and getting transfers over the line.. Scouting in Dortmund was done by and is still done by Sven Mislintat and his team together with Lars Ricken who heads the youth department of the club. They approached Klopp and Buvac and only when the OK was given did Zorc/ and later Watzke start to get involved. Bayern tried to get Sven Mislintat last month as he is very highly respected within the German game.

As I see it Edwards is doing the Zorc job with Peter Krawietz and Pepijn Lijnders assisting him to form a committee on the playing side if you wish to call it that. I would imagine Barry Hunt is doing the Mislintat job at Liverpool and identifiying talent outside the club with his network of scouts and is then handing it over to the other 3 to pass onto Klopp and co.

klose

jasonb wrote: »

Well, if James Pearce is ITK, then I'm resigned to the fact that we won't be buying anyone else this window. Which is very disappointing. I do think we have improved the squad with who we've bought, but we haven't improved it enough. As someone said earlier, it's frustrating, 'cos we could be good this year, and not getting a couple of more players (just a couple, not lots) will restrict how good we will be I fear.

I'm also not sure about this whole 'is it FSG's or Klopp's fault' argument? I haven't read/seen any signs of a fallout between them, which to me means that they're both (FSG and Klopp) following the same strategy, and they're effectively the same entity, the club, not two different factions (Klopp or FSG). Key targets have been identified, money was made available, for different reasons we haven't got them, and there doesn't seem to be backup targets that have been identified. If that's the strategy, then in my opinion it's the club's strategy, not Klopp's, not FSG's, but the club's, and the club is to blame if the strategy fails...

He's not ITK he's the Liverpool echos main guy to report on all things Liverpool. Since klopp has come in it seems it's all water tight regarding news from the club, he seems pretty much a mouth piece for the club and is extremely quick to deny player links. Before klopp you would see plenty of targets etc mentioned but nowadays it's the same stuff. He has been reporting the van dijk and keita stuff all summer it's must be driving him mad reporting the same stuff.
The transfer window is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me but this summer is boring as hell waiting about for 10:30 press releases to see the same story as a saw back in may.

sword1

klose wrote: »

He's not ITK he's the Liverpool echos main guy to report on all things Liverpool. Since klopp has come in it seems it's all water tight regarding news from the club, he seems pretty much a mouth piece for the club and is extremely quick to deny player links. Before klopp you would see plenty of targets etc mentioned but nowadays it's the same stuff. He has been reporting the van dijk and keita stuff all summer it's must be driving him mad reporting the same stuff.
The transfer window is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me but this summer is boring as hell waiting about for 10:30 press releases to see the same story as a saw back in may.

Surely having an inside track/info on the club is an itk

klose

sword1 wrote: »

Surely having an inside track/info on the club is an itk

I'd have journos and itks separate myself but I do take your point. I think this summer is putting itks in the bin anyways regards reliability.

Gbear

Mr.H wrote: »

Kieta is available next summer and VVD is available (but not in this window). We can still get them if we dont spend waste our money

I see absolutely no reason why getting Van Dijk will be any easier next year.
THe issue is that Southampton are point blank refusing to sell to us.

We had the temerity to give them way more money than a few of their players were worth and they've gotten the hump with us for some reason.

The best thing that could happen now is that Chelsea sign Van Dijk tomorrow and we look elsewhere.

We're not getting him unless there's a dramatic U-turn from Southampton in the next 10 days.

brevity wrote: »

I suppose it all boils down to what people's expectations are are whether they think the squad can meet them.

At the current state, I think Liverpool will finish 5th or 6th in the league. The squad is too thin in too many areas and the midfield and defence aren't good enough.

We're better than we were last year and I don't think you can argue that 76 pts flattered us.

The league doesn't really get better every season. It seems that way at the start because teams spend money and maybe the gap closes a bit every now and again, but a not particularly good Chelsea team got 93 pts last season so I'm not really sold on the overall quality of the league.

Assuming that's the way it is and we get in and around the same pts again or even better, break 80, then it's going to be tough for whoever we're competing with to catch us.

Only 3 of the last 10 leagues have had 3 teams on 80+ and I can't imagine there has ever been four, nevermind 5.

If ever there was a time for it to happen, this would be it, given how top-heavy the league seems, but so much has to go right for that many teams to all have good seasons.

