People who see the paranormal; mentally ill, hoaxters, or the 'placebo' effect?

GerryDerpy

pone2012 wrote: »

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

I have never heard of this man so I am not informed enough now to give a full opinion. But I will say that a couple of the things he demonstrates are age old scam tricks. Most notably the electric shock one. A battery device is used. The knife moving - balancing act.

ohnonotgmail

pone2012 wrote: »

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

Odd that he didnt choose to take the easy $1M offered by james randi if he has genuine powers.

Cheerful Spring

jeanjolie wrote: »

This is something I've been dying to ask. Unlike our American counterparts, it doesn't seem (thankfully) that we get people here who believe in the paranormal or see the paranormal in their house.

Even relatively religious people here that are Catholics and Muslims tend to stories of demonic entities, poltergeists, ghosts as people trying to look for YouTube views, people convincing themselves through the powerful human brain, or sadly people suffering from psychosis, schizophrenia.

Aren't those really the only logical ones? Science has failed to find evidence of psychic, curses, entities, other realms. It might seem absolutely, positively ignorant to claim that this is all there is, but at the same time we have to look at what unfounded beliefs do (homeopathy).

Is it time to start treating people who believe that the Ouija board has summoned granny through her tranny daughter?

Other dimensions science is not against this idea. If ghosts exist they be hanging out there.

GerryDerpy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Odd that he didnt choose to take the easy $1M offered by james randi if he has genuine powers.

Read a bit more on him. Reads as a con man. Pushing chop sticks through tables FFS. As soon as the scrutiny increased he made excuses and disappeared.

People that have genuine paranormal ability would be doing mankind a great service by cooperating and proving their powers. They would literally be one of the most important humans to have ever lived. But no, they always seem to get offended when questioned.

NIMAN

s15r330 wrote: »

Zero belief in the whole aliens are here thing or that they actually exist?

If people don't believe life exists elsewhere in the Universe they need looking at.
The Universe is so massive that the chances that we are the only life amongst the hundreds of trillions of possible planets out there is about as close to zero as it gets.

I would say there is a 99.999% chance of life on other planets somewhere, but I don't believe they are visiting us or living among us.

Cheerful Spring

NIMAN wrote: »

I would say there is a 99.999% chance of life on other planets somewhere, but I don't believe they are visiting us or living among us.

There is plenty of evidence of non human visitation, but i guess the million dollar question are they meeting secretly with governments behind the scenes?

storker

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Great mental gymnastics here.

Please explain why you think so.

NIMAN

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

There is plenty of evidence of non human visitation, but i guess the million dollar question are they meeting secretly with governments behind the scenes?

Is there?

We now live in a world where we can see silly things happening in the deepest corners of the world due to the amount of our lives that are being recorded and the fact that smart phones are recording everything, yet why no clear, sharp, detailed footage of aliens or ufo's?

ohnonotgmail

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Read a bit more on him. Reads as a con man. Pushing chop sticks through tables FFS. As soon as the scrutiny increased he made excuses and disappeared.

People that have genuine paranormal ability would be doing mankind a great service by cooperating and proving their powers. They would literally be one of the most important humans to have ever lived. But no, they always seem to get offended when questioned.

ah come on now, my post was obviously sarcastic. I dont believe he actually has any powers.

GerryDerpy

pone2012 wrote: »

The last time I seen peers observe supernatural phenomena was of John Chang aka Dynamo Jack who was a master of Neigong (Neikung)

There was various things performed under controlled settings...none of which said peers could explain

https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc

Of course, I did see skeptics try to debunk the video... Despite the fact scientists were present and tested said man..so I'll take the testament of said individuals plus the testament of his then students over armchair analysts any day

The fact is skeptics are rarely convinced... The usual mantra I hear is.. If science can't explain it, it isn't real...it's not an exclusive stance..but it's a very prominent one that permeates the majority of the western world

Didn't take me long to find this video: https://youtu.be/sErvoaeNzac

I am not saying it proves your man is a con, but there is enough reasonable doubt that I would lean heavily that way.

ohnonotgmail

NIMAN wrote: »

Is there?

