Existing offers shinanigans

qrx

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe that every property I go to view already has an offer on. Especially when weeks later they are often still for sale and doing viewings.

Do estate agents need to keep legal documentation of offers and if so am I entitled to ask for proof?

davo10

It's not hard to believe given the shortage of available properties and the demand for houses/apartments.

Properties for sale may have offers on them, but that does not mean the offer has been accepted by the seller, it just means that if you are interested, you have to make a bid above the current highest offer.

Just set your limit and bid accordingly.

CeilingFly

Yes, all offers must be by a verifiable format. Text or email is the usual form.

Remember, currently there's a shortage and people will have bids on multiple properties.

qrx

CeilingFly wrote: »

Yes, all offers must be by a verifiable format. Text or email is the usual form.

Remember, currently there's a shortage and people will have bids on multiple properties.

So the next question would be how long should it take to go sale agreed? For people making multiple bids, how long before the EA calls their bluff and the offer is taken off the cards? Can I ask when the offer was made and can I expect an honest answer?

Michael D Not Higgins

qrx wrote: »

So the next question would be how long should it take to go sale agreed? For people making multiple bids, how long before the EA calls their bluff and the offer is taken off the cards? Can I ask when the offer was made and can I expect an honest answer?

Why would the EA tell you that? They're working for the seller to get them the best price, if telling you the last bid was a month ago doesn't get them the best price then they aren't doing their job.

davo10

qrx wrote: »

So the next question would be how long should it take to go sale agreed? For people making multiple bids, how long before the EA calls their bluff and the offer is taken off the cards? Can I ask when the offer was made and can I expect an honest answer?

Op, that's up to the property owner, not the EA. The property stays on the market as long as the bids keep coming and/or the owner is satisfied with the highest bid. The EA is just a facilitator, he/she is not in a position to close the bidding without instruction from the owner.

qrx

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Why would the EA tell you that? They're working for the seller to get them the best price, if telling you the last bid was a month ago doesn't get them the best price then they aren't doing their job.

Because a bid from a month ago clearly is not a genuine bid. I take your point about why would they give me that information. Which is also my point that there is an element of dishonesty or deceivement going on in the market.

qrx

davo10 wrote: »

Op, that's up to the property owner, not the EA. The property stays on the market as long as the bids keep coming and/or the owner is satisfied with the highest bid. The EA is just a facilitator, he/she is not in a position to close the bidding without instruction from the owner.

But it's up to the EA to say sorry that bid was a month ago and the bidder is long gone and not answering my calls. Or for whatever reason, after an elapsed period of time it can no longer be considered valid. Effectively there are no offers. Or at best, there WAS an offer as opposed to there IS an offer on.

Michael D Not Higgins

qrx wrote: »

Because a bid from a month ago clearly is not a genuine bid. I take your point about why would they give me that information. Which is also my point that there is an element of dishonesty or deceivement going on in the market.

There's no deceit, the EA is not working for you so is clearly not going to share all the information. If you were the seller you'd have a different perspective and I'm sure you wouldn't be happy about your agent telling bidders the ins and outs of all bids thus far received.

davo10

qrx wrote: »

But it's up to the EA to say sorry that bid was a month ago and the bidder is long gone and not answering my calls. Or for whatever reason, after an elapsed period of time it can no longer be considered valid. Effectively there are no offers. Or at best, there WAS an offer as opposed to there IS an offer on.

What does this mean? Do you know how property bidding works?

A property seller may be in no rush to accept a bid, he/she may happily waits months or in some cases years as the prices of properties rise, to get the offer they are looking for.

If you make a bid today, would you be happy for an EA to call you in a month to say your bid has elapsed and is no longer being considered?

qrx

davo10 wrote: »

What does this mean? Do you know how property bidding works?

A property seller may be in no rush to accept a bid, he/she may happily waits months or in some cases years as the prices of properties rise, to get the offer they are looking for.

