Clause 23 - general play cut to Cat 1

mighty magpie

I've posted my scores in a few other threads.

41 off 9 saturday
44 off 8 Sunday

Thought I avoided the ESR as I beat css by 4 or more 11 rounds apart. As of Monday evening my handicap was 7.2.

Received an email tonight that my handicap has been reduced to 5.2 by a clause 23 general play deduction. Is this within the rules?

In over 3 days my handicap has reduced by 4 strokes.

Macker1

Great scoring that certainly indicates your play deserves a lower handicap which I'm sure you are happy to achieve.

Just a little bit of info from a quick google.

Clause 23 of the CONGU Unified Handicapping System covers the “Annual Review” of handicaps (these should be completed by all clubs for all members,) and it gives guidance on “General Play” adjustments. Clubs can apply a “General Play” adjustment to a non-category 1 golfer’s handicap if it is felt to be too high, or low, and not representative of current playing ability. It basically allows clubs to protect against “bandits,” and to re-set handicaps of those who can no longer be competitive because of poor health or advancing age.

If a decision is taken to reduce a handicap, a minimum of one full stroke must be taken and there is no maximum. However, a category 2 player’s handicap cannot be cut to category 1 without agreement from the area authority.

FixdePitchmark

mighty magpie wrote: »

I've posted my scores in a few other threads.

41 off 9 saturday
44 off 8 Sunday

Thought I avoided the ESR as I beat css by 4 or more 11 rounds apart. As of Monday evening my handicap was 7.2.

Received an email tonight that my handicap has been reduced to 5.2 by a clause 23 general play deduction. Is this within the rules?

In over 3 days my handicap has reduced by 4 strokes.

Some scoring

what was your lowest ever handicap ?

mighty magpie

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

mighty magpie wrote: »

I've posted my scores in a few other threads.

41 off 9 saturday
44 off 8 Sunday

Thought I avoided the ESR as I beat css by 4 or more 11 rounds apart. As of Monday evening my handicap was 7.2.

Received an email tonight that my handicap has been reduced to 5.2 by a clause 23 general play deduction. Is this within the rules?

In over 3 days my handicap has reduced by 4 strokes.

Some scoring

what was your lowest ever handicap ?

This is my first year being a member. Started at 12 back in May. Put a big marker on my head by shooting my best 2 scores ever at the weekend.

Macker1

mighty magpie wrote: »

This is my first year being a member. Started at 12 back in May. Put a big marker on my head by shooting my best 2 scores ever at the weekend.

Holy Jaysus you only joined club 4 months ago ??????

That is some Hcap reduction in that short space of time. Your starting hcap of 12 was based on what 3 scores.

mighty magpie

Joined in January but only got issued official in May. Two +14s and a +15.

I've played 25 comps since then.

Currently 2nd in golfer of the year with 6 more comps left. This clause 23 has ruined my chances.

fred funk }{

Ruined your chances? Are you being serious? You've clearly being playing with a HC that was too high and it was swiftly reduced (rightly) to your correct level.

Goldenjohn

Have you previously held a handicap?
If so, what was your lowest?

charlieIRL

I think you are playing absolutely fantastic golf at the moment and your scores and handicap reduction are a reflection of this.

Obviously you are putting in a lot of work and it's paying off.

mighty magpie

Goldenjohn, No I haven't.

Fred, look I'm not looking to play off an inflated handicap here. I asked a question about getting cut to cat1 through a clause 23.

I'm happy enough to earn a handicap reduction through normal means and have been doing that all year with 0.1s included when I play poorly. I just feel the timing of the clause 23 is a bit **** when we are in the closing weeks of the GOY.

I'd love to compare my stats against the well established 3 and 4 handicaps in the club. I can guarantee their birdie par and bogey numbers per round are much much better than mine. I feel the comittee have only penalised a new member as they don't want someone upsetting the status quo.

Golfgraffix

They would have needed a code from the GUI to process the general play reduction. I did it today for one of our members. Email at 10 and a reply within 4 hours with permission and the code

Surprised you were given 12 to start, maybe should have been nearer 10

J

redzerdrog

The original hcap seems the be the problem. I think you would have gotten a an absolute max of 7.5 in my home course.

The cuts don't like like anything untoward is going on and look very much deserved based on your scoring.

Yes your stats probably wouldn't compare to a 3 or 4 hcapper as that is another level below but I'd imagine you would come out ok against 5 or 6 hcappers stats wise

newport2

mighty magpie wrote: »

Joined in January but only got issued official in May. Two +14s and a +15.

I've played 25 comps since then.

Currently 2nd in golfer of the year with 6 more comps left. This clause 23 has ruined my chances.