We now live in a world where we can see silly things happening in the deepest corners of the world due to the amount of our lives that are being recorded and the fact that smart phones are recording everything, yet why no clear, sharp, detailed footage of aliens or ufo's?

yeah it is really odd that the rise of ufo sightings coincided with the invention of powered flight and died off with the invention of HD portable recording

jigglypuffstuff

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Read a bit more on him. Reads as a con man. Pushing chop sticks through tables FFS. As soon as the scrutiny increased he made excuses and disappeared.

People that have genuine paranormal ability would be doing mankind a great service by cooperating and proving their powers. They would literally be one of the most important humans to have ever lived. But no, they always seem to get offended when questioned.

Come off it Gerry, that man operates in an esoteric system closed to the public... He tried to bring some of that knowledge to the scientific Western world and was used and abused by two Western students he accepted.. Both wrote books about him and tried to profit from him.. And he was expelled from his school as a result

Actually he never got offended... He documented his abilities on camera before being scrutinised and allowing SCIENTISTS to test him..only for them to be baffled at his feats... Unexplainable then, and unexplainable now to science... However you're welcome to start digging through various esoteric sects of taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Kaballah, and various other teachings of mystery schools... You might find the explanation you're looking for there

Also the man was wealthy....never charged any of his students a single penny and spent a majority of his time healing people for free... So no need for him to lie or cheat... He'd absolutley NOTHING to gain... In fact he himself said he only allowed his abilities to be tested for scientific documentation... It was never supposed to be commercialised or publicised... I guess you missed that

donegaLroad

I have had a couple of weird experiences which I can't explain, the latest of which was a couple of weeks ago.

I had an nasty altercation with a guy when I was younger, and 8 years later he was killed off a motorbike.

For some reason, he came into my head for the first time in many years.. and out of curiosity I Googled his name. In the first few search results there was details of the inscription on his headstone from parish records. His 20th anniversary was the next day, 30th July.

I remember a thread on here a few years ago about Loftus Hall in Wexford. Would anyone care to stay the night there on their own?

Loftus Hall

GerryDerpy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

ah come on now, my post was obviously sarcastic. I dont believe he actually has any powers.

Oh no I was just expanding on your point. I was saying I read up more on him, not telling you too.

Cheerful Spring

NIMAN wrote: »

Is there?

We now live in a world where we can see silly things happening in the deepest corners of the world due to the amount of our lives that are being recorded and the fact that smart phones are recording everything, yet why no clear, sharp, detailed footage of aliens or ufo's?

American Presidents, government officials, military have confirmed the existence of the UFO phenomenon for 50 years. If you looking for a White House special announcement, you probably have to wait? Disclosure will be hard, if we have no flying disk, our alien ship to show the world?. Could we even communicate with a non human group from another planet?

riffmongous

NIMAN wrote: »

Is there?

We now live in a world where we can see silly things happening in the deepest corners of the world due to the amount of our lives that are being recorded and the fact that smart phones are recording everything, yet why no clear, sharp, detailed footage of aliens or ufo's?

Well, if you think about it, how much smart phone footage is there of top level US military spy planes recorded ?

ohnonotgmail

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

American Presidents, government officials, military have confirmed the existence of the UFO phenomenon for 50 years. If you looking for a White House special announcement, you probably have to wait? Disclosure will be hard, if we have no flying disk, our alien ship to show the world?. Could we even communicate with a non human group from another planet?

Confirmed the existence of Unidentified Flying Objects. No confirmation that they are extra-terrestrial in origin.

GerryDerpy

pone2012 wrote: »

Come off it Gerry, that man operates in an esoteric system closed to the public... He tried to bring some of that knowledge to the scientific Western world and was used and abused by two Western students he accepted.. Both wrote books about him and tried to profit from him.. And he was expelled from his school as a result

Actually he never got offended... He documented his abilities on camera before being scrutinised and allowing SCIENTISTS to test him..only for them to be baffled at his feats... Unexplainable then, and unexplainable now to science... However you're welcome to start digging through various esoteric sects of taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Kaballah, and various other teachings of mystery schools... You might find the explanation you're looking for there

Also the man was wealthy....never charged any of his students a single penny and spent a majority of his time healing people for free... So no need for him to lie or cheat... He'd absolutley NOTHING to gain... In fact he himself said he only allowed his abilities to be tested for scientific documentation... It was never supposed to be commercialised or publicised... I guess you missed that

Like I said, I am not well informed on the man.

