Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Non book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

CMOTDibbler

Relikk wrote: »

F@!k... I was nearly having a panic attack while watching that episode. Incredible stuff!

+1
I was reminded of the Battle of the Bastards when the close-in fighting began. It was incredibly intense and everyone was heavily engaged. The only thing I thought they could have done better, but they didn't have time, was use the hammer to break all the ice around them.

The production values continue to hit cinematic levels. The shots (presumably from Iceland) were stunning.

willmunny1990

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think so. I'm not certain if it was spelled out in the show but it's pretty clear now anyway. It's interesting from a Targaryen succession pov, because if she and Jon get together, they're the last.

I also wonder how she'll react if and when its revealed to her that Jon is actually rhaegar's son, wont he have the better claim plus he can have children which is obviously an added bonus in terms of succession.

I can't believe I didn't pick up on her not being able to have kids sooner, thats a big deal and has huge ramifications on her reign.

Harambe

Jon Snow will ride Rhaegal as Rhaegar was his father

CMOTDibbler

Harambe wrote: »

Jon Snow will ride Rhaegal as Rhaegar was his father

<sniffle!>

PressRun

Entertaining enough but lots of silly moves that don't really make much sense - the expedition to capture the wight in the first place, Daenerys dropping everything to go and help a bunch of people who she doesn't really know (bar Jorah) and who decided to go on this suicide mission of their own volition, Benjen's big deus ex machina moment, Arya speaking in riddles (why have they turned her character into a cartoon?).

The show just feels like a bunch of set pieces now with little characterization. Obviously we're nearing the end and things need to start coming together, but if they hadn't filled the last couple of seasons with episodes that went nowhere, maybe we wouldn't be at this point. It just feels like a lot of minor details are being lost at this stage.

The north looked spectacular again though.

EagererBeaver

Harambe wrote: »

Jon Snow will ride Rhaegal as Rhaegar was his father

Now that's insight I tells ya!

maudgonner

Harambe wrote: »

Jon Snow will ride Rhaegal as Rhaegar was his father

And Daenerys rides Drogon because...she rode Drogo?

maudgonner

maudgonner wrote: »

And Daenerys rides Drogon because...she rode Drogo?

And viserion is dead cos......



you get the picture.

velo.2010

Shouldn't have watched... but I did. Epic stuff!

I agree about the story pacing and time-travelling of characters to get from one place to another. It's annoying but that's the problem of trying to tie up lots of loose ends and bringing the whole thing to a focus in the final few episodes.

It's far easier to write the beginning and middle of a story, and you can stretch it out and play with it as much as you want but, ultimately, you have to get round to writing the third and final act.

The two writers have long since had to go about writing the last few seasons without GRRM's foundation (though they do know how it's meant to end) and have probably taken more liberty with some sequences.

I wonder if they will absolutely follow Martin's plans for the finale or, given they own the TV rights, will they go a completely different direction?

Something tells me that Martin might be quite nihilistic and not give people the fairy tale ending that many hope for. The two lads may go in another direction, I don't know. However, I hope it remains as enthralling as it has done notwithstanding some of the pacing/location jumping criticisms.

BTW, I had assumed that the dragons and white-walkers were limited to their own patch for most of the time and could only meet in combat near the snow line. Obviously I was wrong on that!

WhiteMemento9

The ridiculous levels were off the charts in this episode. People who make the point about, how can you be pedantic towards parts when they are being marched on by the Army of the dead completely miss the point. You suspend belief in the world that has been created. That doesn't mean the events within that world shouldn't be believable within the context that they play out.

Watching some ridiculous scene where a few men end up in the middle of a rock on a frozen lake by happen chance and then falling back to nowhere when surrounded by an Army who are then rescued just in the nick of time is just lazy bad writing building tension without earning it.

I thought it was a wonderful episode which was highly enjoyable but they could have easily built the rescue, dragon slaying and events of the episode without insulting the audience with the over the top ticking time bomb antics. It would have been far more satisfactory to have had maybe a little less tension but events that were easier to accept. GOT was built on genuine fear for characters with realism within a fantasy realm. This episode has cartoonish levels of action which I felt were insulting towards the viewer.

