(Aug 17) NEW Interdepartmental HEO comp (Serving civil servants only)

Riskymove

billyhead wrote: »

Its done by Revenue for open competitions for AO.

I am not saying I have a problem with shortlisting per se but I think it makes more sense where you are competing for a very small number of jobs (such as AO in Revenue)... (or indeed just one specified job)

it is the first time it's been used in recent times for such general competitions and as I mentioned it is not applied to the open competitions generally (e.g. AP and PO)

I think it is natural that if someone gets high up the list after the online tests and then is told they are not going to get an inteview that they would be disappointed and want to know the basis...expecially where they may be offered interview for a higher grade

it just needs to be clear

If, in effect, a CO needed a certain amount of experience in the grade to be shortlisted, it would be be better if that was an upfront requirement

love_love

Riskymove wrote: »

If, in effect, a CO needed a certain amount of experience in the grade to be shortlisted, it would be be better if that was an upfront requirement

Completely agree. It's all well and good for people to advise that they have used examples from the private sector or building their house or some such, but if it is not possible to gain sufficient experience to be shortlisted based on experience as a CO without having other external experience, it may be more fair to exclude that grade from applying. The same goes for anyone saying "buck up, learn from this experience, and fill in the application better next time." In the CO role, there are limited responsibilities to be taken on (regardless of how much I try!!), and so my application form would not look sufficiently different with more years at the same grade. I understand that there are a few COs on here who have been shortlisted (and I roll my eyes at people implying that anyone is saying PAS or anyone has any kind of "vendetta" against COs - that's missing the point entirely), but the point is that this shortlisting excluded a majority of COs from having the opportunity to prove their suitability at interview and assessment.

wiseoldelf

any idea what number did they get up for the interviews, if they have selected 400 for interviews, how many have they excluded from the manual screening

hollymartins

You'd be surprised how many EO's would be drawing on CO experiences in their examples. I was a CO for nearly 15 years and some of the areas I worked in that time were more challenging than where I have worked as an EO. To claim that shortlisting excludes the majority of COs is simply not true as I know many who may have experience leading teams (perhaps on a particular project) or managing an extensive workload.

If as a CO your role doesn't give you those opportunities then you need to see if you can speak to your HEO about expanding your experience. I know unfortunately that some areas just do not offer those opportunities, I was in that situation myself and after much pleading with HR I managed to get a transfer to another division where I was able to contribute as a CO at a higher level.

missierex

love_love wrote: »

If you have it, would you mind sharing it on here?

I'll definitely be requesting detailed feedback. I find it interesting that they specified in the feedback "Relative to those shortlisted" given that they said the board "examined the application forms against pre-determined criteria". So did they examine based on pre-determined criteria, or did they compare applications received against each other (as is implied in the statement that the level of whatever demonstrated was not sufficient "relative" to others who were successful in being shortlisted)?

I wouldn't bother requesting feedback...I did and I was informed that the only feedback available had already been provided to me in the email from PAS Monday evening...

Catuohy89

Riskymove wrote: »

I am not saying I have a problem with shortlisting per se but I think it makes more sense where you are competing for a very small number of jobs (such as AO in Revenue)... (or indeed just one specified job)

it is the first time it's been used in recent times for such general competitions and as I mentioned it is not applied to the open competitions generally (e.g. AP and PO)

I think it is natural that if someone gets high up the list after the online tests and then is told they are not going to get an inteview that they would be disappointed and want to know the basis...expecially where they may be offered interview for a higher grade

it just needs to be clear

If, in effect, a CO needed a certain amount of experience in the grade to be shortlisted, it would be be better if that was an upfront requirement

The initial booklet outlined it was an eligibility requirement to have management experience.

I recieved my form to fill out this morning and have sent it in now. I will let you know when I hear a response.

SSSHHWING

Littlefinger wrote: »

I recieved my form to fill out this morning and have sent it in now. I will let you know when I hear a response.