But you can't deny there is reasonable doubt there. And I have heard of these tricks before.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying it is not proven. I would be confident of proving he is full of $hit though. Look at the video I posted for examples.

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yeah it is really odd that the rise of ufo sightings coincided with the invention of powered flight and died off with the invention of HD portable recording

False UFO's are described by different cultures for thousands of years.

Just a few examples.
14th century painting.


12th century painting. Notice the guy in the corner looking up?

GerryDerpy

donegaLroad wrote: »

I have had a couple of weird experiences which I can't explain, the latest of which was a couple of weeks ago.

I had an nasty altercation with a guy when I was younger, and 8 years later he was killed off a motorbike.

For some reason, he came into my head for the first time in many years.. and out of curiosity I Googled his name. In the first few search results there was details of the inscription on his headstone from parish records. His 20th anniversary was the next day, 30th July.

I remember a thread on here a few years ago about Loftus Hall in Wexford. Would anyone care to stay the night there on their own?

Loftus Hall

Well you were a day out..if your tolerance for a miracle is +/- a day that gives odds of 3 in 365. Not too big really. 1 in a million odds come through every day.

What about all the people you thought about that didn't have a death anniversary tomorrow? Do they not go into your data set for some reason?

Cheerful Spring

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Confirmed the existence of Unidentified Flying Objects. No confirmation that they are extra-terrestrial in origin.

If the UFO don't belong to Russia or America, who is the owner?

Jerichoholic

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

yeah it is really odd that the rise of ufo sightings coincided with the invention of powered flight and died off with the invention of HD portable recording

UFO sightings have never been higher.

jigglypuffstuff

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Like I said, I am not well informed on the man.

But you can't deny there is reasonable doubt there. And I have heard of these tricks before.

I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying it is not proven. I would be confident of proving he is full of $hit though. Look at the video I posted for examples.

I've seen and heard every one of them... And besides having both an interest in the occult and esoteric.. The reason I feel that footage is true is the following... What was his motive?

He never wanted money, he was hounded to let people film him, he never wanted the publicity..

In the accounts I've seen of that man..the only solid explanation I've seen has been that he's only tried to help others

So I'd be curious... In your opinion why would a man who wanted niether money, fame attention or recognition show such abilities? In your opinion.. Every charlatan I've ever encountered wanted one or all of the above... Yet he didn't..

The man was plagued ever since with people looking for him to teach them...which he never wanted

Cheerful Spring

Jerichoholic wrote: »

UFO sightings have never been higher.

Only 2 to 5 per cent of sightings is considered to be real. There is lot of rubbish sightings on Youtube. Military, police, and airplane pilot sightings are the most believable..

donegaLroad

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Well you were a day out..if your tolerance for a miracle is +/- a day that gives odds of 3 in 365. Not too big really. 1 in a million odds come through every day.

What about all the people you thought about that didn't have a death anniversary tomorrow? Do they not go into your data set for some reason?

It was the first time I had thought of him in about 10 years, how much does that change the odds by? Im just saying that I thought it pretty strange, probably just a big coincidence.

GerryDerpy

pone2012 wrote: »

I've seen and heard every one of them... And besides having both an interest in the occult and esoteric.. The reason I feel that footage is true is the following... What was his motive?

He never wanted money, he was hounded to let people film him, he never wanted the publicity..

In the accounts I've seen of that man..the only solid explanation I've seen has been that he's only tried to help others

So I'd be curious... In your opinion why would a man who wanted niether money, fame attention or recognition show such abilities? In your opinion.. Every charlatan I've ever encountered wanted one or all of the above... Yet he didn't..

The man was plagued ever since with people looking for him to teach them...which he never wanted

I'm sorry I don't know enough about him but I will say that his apparent good intentions don't change the reality. There is big enough holes in his abilities that it doesn't matter.

Besides, some people just want 15 mins of fame. He got it.

GerryDerpy

donegaLroad wrote: »

It was the first time I had thought of him in about 10 years, how much does that change the odds by? Im just saying that I thought it pretty strange, probably just a big coincidence.