Knex. wrote: »

So no Draxler or attacking player to be signed, and no CB to be signed other than VVD. Only interest outside of VVD is in perhaps bringing in a CM.

I think Klopp is mental if he thinks that is acceptable, tbh. I mean, I understood it last January when he felt the right players weren't available. But we can't keep just targeting one or two players and then remaining standstill if they don't come through.

The mad thing is that this squad could easily handle another CB as well as Van Dijk.

Even if they had another go with an experienced Klavan type signing for relatively little money it wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

mosstin

NET SPEND!!!

daithijjj

livinginkorea wrote: »

I agree with this assessment and it is possible that this season will prepare the foundation for Keita and co. coming next season. Maybe that is what Klopp is planning. He really doesn't do short term, which does frustrate some of us naturally with the lack of players coming in, but he is a patient guy for sure.

Maybe he is too patient? That defence of ours?

I dont think many people who would be of the FSG out persuasion are that bothered about VVD and Keita.

What i think people are more worried about is that the likes of Klavan/Moreno/Lovren and a few others could fairly easily be replaced with better, for far less than a supposed 120m and there seems to be literally no alternatives.

People are sceptical and i think its fair. We have spent no more on transfers this summer than we did 17 years ago.

Klopp has a net spend of about 23m. If the outcast was sold to Palace for that tomorrow the club would literally have invested nothing in the team Klopp's entire time here. Only reinvesting what has come in from sales.

Swapping bodies in and out of the squad is one thing, holding onto cash we know is there whilst not moving on the aforementioned players is entirely another.

Where to point blame could be described as foggy, yet some things Klopp has come out with lately are far too 'Wengeresque' for comfort.

Football is a pretty basic thing. We have a fair wedge to spend. If we didnt then Coutinho would have already gone imo. Yet we have mediocrity littering the whole defence apart from a pair of right backs and Matip.

This would be eligible for criticism at any point we have been supporters of the club. Not replacing poor players in the squad while having 120 odd million sitting somewhere wont ever be up for debate with a lot of people.

The day we just sit back and accept we have one or two targets and if they dont come then we wont look elsewhere is when you start to get left behind. Is there anyone at all who doesnt think we could spend 50 or 60m this year on another CB and LB (for arguments sake) and not improve ourselves?

Struggling to keep what you have got (Coutinho, possibly Can) is pseudo ambition.

J Mysterio

What's frustrating is that Keita looks to be real quality. Granted, many of us hadnt even heard of him 3 months ago, but he looks a gamechanger. Maybe we needed to offer just that little bit more and make a bold statement.

City spent £100M on Walker and Mendy alone.

Knex*

J Mysterio wrote: »

What's frustrating is that Keita looks to be real quality. Granted, many of us hadnt even heard of him 3 months ago, but he looks a gamechanger. Maybe we needed to offer just that little bit more and make a bold statement.

City spent £100M on Walker and Mendy alone.

How much is CL football worth, probably about 50m plus? If signing Keita gets you 20% closer to achieving CL football next year, at a minimum, then it's surely worth going back in with a bid of £80m.

Yeah, its mad money, but it seems mad money is what it'll take to sign him. If this is one of the few guys Klopp is comfortable with pulling the trigger on, then I do hope FSG go put another bid in.

ElTel

Mr.H wrote: »

I was with you until you said moneyball.

How on earth is Solanke a moneyball signing?

Cheap and will get us goals/points as an impact sub against stubborn defences which fits the moneyball strategy but I just meant he's a low risk signing who could be moved on for a profit.

Have you seen the movie? Do you know what moneyball is? It's about stats. It's nothing to do with young free agents. Actually Matip would be closer to a moneyball signing than solanke

Good movie. Moneyball tries to maximize your success given certain constraints using statistics so I'd hope all our signings are to some degree "moneyball" signings.

J Mysterio

Pickford straight in at no.1 for Everton V City tonight. Will be watching him closely. I think he will be a great keeper and a shrewd buy by Koeman, who has made a decent array of signings this summer.

J Mysterio

Knex. wrote: »

How much is CL football worth, probably about 50m plus? If signing Keita gets you 20% closer to achieving CL football next year, at a minimum, then it's surely worth going back in with a bid of £80m.