They sent me the form too. They only sent it just over an hour before close of business though. Wasn't in a position to fill it out. Will attempt to submit late.

eimaj18

What form are you guys talking about? Is it to submit a review?

eimaj18

eimaj18 wrote: »

What form are you guys talking about? Is it to submit a review?

Yes I was sent it this morning. I had contacted the names contact on the website . I had also emailed the heoreceuitment email address this morning and they only sent it to me about 2 hours ago.

The informal review has to be in by close of business today. You have until Friday to submit a formal review.

SSSHHWING

Littlefinger wrote: »

Yes I was sent it this morning. I had contacted the names contact on the website . I had also emailed the heoreceuitment email address this morning and they only sent it to me about 2 hours ago.

The informal review has to be in by close of business today. You have until Friday to submit a formal review.

I read through the Codes of Practice. It does not mention a form. Can certainly be argued that simply requesting a review is enough.

edelweiss

wiseoldelf wrote: »

any idea what number did they get up for the interviews, if they have selected 400 for interviews, how many have they excluded from the manual screening

It was mentioned in an earlier post that 215 were being called for interview.

Stickmam

LisaD76 wrote: »

I wasn't part of this campaign but I have a friend who works in PAS and the process sounds shocking.

I was told that 400 applications were looked at over 1 (or 2) days by management there (group exercise of 3 managers).

If that's the case and they spent 6 / 7 hours at it (even over 2 days that's up to 14 hours) then they spent maybe 2 minutes max on each application.

Everyone who wasn't successful should contact and appeal. If today is the last day as previous poster said just get in your appeal and question it later. She said they've already had a number of queries.

I'd also contact any union you are part of. The process of shortlisting if it did happen as above is not fair and seems they just randomly picked x number.

I've had previous dealings with PAS and they're operations are dubious. They offer little feedback - usually a general generic response.

That's quite shocking if it's true.

Those of you sending in appeal forms, did PAS say how long it would take? Is it quick enough to put you back in the first batch of interviews if successful?

Stickmam

Stickmam wrote: »

That's quite shocking if it's true.

Those of you sending in appeal forms, did PAS say how long it would take? Is it quick enough to put you back in the first batch of interviews if successful?

I'll check in the morning to see what was said and let you know.

CBarkley

Anyone unhappy should request a formal review no point being pissed off on boards .

There are section 7 and section 8 formal reviews.If your unhappy with your result go section 7, if unhappy or think there is a flaw in the competition go Section 8.
Also request all documents for this competition via Freedom of Information.
Make it known there are huge numbers unhappy with the way this was run and maybe it makes them reavaluate the process.

You have absolutely nothing to lose by doing this.Dont let them fob you off or say wait for feedback/FoI first.
You only have a few days to get a review in.

love_love

SSSHHWING wrote: »

I read through the Codes of Practice. It does not mention a form. Can certainly be argued that simply requesting a review is enough.

Seconding this - I sent an email requesting a review yesterday and I got a reply saying my request for review has been noted and they'll revert back to me. I've double and triple checked that there's no form attached. It seems very strange for them to be treating people's correspondence differently, unless perhaps there wasn't an explicit request for review in the email, or not enough detail?

I'll be submitting to CPSA tomorrow as per the Codes of Practice - simply so I don't miss the deadline. These short deadlines don't really give PAS an opportunity to respond but the most important thing is to make sure everything is going through the right channels.

Addle

Anyone get details of interview panel or presentation details yet?
They're not giving successful candidates much notice.

Doubtitdub

No nothing yet apart from confirming attendance.

So I submitted my informal review just before 16:00 yesterday evening. Got my reply about ten mins ago saying they were upholding the decision. So have two days to submit a formal review.

eimaj18

Have heard nothing yet - I nearly missed confirming my attendance! I was looking in my email to add the interview to my calendar, and I noticed I had to email in by 12pm - this was at 11.40! Have had a bad week in relation to personal circumstances, so I'm so glad I looked at the email in more detail!
My interview is the 22nd - are there people on next week? I got an alert yesterday to log on to PublicJobs.ie that I had a message, but it was something about an Auditor job! Why do they send random emails when you're waiting on info!?