Doesn't change the odds because he has an anniversary every year.

ceadaoin.

donegaLroad wrote: »

It was the first time I had thought of him in about 10 years, how much does that change the odds by? Im just saying that I thought it pretty strange, probably just a big coincidence.

Or maybe you thought of him other times and only remember that instance because you decided to Google him and discovered that the anniversary was approaching? I always seem to look at the clock when the time is 11.11. In reality though I also look at the clock dozens of other times a day but only that one sticks in my head. A bit like the baader meinhof effect.

jigglypuffstuff

GerryDerpy wrote: »

Besides, some people just want 15 mins of fame. He got it.

I'm sorry Gerry, but I'd highly doubt that..the footage itself is close to 30 years old, and the man that documented it is an anthropologist.. The former was unaware the original footage was aired....

The later footage was documented at the request of the man in question as he'd claimed to have had a revelation after a 2 year retreat alone in the Borneo Jungle( confirmed by his western students accounts) and wanted to document just enough of himself to show the world we are greater than we believe..

That is why the scientists were present.to rule out trickery ...not to mention the fact that the man who took the footage is himself a scientist

Tldr ; a bunch of scientists didn't stand around facilitating a charlatan... They just had no idea how to explain what they witnessed... And still don't to this day...almost 3 decades later

Carry

Believing in the paranormal is in my opinion just a kind of relief mechanism of a mind that can't (or don't want to) cope anymore with reality.

You see, I've had a shítty couple of days, because my house is haunted:
First my tumble dryer made crunching noises and then gave up.
Then my strimmer started mid-cutting to emit wisps of smoke, made wheezing noises and died.
Then my car started to make strange grating noises, too, and refused to brake properly and finally refused to start in the first place.
And just now my immersion started to screech ...
All in three days. Noises. Poltergeists. What else could it be?

I just want to curl up and believe in ghosts. Organising repairs or replacements, calling mechanics and stuff like that is just so tiring. One ghost for several mishaps is far easier to handle.

On another note: My very religious neighbour told me that there are demons around which you have to fight every day.
Sure, I said, everyone has their demons to fight.
No, he said, they are real, like real physical, with horns, hoofs, tails and all. (No, he didn't take the píss, he is dead serious).
He is a trained pilot ...

fineso.mom

Who wants to chip in and buy the OP his very own thread for all his questions. 117 threads in less than a year. Surely one big one would be more economical?

Spider Web

I'd say that sleep paralysis thing, where sounds and even apparitions appear to the person in a partial state of sleep/being awake but they can't move, could be the explanation for some experiences of haunting.

jigglypuffstuff

Spider Web wrote: »

I'd say that sleep paralysis thing, where sounds and even apparitions appear to the person in a partial state of sleep/being awake but they can't move, could be the explanation for some experiences of haunting.

Sleep paralysis is a f****** nightmare it's terrifying and I couldn't give two f**** what anyone says I know what I felt and saw...I screamed so loud but nothing came out

Terrifying

Spider Web

pone2012 wrote: »

Sleep paralysis is a f****** nightmare

Literally. Yeah absolutely terrifying. Feels so real.

namloc1980

Had a few episodes of sheep paralysis a good few years ago. Such a terrifying experience.

LETHAL LADY

namloc1980 wrote: »

Had a few episodes of sheep paralysis a good few years ago. Such a terrifying experience.

Baa...you dirty yolk!

jigglypuffstuff

Spider Web wrote: »

Literally. Yeah absolutely terrifying. Feels so real.

Even moreso when you've marks on you after it happened

riffmongous

What I found with sleep paralysis is that once you realise what it is, or most likely is, just some part of your brain waking up early, it's not so terrifying at all. It's still unsettling but then even in the dream I can recognise it and as soon as I wake up I barely even remember them anymore and go back to sleep

Hoboo

ceadaoin. wrote: »

donegaLroad wrote: »

It was the first time I had thought of him in about 10 years, how much does that change the odds by? Im just saying that I thought it pretty strange, probably just a big coincidence.

Or maybe you thought of him other times and only remember that instance because you decided to Google him and discovered that the anniversary was approaching? I always seem to look at the clock when the time is 11.11. In reality though I also look at the clock dozens of other times a day but only that one sticks in my head. A bit like the baader meinhof effect.