Paddy Cow

The Master wrote: »

Days could have passed between the dragon sinking and being pulled out, plenty of time to fetch chains

Or the walkers had the chains with them to pull down the gates at the wall

It would've been really cool if the end scene was the Night King lifting up his arms and the dragon came out of the ice, like he raised all the people at Hardhome but maybe they didn't have the budget for CGI.

CMOTDibbler

velo.2010 wrote: »

I agree about the story pacing and time-travelling of characters to get from one place to another. It's annoying but that's the problem of trying to tie up lots of loose ends and bringing the whole thing to a focus in the final few episodes.

It's far easier to write the beginning and middle of a story, and you can stretch it out and play with it as much as you want but, ultimately, you have to get round to writing the third and final act.

Very good point. Also in previous seasons we had characters all over the world, so we could have clippage of them in one location and not see them for the rest of the episode as we catch up with other characters. Next episode could have them somewhere else and that works out fine.

But now we have characters congregating and the action happening in different places. We can't go from Bran to Arya to Sansa because they are in the same place. So time looks like it's contracting as a result. It all can look like it's happening on the same day, even if it isn't.

Doodah7

Amazing episode and carries on the tradition of having an epic second last episode in a season.

What is also amazing that we have got this far in the thread without someone on here claiming GoT 'has jumped the shark'!! Must be a record for this year!

Daledge

Arya is pissing me the f*ck off lately.

Also loved The Hounds comment regarding the Lord of Light, paraphrasing here: "Everyone I've ever met was a c*nt, why should he be any different?"

Slydice

I don't get it

I thought it was cool how they did the battle and seeing the dragons vs the zombies was cool.

but like.. did nobody else call what was going to happen to one of the dragons the second Snow mentioned sending a raven to Daenerys? Then all the hints about how the dead get turned and even showing a non-human (polar bear) just as a reminder?

Also.. not having a key person get killed?

Also.. the speed ratcheting up so much so fast feels off

velo.2010

I think we can all agree that the ravens in Westeros are on EPO and steroids!

EagererBeaver

Slydice wrote: »

I don't get it

I thought it was cool how they did the battle and seeing the dragons vs the zombies was cool.

but like.. did nobody else call what was going to happen to one of the dragons the second Snow mentioned sending a raven to Daenerys? Then all the hints about how the dead get turned and even showing a non-human (polar bear) just as a reminder?

Lots of people called it. Lots and lots of people.

Daledge wrote: »

Arya is pissing me the f*ck off lately.

Also loved The Hounds comment regarding the Lord of Light, paraphrasing here: "Everyone I've ever met was a c*nt, why should he be any different?"

Think it was "Every lord I've ever met was a ****"

Daledge

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Think it was "Every lord I've ever met was a ****"

That makes more sense.

MisterAnarchy

velo.2010 wrote: »

I think we can all agree that the ravens in Westeros are on EPO and steroids!

Its all getting very silly now .
Really poor writing .
Gendry runs back to the wall ,a raven flies to Dragonstone ,Daenarys gets her 3 Dragons and flies back past the wall ,all this in less than a day .:rolleyes:

Bacchus

Daledge wrote: »

That makes more sense.

That was awesome. Knight King has his own airline now!

weldoninhio

Daledge wrote: »

Arya is pissing me the f*ck off lately.

Also loved The Hounds comment regarding the Lord of Light, paraphrasing here: "Everyone I've ever met was a c*nt, why should he be any different?"

Every Lord I've met.

Nearly shat myself when the first dead bear side-swiped the lads out walking.

J. Marston

My stream wasn't the best. Was Dany wearing armour of some kind or just a nice winter coat?

J. Marston

J. Marston wrote: »

My stream wasn't the best. Was Dany wearing armour of some kind or just a nice winter coat?

She was wearing her winter collection.

Gru

wandatowell wrote: »

Just re-watched it, Any possibility that Arya has killed Little Finger, took his face and played Sanza to move Brienne out of Winterfell?

does she have to kill them to impersonate them though?

what if it was actually little finger and Sansa in that scene, but Arya impersonating Sansa in the scene where she sent Brienne away.

the scene with Sansa and Arya would make more sense as Arya would know she's already successfully impersonated Sansa.

EagererBeaver

weldoninhio wrote: »

Every Lord I've met.

Nearly shat myself when the first dead bear side-swiped the lads out walking.