Grainne28

I just received the exact same message, I wonder if anyone got the decision overturned?

Grainne28

Grainne28 wrote: »

I just received the exact same message, I wonder if anyone got the decision overturned?

Well I'm gonna go down the formal route now. Hope you are too.

We probably received the exact same email with just our names changed.

BigC89

Grainne28 wrote: »

I just received the exact same message, I wonder if anyone got the decision overturned?

To be honest I think no ones will be overturned. I put mine in also but if they overturn one they will open themselves up to everyone who misses out in the future sending in review requests. Overturning one will open the floodgates for them.


Thats not to say sending it in is not a good idea. If alot do it shows serious dissatisfaction with the process and it may be changed for the next competition. I dnt think anyone should be hoping for their results to be overturned though

Grainne28

Yes I will submit a formal review also. I would say everyone received the exact same email.

GKE

Got email from public jobs re informal review.. very informative.. NOT!! Standard email going to everyone I would think!

I had sent mine in at 15:36 yesterday. They replied at 11:40 today. This makes me feel as they barely glanced over the application form , especially since so many people seem to be getting theirs around the same time today?
From my own experience in the review process , informal reviewers take a day or two to read over everything and compare.

Doubtitdub

Just received info there on the interview and the presentation. In on Tuesday, weekend of fun ahead preparing for this..

Bob Cratchit

I got the standard letter too.

Am going to go the formal route. Why not.
Sending the same standard letter at the same time to us all is insulting, also there was no information in it.

SSSHHWING

Received standard response. Will be proceeding to formal review.

love_love

Ditto to all of the above. They also seem to be confirming that it's not necessarily that the application/applicant was deemed unsuitable, just that others were deemed more suitable. Which seems to imply that you are compared to whoever is being shortlisted at the same time as you. So the criteria/benchmark could change dependent on the pool of applications/applicants you are in (based on order of merit from the tests).

Also, good luck to everyone preparing for interview & presentation!!

hollymartins

love_love wrote: »

Ditto to all of the above. They also seem to be confirming that it's not necessarily that the application/applicant was deemed unsuitable, just that others were deemed more suitable. Which seems to imply that you are compared to whoever is being shortlisted at the same time as you. So the criteria/benchmark could change dependent on the pool of applications/applicants you are in (based on order of merit from the tests).

Also, good luck to everyone preparing for interview & presentation!!

I would've thought that benchmark would be pretty consistent? Lets say the standard of the next batch of forms is lower then they may cut even more people or they would increase the numbers of forms they look at in order to call another 215 for interview (or whatever the figure for interview is). It'll be interesting to see if they provide information regarding the shortlisting process and how transparent they will be.

ParkRunner

love_love wrote: »

Ditto to all of the above. They also seem to be confirming that it's not necessarily that the application/applicant was deemed unsuitable, just that others were deemed more suitable. Which seems to imply that you are compared to whoever is being shortlisted at the same time as you. So the criteria/benchmark could change dependent on the pool of applications/applicants you are in (based on order of merit from the tests).

Also, good luck to everyone preparing for interview & presentation!!

That’s pretty much the same as stages 1 & 2, the pass mark will depend on how everyone else got on at the tests.

eimaj18

Doubtitdub wrote: »

Just received info there on the interview and the presentation. In on Tuesday, weekend of fun ahead preparing for this..

Anyone else that got through to interview get the details? I've heard nothing yet.

paul 27

eimaj18 wrote: »

Anyone else that got through to interview get the details? I've heard nothing yet.

I got an email with some familiarisation info for the interview and presentation earlier today

eimaj18

paul 27 wrote: »

eimaj18 wrote: »

Anyone else that got through to interview get the details? I've heard nothing yet.

I got an email with some familiarisation  info for the interview and presentation earlier today

Cheers - just rang them. Anyone who is on next week got theirs. Anyone who is the week after will get in next week. Thanks, best of luck and keep us posted!