Haha, wait till you start seeing it everywhere, not just clocks. Had me up the walls for 6 months and then completely stopped. Car reg's, numbers on tickets, receipts, bank statements, electricity bill, I mean everywhere. 11:11 non stop. Sometimes multiple occurances a day. Happens to lots of people.

Your Face

Well I've never seen John Cena but I know he's there.

Explain that Mr. Scientist.

Wibbs

It could be argued that our ability to imagine things that aren't "real" was one of the biggest killer apps humans ever came up with(after fire, cooking and toolmaking). The "paranormal" is but one aspect of this. Religions would be another. Group affiliations beyond family such as nations would be yet another. We imagined atoms long before we knew their nature. Goes for many, if not most game changing scientific breakthroughs. Even very practical things like businesses are "imaginary" in purely reductive terms. We collectively agree that say the Ford Motor Company is a "thing". It has rights and protections and exists, beyond the man that started it and the people that continue it because we agree it does. The money in your pocket is another example. It has no intrinsic value. It's not even connected anymore to a gold standard that has some. Again we agree with the "fantasy".

A completely logical reductivist would never have started painting wooly mammoths on cave walls. It would make no sense. They're not real, just some soot and clay on cold stone. Yet we saw them as spirits, abstracted representatives of the real. Inquisitiveness and fantasy drove and continues to drive who we are.

Sam Kade

Victor wrote: »

People could also be mistaken, misled or just not well educated. Look at how long it takes kids to work out Santa.

Then there's people who are intoxicated.

Imagine you are out in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night with nobody around and you hear screaming. What conclusion do you come to? Banshee?

Or, if you are in the know, a fox?

Did you ever hear a fox barking mating call etc.?

Ann22

(Oops sorry managed to quote from another thread. ..ignore that bit)
Some years ago my husband said every time he looked at the clock it was 22:22....then he started seeing it everywhere and so did I. He has a pile of photos he took when he saw it from serial numbers at work/numerous license plates everywhere/emergency phone numbers displayed in a workplace/a wee cube thing from a broken clotheshanger sizes 22 lying on the street that he happened to be kicking along/a photo sent of my nephew with the number written on his jersey/he paused the tv during a football match and two jerseys were on screen both 22..He was the 2222nd person to use his workplaces atm machine....I could go on and on.

nozzferrahhtoo

pone2012 wrote: »

Que war between those who cannot provide evidence for/against in 3...2..1

Not really much of a prediction given the nature of the thread.

pone2012 wrote: »

Fwiw I like to keep an open mind

So do I, but unfortunately "open mind" does not mean what a lot of people think it means. A lot of people seem to think it means that you should lend an automatic minimum level of credence to even the most egregiously nonsense claims.

What it ACTUALLY means however is to be willing to accept as credible, or true, any claim that is actually presented with substantiation..... regardless of whether you like the claim (or its implications) or not.

pone2012 wrote: »

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/01/as-a-psychiatrist-i-diagnose-mental-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/

I have seen some horrific material of people who clearly had physical issues at the level of the brain who were simply used by people wanting to claim demonic possession exists.

Derren Brown worked, for example, with a person who claimed to be a ghost hunter. One of the videos he showed as "evidence" for demonic possession was very clearly people standing around chanting and praying at a man who was obviously having a text book ceasure.

Horrific to watch someone obviously ill and in need of medical attention being exploited to fulfill a narrative.

pone2012 wrote: »

You nor I, I imagine ..have had none whatsoever, and our knowledge most likely pales in comparison..So we can assume he has a greater breath of knowledge and understanding of the phenomenon. Not to mention he risks his professional reputation speaking out about the topic

None of which is relevant AT ALL. You are basically, as you have done on other threads before, moving to the "appeal to authority" fallacy. You seem to be often impressed by credentials. Impressed enough to entirely miss the fact the person making the claim has offered ZERO evidence for the claim.

Credentials say nothing. The evidence presented WITH a claim does.

pone2012 wrote: »

Yes because explaining nonphysical phenomena is that easy isnt it?

Doing honest double blind experiments is easy. For example Sam Parnia, a person heavily biased TOWARDS the paranormal and the after life, is still an honest scientist.

And one of the things Parnia did was to construct a strong double blind experiment to test the claims of OBE during NDE. His methodology was good to my knowledge.

