Could the Government Seize Property

awec

the_syco wrote: »

The problem is that the vacant houses are not where the homeless want to live.

If you paying for a house, you buy where you can afford. If you're homeless, seemingly you can wait until you get a house in a nice area.

Well I am not sure it's that simple in all cases.

Certainly, someone from Dublin for example should be given a house anywhere within Dublin or the commuter belt and they shouldn't be able to pick and choose a specific place if there is nothing available there.

But plenty of these vacant houses are down the country and it seems counter intuitive to send a lot of people to places where they have no chance of getting employed and therefore no chance of getting themselves back on their feet and off the state's dime.

the_syco

awec wrote: »

Well I am not sure it's that simple in all cases.

Certainly, someone from Dublin for example should be given a house anywhere within Dublin or the commuter belt and they shouldn't be able to pick and choose a specific place if there is nothing available there.

But they do, and I'd wonder how much this contributes towards the number of homelessness?

awec wrote: »

But plenty of these vacant houses are down the country and it seems counter intuitive to send a lot of people to places where they have no chance of getting employed and therefore no chance of getting themselves back on their feet and off the state's dime.

For the long term unemployed of 10/20/more years, why not?

Uriel.

the_syco wrote: »

But they do, and I'd wonder how much this contributes towards the number of homelessness?


For the long term unemployed of 10/20/more years, why not?

Why though? Why can they pick? Are they not so bad off? If you need state support u should accept what's given to you (obviously providing it meets a minimum standard). There's been far too much molly coddlin for far too long. Take the basic and be happy with it or get yourself together at the first opportunity and strive for better.

davindub

Uriel. wrote: »

Why though? Why can they pick? Are they not so bad off? If you need state support u should except what's given to you (obviously providing it meets a minimum standard). There's been far too much molly coddlin for far too long. Take the basic and be happy with it or get yourself together at the first opportunity and strive for better.

Unfortunately some people are glad, others are entitled. I remember a girl on the radio before, she was living at home with her mother and her child, her comments were its not my mothers responsibility to house me, it is the councils.

the_syco

Uriel. wrote: »

Why though? Why can they pick?

Yes. They give their three area preferences, and if they don't like any of the houses, they goto the bottom of the housing list.

In the meantime, they may be in an hotel room. They'll play the game until they get a house near their parents, or some such.

The_Conductor

the_syco wrote: »

The problem is that the vacant houses are not where the homeless want to live.

If you paying for a house, you buy where you can afford. If you're homeless, seemingly you can wait until you get a house in a nice area.

This is it in a nutshell.
The vast preponderance of vacant properties (and I'd suggest a signficant proportion of them are not dilapidated by any means)- are simply in places that its damn hard to persuade people to live. I can think of whole blocks of apartments in the border counties- many of which are equipped to a high standard- which could be put to better use than some enterprising locals who use them to encourage stag/hen weekends (obviously Carrick-on-Shannon features high on this list- but its by no means on its own).

Local Authorities saw it as a badge of honor to have vast quantities of residential units built on their turf- and bent over backwards with planning and other regimes- to ensure as little impediment as possible was put in the path of any wanna-be developer.

The homeless issue- is predominantly a Dublin issue- over 90% of all homeless are in Dublin. Hell- a majority of homeless Cork and Galwegians- are in Dublin. I don't know why this is- but the homeless do seem to be attracted to Dublin, like a moth to a flame. This does not mean that Cork, Galway- even Laois, Carlow, Kilkenny and other non-traditional aeras- don't have a homeless issue/crisis- simply- that it is not on the same scale as it is in the capital.

The hard choices that politicians and others in Dublin need to sit down and crack heads over- such as residential dwelling densities and building height regulations- seem to be completely and utterly verbotten discussions/conversations.

The Dublin local authority areas- need to sit down together- and come up with a coordinated approach and sell it to central government.

Yes- we have 160,000 (or however many) vacant residential dwelling units around the country- however- the vast preponderance of them are quite simply where people don't want to live- this is the knux of the problem. Unlocking the 160,000 units- is all well and good- but unless the government decide to try and pull an Oliver Cromwell and declare the modern equivalent of 'To Hell or to Connaught'- its not a solution- its an inexperienced politician fumbling in the dark, latching onto a media headline- and running with it for everything its worth without any consideration for what the bigger picture actually is.

We need houses. Tick.
We need houses- where people want to and are willing to live.........
Just because you can tick the first box- does not mean the second issue magically goes away.
People are perfectly happy to make themselves homeless- rather than live outside their comfort zone- we have court cases about it pretty much every day of the week at this stage- increasingly the courts are backing the local authorities in the supports they are offering.

