(Aug 17) NEW Interdepartmental HEO comp (Serving civil servants only)

Bob Cratchit

Yep

OzzieRules

In my view everyone through from stage 2 should be told now if they are through again from shortlisting, and a new panel formed on that basis. That is the only fair way. Why should we have to wait, up to 2 years for some, to find that out? Plus the criteria could change if they start running short.

paul 27

Unpopular opinion here but maybe a lot of people simply over estimated the value of there experience, I was told that if you didn't have enough relevant and recent management experience then it was going to be difficult

Addle

Did applicants who didn't make the cut follow the STAR approach when completing the form?

podge018

I presume we will receive further information re. the basis of the presentation soon?

Mrmr17

Maybe we're all over thinking things , but they should explain the process in more detail. If they're already in the 500s for people after stage 2 for Dublin, then it seems to be moving fast. How long is the panel open for (panel before interview)? As I said, I'm 1400 so doubt I'll have any chance being called for an interview 😢

billyhead

The shortlisting exercise is not just a good way of filtering out numbers but also another process to ensure that PAS hire the right candidate whom in their eyes fits the profile for the position they need filled. Revenue do this shortlisting exercise for AO jobs. I understand how someone can be browned off having been through the aptitude tests and been successful to be told they no longer qualify but recruitment is a cut throat business. For those unsuccessful don't dwell on it to much. Build up the experience required and go again. No one died:)

billyhead

Mrmr17 wrote: »

Maybe we're all over thinking things , but they should explain the process in more detail. If they're already in the 500s for people after stage 2 for Dublin, then it seems to be moving fast. How long is the panel open for (panel before interview)? As I said, I'm 1400 so doubt I'll have any chance being called for an interview ��

The panel is open until Oct 19 according to the circular.

Optiplexy99

Addle wrote: »

COs have gotten through to the next stage of this competition, and COs have gotten posts in the 2015 competition.
PAS do not have it in for COs.

Of course they don't have it in for CO's....
I personally don't know of any COs that got thru !!
Didn't hear of any either.. Anyone I know who were successful were all EO's

Bob Cratchit

Optiplexy99 wrote: »

Of course they don't have it in for CO's....
I personally don't know of any COs that got thru !!
Didn't hear of any either.. Anyone I know who were successful were all EO's

Yep, all EOs in my dept.

Mrmr17

Addle wrote: »

Did applicants who didn't make the cut follow the STAR approach when completing the form?

Yep. I know 3 people that used the STAR approach! Is there an issue using that?

Mrmr17

Addle wrote: »

Did applicants who didn't make the cut follow the STAR approach when completing the form?

Yep. I know 3 people that used the STAR approach! Is there an issue using that?

Mrmr17

Addle wrote: »

Did applicants who didn't make the cut follow the STAR approach when completing the form?

Yep. I know 3 people that used the STAR approach! Is there an issue using that?

Addle

Mrmr17 wrote: »

Yep. I know 3 people that used the STAR approach! Is there an issue using that?

No, just that I think that if an applicant didn't use it referencing specific examples, they wouldn't get through.

You can be sure PAS have covered all bases.
Don't waste any more time and energy with an appeal.

CBarkley

No harm appealing the decision.Get a few answers at least and put your mind at rest a bit.

IIRC there is a very small window open to lodge your appeal.Get it in asap if you're thinking about it.

podge018

Addle wrote: »

No, just that I think that if an applicant didn't use it referencing specific examples, they wouldn't get through.

You can be sure PAS have covered all bases.
Don't waste any more time and energy with an appeal.

I'm not having this at all, the STAR method isn't compulsory with PAS, it's a recommended way to approach things by interview experts for sure, but you can't disregard an application that doesn't use it. The person could perfectly display the competency in an interview and not use STAR.

podge018

Optiplexy99 wrote: »

Of course they don't have it in for CO's....
I personally don't know of any COs that got thru !!
Didn't hear of any either.. Anyone I know who were successful were all EO's

post numbers 508 and 510 of this thread, 2 COs who have got through.

SSSHHWING

I'm out too, unfortunately. I see absolutely no harm in appealing. Might get more info out of it.

A pal of mine suggested I post some of his appeal for others to use or reword as they wish.

I refer Campaign ID: _____________ My candidate ID is __________.

I request to have my application reviewed informally at first under Section 7.