What was found? Nothing. Not a single shred of supporting evidence that people describing OBE actually were floating around the room outside their body AT ALL.

Bias and credentials say nothing in the face of a well constructed study.

Funny how all evidence for "non physical occurrences" entirely falls away with even the simplest of sound methodology put into place. Because invariably the people offering anecdotes of "non physical phenomenon" make claims off the back of it that very much CAN be tested and verified.

OBE itself, for example, might be "non physical" in that some kind of "soul" or "spirit" is leaving the body (they claim). But they ALSO claim to be floating over the operating table looking down on their own body and the doctors working on it. And that very much CAN be tested and verified.

nozzferrahhtoo

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Badgers can also making a screeching sound when they are fighting at night. Sounds freaky.

Not to mention the human baby like sounds of cats having sex.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

These things have been recorded across all cultures for pretty much all of human existence so I think that there must be something in it.

I think there is, I just do not suspect it is anything supernatural. Just something innate in us due to how we evolved to have what we call "A theory of mind" and the way we are able to create a representation of the minds of others in our own.

For example when people did a study on this with children and their concepts of death they found that children were aware of the fact dead people no longer need to eat or sleep and so on, but they still saw the dead people as having goals and desires.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I don't think every experience can be written off as fraud or mental illness.

I agree, sometimes a person simply believes a given narrative themselves. That does not mean they are being fraudulent or mentally ill. Just mistaken or deluded.

And when people are claiming to have magical powers for example, I expect most of them are simply charlatans and exploiting people. But I think some people genuinely do believe, for whatever reason, they do have the magical power they claim to.

And most of them continue to believe it until reality hits them hard. The example that always jumps to mind is that of Yanagi Ryuken who believed he could defeat people with his chi martial arts without even touching them. A delusion he was, hopefully, divested of when he finally stepped into the ring with an actual fighter. The result, unfortunately, was a video of an old man being punched repeatedly in the face.

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Can transubstantiation at mass be considered "paranormal"? Catholics witness that every week.

Not sure even many Catholics know what to consider it. I have a collection of their magic crackers in a drawer somewhere that I was experimenting on once and I spoke with a load of Catholics in that time.

They seemed to fall into three main groups. One group thought the ceremony was entirely symbolic only, nothing more. Another group thought a real but spiritual (and hence conveniently entirely undetectable) change occurs in the crackers. And a third group thought some very real actual physical change occurred in the crackers (the group my "study" was aimed at).

I could not estimate how relatively big each of the groups were, but that they were not all even remotely on the same page was evident.

nozzferrahhtoo

railer201 wrote: »

Just because you personally have never had a paranormal experience, doesn't mean that the paranormal doesn't exist.

And equally just because people report (and often distort and exaggerate) unusual personal experiences does not mean the paranormal DOES exist.

railer201 wrote: »

whether they want to wrestle with closed minds on the subject is another matter.

Nothing close minded about refusing to accept claims based on insufficient or entirely no evidence. Quite the opposite in fact.

railer201 wrote: »

Unfortunately, ghosts can't be captured and put in a specimen jar to convince unbelievers.

Did anyone ask specifically for that level of evidence though? The problem is not that such people can not present that specific evidence. The problem is that people making such claims can not present ANY arguments, evidence, data or reasoning that suggests the claims to be credible (let alone true).

railer201 wrote: »

It's not entirely subjective either as there can be witnesses to any particular event.

How is that not subjective

Also the problem of subjectivity is not just the witness, it is the narrative people put on what they witnessed after the event.

NIMAN

People will see something in anything if they want to.

I have been hearing a lot about robins recently, of the feathered variety. How its a sign of a dearly departed visiting you!

Now I see at least a dozen robins in my garden each and every single morning when I'm having breakfast. I am sure most gardens are the same. Most people will see them if they simply look.

But if you look out into your garden after the death of a family member or close friend, see a robin and assume that the dead sent them along as a sign of an afterlife, then for me you are severely deluded. This is the perfect example of seeing what you want to see to prove your own point of view.

Same goes for those who think they see 11:11 a lot. They also see countless other random times, but it doesn't fit into their narrative of weirdness and so are discounted. But if they look at their watch and see 11:11 its some huge sign.

