Inside the Cockpit ITV

RedMen15

Anyone catch this on ITV last night?

nuckeythompson

Is it available online?

phonypony

Not a bad bit of entertainment, one you get over the usual over-dramatisation and inaccurate narrative. A good balance between cadets, type training and line training.

phonypony

nuckeythompson wrote: »

Is it available online?

Yeah, it's on the itv player.

martinsvi

phonypony wrote: »

Yeah, it's on the itv player.

is it not just for UK residents? I tried it just now, says video not available

Wanderer78

martinsvi wrote:

is it not just for UK residents? I tried it just now, says video not available

As far as I'm aware, you need to use a vpn or some other work around to use that player here

NUTLEY BOY

Who assigns a captain only landing designation to any particular airfield ? ICAO, the airfield operator or the aircraft operator ?

L1011

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Who assigns a captain only landing designation to any particular airfield ? ICAO, the airfield operator or the aircraft operator ?

Operator I'm pretty sure - there are airports (or specific runways at an airport in some cases) that are captain only for some airlines and not others.

CoisFharraige

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Who assigns a captain only landing designation to any particular airfield ? ICAO, the airfield operator or the aircraft operator ?

Airfields are often categorised for difficulty in terms of approaches, dividied into three categories. Cat A is for airfields where there are few threats, Dublin, Heathrow, any normal airfield. B for airfields which have some threats and difficulties which make them more challenging and thus require someone with more experience. Cat C is for airfields with quite a significant amount of threats and difficulties. A good example of a Cat C airfiled is Innsbruck with the notorious VOR/DME circle to land approach on 08.

Most airlines stipulate the Captain must be the operating pilot at Cat C airfields (operators dictate which is captain's only), and Captain's would worry about trusting someone else when it's their ''nuts on the chopping block'' at the end of the day if something goes wrong.

Avada

nuckeythompson wrote: »

Is it available online?

Episode 1 is on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6536JMmHts

NH2013

CoisFharraige wrote: »

Cat A is for airfields where there are few threats, Dublin, Heathrow, any normal airfield.

Just for the record, Dublin Airport is classed as a CAT B Airport by many operators such as BA and Lufthansa due to the wind induced turbulence caused by the Wicklow Mountains and "unique" ATC environment that make it slightly more challenging/non-standard than "any normal airfield".

basill

Class A in my operations manual. Presume it's the same in Ryanair so not so sure about many operators classing it as B.

Growler!!!

Category A airfield with my crowd too. But any ops from 16/34 are Capts only.

JCX BXC

What is Cork?

faoiarvok

NH2013 wrote: »

..."unique" ATC environment that make it slightly more challenging/non-standard than "any normal airfield".

Just curious, what makes Dublin unique from ATC perspective?

Lustrum

faoiarvok wrote: »

Just curious, what makes Dublin unique from ATC perspective?

I'd heard about this alright, for us Dublin is Cat A, but I'd heard some non-native english speaking airlines had classed it as B due to ATC instructions, particularly on the ground.

ATC shouldn't give you any more than 3 instructions at any one time, however in Dublin they have a habit of giving you quite convoluted taxi instructions, particularly after exiting the runway ie. "Airline xxx, taxi Bravos, Hotel 1, cross runway 34, Hotel 2, Link 4, Foxtrot inners to Stand 305L" - if you haven't been there before and have level 4 english that can be quite a lot to process.

Contrast that to Schipol where a normal instruction after vacating 18R is "taxi to stand D24" and that's it

martinsvi

Avada wrote: »

Episode 1 is on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6536JMmHts

cheers, no time to watch it this week, ripped an MP4 out of it before the copyright crowd wakes up

Avada

martinsvi wrote: »

cheers, no time to watch it this week, ripped an MP4 out of it before the copyright crowd wakes up

I find ITV and BBC stuff generally stays up on youtube. Fierce handy

Growler!!!

JCX BXC wrote: »

What is Cork?

Will depend on the operator and the type being operated. It was Class A in my previous crowd but some of the Dublin based lads would concider it Class B!

07/25 was Capt only for a long time then changed overnight so anyone could land on it. The other operators in ORK didn't have performance figures for 07/25 so couldn't use it.

SNN was Capt only if the wind was above a certain speed and from a direction coming over the Aerospace building on 24. My current Company have a warning about low level turb from the same direction.

faoiarvok wrote: »

Just curious, what makes Dublin unique from ATC perspective?