I'd love a nice 3 bed semi- in a reasonable area, with a nice garden for my kids, close by to schools and other facilities and amenities, and with my family supports (if I had them) and networks at close hand. So would anyone else. The bigger issue is an entitlement culture- where people who have to pay for things- compromise, and make a series of decisions based on rational choices. Those who don't have to pay- increasingly, assume that by kicking up a fuss- they don't have to compromise- they can get their forever home where they want it- and whatever else they want, handed to them on a platter.

We honestly need a coherent national debate. Personally- I think Gardaí, teachers and nurses- should be offered good standard council property in the areas they work in- over and above anyone else- and only when key frontline public sector personnel have been homed- should there be a push to offer accommodation in specific areas to other groups.

We have an obligation- both moral and legal- to house our homeless and take care of those worse off than us in society. It is not and should not be a security net though- to the extent that availing of it- becomes the all-encompassing aim of people- which is where we are at right here, right now.

The issue- as always- is supply. We need supply- but pointing at 160,000 units nationally- and imagining that presto- we bring them into habitable standard and our problems are solved- is myopic in the extreme.

Someone needs to sit down with the Minister- and slowly sketch out the bigger picture for him.

etselbbuns

DublinCityCouncil threatened to CPO 21 vacant units last year if they were not rented/sold, which resulted in all 21 being rented.

Government has now given a green light to all 31 Councils to use the same legislation that is used to CPO land for transport to reuse the 180k vacant units in the State

Graham

etselbbuns wrote: »

DublinCityCouncil threatened to CPO 21 vacant units last year if they were not rented/sold, which resulted in all 21 being rented.

Government has now given a green light to all 31 Councils to use the same legislation that is used to CPO land for transport to reuse the 180k vacant units in the State

Any source estelbbuns, I'd be interested in looking at the background behind the units in Dublin and the encouragement from government to use CPO legislation.

um7y1h83ge06nx

The Sunday Independent has this as it's front page today, they reckon the government will move forward with CPOs.

This is a terrible erosion of property rights and evidence that FG is moving heavily to the left. We badly need a right wing party to balance the political climate in this country, otherwise it's merely a case of what shade of red you want to elect.

etselbbuns

Graham wrote: »

Any source estelbbuns, I'd be interested in looking at the background behind the units in Dublin and the encouragement from government to use CPO legislation.

Yep, the Sindo. It'll be online shortly

Arcade_Tryer

The_Conductor wrote: »

The issue- as always- is supply. We need supply- but pointing at 160,000 units nationally- and imagining that presto- we bring them into habitable standard and our problems are solved- is myopic in the extreme
.

We need to find some way of moving the Ghost estates down the country to Dublin. Surely with today's technology and engineering capabilities it could be accomplished.

Mrs Shuttleworth

There will be legal challenges to this. It's entirely feasible that someone may partially use property but it wouldn't be occupied permanently by someone bearing a PPS number as their PPR and I suspect this is what the Government is trying to force.

There are knock on effects that infringe on other personal rights beyond constitutional property rights.

These proposals will also markedly contract bank lending for all purchasers.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Hopefully the EU will get involved as it would interfere with free market economics. No Irish political party will speak out about this, it's suiting their left leaning ideals. Only possibility might be FF as this might impact mostly older people and they always have been smart to keep that demograph happy.

Mrs Shuttleworth

Ivory Grumpy Yardage wrote: »

Hopefully the EU will get involved as it would interfere with free market economics. No Irish political party will speak out about this, it's suiting their left leaning ideals. Only possibility might be FF as this might impact mostly older people and they always have been smart to keep that demograph happy.

Also what happens in the case where the mortgage is being met each month but the vacant property is in negative equity - if CPO proceedings are served and an order made and the market value paid presumably that leaves the owner in hoc to the bank or would the bank join in as a notice party and assist the owner in defending the proceedings? I can envisage 1000s of such scenarios.

Eric Cartman

awec wrote: »

Well I am not sure it's that simple in all cases.

Certainly, someone from Dublin for example should be given a house anywhere within Dublin or the commuter belt and they shouldn't be able to pick and choose a specific place if there is nothing available there.

But plenty of these vacant houses are down the country and it seems counter intuitive to send a lot of people to places where they have no chance of getting employed and therefore no chance of getting themselves back on their feet and off the state's dime.

People who work and need to be in dublin every day have had to move to haas, newbridge, ashbourne, sallins, drogheda etc… to afford a house.