Yeah, its mad money, but it seems mad money is what it'll take to sign him. If this is one of the few guys Klopp is comfortable with pulling the trigger on, then I do hope FSG go put another bid in.

Give then £100M. Done, signed.

Mr.H

Knex. wrote:

Yeah, its mad money, but it seems mad money is what it'll take to sign him. If this is one of the few guys Klopp is comfortable with pulling the trigger on, then I do hope FSG go put another bid in.

I hate this rubbish though.

At any other team we say "I hope (insert managers name) puts in a bid" but at Liverpool we day "I hope FSG puts in a bid".....

Why are you blaming/giving credit to the owners for signings when it is clear these are klopp targets

Irishmale0399

J Mysterio wrote: »

What's frustrating is that Keita looks to be real quality. Granted, many of us hadnt even heard of him 3 months ago, but he looks a gamechanger. Maybe we needed to offer just that little bit more and make a bold statement.

City spent £100M on Walker and Mendy alone.

Why cant people accept that RB Leipzig are and were not willing to sell him. Liverpool could have offered the club silver and Red Bulls owner still wouldnt sell as he nor any of his clubs need the money. He could sit at the table and offer FSG the money to buy the club and turn it into RB Liverpool instead of entering negociations to sell his star player.

For a deal to happen you have to have a buyer and a seller and in Keitas case there was only a buyer.

I do however expect him to sign maybe in Jan or latest next summer.

J Mysterio

J Mysterio wrote: »

What's frustrating is that Keita looks to be real quality. Granted, many of us hadnt even heard of him 3 months ago, but he looks a gamechanger. Maybe we needed to offer just that little bit more and make a bold statement.

City spent £100M on Walker and Mendy alone.

I'd love to know how much these transfers go down behind the scenes.

I'd imagine both parties must have an idea what fee will actually seal a deal.

Agent Coulson

Reports coming out Brazil that Coutinho felt pressured into handing in the transfer request by his agent and he never had the intention of going on strike.


The mending of fences begins.

J Mysterio

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Why cant people accept that RB Leipzig are and were not willing to sell him. Liverpool could have offered the club silver and Red Bulls owner still wouldnt sell as he nor any of his clubs need the money. He could sit at the table and offer FSG the money to buy the club and turn it into RB Liverpool instead of entering negociations to sell his star player.

For a deal to happen you have to have a buyer and a seller and in Keitas case there was only a buyer.

I do however expect him to sign maybe in Jan or latest next summer.

RB were weighing up the cost/ benefit of selling him now for a lot or selling him next year for less but with him contributing this season.

I think we were getting close to the figure they would have taken. It was said there was disagreements at RB board level on it. If anything is a business, it is RB.

rob316

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Reports coming out Brazil that Coutinho felt pressured into handing in the transfer request by his agent and he never had the intention of going on strike.


The mending of fences begins.

Look at who his agent is I wouldn't be surprised. Remember the saga Man City had with Tevez? He refused to return to England and eventually forced his way out.

Irishmale0399

J Mysterio wrote: »

RB were weighing up the cost/ benefit of selling him now for a lot or selling him next year for less but with him contributing this season.

I think we were getting close to the figure they would have taken. It was said there was disagreements at RB board level on it. If anything is a business, it is RB.

At no point were RB thinking of selling him. They came out very early and said he wasnt for sale. They looked at the figures involved and simpily said...with him we have a better chance in the CL....therefore more money.

We would never have reached a price to force them to sell once the owner said no for the simple reason...the club dont need the money. RB Leipzig is not a business....its a hobby and marketing tool for one of the worlds leading energy drinks companies. The owner spends money on sports and hobbies for fun not for profit.

J Mysterio

I dont forsee Leipzig doing particularly well in the CL. That said, i'm not massively optimistic at our chances either. We really blew it this window.

sword1

Let's start a boycott of redbull by Liverpool's fans, won't make any odds to me as I don't drink it

~Rebel~

rob316 wrote: »

I cant understand it, the CB and CM situation is actually weaker with the sale of Lucas. That squad broke down by January last year with only the domestic competitions to contend with, it is ****ed with Europe and outside of the front 3 and Coutinho the quality is nowhere near good enough for Europe.