As Lustrum said it's fine if you've operated there before or are based there but the amount of information given in the taxi instruction was too much immediately after vacating the runway. I always wait to do the after landing checks until I've received the taxi instructions as it can be quite complex.

ED E

Thanks for the thread, didnt know this was on (This + Saving Lives at Sea = Win)

faoiarvok wrote: »

Just curious, what makes Dublin unique from ATC perspective?

The sweet tones of that female controllers voice (cant remember her name!). Could listen all day.

Ardennes1944

Interesting watch, thanks for sharing

vicwatson

What's with the air stewardess asking this pilot if he was a boobs or arse man??

b757

vicwatson wrote: »

What's with the air stewardess asking this pilot if he was a boobs or arse man??

Arse.. :pac:

Locker10a

vicwatson wrote: »

What's with the air stewardess asking this pilot if he was a boobs or arse man??

An unecessasy, forced and probably staged interaction. Pretty tacky, unnecessary and not representative of the average conversation on the flight deck with crew...it's generally much more boring, but professional, unless you're friendly with your colleague.

vicwatson

b757 wrote: »

Arse.. :pac:

Feck

Locker10a wrote: »

An unecessasy, forced and probably staged interaction. Pretty tacky, unnecessary and not representative of the average conversation on the flight deck with crew...it's generally much more boring, but professional, unless you're friendly with your colleague.

Was it a light in which they try to sell easyJet I wonder? Pardee pardee etc etc

martinsvi

I watched it last night, I was surprised how good it was - showing many aspects of the job and training. I guess from the trailer I was expecting something a bit more cheesy and entertainy

vicwatson

Part deux tonight 9 pm

weisses

Part 2 on Youtube also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WDWEJp_TnU

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

I watched it last night, I was surprised how good it was - showing many aspects of the job and training. I guess from the trailer I was expecting something a bit more cheesy and entertainy

Only got round to watching the first episode tonight but I thought the opposite to be honest. They seemed to be pushing a Daily Mail-esque "terrifying" angle by emphasising how young/inexperienced the cadets were. They also seemed to portray it as a profession for kids with rich parents as opposed to grafters who worked hard to get themselves into the cockpit. Didn't really like how some cadets were standing at the cockpit door with the camera phones out whilst another was flying circuits - that seemed rather unprofessional to me.

I thought the "boobs or arse" conversation between the cabin crew and first officer was quite inappropriate. I can't believe that was actually included in the show actually, all things considered.

I was surprised how easily the female pilot at the end lost her bearings and couldn't find the river. I thought that reflected quite poorly on her.

indeq

I'd imagine grafters would be the minority, no?

I read a study awhile back about rich peoples kids and they getting all the good jobs.

martinsvi

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

..They seemed to be pushing a Daily Mail-esque "terrifying" angle by emphasising how young/inexperienced the cadets were. They also seemed to portray it as a profession for kids with rich parents as opposed to grafters who worked hard to get themselves into the cockpit. .

but that's what easyJet does. Have you ever heard of a low hour modular 30 yo first officer getting a job with them? I haven't, not in the last 10 years at least. In that sense, I'm glad it's accurate - they could of pulled out a diversity card and trying to portray themselves in a better light, but they didn't..

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Didn't really like how some cadets were standing at the cockpit door with the camera phones out whilst another was flying circuits - that seemed rather unprofessional to me.

When/If I'll be doing my first type rating, I would love my course mates to tape it, take some snaps. It's a once in a life time thing, something that these lads have worked hard for, sure you would want someone to take a picture of you? It's a fantastic milestone in one's career.

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I was surprised how easily the female pilot at the end lost her bearings and couldn't find the river. I thought that reflected quite poorly on her.

now that's a complete BS to be honest, I was in very similar conditions recently, OVC at 1200, me at 1000ft, passing banks of FEW/SCT below me, random drizzle here and there, decided to go back. As I turned I was looking for a road that would take me home, yet I lost it and for a moment started following a wrong road. And that's me with some 150+ hours.. if this girl was on her first solo nav ex, you can reckon she's done about 25-35 hours. Out on her own for the first time, I think she did fantastic! No panic at all, cool head, talking to ATC, staying away from cloud, making her way back to the field. If anything, I would question the instructors decision sending out a solo student in deteriorating wx conditions, he was really lucky his student was bright!

if you think similar thing couldn't happen to you, you simply haven't flown enough in marginal VFR..

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

but that's what easyJet does. Have you ever heard of a low hour modular 30 yo first officer getting a job with them? I haven't, not in the last 10 years at least. In that sense, I'm glad it's accurate - they could of pulled out a diversity card and trying to portray themselves in a better light, but they didn't..