If you make a bid today, would you be happy for an EA to call you in a month to say your bid has elapsed and is no longer being considered?

To be honest, only a fool would keep their offer on the table and wait around for the vendor to find a higher bid.

And that is my point. Vendors are getting offers, delaying and waiting for more. When they don't get it those offers are then gone hence why property is still for sale weeks and months later. But any new bidders are being told there is an offer in for the asking. In a case like.this, no there isn't an offer in. It's deceitful on the part.of.the EA.

What I expect is that an offer for the asking be accepted and sale agreed asap (as in within a few days) unless there is another active bidder.

Thanks for the advice. I have a clear understanding as to what is going on now.

Peregrinus

qrx wrote: »

To be honest, only a fool would keep their offer on the table and wait around for the vendor to find a higher bid.

And that is my point. Vendors are getting offers, delaying and waiting for more. When they don't get it those offers are then gone hence why property is still for sale weeks and months later. But any new bidders are being told there is an offer in for the asking. In a case like.this, no there isn't an offer in. It's deceitful on the part.of.the EA.

Normally an offer stands until (a) the vendor rejects it, or (b) the offeror withdraws it. It's possible to put in a conditional or time-limited offeror ("this offer lapses if not accepted by next Monday") but that's rare.

qrx wrote: »

What I expect is that an offer for the asking be accepted and sale agreed asap (as in within a few days) unless there is another active bidder.

I don't think that's a realistic expectation, to be honest. Particularly in a rising market, the vendor will likely want to complete his intended sales campaign, and may simply sit on offers that come in early in the campaign.

davo10

qrx wrote: »

To be honest, only a fool would keep their offer on the table and wait around for the vendor to find a higher bid.

And that is my point. Vendors are getting offers, delaying and waiting for more. When they don't get it those offers are then gone hence why property is still for sale weeks and months later. But any new bidders are being told there is an offer in for the asking. In a case like.this, no there isn't an offer in. It's deceitful on the part.of.the EA.

What I expect is that an offer for the asking be accepted and sale agreed asap (as in within a few days) unless there is another active bidder.

Thanks for the advice. I have a clear understanding as to what is going on now.

Would you be concerned that if you put a time limit on an which is below a price which a vendor will accept, that the vendor will immediately reject it and refuse to accept future offers from you?

EAs and vendors think people who put time limits on bids are messers and they will usually ignore them unless the offer matches what they believe is the maximum amount which can be achieved. Selling/buying a property takes patience, no vendor is going to accept a bid today if they think they might get €25k more next month.

Peregrinus

davo10 wrote: »

Would you be concerned that if you put a time limit on an which is below a price which a vendor will accept, that the vendor will immediately reject it and refuse to accept future offers from you?

If the offer is below what the vendor will accept, he is (by definition) going to reject it whether or not it is time-limited.

As for refusing to accept future offers, no, no really. He'd be cutting off his nose to spite his face to refuse an offer for any reason other than that he didn't want to accept it.

davo10 wrote: »

EAs and vendors think people who put time limits on bids are messers and they will usually ignore them unless the offer matches what they believe is the maximum amount which can be achieved. Selling/buying a property takes patience, no vendor is going to accept a bid today if they think they might get €25k more next month.

Which may be why, as I said, such offers are rarely made. But close-out offers, as they're known, do happen and they are sometimes accepted.

davo10

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the offer is below what the vendor will accept, he is (by definition) going to reject it whether or not it is time-limited.

As for refusing to accept future offers, no, no really. He'd be cutting off his nose to spite his face to refuse an offer for any reason other than that he didn't want to accept it.


Which may be why, as I said, such offers are rarely made. But close-out offers, as they're known, do happen and they are sometimes accepted.

I appreciate that, final offers made in earnest are certainly a useful ploy when making a last ditch offer.