The application form is a guideline to a candidates work history and is not a substitute for the interview process which is the real measure of the relevant competencies. The interview also allows candidates to draw on a wealth of examples outside previous Civil Service experience.

Previously there has been no shortlisting based on application forms, and the re-introduction of this additional step for Interdepartmental HEO competitions appears arbitrary and unfair, especially when not notified as part of the application process.

In particular the competition for HEO as advertised is based on an assessment of a candidates’ capacity to fulfil the additional demands of the role. The feedback received in my case ‘relative to those shortlisted, candidate did not demonstrate the level of management of projects/operations and analysis and decision making required for the HEO role’, suggests in particular that rather than an assessment of my capacity deliver on these competencies in the future, I was assessed on my experience to date. This at variance with the actions laid out in the Civil Service Renewal Plan whereby staff at all levels of experience within the Civil Service provided they had the two-year minimum would be eligible.

I request also the basis (scoresheet) for the marking procedure of the application forms and the details of who conducted the process.

Regards

______________________

eimaj18

podge018 wrote: »

Optiplexy99 wrote: »

Of course they don't have it in for CO's....
I personally don't know of any COs that got thru !!
Didn't hear of any either..  Anyone I know who were successful were all EO's

post numbers 508 and 510 of this thread, 2 COs who have got through.

Yup - I'm one that got through. I was 171 after Stage 2.

GKE

billyhead wrote: »

The shortlisting exercise is not just a good way of filtering out numbers but also another process to ensure that PAS hire the right candidate whom in their eyes fits the profile for the position they need filled. Revenue do this shortlisting exercise for AO jobs. I understand how someone can be browned off having been through the aptitude tests and been successful to be told they no longer qualify but recruitment is a cut throat business. For those unsuccessful don't dwell on it to much. Build up the experience required and go again. No one died:)

Very hard to build up management experience in the area that I work in so very hard not to dwell on it

love_love

SSSHHWING wrote: »

I'm out too, unfortunately. I see absolutely no harm in appealing. Might get more info out of it.

A pal of mine suggested I post some of his appeal for others to use or reword as they wish.

This is really helpful.

I think there is definitely a point in appealing, not because it will change the decision (unfortunately, I don't believe it will), but because it will express dissatisfaction with how this competition has been run. I find it frustrating that certain people are telling others to "get over it" etc. There is a complete lack of precedence for this shortlisting stage so there has been no reason to believe up until now that anyone who came tops in the supervised testing would realistically be eliminated before having an opportunity to interview. Regardless of precedence, people are entitled to be upset and disappointed about not making it through, and to commiserate together in this thread.

edelweiss

Bob Cratchit wrote: »

I'm going to ask PAS for feedback, and I suggest that others do the same.
If they examined the first 400 and "relative to those shortlisted", you didn't make the cut, then that infers that they are taking the top 200 or so from each batch. Obviously then, placing highly puts you at a serious disadvantage.
n
If I'm wrong, I want it explained by to me by PAS

I wouldn't be too optimistic about the feedback that you will receive from PAS. I expect that it will be very vague as usual.

In the 2016 campaign for A.O. only about a third of those interviewed passed it. I think that it was the same for the second batch.

In the HEO campaign, I believe that they have a predetermined number / percentage that they bring through to the interview, in this case 53.75%.

Best of luck to all going for interview!

Bob Cratchit

edelweiss wrote: »

I wouldn't be too optimistic about the feedback that you will receive from PAS. I expect that it will be very vague as usual.

In the 2016 campaign for A.O. only about a third of those interviewed passed it. I think that it was the same for the second batch.

In the HEO campaign, I believe that they have a predetermined number / percentage that they bring through to the interview, in this case 53.75%.

Best of luck to all going for interview!

It’s not about optimism. I think the process is deeply flawed and I think it’s important to point it out.
I would have no problem with a 53.75% cull after interviews.

Addle

Why would anyone not put their best examples in the form?
Why save them for an interview you may not be called for?
No one was guaranteed getting past the initial tests.

edelweiss

Bob Cratchit wrote: »

It’s not about optimism. I think the process is deeply flawed and I think it’s important to point it out.
I would have no problem with a 53.75% cull after interviews.

I agree that the process is flawed. I was merely pointing out that the feedback that PAS will provide is useless. It does nothing for transparency.