They hire a lot of pilots, I doubt you're keeping track of them all but I'm sure there are some modular pilots or at least pilots that have self funded their integrated training. If I recall correctly, it said the training partner for one of the pilots in Episode 1 was in his thirties. I'd have been more interested to have heard his story. For me, it gave the impression that rich parents were the only way in when it's not the case. However, by aligning themselves with partner schools like OAA and the cowboys at L3, who were quick to get on to social media advertising their schemes, it unfortunately probably is the only way for most.

martinsvi wrote: »

When/If I'll be doing my first type rating, I would love my course mates to tape it, take some snaps. It's a once in a life time thing, something that these lads have worked hard for, sure you would want someone to take a picture of you? It's a fantastic milestone in one's career.

To each their own. I think a quick picture or two by the captain whilst in flight would have sufficed rather than a couple of cadets gathering at the cockpit door with go pros whilst another is training. But then again I personally am quite opposed to the need for individuals to document almost every major or semi major aspect of their life, especially fresh pilots who constantly need to take selfies in the cockpit. There's quite a funny Instagram page lampooning pilots like that actually.

martinsvi wrote: »

now that's a complete BS to be honest, I was in very similar conditions recently, OVC at 1200, me at 1000ft, passing banks of FEW/SCT below me, random drizzle here and there, decided to go back. As I turned I was looking for a road that would take me home, yet I lost it and for a moment started following a wrong road. And that's me with some 150+ hours.. if this girl was on her first solo nav ex, you can reckon she's done about 25-35 hours. Out on her own for the first time, I think she did fantastic! No panic at all, cool head, talking to ATC, staying away from cloud, making her way back to the field. If anything, I would question the instructors decision sending out a solo student in deteriorating wx conditions, he was really lucky his student was bright!

if you think similar thing couldn't happen to you, you simply haven't flown enough in marginal VFR..

Following a wrong road is understandable since there's typically a number of them below you and depending on altitude may be difficult to distinguish one from another. A river on the other hand is a far more unique feature and having looked at Hamilton on Google maps, there's quite a distinct river from from south east of the airfield to north west which I assume is the river in question (there's another to the west). It shouldn't have been too difficult, upon encountering cloud, to descend and turn in the appropriate direction in order to intercept the river unless she was entirely in IFR conditions which she wasn't. Even when she found it, it said she wasn't sure if she was going in the right direction or even if she was still north of the river which I thought was poor. If she had the river in sight and a working compass it shouldn't have been too difficult to figure out.

I didn't say a similar thing couldn't happen to me, but if it did I'd admit that it was a poor reflection of me as a pilot.

martinsvi

sure enough they hire a lot of pilots, there are modular guys who change companies and start in easyJet as DFOs or DECs, however for the low hour cadets, it's partner schools/integrated programmes only, and the 95% of the populous are young lads under 23.. it is quite unusual for a 30+ year old to go to an integrated programme in general as it means leaving everything behind instantly. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare.

as for the poor girl, you're somewhat ignoring the fact, that at your first solo nav ex you're not yet qualified as a pilot, so any reflections on her skills are between herself and the instructor. Google satellite images are not good enough for you to assess what she was seeing outside of her window, if you have banks of cloud right and left you might as well not spot a mountain, not to mention a wee little river..

harr

Don't know about anyone else but I am a nervous flyer and this program has certainly not helped me in that regard..
.I want all the planes I travel in to be flown by captains who are late 40,s early 50,s with 20 years experience

(That last sentence was tongue in cheek by the way)

California Dreamer

Deaddonkey,

Genuinely I would like to know if you are a pilot, have personally been in this position or just the armchair critic that knows better than everyone else? I ask this because I feel you are being unfairly critical as you are looking at "google maps" to make your assumptions. Students would be using nav maps which give more detail but again we don't have all the information from these segments.

Meanwhile,

Firstly, I think we can all assume that there is some "made for tv" moments in the show. You can clearly see the nav screen in front of her. It's on, but she's not using it.

Any student pilot talking to ATC would inform them that they are a student pilot on a solo cross country. ATC are not the big bad wolf, and will always help a pilot in distress to the point of giving a heading to put them back on track. We don't hear that here so again we assume she did know where she was going.

