Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Non book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

homerun_homer

There is a barge in one of the stills if you freeze frame it, and apparently this is where they have the chains from.

In regards to getting this around the dragon when the wights can't seemingly swim, all they have to do is fall and get the chain around the head. I'm sure they can navigate around, they are controlled by the Night King's magic after all. It doesn't have to make logical sense in the way the geography issues have to.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Penn wrote: »

The wights who went into the lake under the water and attached the chains were likely sacrificial. They went in, attached the chains and were just left there. They're reanimated corpses. They don't matter. And the chains likely belonged to the wildlings. We've seen them use large chains before trying to take the gate off under the Wall during the attack on Castle Black.

Essentially if the writing is to make any sense then the Night King brought the chains with him from a wildling settlement in the anticipation that something like this was going to happen. It also only makes sense that the guys on the island weren't killed because he wanted Daenerys to come rescue them with her dragons. I'd even be inclined to say that he let Daenerys escape, but he does actually aim at Drogon while she is leaving (I'll just chalk that up to idiocy on either his part or the writers).

MOH

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

I'd even be inclined to say that he let Daenerys escape, but he does actually aim at Drogon while she is leaving (I'll just chalk that up to idiocy on either his part or the writers).

Saw this comment elsewhere:

NIGHT KING: I want to kill a dragon, and I don't want to waste my spear on non-dragons. So if I have the choice of killing a dragon or killing a dragon with eight human enemies... I'll just kill the first one.
NIGHT KING'S BRAIN: Wait, are you sure that's how this works?
NIGHT KING: Shut up brain!

quad_red

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It's not consistent though - it would be a reasonable explanation if it was, but having just watched some of S5 again out of curiosity it's not.

In S1 he has a sort of flat English accent for the most part (it does randomly change a bit from scene to scene but broadly speaking), but fast forward to S5 when he speaks with Cersei again, he's still speaking with the Irish brogue.

This about sums it up - he talks like the latter clip in Kings Landing in S5 so it's not an accent he simply changes depending on his location/company.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QtRPT_zYHc

Littlefinger talks with Cersei in S2 in the first clip, and with Cersei in S5 in the second - sounds different in both and even the way he speaks is totally different rather than just the accent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTc8Chvw5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lcx8gAM6wM

Listen to this also, when he says to Ned Stark "I did warn you not to trust me" at the very end of this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVHzUUcSzQM

It's pretty clear that Baelish is going from a mere peddler of sneaky lies into the true real dark prince.

Penn

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Essentially if the writing is to make any sense then the Night King brought the chains with him from a wildling settlement in the anticipation that something like this was going to happen. It also only makes sense that the guys on the island weren't killed because he wanted Daenerys to come rescue them with her dragons. I'd even be inclined to say that he let Daenerys escape, but he does actually aim at Drogon while she is leaving (I'll just chalk that up to idiocy on either his part or the writers).

The scene where they're pulling the dragon out of the lake could have been days or weeks later. They could have gone and gotten the chains from wherever in that time. Then again, if the NK did know what was going to happen, they likely had the chains nearby.

As for throwing another spear at Drogon, it could have been a warning shot to prevent them turning around and trying to take him out. A warning for them to keep flying away or he'll potentially take out another dragon. He might have known he'd miss.

TerrorFirmer

quad_red wrote: »

It's pretty clear that Baelish is going from a mere peddler of sneaky lies into the true real dark prince.

Aha, I've never seen that TV show but there's definitely a striking similarity there between post season 2 Baelish and Gillen's Haughey!

MarinersBlues

boccy23 wrote: »

Vojera wrote: »

I got the impression that the Night King was making them wait, rather than them being unable to go in the water.

But all the ones that fell in when the ice cracked died.

What is dead may never die.

Brock Turnpike

People complaining about the wights going into water. Yes, plenty of them fell into the water when the ice cracked, that doesn't mean they drowned or died (again).

The reason for wights waiting for the ice to freeze was to give them a stable platform to attack from. What's the point in swimming/walking along the sea bed to get out to Jon's gang, only to be picked off easily as they try to break water and get clubbed in the head by the Hound/Jorah/Beric et al?

Fair enough, they are reanimated corpses. But they're an army. Give their battle acumen some credit FFS.

DM_7

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I've probably missed something completely obvious but why is Jon so against killing the night king in that episode? Beric brings the subject up and Jon says no.

Is he against it or just pointing out it will be hard to achieve that due to the undead army in the way?

JamboMac

DM_7 wrote: »

Is he against it or just pointing out it will be hard to achieve that due to the undead army in the way?

Some people have been speculating that the night king is one of the main characters. Therefore this character may need to be released somehow.

K, I have it paused at the scene.