GerryDerpy

Ann22 wrote: »

(Oops sorry managed to quote from another thread. ..ignore that bit)
Some years ago my husband said every time he looked at the clock it was 22:22....then he started seeing it everywhere and so did I. He has a pile of photos he took when he saw it from serial numbers at work/numerous license plates everywhere/emergency phone numbers displayed in a workplace/a wee cube thing from a broken clotheshanger sizes 22 lying on the street that he happened to be kicking along/a photo sent of my nephew with the number written on his jersey/he paused the tv during a football match and two jerseys were on screen both 22..He was the 2222nd person to use his workplaces atm machine....I could go on and on.

This is a result of confirmation bias.

GerryDerpy

pone2012 wrote: »

I'm sorry Gerry, but I'd highly doubt that..the footage itself is close to 30 years old, and the man that documented it is an anthropologist.. The former was unaware the original footage was aired....

The later footage was documented at the request of the man in question as he'd claimed to have had a revelation after a 2 year retreat alone in the Borneo Jungle( confirmed by his western students accounts) and wanted to document just enough of himself to show the world we are greater than we believe..

That is why the scientists were present.to rule out trickery ...not to mention the fact that the man who took the footage is himself a scientist

Tldr ; a bunch of scientists didn't stand around facilitating a charlatan... They just had no idea how to explain what they witnessed... And still don't to this day...almost 3 decades later

Well from the bits I have seen it screams con man to me. Very old simple tricks. I would therefore question the abilities and/or motivation of the observing scientists.

Sure one clip I seen shows them using a bog standard multimeter to try measure the voltage from the man's "energy". That won't work for high frequency voltage. So they weren't good enough sorry.

jigglypuffstuff

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Not really much of a prediction given the nature of the thread.



So do I, but unfortunately "open mind" does not mean what a lot of people think it means. A lot of people seem to think it means that you should lend an automatic minimum level of credence to even the most egregiously nonsense claims.

What it ACTUALLY means however is to be willing to accept as credible, or true, any claim that is actually presented with substantiation..... regardless of whether you like the claim (or its implications) or not.



I have seen some horrific material of people who clearly had physical issues at the level of the brain who were simply used by people wanting to claim demonic possession exists.

Derren Brown worked, for example, with a person who claimed to be a ghost hunter. One of the videos he showed as "evidence" for demonic possession was very clearly people standing around chanting and praying at a man who was obviously having a text book ceasure.

Horrific to watch someone obviously ill and in need of medical attention being exploited to fulfill a narrative.



None of which is relevant AT ALL. You are basically, as you have done on other threads before, moving to the "appeal to authority" fallacy. You seem to be often impressed by credentials. Impressed enough to entirely miss the fact the person making the claim has offered ZERO evidence for the claim.

Credentials say nothing. The evidence presented WITH a claim does.



Doing honest double blind experiments is easy. For example Sam Parnia, a person heavily biased TOWARDS the paranormal and the after life, is still an honest scientist.

And one of the things Parnia did was to construct a strong double blind experiment to test the claims of OBE during NDE. His methodology was good to my knowledge.

What was found? Nothing. Not a single shred of supporting evidence that people describing OBE actually were floating around the room outside their body AT ALL.

Bias and credentials say nothing in the face of a well constructed study.

Funny how all evidence for "non physical occurrences" entirely falls away with even the simplest of sound methodology put into place. Because invariably the people offering anecdotes of "non physical phenomenon" make claims off the back of it that very much CAN be tested and verified.

OBE itself, for example, might be "non physical" in that some kind of "soul" or "spirit" is leaving the body (they claim). But they ALSO claim to be floating over the operating table looking down on their own body and the doctors working on it. And that very much CAN be tested and verified.

Open mind is not lending credence to anything.. But equally it isn't laboratory experiment or it didn't happen...there's sufficient evidence present in the video provided considering scientists are testing to try and falsify his claims... Which they couldn't

The evidence is present in the documented video... You don't believe it..go and seek out the man himself to try and disprove it.. Many people have searched for him, and all return saying the same thing.. He and what he does is as real as the skin on your body...that's scientists, students and patients

And FYI, Parnia is a Medical doctor... In no position to be labelled an authority on the topic...Try Bruce Greysons work.. If you're going to discuss NDES /OBES that is