It was like the bear scene from the Revenant with more rape.

Penn

I really enjoyed the episode, but f*ck me those Arya and Sansa scenes were f*cking dreadful. Whatever they're doing with that they need to wrap it the f*ck up quickly.

Other than that, I really enjoyed it. Some great dialogue between characters I never knew I wanted to see together. Kinda guessed Thoros was going to go as he was the most expendable outside of the redshirt wildlings. Would have liked to have seen Gendry take the hammer with him and take out a few wights running back to the Wall, he barely got to fight and the Hound stopped using the hammer after a few swings.

Thoros and Beric lighting their swords was awesome though. The Hound was on top form. Thormund talking about Brienne was hilarious. Jon and Jorah talking about Jeor was great. Dany seeing the dead army and seems to be coming around to ignoring the throne for now was a good move. There were rumours the Night King would get one of the dragons, would have imagined it'd happen in a cleverer way than the javelin but whatever.

Yeah, good episode. Just... Arya and Sansa... f*cking hell...

maudgonner

Gru wrote: »

does she have to kill them to impersonate them though?

I think she has to cut their face off. And they tend to wriggle when you do that if they're conscious.

J. Marston

Forgot about Beric, the sword magic is so cool. Really hope to see more of him in the battles to come.

ironingbored

Would have been a better ending had Jon Snow been rescued by the other dragon...

sabat

Is that zombie BenJen Stark in the bottom left at 1.05.20s?

willmunny1990

ironingbored wrote: »

Would have been a better ending had Jon Snow been rescued by the other dragon...

Would of been symbolic if Rhaegal came back for him.

MisterAnarchy

Gru wrote: »

does she have to kill them to impersonate them though?

what if it was actually little finger and Sansa in that scene, but Arya impersonating Sansa in the scene where she sent Brienne away.

.

You'd need more than a mask for Arya to impersonate Sansa ,for one thing she is at least a foot shorter.

PressRun

Another thought, did the night king know the dragons were coming? He's got the same power as Bran, doesn't he, where he can see things that others can't? He was using that javelin like he was expecting this turn of events.

MisterAnarchy

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He got Viserion in the side. A lot of blood, so likely hit his heart. Drogon was on the ground, but his wings would have protected his heart.

It actually hit Viserion in the neck ,perhaps it hit his jugular vein considering the quick death.

EagererBeaver

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

It actually hit Viserion in the neck ,perhaps it hit his jugular vein considering the quick death.

Is there a Gray's Anatomy for dragons handy anywhere?

CMOTDibbler

PressRun wrote: »

Another thought, did the night king know the dragons were coming? He's got the same power as Bran, doesn't he, where he can see things that others can't? He was using that javelin like he was expecting this turn of events.

Yes

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I obviously can't put this in the speculation thread, so I'll spoiler tag the speculative bits for everyone. It's pure speculation based on what we've seen so far and especially from this episode.

Firstly, we now know why the Night King has been hanging about north of the wall for so long. We could clearly see small platoons and larger companies of wights heading towards a kind of staging point. But as I thought of that, it occurred to me that the Night King has much the same abilities as Bran. He can at least see the present and the past and even interact with other seers.

So was he waiting for the dragons to cross the wall? He had the throwing spears prepared and possibly even the chains. Not necessarily to pull a dragon from the lake, but it's certainly a possibility. We know the dragons can melt ice and the wall is made of ice. A dragon is feck all use to him unless he can get the rest of his army across the wall.

GavRedKing

Im assuming that if the dragon is raised that he'd no be shooting ice instead of fire.

I suppose we'll have to see.

One thing that kind of annoyed me is that theyre leaving the wall with what they know.

If dany went back with drogon and took out the night king from above theyed save themselves another few episodes.

Im azed he took down Viserion with pinpoint accuracy from a much further distance than Drogon who was lower, slower and much the bigger dragon of the two but ya, if hes like Bran and hes all seeing, he knew theyed bring a dragon. Otherwise the army of the dead would have just walked across the lake the first chance they got and killed them all on that rock.

Still, fantastic episode, had to watch it again.

CMOTDibbler

Well Tormund is staying obviously. And Beric as well. I'm not sure Dragon fire will kill the Night King.

maudgonner

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Is there a Gray's Anatomy for dragons handy anywhere?