I believe that everyone who did not get through should look for feedback and appeal. It must be done immediately as there is only a short time within which an appeal must be lodged.

Addle

edelweiss wrote: »

I agree that the process is flawed.

I agree. Lots of capable and qualified candidates don't get past the tests.

Optiplexy99

podge018 wrote: »

post numbers 508 and 510 of this thread, 2 COs who have got through.

Thanks for that!! Like I said I "Personally" don't know any CO's that got thru 👍

Optiplexy99

eimaj18 wrote: »

Yup - I'm one that got through. I was 171 after Stage 2.

Well done & the very best of luck with your interview & future career!!! 👍

Spencer105

Optiplexy99 wrote: »

Thanks for that!! Like I said I "Personally" don't know any CO's that got thru ðŸ‘

I'm a co and I got through

wos

GKE wrote: »

Very hard to build up management experience in the area that I work in so very hard not to dwell on it

You're not going to promote your way out of that situation - what I mean is this is the time you should focus on a move (in your current grade) to an area where you feel you can build up your management experience (if you feel that you have exhausted all possibilities of obtaining it in your current role). This way you will have it for the next HEO competition.

Mrmr17

It would be great if anyone had more information in relation to current places being called for Interview/Presentation.

Thanks for the template SSSHHWING. Would be good to query it if people don't get through.

SSSHHWING

Mrmr17 wrote: »

It would be great if anyone had more information in relation to current places being called for Interview/Presentation.

Thanks for the template SSSHHWING. Would be good to query it if people don't get through.

Just be aware that today is your last chance for an appeal.

GKE

wos wrote: »

You're not going to promote your way out of that situation - what I mean is this is the time you should focus on a move (in your current grade) to an area where you feel you can build up your management experience (if you feel that you have exhausted all possibilities of obtaining it in your current role). This way you will have it for the next HEO competition.

Oh I understand what you are saying but where I am based its near impossible to transfer to other areas unless promoted. Have been in the same place for 10 years and have seen very little movement. This is why i chose Dublin for this competition. Hard to be so optimistic.. Aw well suppose have until October 2019 to think about it!

LisaD76

I wasn't part of this campaign but I have a friend who works in PAS and the process sounds shocking.

I was told that 400 applications were looked at over 1 (or 2) days by management there (group exercise of 3 managers).

If that's the case and they spent 6 / 7 hours at it (even over 2 days that's up to 14 hours) then they spent maybe 2 minutes max on each application.

Everyone who wasn't successful should contact and appeal. If today is the last day as previous poster said just get in your appeal and question it later. She said they've already had a number of queries.

I'd also contact any union you are part of. The process of shortlisting if it did happen as above is not fair and seems they just randomly picked x number.

I've had previous dealings with PAS and they're operations are dubious. They offer little feedback - usually a general generic response.

Dr Crayfish

Maybe it's just me but if I hadn't got through I'd have just accepted it and got on with my life. I don't think you're going to appeal your way into an interview. Then again I don't really care if I get HEO or not so I'm probably not one to be commenting on this!

Guys the email address to use is Heorecruitment2017@publicjobs.ie .

Mrmr17

There's no point in me appealing as I haven't even got called for an interview. Yes, I think they're hand picked and who you know and not what you know. If I were to contact PAS, could they tell me where they are on the panel at the moment in relation to offering interviews?

billyhead

Mrmr17 wrote: »

There's no point in me appealing as I haven't even got called for an interview. Yes, I think they're hand picked and who you know and not what you know. If I were to contact PAS, could they tell me where they are on the panel at the moment in relation to offering interviews?

I wouldn't agree with the who you know statement
Pas have to be open and transparent. Patience is the key in your position
There is no hope of you been called this side of Xmas.

GKE

I really hope that i never have the misfortune of having one or two of the posters here as my HEO. They don't seem to understand compassion in the slightest. Just remember, ye still have to pass the interview!! Might be knocked swiftly off of yer high horses then!

billyhead

GKE wrote: »

I really hope that i never have the misfortune of having one or two of the posters here as my HEO. They don't seem to understand compassion in the slightest. Just remember, ye still have to pass the interview!! Might be knocked swiftly off of yer high horses then!