I have been on the wrong end of a solo cross country and gotten lost. After troubleshooting things like direction, fuel etc you then look at the map for not just rivers but landmarks to guide you. If all else fails, ATC...help...I'm lost! They are not going to leave you up there panicking more and waiting till you run out of fuel!!

deaddonkey15

California Dreamer wrote: »

Deaddonkey,

Genuinely I would like to know if you are a pilot, have personally been in this position or just the armchair critic that knows better than everyone else? I ask this because I feel you are being unfairly critical as you are looking at "google maps" to make your assumptions. Students would be using nav maps which give more detail but again we don't have all the information from these segments.

Meanwhile,

Firstly, I think we can all assume that there is some "made for tv" moments in the show. You can clearly see the nav screen in front of her. It's on, but she's not using it.

Any student pilot talking to ATC would inform them that they are a student pilot on a solo cross country. ATC are not the big bad wolf, and will always help a pilot in distress to the point of giving a heading to put them back on track. We don't hear that here so again we assume she did know where she was going.

I have been on the wrong end of a solo cross country and gotten lost. After troubleshooting things like direction, fuel etc you then look at the map for not just rivers but landmarks to guide you. If all else fails, ATC...help...I'm lost! They are not going to leave you up there panicking more and waiting till you run out of fuel!!

What assumptions? I looked at Google maps to see how big the river was and its proximity to the airport. It's quite large and appears to be an ideal feature for VFR flight as it looks like following it south will set you up nicely to join final for 18 or left/right downwind for 36. If she was following a heading along a predefined track and keeping track of her position up until she encountered cloud, then it must have been either a left or right turn to intercept the river, descending as required to remain clear of cloud. I suppose my issue is not so much with failing to initially find it, but rather not knowing what direction she was going in or what side of it she was on when she actually did find it. As I said above if you are in sight of a river that you know has a southeast to northwest direction and you have a working compass, you should be able to work out if you are north or south of the river. Since ATC told her to remain north it would suggest that her position already was north.

smurfjed

She would have made her life easier if she actually had the map in her hand for continuous reference.

bkehoe

martinsvi wrote: »

When/If I'll be doing my first type rating, I would love my course mates to tape it, take some snaps. It's a once in a life time thing, something that these lads have worked hard for, sure you would want someone to take a picture of you? It's a fantastic milestone in one's career.

I agree, I don't know a single pilot who wasn't taking pictures and recording videos of their course mates first landing/approach/etc.
The captain of the flight has more important things to do than take pictures of the guy beside them and the safety pilot in the jumpseat is responsible for keeping an eye on everything, so the other pilots on board (usually base training will have maybe 6 - 10 on one flight) of course help document probably the most important professional life changing event in their career. The other pilots on board would then take their seats (or the 4th flight deck jumpseat) for the actual landing.
Base training is a fun day, actually brought back the memories of trying to go to the toilet while on downwind in the circuit while it was bumpy one time I did it!

martinsvi

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

As I said above if you are in sight of a river that you know has a southeast to northwest direction and you have a working compass, you should be able to work out if you are north or south of the river.

that's assuming:
a) the student pilot is not overwhelmed by the potentially dangerous situation brewing
b) she heard the ATC radio as clearly as we did sitting in our sofas
c) there's no added drama to make a good tv..

California Dreamer

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What assumptions? I looked at Google maps to see how big the river was and its proximity to the airport. It's quite large and appears to be an ideal feature for VFR flight as it looks like following it south will set you up nicely to join final for 18 or left/right downwind for 36. If she was following a heading along a predefined track and keeping track of her position up until she encountered cloud, then it must have been either a left or right turn to intercept the river, descending as required to remain clear of cloud. I suppose my issue is not so much with failing to initially find it, but rather not knowing what direction she was going in or what side of it she was on when she actually did find it. As I said above if you are in sight of a river that you know has a southeast to northwest direction and you have a working compass, you should be able to work out if you are north or south of the river. Since ATC told her to remain north it would suggest that her position already was north.

Still haven't answered my question about being an actual pilot or the ultimate armchair critic?

I would also ask that you leave fact aside from fiction and what looks good for tv.

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

that's assuming:
a) the student pilot is not overwhelmed by the potentially dangerous situation brewing
b) she heard the ATC radio as clearly as we did sitting in our sofas
c) there's no added drama to make a good tv..

If she was overwhelmed to the point of not knowing what direction she should fly even after finding a very distinct and helpful feature such as a river that flows beside the intended airfield, or not even knowing what side of the river she was on then I stand by what I said in that it reflected poorly on her. I certainly wouldn't want that to be broadcast to millions if it happened to me.

Of course we only saw a few brief clips so there is little point in discussing it. She obviously found her way and landed safely eventually which is the main goal in that situation.