Jorah: "We'll all freeze soon and so will the water. When you killed the white walker, almost all the dead that followed it fell. Why?"

Jon: "maybe he was the one who turned them"

Jorah: "We can go for the walkers. Maybe we'll stand a chance."

Jon: "No, we need to take that thing back with us <points at wight>.There's a raven flying for dragonstone now. Danearys is our only chance."

Beric: "No, there's another. <points at NK> Kill him. He turned them all."

Jon: "You don't understand"

Beric: "The lord brought you back, he brought me back. No one else just us. Did he do it to watch us freeze to death?"

Hound: "Careful Beric, you lost your priest. This is your last life."

Beric: "I've been waiting for him for a long time. Maybe the lord brought me here to find it."

Hound: "Any lord I've ever met has been a Cnut. Don't see why the lord of light should be any different."

End of scene

I don't get the meaning of Jon saying "you don't understand". They all know what the mission was for, to get a wight, yada yada. So why wouldn't he be onboard with killing the NK and ending it all there and then. There's more to this than we know.

TCDStudent1

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

K, I have it paused at the scene.

Jorah: "We'll all freeze soon and so will the water. When you killed the white walker, almost all the dead that followed it fell. Why?"

Jon: "maybe he was the one who turned them"

Jorah: "We can go for the walkers. Maybe we'll stand a chance."

Jon: "No, we need to take that thing back with us <points at wight>.There's a raven flying for dragonstone now. Danearys is our only chance."

Beric: "No, there's another. <points at NK> Kill him. He turned them all."

Jon: "You don't understand"

Beric: "The lord brought you back, he brought me back. No one else just us. Did he do it to watch us freeze to death?"

Hound: "Careful Beric, you lost your priest. This is your last life."

Beric: "I've been waiting for him for a long time. Maybe the lord brought me here to find it."

Hound: "Any lord I've ever met has been a Cnut. Don't see why the lord of light should be any different."

End of scene

I don't get the meaning of Jon saying "you don't understand". They all know what the mission was for, to get a wight, yada yada. So why wouldn't he be onboard with killing the NK and ending it all there and then. There's more to this than we know.

They didn't be understand that if they stayed and attacked him, they would die.
Jon was best placed to understand the night kings strength. He wasn't losing his focus on the mission. The others were.

Daledge

I think everyone's completely overthinking the "you don't understand" thing. Ever since Hardhome Jon must have mentioned a million times how he has seen the NK and what he can do. I'd wager a lot of money that that's what he meant here - don't underestimate him.

Penn

Agreed. And he knows if they died trying to take out the Night King, there'd be no one to stop him. No one to bring the armies of the living together to stop The Night King. It was Jon rallying the North. Jon and Tormund rallying the Wildlings. And without proof of the army of the dead, Cersei would keep fighting against Dany meaning Dany would be busy fighting back. The Night King and his army would walk all over the living.

To take out the Night King, they would have had to fight through more wights, fight through 4 white walkers (Jon being the only one with a valerian steel sword and the rest just with dragon glass daggers) with more wights still attacking them, and then kill the Night King himself. It was far too great a risk. Jon was absolutely right.

Drumpot

Daledge wrote: »

I think everyone's completely overthinking the "you don't understand" thing. Ever since Hardhome Jon must have mentioned a million times how he has seen the NK and what he can do. I'd wager a lot of money that that's what he meant here - don't underestimate him.

People are reviewing somebody's accent over 6 years, surely you can't be seriously accusing people of over thinking parts of the series!

Daledge

Drumpot wrote: »

People are reviewing somebody's accent over 6 years, surely you can't be seriously accusing people of over thinking parts of the series!

Well I think that too is being over-analysed. Personally I didn't even notice until it was mentioned here.

Edit: Before someone comes in with the "well, this is a discussion site", I didn't criticize anyone, just gave my discussion point.

DM_7

Even if it is foreshadowing something for later, in that moment, I don't think Jon was saying it for a hidden meaning, some knowledge he has kept secret.

JamboMac

Could they have come up with a better name than the night king, no better than the boogeyman.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Anyone else find it interesting how the wights tried to free the tied up one on the island. Wonder if there's something more to that.

All of the above makes sense. I just thought I might have missed something important.

And you never know, there could be a teensy weensy chance that I'm right and it would be great to say I told ya so














That ain't gonna happen!

Drumpot

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Anyone else find it interesting how the wights tried to free the tied up one on the island. Wonder if there's something more to that.

Only thing I can think of is that it's a stragic advantage for humans to have the tied up walker to try and galvanise all humans against the NK. Without proof most people (look at stone masons) think they don't exist.

lazybones32

homerun_homer wrote: »

That episode was the previous finale. The next season, when Arya defeats the Waif, Jaqen sees blood as he enters the hall of faces and follows it to the column where he see the Waif's face. Then Arya confronts him to say she is leaving, and that the Faceless God got a face in the end.