Mrmr17

paul 27 wrote: »

eimaj18 wrote: »

Anyone else that got through to interview get the details? I've heard nothing yet.

I got an email with some familiarisation info for the interview and presentation earlier today

Hi Eimaj18, where did you get placed after stage 2??? I think that the process should be explained more clearly. Are people appealing because they got placed high but were then told they didn't get an interview??

eimaj18

Mrmr17 wrote: »

Hi Eimaj18, where did you get placed after stage 2??? I think that the process should be explained more clearly. Are people appealing because they got placed high but were then told they didn't get an interview??

I got placed 161 - I picked Dublin, and I've an interview on 22nd. 
People appealing against the shortlisting exercise as far as I know. Yes, placed high after stage 2 but weren't shortlisted.

billyhead

Didn't a poster get called for interview whom was placed in the 500s after stage 2. If 200 odd are being called for interview that's more then 50% not being shortlisted

Addle

billyhead wrote: »

Didn't a poster get called for interview whom was placed in the 500s after stage 2. If 200 odd are being called for interview that's more then 50% not being shortlisted

A lot of the applicants may not have chosen Dublin as a location.

edelweiss

love_love wrote: »

Ditto to all of the above. They also seem to be confirming that it's not necessarily that the application/applicant was deemed unsuitable, just that others were deemed more suitable. Which seems to imply that you are compared to whoever is being shortlisted at the same time as you. So the criteria/benchmark could change dependent on the pool of applications/applicants you are in (based on order of merit from the tests).

Also, good luck to everyone preparing for interview & presentation!!

By failing the candidate in a competency are they not implying that s/he is not suitable for the post of HEO?

SSSHHWING

edelweiss wrote: »

By failing the candidate in a competency are they not implying that s/he is not suitable for the post of HEO?

In the feedback from the appeals, they were very clear that this was not a fail. It said that the candidate was not unsuitable but relative to other candidates was not to progress.

Addle

SSSHHWING wrote: »

In the feedback from the appeals, they were very clear that this was not a fail. It said that the candidate was not unsuitable but relative to other candidates was not to progress.

It makes sense to me that the management & delivery of results competency is weighted more heavily than the others in this competition.

SSSHHWING

Addle wrote: »

It makes sense to me that the management & delivery of results competency is weighted more heavily than the others in this competition.

I don't disagree. It's the lack of transparency and the inconsistency with previous competitions that bothers me. I don't expect to get back in. What I do expect is clearer feedback. The one sentence review and lack of scoring system leaves us with little to go on. I want to know how to improve.

hollymartins

When you submitted your form were you happy with it or did you think you could improve upon it once you were in front of the interview board?

I can't remember much from my form at this stage..I think my examples were strong but reading this thread I'm doubting myself!

hollymartins

hollymartins wrote: »

When you submitted your form were you happy with it or did you think you could improve upon it once you were in front of the interview board?

I can't remember much from my form at this stage..I think my examples were strong but reading this thread I'm doubting myself!

I was happy with my example. Both my HEO and PO said that my application form was a strong one.

hollymartins

I can understand why you're perplexed if you had positive feedback from your HEO and PO. Hopefully PAS will be able to provide some clarity as to why you didn't make the cut.

billyhead

I wonder if educational qualifications and work experience are looked at in the shortlisting stage or is it just the examples given?

eimaj18

billyhead wrote: »

I wonder if educational qualifications and work experience are looked at in the shortlisting stage or is it just the examples given?

They said it was just competencies to me, but I'd be interested in seeing if they did take any of that into consideration,

Mrmr17

Eimaj18, you said that you were placed 161 and have just got called for interview, yet a previous poster said that someone in the 500s was called for an interview? Seems a bit strange to be honest.

hollymartins

Why is it strange? They were looking at 400 which had Dublin as a preferred location, a significant number of those in the top couple of 100 could have expressed regional preferences and would not be considered for this batch.