But I don't think that is what the op is posting about. He/she seems to be taking the bidding process in isolation and assuming whatever the highest offer is at a certain time, that is what the property sells for. As bids are discounted after a certain time, the "price" lowers. What he/she doesn't seem to allow for is that there is another important element in the process, the acceptance of the bid by the vendor. It really does not matter if bids are time limited, if the vendor won't accept the amount bid, then the process will continue regardless of duration until a acceptable bid is received.

I've bought and sold a lot of properties over the years and dealt with a lot of EAs, never once have I dealt with anyone who put an offer in with a time limit. It has certainly come up in conversation many times with EAs, usually followed with "I wouldn't take any notice, he says that with every bid, he's a messer". There are just too many potential buyers out there to be making a snap decision to sell within a short timeframe, odds favour another buyer making a similar or better offer.

Peregrinus

Once the vendor accepts an offer, the sale process is over.

Up to that point, the vendor can respond to an offer in one of two ways. He can say "no", or he can say "right, thanks for that, I'll see how things go". If the offer is a time-limited one, the whole point of that is to prevent the owner from saying "I'll see how things go"; the offeror wants his offer either accepted or rejected, and one way or the other he will get his wish.

If the offer is in the usual, not time-limited form and the vendor says "thanks, I'll see how things go", he's well aware that the longer he leaves it, the weaker the offer becomes. Obviously, he hopes to get a higher offer; equally obviously, if he comes back in a few weeks time and says he'd like to accept, he runs the risk that the offeror in the meantime has found a house he likes better and is no longer interested. Even if that hasn't happened, the offeror knows that the vendor isn't getting the big bids he so fondly expected, and is having to adjust his expectations, and the offeror may decide to try and drive the price down a bit.

But the bottom line is that the offer is out there until is accepted, rejected or withdrawn. The longer it's out there, the greater the chance that it will be withdrawn if and when the vendor tries to accept it. But, assuming it was a serious offer in the first place, there's a sporting chance that it does represent a price at which, or close to which, the vendor can close a deal.

qrx

davo10 wrote: »

I appreciate that, final offers made in earnest are certainly a useful ploy when making a last ditch offer.

But I don't think that is what the op is posting about. He/she seems to be taking the bidding process in isolation and assuming whatever the highest offer is at a certain time, that is what the property sells for. As bids are discounted after a certain time, the "price" lowers. What he/she doesn't seem to allow for is that there is another important element in the process, the acceptance of the bid by the vendor. It really does not matter if bids are time limited, if the vendor won't accept the amount bid, then the process will continue regardless of duration until a acceptable bid is received.

You know, that actually makes sense

spaceHopper

OK Here's how I would approch it. Ask the EA some questions,

Is the vendor ready to accpet that offer?

Tell me about the other bidder,
how many are there?
are they in a chain?
have you verifed they have finacne in place?

Next
stress you have approval in principle from the bank
a deposit
are not in a chain,
you can close at the vendors pace

You like the house but are looking at others, even go as far as to ask have they any similar properties.

davo10

spaceHopper wrote: »

OK Here's how I would approch it. Ask the EA some questions,

Is the vendor ready to accpet that offer?

Tell me about the other bidder,
how many are there?
are they in a chain?
have you verifed they have finacne in place?

Next
stress you have approval in principle from the bank
a deposit
are not in a chain,
you can close at the vendors pace

You like the house but are looking at others, even go as far as to ask have they any similar properties.

You would not be entitled to any information about other bidders, why ask what you will not be told?

qrx

davo10 wrote: »

You would not be entitled to any information about other bidders, why ask what you will not be told?

Of course you are entitled to know the other bidders situation. Personally I will not get into a bid without this information and I find EA's are happy to divulge whether bidder has mortgage approval or whether they are a cash buyer. Whether they are truthful or not is another thing. EA has a duty to weed out piss takers who are not seriously committed, the type that have gotten their mortgage approval off an online calculator and are bidding around cause ah sure you never know we might actually go ahead and move at some stage. Using bids as a form of bookmarking properties they like.