Yes, yes, yes...the point of my post was that Jaqen, arya and the waif's face was being used while they were all still alive. Putting the waif's face on the wall doesn't mean much when Jaqen has already been shown using it while she was still alive. I don't know how that works but her face was already available for use.

Loafing Oaf

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

I don't remember the spear going anywhere near his bowels.

If he actually has any. God can you imagine how much s**t dragons would leave, what it would be like to be dumped on from on high by one. Probably really hot too...

benny79

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

They didn't be understand that if they stayed and attacked him, they would die.
Jon was best placed to understand the night kings strength. He wasn't losing his focus on the mission. The others were.

I have to disagree I personally think there was more to it just in the way he said it.. I do think they wouldn't of got near him in there but it was just the way he said you dont "understand" Personally as well I dont think they meant attack the NG now either as they were well outnumbered.

MOH

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

They didn't be understand that if they stayed and attacked him, they would die.
Jon was best placed to understand the night kings strength. He wasn't losing his focus on the mission. The others were.

Penn wrote: »

To take out the Night King, they would have had to fight through more wights, fight through 4 white walkers (Jon being the only one with a valerian steel sword and the rest just with dragon glass daggers) with more wights still attacking them, and then kill the Night King himself. It was far too great a risk. Jon was absolutely right.

And then he went and did exactly the opposite of that when Dany arrived by fighting on for absolutely no reason when he could have just hopped on the dragon. As a direct result of which the NK now has a dragon.

Ann22

Strawberry Milkshake wrote:

I don't get the meaning of Jon saying "you don't understand". They all know what the mission was for, to get a wight, yada yada. So why wouldn't he be onboard with killing the NK and ending it all there and then. There's more to this than we know.

Maybe..but their chances of survival getting near him among thousands were very low. I agree though. He should've said something else besides "you don't understand".

Sonics2k

I'm not sure I get why people are so angry why Jon refused to attack the Night King.

Let's be honest, there was only about 6 of them left standing against thousands of the dead, plus they'd have to fight remaining White Walkers.

Jon isn't just a fighter, namely he's a survivor (except for that one time) so he knew a charge would only end in their death.

Sure the whole timeframe has pretty much gone out the window, but there was a few moments in that final battle where it seemed that anyone except Jon could die.

mzungu

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

If he actually has any. God can you imagine how much s**t dragons would leave, what it would be like to be dumped on from on high by one. Probably really hot too...

Dragonstone must smell like a sewer.

Drumpot

I dont have any clue or information about how things will end up, never read the books and don't read conspiracy forums so don't know what the word on the street is . .

I love the characters and the universe, but for some reason I feel the most tragic character alive is Jamie. Comes across as passionate, empathetic, thoughtful and a general good guy except for his Achilles heel sister. Its a tragic flaw that is most likely going to lead to not just his death, but him going against a general decent skin instinct that his character has shown. I don't think he's perfect but he's as close to a normal person the programme has. On a side note, his death would crush Tyrion because I think hes the only real family that Tyrion has ever had on his side.

I don't think things will end up well for Jamie, but wouldn't be disappointed if the writers figured out a way of giving him some semblance of light between now and the end of the series.

pah

Read much better episode ending proposal earlier

Jon gets on Drogon and as they're taking off the knight king throws his ice javelin towards them but viserys takes one for the team by swooping in and protecting drogon, when the knight king throws his second ice javelin and drogon banks to the side jon falls off and into the icy water, the rest of the episode continues as it did

I'd have preffered that tbh. Also felt Jon's "Thangk yu Daney" was terribly forced and unnatural, why on earth would he do this???

team_actimel

pah wrote: »

Also felt Jon's "Thangk yu Daney" was terribly forced and unnatural, why on earth would he do this???

I wonder was it just a way of showing how comfortable he feels around her, like a family member (although unbeknownst to them).

Daledge

pah wrote: »

Read much better episode ending proposal earlier

Jon gets on Drogon and as they're taking off the knight king throws his ice javelin towards them but viserys takes one for the team by swooping in and protecting drogon, when the knight king throws his second ice javelin and drogon banks to the side jon falls off and into the icy water, the rest of the episode continues as it did

I'd have preffered that tbh. Also felt Jon's "Thangk yu Daney" was terribly forced and unnatural, why on earth would he do this???

This would be much better, still don't understand why NK didn't go for Drogon in the first place, he'd have basically won the war there and then leaving no one else really to stand in his way as this would have led to Jon and co. dying.

Why in every ending does Jon have to fall into the water? It was pointless, no one thought he was going to die so there was no real tension. Don't see why Drogon couldn't just fly off without Jon falling. Even Benjen's reappearance seemed pointless - he literally reappeared so they could kill him off, there are better ways to tie up a loose end.