If you didn't get cut you still wouldn't have won golfer of the year. Your handicap would have won it.

Congrats, you've made it to category 1. Go out and continue playing like you are and you'll genuinely win golfer of the year.

You shot 4 over on Saturday and level par on Sunday. Why do you think you have no hope now? Repeat that and you're still getting 37 and 41 points this weekend.

newport2

mighty magpie wrote: »

I've posted my scores in a few other threads.

41 off 9 saturday
44 off 8 Sunday

Thought I avoided the ESR as I beat css by 4 or more 11 rounds apart.

How did you avoid ESR btw? Was the CSS 38 or more on Saturday?

mighty magpie

newport2 wrote: »

How did you avoid ESR btw? Was the CSS 38 or more on Saturday?

I avoided ESR because I had the initial trigger 11 rounds before saturday which resulted in an ESR of 0.0 due to the number of rounds in between exceptional scores. Obviously sunday resulted in the handicap committee getting involved.

Yeah I understand now that the initial handicap was too high but i never felt I was a 5. Only time will tell if I will stay there or not.

PARlance

mighty magpie wrote: »

I avoided ESR because I had the initial trigger 11 rounds before saturday which resulted in an ESR of 0.0 due to the number of rounds in between exceptional scores. Obviously sunday resulted in the handicap committee getting involved.

Yeah I understand now that the initial handicap was too high but i never felt I was a 5. Only time will tell if I will stay there or not.

I think the Clause 23 is a fair one. They probably realise that they got your initial HC a little wrong (at the time), that you just missed out on an ESR and that you're playing better than your HC quite frequently.

If there's ever the case for it, it's now. The only issue I would have is if they weren't consistent with this approach. I.e has the guy leading GOTY went under their radar.

Tbh, it was clear as day that they got your initial HC wrong by a few shots from the start but that happens with someone who is new to the game and has talent. It's a remarkable achievement to get so low so soon after not playing the game much.

Dublin Spur

mighty magpie wrote: »

I've posted my scores in a few other threads.

41 off 9 saturday
44 off 8 Sunday

Thought I avoided the ESR as I beat css by 4 or more 11 rounds apart. As of Monday evening my handicap was 7.2.

Received an email tonight that my handicap has been reduced to 5.2 by a clause 23 general play deduction. Is this within the rules?

In over 3 days my handicap has reduced by 4 strokes.

congratulations - great achievement

newport2

mighty magpie wrote: »

I avoided ESR because I had the initial trigger 11 rounds before saturday which resulted in an ESR of 0.0 due to the number of rounds in between exceptional scores. Obviously sunday resulted in the handicap committee getting involved.

Yeah I understand now that the initial handicap was too high but i never felt I was a 5. Only time will tell if I will stay there or not.

Congratulations, I'm sure you'll be fine.

At least you don't have to worry about ESR anymore now that you're in category 1

mighty magpie

PARlance wrote: »

I think the Clause 23 is a fair one. They probably realise that they got your initial HC a little wrong (at the time), that you just missed out on an ESR and that you're playing better than your HC quite frequently.

If there's ever the case for it, it's now. The only issue I would have is if they weren't consistent with this approach. I.e has the guy leading GOTY went under their radar.

Tbh, it was clear as day that they got your initial HC wrong by a few shots from the start but that happens with someone who is new to the game and has talent. It's a remarkable achievement to get so low so soon after not playing the game much.

To be fair to the handicap committee, the guys in 1st and 3rd are cat 1 golfers (2 and 4) who i believe cannot be cut by the clause 23 but more importantly have been members for years so I would say their handicaps are as accurate as they can be.

There are two other golfers in the club (established members) that have shot 42 points twice this year and from my knowledge have not received a clause 23.

TBH PARlance i've been playing this game for 10 years on and off with the society and friends. This is just my first year joining a club and making a good run at it. 7/8 wouldn't have shocked me but 5 seemed unachievable and maybe still is.

Russman

Honestly, it sounds like, on balance, its probably fair. Your initial handicap was likely a few shots too high and, in a convoluted kind of way, the "system" is catching up with you now. Personally I'd lean towards thinking a cut from 7 to 5 is possibly a little over zealous in that handicap range, but its splitting hairs.

I assume the 41pts & 44pts weren't on consecutive days ? or am I reading it wrong, if you avoided an ESR ?

Great playing by the way.

mighty magpie

Russman wrote: »

Honestly, it sounds like, on balance, its probably fair. Your initial handicap was likely a few shots too high and, in a convoluted kind of way, the "system" is catching up with you now. Personally I'd lean towards thinking a cut from 7 to 5 is possibly a little over zealous in that handicap range, but its splitting hairs.