Is this really Klopp's decision or FSG's?

Absolutely Klopps. He did the same last year with LB. I don't think anyone could argue that there wasn't the money there for at least a backup option at LB, but no one came in, instead playing with Milner as pretty much the only option for the whole season.

Klopp clearly has a policy of a perfect fit, or nothing. I disagree with it, I still think he was foolish to not at least provide cover at LB even though it worked out ok. Bu that's his way, and he'll live and die by it. Really can't see FSG having anything to do with that.

Exactly the same now, we could probably get decent CB cover for a fraction of what we're willing to spend on VVD, but he doesn't want that. He again wants what he sees as the prefect solution, or nothing. It's the one area I'm especially worried about - i'd like Keita, but all in all, I think CM is ok. CB I think we're on very thin ice with. Relying on luck with injuries.

ricero wrote: »

Club made a right mess of the van dijk deal and i reckon Klopp is still furious and this is why he wants them to rectify it and sign him.

"Them"? Pretty much whatever way you look at it, the 'mess up' WAS Klopp. He got caught publicly tapping up a player. I don't even have a problem with that, it's part of the game now, but the only rule is, don't get caught. he got caught. You win some, you lose some. Hopefully with new owners, and a new manager since we last bid, there's some chance of a late deal.

ERG89

Knex. wrote:

Snippets from James Pearce:

What an utterly depressing but unsurprising transfer update.

54and56

murpho999 wrote: »

Putting bids in and not getting a deal over the line is not a success in my eyes.

Why won't Southampton sell us VVD? Because FSG's people made a mess of the whole deal.

I'm willing to wait until the transfer window closes but it's possible that we'll another net spend profit.
As things stand we've let more players go than have come in when at end of last season we all said we needed more squad depth.

Are you Ricero in disguise??

Agent Coulson

Are people just on the wind up blaming FSG for Klopp getting caught tapping up VVD or do they think John W actually rang Southampton and told them Klopp was doing it.


And that John W told Red Bull look we are publicly going to offer you £66m for Keita but please don't take it we just want to make it look like we are trying to buy players.

Harry Palmr

I bet it was Ian Ayre, all butter fingers on speed dial while doing a ton.

"Coutinho fires agent" story within a week (assuming CL qualification)

Turtyturd

Reading on here it's like some posters struggle through the actual football during the season just so they can get to the transfer window. Then have a little cry when it doesn't follow the path they envisioned, no matter how out of line it was with the clubs'.

Knex*

Mr.H wrote: »

I hate this rubbish though.

At any other team we say "I hope (insert managers name) puts in a bid" but at Liverpool we day "I hope FSG puts in a bid".....

Why are you blaming/giving credit to the owners for signings when it is clear these are klopp targets

Klopp's targets, FSG's money.

J Mysterio

Turtyturd wrote: »

Reading on here it's like some posters struggle through the actual football during the season just so they can get to the transfer window. Then have a little cry when it doesn't follow the path they envisioned, no matter how out of line it was with the clubs'.

It's about the growth and success of the club. This window seemed to be a pivotal moment in that we had momentum with a renowned manager, CL football and money.

I don't want to be overly negative, but i'm not happy. Feels like a real missed opportunity.

Mr.H

Knex. wrote: »

Klopp's targets, FSG's money.

The clubs money!! Thats the difference. We are only using funds we generate. FSG have yet to take money from us that they have not earned.

Klopp's team are the ones making offers. Not FSG

NukaCola

The CB situation is borderline frightening. I'm happy to let Klopp do his thing, I am certainly not crying for signing's but CB looks like a disaster waiting to happen. We absolutely need a CB of a decent quality. I think anyone making that point is spot on.

Irishmale0399

Mr.H wrote: »

The clubs money!! Thats the difference. We are only using funds we generate. FSG have yet to take money from us that they have not earned.

Klopp's team are teh ones making offers. Not FSG

Who owns the club????

Last I heard it was FSG...as a result it is their money that the club generate. Add to that the loans they have given the club....debts, main stand work....they would be well within their rights to take money if they wanted to.

Klopp and his team are employees of Liverpool and FSG and you bet your ass on it that any money spent must get the OK from FSG.