Some of the 'homeless' in emergency accommodation aren't leaving until the government announce a plan to build thousands of detached 3 bed with garden front and back (big enough for a trampoline) that are 30 seconds from a school and an offo and also in dublin 2, 4, 6 or 6w.

Its never going to get fixed, theres just money to be made by the homeless industry and the hundreds of popup charities that have sprung into action in recent days.

When the crisis is all over and we're done with building houses again, there will still be empty houses, there will still be people sleeping on the streets and there will still be people turning down perfectly good social houses that already exist, in the vague hope that they can get something in a nice suburb with space for a trampoline.

byhookorbycrook

If you don't have a job, then you should go wherever the houses are, like the rest of those of us who work for a living.

Hollister11

Even if the Government could get 10,000 of the 18000 vacant house back into use a year for the next few years, that would really be a massive help.

AlmightyCushion

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Also what happens in the case where the mortgage is being met each month but the vacant property is in negative equity - if CPO proceedings are served and an order made and the market value paid presumably that leaves the owner in hoc to the bank or would the bank join in as a notice party and assist the owner in defending the proceedings? I can envisage 1000s of such scenarios.

In those cases, why wouldn't they be already renting out the house?

etselbbuns

The IrishTimes reports:

Louth Council Council has acquired 35 vacant houses by compulsory purchase over the past 15 months, has a further 30 in the pipeline,
and uses powers contained in the Housing Act 1996 to acquire non-derelict homes that are vacant, as part of the local authority’s obligation to provide housing.
Appeals go to An Bord Pleanala which usually holds a hearing within 6 weeks and gives a decision within a month. To date there have been 3 appeals, 2 of which have been won by the Council.

The_Conductor

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

In those cases, why wouldn't they be already renting out the house?

Occasional self-usage and/or emotional attachment of one type or another (such as it being located on family property etc)?

LuckyLloyd

So, 21 compulsory orders were issued in Dublin and it meant that 14 properties were rented privately and 7 properties leased to the Local Authority?

Excellent, start ramping up this process.

The_Conductor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, 21 compulsory orders were issued in Dublin and it meant that 14 properties were rented privately and 7 properties leased to the Local Authority?

Excellent, start ramping up this process.

The problem is there are very few of these properties in Dublin- the vast majority of vacant properties in Dublin (apparently almost 90% of all vacant property in Dublin city and county) belongs to one or another of the 4 local authorities.

I.e. in the context of Dublin- the local authorities themselves- are the holders of the majority of vacant property.

AlmightyCushion

The_Conductor wrote: »

Occasional self-usage and/or emotional attachment of one type or another (such as it being located on family property etc)?

Maybe in some cases but I can't imagine it's so common that there are 1,000s of them.

LuckyLloyd

The_Conductor wrote: »

The problem is there are very few of these properties in Dublin- the vast majority of vacant properties in Dublin (apparently almost 90% of all vacant property in Dublin city and county) belongs to one or another of the 4 local authorities.

I.e. in the context of Dublin- the local authorities themselves- are the holders of the majority of vacant property.

Then what's the panic or consternation over this?

The_Conductor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Then what's the panic or consternation over this?

The Minister has said there are potentially 180,000 dwelling nationally- which could fall under this scheme. That's the panic and consternation.

As for the Dublin based local authorities and their properties- somehow- they're just not featuring on anyone's radar.

Colonel Claptrap

Completely off topic, but I learned today that our housing minister comes from a famous family.

His brother is Killian Scott from Love/Hate, his father was a barrister in the Bertie tribunal, and his grandfather was the accountant who embezzled Gay Byrne's life savings.

LuckyLloyd

The_Conductor wrote: »

The Minister has said there are potentially 180,000 dwelling nationally- which could fall under this scheme. That's the panic and consternation.

As for the Dublin based local authorities and their properties- somehow- they're just not featuring on anyone's radar.

But if the CPOs issued create outcomes like those experienced in Dublin, what harm? You have a property lying idle during a housing crisis, you put it to work to retain the property. Everyone's a winner?

If any of the LAs are holding on to vacant properties, they should obviously be turned around also. But it seems like whataboutery to distract from the core discussion point.

Graham

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

But if the CPOs issued create outcomes like those experienced in Dublin, what harm?

Unsurprisingly there's a large proportion of the population (not just home owners) that have quite strong opinions about government seizing private property.

LuckyLloyd

Graham wrote: »

Unsurprisingly there's a large proportion of the population (not just home owners) that have quite strong opinions about government seizing private property.

It's not 'seizing', and our constitution does have language around the fact that private property rights are not absolute. Introducing an effective 'use it or sell it' caveat to private property rights during a housing crisis is only a good thing for our society.

Fred Swanson

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