I assume the 41pts & 44pts weren't on consecutive days ? or am I reading it wrong, if you avoided an ESR ?

Great playing by the way.

Yes there were however i had a 42 off 10, 11 rounds ago and ESR states a no change if greater than 10 rounds.

I suppose if i didn't have that initial 42, the 41/44 from the weekend may have resulted in an ESR of 1 or 2 and left me in a similar position.

Driving range tonight so.

FixdePitchmark

Your an interesting case to get that low that quick. Fair play.

Did you play society golf ?

mighty magpie

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Your an interesting case to get that low that quick. Fair play.

Did you play society golf ?

Yeah once a month for the past few years but plenty of golf in between especially during the summer.

big_drive

It all sounds pretty correct to me. I wouldn't let the Golfer of the Year thing bother you, that shouldn't be a motivator to keep your handicap higher

FixdePitchmark

mighty magpie wrote: »

Yeah once a month for the past few years but plenty of golf in between especially during the summer.

What was your society handicap ?

Russman

mighty magpie wrote: »

Yes there were however i had a 42 off 10, 11 rounds ago and ESR states a no change if greater than 10 rounds.

I suppose if i didn't have that initial 42, the 41/44 from the weekend may have resulted in an ESR of 1 or 2 and left me in a similar position.

Driving range tonight so.

Ahh right, ok, so you had 42pts off 10, then 11 rounds later, you had a 41 and a 44 back to back ? You still would only have had one ESR though as the 3rd card starts a new sequence.

Sounds to me like the system would have caught up with you anyway, an ESR or Clause 23 is really only speeding up what was probably inevitable. Personally I disagree with Clause 23 being used based on singles cards as I think the CSS system will naturally catch up eventually.

Honestly though, most of the time there's not a lot of difference between 5 & 7, its just a couple of putts or a couple more "up and downs" that you make. I wouldn't stress over it. I know I'd rather the satisfaction of getting back to 5 over any prize. Its really when you get below 5 that the fun starts with much fewer shots to play with.

mighty magpie

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What was your society handicap ?

I was playing off 6 but our cut line is usually high 20s / low 30s and i got fined 4 shots over 2 years for missing 8 outings due to surgery.

Seve OB

I was going to suggest that it might be unfair to say OP's original handicap was to high. Given 12 after handing in 3 cards of +14,+15, +15, but we don't know how those cards were made up, ie were there loads of birdies and pars with a couple of disasters here and there or were they just solid bogey rounds. Maybe 12 at the time was fair and lots of golf and practice in the meantime has paid off.

But he was off a society handicap of 6! so that then gets me thinking maybe it was more than fair.

OP, it is silly to think you can't play to 5. You just shot +4 and level par back to back. You are on an obvious roll so keep rolling. If you want to win the GOTY, go and do it, but don't rely on an unfair overinflated handicap to help you. Win it on merit.

Regarding ESR, if that was triggered 10 rounds ago and lapsed, why did it not start again from your round on Saturday?

IMO, the jump from 7.2 to 5.2 might be slightly harsh based on your results, but it was well earned base on your last 2 rounds. I'm sure if you had a long time established handicap, it probably wouldn't of happened, but fact is you are new and improving fast so that's what the clause is there for.

mighty magpie

From memory, they were fairly standard bogey rounds with maybe a birdie/double bogey thrown in.

I'm not sure if ESR actually lapses after 10 rounds. I think it uses round 1 and 2 that are at least 4 better than CSS. If that gap is greater than 10 round then no reduction is given. It then resets. Saturday was my round 2.

Yeah I understand the need for this clause but I really hope i'm not just a once off in the club and that it's used fairly. To me it seems like there is no method to the cut, just a finger in the air cut of 2 full shots.

I'm definitely taking this as a positive in my game.

Rikand

mighty magpie wrote: »

I avoided ESR because I had the initial trigger 11 rounds before saturday which resulted in an ESR of 0.0 due to the number of rounds in between exceptional scores. Obviously sunday resulted in the handicap committee getting involved.

Yeah I understand now that the initial handicap was too high but i never felt I was a 5. Only time will tell if I will stay there or not.

Almost reads like you were watching the rounds to see when you could shoot a good round again.

Russman wrote: »

Sounds to me like the system would have caught up with you anyway, an ESR or Clause 23 is really only speeding up what was probably inevitable.

He just didn't plan on getting caught until after he won golfer of the year

mighty magpie

I didn't know what ESR was until sunday.

If i didn't plan on getting cut I wouldn't have shot +4 through 36 holes.