I hate complaining so much because I did actually enjoy the episode a lot but there were a lot of slip-ups on the writers behalfs.

J. Marston

team_actimel wrote: »

I wonder was it just a way of showing how comfortable he feels around her, like a family member (although unbeknownst to them).

It was but they kinda overdid it. Calling her Daenerys would've achieved the same thing and been much more natural.

Effects

Daledge wrote: »

Why in every ending does Jon have to fall into the water?

How many episodes has he fallen into water at the end? None?

Penn

Effects wrote: »

How many episodes has he fallen into water at the end? None?

I think they meant in every ending of the possible scenarios for the ending of this episode, as in does Jon need to have fallen into the water at all.

False Prophet

Drumpot wrote: »

but for some reason I feel the most tragic character alive is Jamie. Comes across as passionate, empathetic, thoughtful and a general good guy except for his Achilles heel sister. Its a tragic flaw that is most likely going to lead to not just his death, but him going against a general decent skin instinct that his character has shown. I don't think he's perfect but he's as close to a normal person the programme has.

Without a second thought he pushed a child to his death and then joked about it. Cant recall him ever showing much remorse either.

tobsey

MOH wrote: »

And then he went and did exactly the opposite of that when Dany arrived by fighting on for absolutely no reason when he could have just hopped on the dragon. As a direct result of which the NK now has a dragon.

I got the impression that Jon thought the dead were going to get to Drogon before he took off and so stayed and fought to give them a chance to get away. I've only watched it once so maybe I missed something in the timing.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Daledge

Effects wrote: »

How many episodes has he fallen into water at the end? None?

What Penn said.

A Primal Nut

Why is Cersei's army so important in defeating the White Walkers? Could they not just have gone in with 3 dragons and Dani's army with the element of surprise and defeat them? Will the Lannister army really make that much of a difference?

Jon seems really intent on getting Cersei onside.

Penn

False Prophet wrote: »

Without a second thought he pushed a child to his death and then joked about it. Cant recall him ever showing much remorse either.

In fairness, since Season 3 he has become a far deeper and less morally ambiguous character than he was at the start. It seems like his reputation as the Kingslayer led to him embodying the type of person people thought he was even though nobody knew he did it for altruistic reasons. And he'd do anything to protect his family, particularly Cersei. Robert would have killed him and Cersei if he'd found out about them.

Since Season 3 though, and particularly since losing his hand, we're seeing far more of the real Jamie.

Pugzilla

I think Cersei will try to ambush Jon and Daenarys during the meeting at the dragon pit in King's Landing. A big battle will break out I imagine.

MOH

tobsey wrote: »

I got the impression that Jon thought the dead were going to get to Drogon before he took off and so stayed and fought to give them a chance to get away. I've only watched it once so maybe I missed something in the timing.

I'd thought that initially but then even when everyone else was "on board" he was still actually moving away from Drogon looking for more dead to fight. (And it's not a 747, took off pretty sharpish when the NK produced his second spear).

There was no real reason for it other than delaying things so that they could lose a dragon for the plot's sake.

The Master

Chains explained

martingriff

MOH wrote: »

I'd thought that initially but then even when everyone else was "on board" he was still actually moving away from Drogon looking for more dead to fight. (And it's not a 747, took off pretty sharpish when the NK produced his second spear).

There was no real reason for it other than delaying things so that they could lose a dragon for the plot's sake.

I think he was thinking of kill the NK and this would end.

MOH

martingriff wrote: »

I think he was thinking of kill the NK and this would end.

But he'd already shot down that solution. Plus, before the spears appeared, the simplest way to do that would be hop on Drogon, tell Dany to go toast that guy, job done.
In fact, even after Viserion was shot down, they still had two dragons. NK couldn't spear them both if they attacked him.
He'd probably take Drogon and everyone would die, but Rhaegal would get him, war over.

martingriff

MOH wrote: »

But he'd already shot down that solution. Plus, before the spears appeared, the simplest way to do that would be hop on Drogon, tell Dany to go toast that guy, job done.
In fact, even after Viserion was shot down, they still had two dragons. NK couldn't spear them both if they attacked him.
He'd probably take Drogon and everyone would die, but Rhaegal would get him, war over.

Ya he told them to leave and take off after the first spear as he could not get back. I don't think he shot down the idea he said I don't know I am guessing he saw him close and the rage came

nc6000

The Master wrote: »

Chains

What are the pictures for?

The Master

nc6000 wrote: »

What are the pictures for?

Explains where the chains came from

martingriff

The Master wrote: »

Explains where the chains came from

How does the picture explain where the NK and White walkers got the chains