C3PO

qrx wrote: »

Of course you are entitled to know the other bidders situation.

Eh ... no you're not!

You might like to know it but in no way are you entitled to it!

spaceHopper

davo10 wrote: »

You would not be entitled to any information about other bidders, why ask what you will not be told?

I always asked, that way they knew you aren't a piss taker and that they can't take the piss with you. They don't have to tell you but if you are negotiating such a big purchase with somebody you have to treat them with respect so normally they will. Of course they could lie.

qrx

C3PO wrote: »

Eh ... no you're not!

You might like to know it but in no way are you entitled to it!

Not very smart though for an EA to refuse that information don't you think?Telling the truth does not weaken the vendors position in any way so only reason to refuse is because your suspicions are true. I'd say it even helps the vendor. There's no suspicions, we're all happy to get bidding based purely on our assessment of the value of the property.

pwurple

Peregrinus wrote: »

Once the vendor accepts an offer, the sale process is over.

Sorry to butt in, but it's actually not the end of the process. Gazumping is not illegal in Ireland, and sale agreed means nothing.

We were gazumped 3 times after going sale agreed on different properties.

Also, a lot happens between offer accepted and sale going through. Contracts, searches, engineer inspections etc. All can affect the price, or change to another bidder (cash) etc

qrx

pwurple wrote: »

Sorry to butt in, but it's actually not the end of the process. Gazumping is not illegal in Ireland, and sale agreed means nothing.

We were gazumped 3 times after going sale agreed on different properties.

Also, a lot happens between offer accepted and sale going through. Contracts, searches, engineer inspections etc. All can affect the price, or change to another bidder (cash) etc

Do you mind me asking what happens with solicitor fees when you are gazumped? Do you still have to pay for the work done so far?

Graham

qrx wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what happens with solicitor fees when you are gazumped? Do you still have to pay for the work done so far?

It would be a very generous solicitor that didn't charge you for the work he had completed on your behalf up to the point you were gazumped.

davo10

qrx wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what happens with solicitor fees when you are gazumped? Do you still have to pay for the work done so far?

Unfortunately the solicitor's agreement is with you, not with the vendor nor the gazumper. Whatever work he/she undertakes on your behalf, you are liable for the fees.

pwurple

qrx wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what happens with solicitor fees when you are gazumped? Do you still have to pay for the work done so far?

You pay. Well, we bundled it in with the eventual purchase, but yes. That, engineer reports, valuation, whatever else you do... liable for it all. No house to show for it.

Very frustrating it was. But sure look, we got there in the end.

Peregrinus

qrx wrote: »

Of course you are entitled to know the other bidders situation . . .

You're not entitled to know, but you're certainly entitled to ask, and if you do ask you may very well be told - a certain amount, at any rate. If in fact the offer already received is conditional, subject to finance, dependent on a chain, etc, etc, then the rational vendor will certainly be interested in receiving other offers that are not restricted or limited in this way. So he will respond to queries in a way that encourages others to make their offers.

Remember, receiving an offer that he doesn't, in the end, accept is no skin off the vendor's nose.

endacl

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

They're working for the seller to get them the best price,.

No they're not. They're working for themselves to get the best commission.

jimmycrackcorm

CeilingFly wrote:

Yes, all offers must be by a verifiable format. Text or email is the usual form.

There is no legal requirement for that. Like anything else it's just written confirmation.

qrx wrote:

And that is my point. Vendors are getting offers, delaying and waiting for more. When they don't get it those offers are then gone hence why property is still for sale weeks and months later. But any new bidders are being told there is an offer in for the asking. In a case like.this, no there isn't an offer in. It's deceitful on the part.of.the EA.

Why would you assume that the offers are gone. And even if they do lapse an offer sets a price point.

At the end of the day, nothing is set in stone until contracts are signed so there's no point complaining about the process up until then.

If somebody really wants a property then they should make an offer that seals the deal.