Turtyturd

J Mysterio wrote: »

It's about the growth and success of the club. This window seemed to be a pivotal moment in that we had momentum with a renowned manager, CL football and money.

I don't want to be overly negative, but i'm not happy. Feels like a real missed opportunity.

I do understand that...although if we got nobody else this summer and Klopp gets Keita and Van Dijk next summer I'd take that over getting 'back ups' now. If he holds out and fails to get them next season, or bring in anyone else he identifies then he can be criticised.

The squad isn't that bad imo. Defence is a mixed bag to say the least. A midfield of Can, Wijnaldum/Lallana and Coutinho has a really good balance and there is plenty of back up there with Henderson, Milner, Grujic and the younger players. The front three are as good as any in the league and with Solanke and Origi we have other options.

Mr.H

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

Who owns the club????

Last I heard it was FSG...as a result it is their money that the club generate. Add to that the loans they have given the club....debts, main stand work....they would be well within their rights to take money if they wanted to.

Klopp and his team are employees of Liverpool and FSG and you bet your ass on it that any money spent must get the OK from FSG.

I think your missing the point.

Firstly I back FSG 100%. I agree with their policy of letting the club be self sufficient. I stated that they allow the club to use funds that the club generates. They are not using their own personal funds to sign players nor should they.

I am saying that all transfers made right now are the work of one man and one man alone. Klopp. We will not sign players that he doesnt want and that is a good way to operate. If he wanst someone we try to get them. If he doesnt, we dont.

Irishmale0399

Mr.H wrote: »

I think your missing the point.

Firstly I back FSG 100%. I agree with their policy of letting the club be self sufficient. I stated that they allow the club to use funds that the club generates. They are not using their own personal funds to sign players nor should they.

I am saying that all transfers made right now are the work of one man and one man alone. Klopp. We will not sign players that he doesnt want and that is a good way to operate. If he wanst someone we try to get them. If he doesnt, we dont.

OK i aggree with you there but we should not forget that FSG are financing other areas of the club with cheap loans to make it possible for Klopp to make those signings if he wishes.
This is something that a lot of fans here seem to forget and seem to think that as fans they can manage the club better. If that is the case why dont a few boards billionares step up, buy the club and pump their money in instead of complaining about the current owners.

Mr.H

To be honest this is not a bad team

Mr.H

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

OK i aggree with you there but we should not forget that FSG are financing other areas of the club with cheap loans to make it possible for Klopp to make those signings if he wishes.
This is something that a lot of fans here seem to forget and seem to think that as fans they can manage the club better. If that is the case why dont a few boards billionares step up, buy the club and pump their money in instead of complaining about the current owners.

I think you have mistook me I have been fighting on your side of the argument since about 4 o clock in this very thread.

Luckycharms_74

ricero wrote: »

Club made a right mess of the van dijk deal and i reckon Klopp is still furious and this is why he wants them to rectify it and sign him.

If not then whoever in the club leaked the news to the press needs to be handed their p45 come September 1st.


Such optimism from May has completely evaporated now. A few injuries and we are ****ed. Getting painful flashbacks of the summer of 2014 and our failures to kick on

It wasn't leaked by anyone at LFC. Its widely known that it was leaked to Southampton journos at the Daily Echo.
Southampton were furious they were not going to get their bidding war for their player thus "leaked" the tapping up & meeting with Klopp.

rob316

Mr.H wrote: »

To be honest this is not a bad team

Lallana for wijnaldum

Harry Palmr

TAA for Clyne.

BorneTobyWilde

_________Mig______

___Matip______Lovern___

Mane_______________Salah
_________Can__________

Lallana________Coutinho

___Firmino____Ings________

_______Sturridge__________

Kill em that way .

Harry Palmr

Ah yes the old 1-2-7 formation.

Mr.H

To be honest Id prefer Wjini instead of Lallana for now. He offers more guile defensively than Adam. Id be replacing Coutinho with Lallana if need be. The same way I would replace Hendo with Can. I know many dont see Can as a defensive mid but either is Jordan to be fair.

Irishmale0399

Mr.H wrote: »

I think you have mistook me I have been fighting on your side of the argument since about 4 o clock in this very thread.

A cold beer too many....:D:eek::D