Gilly's probably reading it - slowly - to Sam, and he's ignoring her.

GavRedKing

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well Tormund is staying obviously. And Beric as well. I'm not sure Dragon fire will kill the Night King.

I know hes magic and all that but it would be some kick in the balls if in the next season he gets blasted by a dragon and walks through it.

CMOTDibbler

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

It actually hit Viserion in the neck ,perhaps it hit his jugular vein considering the quick death.

Poor Viserion. They'll be hauling a scorpion up from Kings Landing armed with dragonglass tipped arrows just for him.

Viserion: "Oh no, not again"...

velo.2010

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Is there a Gray's Anatomy for dragons handy anywhere?

Re-watching it, you can see fire erupt from the impact of the spear, while Viserion is breathing fire. The ice spear pierced a hole through the chest and allowed the dragon fire to escape, burning through vulnerable areas, killing Viserion.

I think that's the key to take out a dragon and why the NK didn't throw the spear at Drogon as he was not breathing fire at that moment.

When fully re-animated, I'd imagine we'll see a large hole where the fire erupted through Viserion's chest.

biggebruv

velo.2010 wrote: »

Re-watching it, you can see fire erupt from the impact of the spear, while Viserion is breathing fire. The ice spear pierced a hole through the chest and allowed the dragon fire to escape, burning through vulnerable areas, killing Viserion.

I think that's the key to take out a dragon and why the NK didn't throw the spear at Drogon as he was not breathing fire at that moment.

When fully re-animated, I'd imagine we'll see a large hole where the fire erupted through Viserion's chest.

that was a really horrible way for one of the dragons to go though I'm actually really sad
there like pet dogs but big and bumpy lol

poor dany

people say game of thrones hasn't really killed anyone major lately but I think that's a major death in my eyes so sad please don't kill any more lol

EagererBeaver

velo.2010 wrote: »

Re-watching it, you can see fire erupt from the impact of the spear, while Viserion is breathing fire. The ice spear pierced a hole through the chest and allowed the dragon fire to escape, burning through vulnerable areas, killing Viserion.

I think that's the key to take out a dragon and why the NK didn't throw the spear at Drogon as he was not breathing fire at that moment.

When fully re-animated, I'd imagine we'll see a large hole where the fire erupted through Viserion's chest.

I know, I was just having a laugh at the use of "jugular vein".

defrule

That spear throw was brutal like Achilles' throw in the film Troy.

murpho999

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Its all getting very silly now .
Really poor writing .
Gendry runs back to the wall ,a raven flies to Dragonstone ,Daenarys gets her 3 Dragons and flies back past the wall ,all this in less than a day .:rolleyes:

Why are people just out to criticise the writing all the time?

This show this season is not showing all details and giving indications of time but viewers have to realise that time has passed.

For example, the stand off with the boys on the rock surrounded by water and the white walkers was a long time as was indicated by the guys sleeping.

I assume they were there for more than a day so plenty of time for all the things to happen.

Either way the episode was epic and thoroughly enjoyable and there's no need for people to go and pick plot holes all the time that aren't really there.

CMOTDibbler

velo.2010 wrote: »

Re-watching it, you can see fire erupt from the impact of the spear, while Viserion is breathing fire. The ice spear pierced a hole through the chest and allowed the dragon fire to escape, burning through vulnerable areas, killing Viserion.

I think that's the key to take out a dragon and why the NK didn't throw the spear at Drogon as he was not breathing fire at that moment.

When fully re-animated, I'd imagine we'll see a large hole where the fire erupted through Viserion's chest.

I wonder would that damage stop Viserion breathing fire when re-animated? Some how I doubt it. Of course the NK re-animations seem to be much more complete. The poor old wights seem to be stuck in whatever state their bodies were.

Pugzilla

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

It actually hit Viserion in the neck ,perhaps it hit his jugular vein considering the quick death.

The jugular veins aren't actually that critical. Doctors stick big needles into them all the time for central line placement.

circadian

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I wonder would that damage stop Viserion breathing fire when re-animated?

I actually thought he'd be able to breathe ice. Too much Skyrim for me maybe.

Harambe

Whatever he breathes will probably melt the wall and break the magic allowing them to march into the North finally.