1123heavy

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

They hire a lot of pilots, I doubt you're keeping track of them all but I'm sure there are some modular pilots or at least pilots that have self funded their integrated training.

As of at least the last 6/7 years or so there have been a total of 0 modular pilots (connections and what not aside) employed as somewhat of a rule. The path has been OAA/CTC and in more recent times FTE. The only way a self improver may get a job with easyjet is if they first get a job elsewhere and end up on the 320 and apply as direct entry.

This is one area where Ryanair deserve credit, although it would be naive to think they have done it their way to help out candidates, they just want minimal commitment to anyone who hasn't a license and so they only look at them after they get it and couldn't care less where they trained if they prove themselves at the assessment.

deaddonkey15

1123heavy wrote: »

As of at least the last 6/7 years or so there have been a total of 0 modular pilots (connections and what not aside) employed as somewhat of a rule. The path has been OAA/CTC and in more recent times FTE. The only way a self improver may get a job with easyjet is if they first get a job elsewhere and end up on the 320 and apply as direct entry.

Interesting. How do you know this?

1123heavy

Just to post again about the show. Without too much rumours and "my friend said ... ", not all is as it seems. He trained with one of the ladies on the show up until the end of their licenses and her father is a senior easyjet captain, she has had more than a few hiccups along the way is putting it mildly.

As for the show as a whole, I couldn't watch it, the trailer was enough for me to want to grab a bucket and puke.

http://ctctrainingblog.ryanclyde.com/page/3/

https://twitter.com/rycly?lang=en

Excuse me but since when has this profession been a Hollywood superstar role? Levels of narcissism completely off the scales and having trained with some people like this, I do fear they are becoming the future. Give me a crusty old grumpy git who has a library in his brain than this nonsense any day.

It should of course be taken into account that this was for none other than the general public who nowadays are only interested in action and drama, a good educational series on pilot training and how it works would be far too boring for most people unfortunately.

Now this is something worth watching !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03ppjh8lg_8

1123heavy

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Interesting. How do you know this?

https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/pilot-roles/

a requirement is:

"Currently operating as a co-pilot and with an ATPL (not a CPL), along with meeting the total flying hours requirements shown on the individual job adverts .... commercial airline experience"

No modular guys I know have commercial airline experience as pilots before their first job as a pilot.

The job ads for co pilots go on to state they require 500 hrs, and they are not actually even hiring direct entry FOs at the moment it seems, only via their school partners.

https://careers.easyjet.com/pilots/pilot-training/

Here they list their "partner schools", it has been the same for at least 6/7 years as I said except with Jerez having been added recently.

Negative_G

1123heavy wrote: »

Just to post again about the show. Without too much rumours and "my friend said ... ", not all is as it seems. He trained with one of the ladies on the show up until the end of their licenses and her father is a senior easyjet captain, she has had more than a few hiccups along the way is putting it mildly.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

CEO's and senior management are all about gender quotas. Having female pilots in what is a male dominated industry makes for good photo ops and good PR.

EI are milking their latest poster child at every opportunity. Doubt it would be the case if "she" was a "he".

martinsvi

after watching the second episode, I think indeed a lot of things there happen for the show. What didn't made any sense to me was the flying they did in the firefly - why is the instructor sitting in the left seat? Why is the instructor doing all maneuvers? How do you get that far in the training without doing steep turns and upset recoveries yourself? I just don't buy CTC letting you go through multi engine training without doing upper airwork first

basill

It's upset recovery training in a light single. Bears zero resemblance to upset recovery training on type. We don't fly inverted. Could be that it's a requirement for licensing/training that the exercises are demo'd only or just judicious editing and/or insurance. In any case once she is doing her type rating then she will have ample opportunity to demonstrate stall and upset recovery training as part of the type rating.

martinsvi

basill wrote: »

It's upset recovery training in a light single. Bears zero resemblance to upset recovery training on type. We don't fly inverted. Could be that it's a requirement for licensing/training that the exercises are demo'd only or just judicious editing and/or insurance. In any case once she is doing her type rating then she will have ample opportunity to demonstrate stall and upset recovery training as part of the type rating.

I know, but I did my upsets and upper air work just prior my solo as part of PPL. If she's back from New Zealand, that indicates she's pretty much done with training and ready to move on to the TR.. to me that kind of looked like the producer just needed footage and asked the girl to go out and look screamish for some good shots

lambayire

Really enjoyed those first 2 episodes.

Thanks for the YouTube links!

scudzilla

Was that it, just 2 episodes, or was there a 3rd not posted on YT??