I am not sure whom you are inferring to but I and possibly many others have have not passed interviews or tests previously
were I felt I did well and was unjustifiablely let down but I just dust myself off and get on with it and keep applying and applying. Life is too short for regrets or dwelling on missed opportunities.

Riskymove

The problem here is the introduction of shortlisting by PAS

In all the open competitions if you place high enough you are called to interview/assessment

what is the point of having people do online tests if they are then going to discount the people who do well. If there is a certain requirment to be considered for HEO then it should be up front and part of the conditions to do the competition in the first place so that people can be clear going in.

billyhead

Riskymove wrote: »

The problem here is the introduction of shortlisting by PAS

In all the open competitions if you place high enough you are called to interview/assessment

what is the point of having people do online tests if they are then going to discount the people who do well. If there is a certain requirment to be considered for HEO then it should be up front and part of the conditions to do the competition in the first place so that people can be clear going in.

It was though. It stated it on the circular that shortlisting would be part of the selection process.

Dr Crayfish

The shortlisting should probably be done when the forms are submitted, before the tests, I agree with that. But not having shortlisting in any form I think is ridiculous. CO to HEO is a huge step up, and even a lot of EO jobs have zero management involvement.

Addle

Riskymove wrote: »

The problem here is the introduction of shortlisting by PAS

In all the open competitions if you place high enough you are called to interview/assessment

what is the point of having people do online tests if they are then going to discount the people who do well. If there is a certain requirment to be considered for HEO then it should be up front and part of the conditions to do the competition in the first place so that people can be clear going in.

Shortlisting is mentioned in the conditions.
Shortlisting using a form is used internally by many departments.
Why does everyone have to complete a form when they may not all get past the initial test phase?

ParkRunner

Riskymove wrote: »

The problem here is the introduction of shortlisting by PAS

In all the open competitions if you place high enough you are called to interview/assessment

what is the point of having people do online tests if they are then going to discount the people who do well. If there is a certain requirment to be considered for HEO then it should be up front and part of the conditions to do the competition in the first place so that people can be clear going in.

With the competitions so open now I think it’s the case that they just need a blunt instrument to get numbers down to a manageable number. The tests are done on computers so require little in terms of Human Resources. Analysing every applicant (in the thousands) in terms of their suitability first would be a huge exercise. It would be great if it could be done and do away with the test, but this is the process in place.

Bob Cratchit

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

The shortlisting should probably be done when the forms are submitted, before the tests, I agree with that. But not having shortlisting in any form I think is ridiculous. CO to HEO is a huge step up, and even a lot of EO jobs have zero management involvement.

A lot of CO's of are new entrants with private sector experience. CO to HEO is not a huge step for them.

Dr Crayfish

Bob Cratchit wrote: »

A lot of CO's of are new entrants with private sector experience. CO to HEO is not a huge step for them.

A lot of them aren't though

Riskymove

billyhead wrote: »

It was though. It stated it on the circular that shortlisting would be part of the selection process.

I am aware that shortlisiting is mentioned.

My point is that, while mentioned as a possible step, it is not used in the Open competitions being run at present

For example there are people at different grades getting through to interview up to PO in those yet they cannot get an interview for HEO

There is also no detail on the basis for the shortlisting. If there is in effect a second set of criteria then people should know about it and then they would know if they in fact qualify and make a decision to compete on that basis

billyhead

Riskymove wrote: »

I am aware that shortlisiting is mentioned.

My point is that, while mentioned as a possible step, it is not used in the Open competitions being run at present

For example there are people at different grades getting through to interview up to PO in those yet they cannot get an interview for HEO

There is also no detail on the basis for the shortlisting. If there is in effect a second set of criteria then people should know about it and then they would know if they in fact qualify and make a decision to compete on that basis

Its done by Revenue for open competitions for AO.

hollymartins

I'm certain I've entered competitions in the past where there was shortlisting from forms (for example AO and Revenue comps). I believe PAS are right to sift through forms and make cuts if they don't meet the standard. I scored way down in the order of merit so they may never reach me but if they do and my form doesn't make the grade then I'll just have to accept it.

I do think that they could've shortlisted before the hassle of sitting the aptitude test but I'm sure people would've complained about that too and claimed they were denied the chance to do the test.

If there's a lesson to learn from this for everyone is to put lots of time into your form and refine it as it may be the difference between getting an interview and not.

Best of luck to all those called this time around.