Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

EagererBeaver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Because I'm not such a negative nanny like yourself. :P

I enjoy a good rant. But then, mid-rant, somebody says something that's provably wrong, well that just hits a bum note with me and the rant stops being enjoyable.

And then I have to logically explain where the rant went wrong and point out how it could have been a far better rant if they'd just left that one thing out, or thought it through a bit more.

It's hard to believe that people click 'submit' on that stuff.

A quick Google reveals this:

"The longest distance flown on one day by a racing pigeon, is the 751 miles from Lulea to Malmo, in Sweden, when birds released above the Arctic Circle at Lulea at 0100 hrs, in the Midnight Sun Derby, were recorded home in Malmo, 751 miles to the south, seventeen hours later"

Your hypothetical raven is doing 900 miles in 15 hours, so there's a load of ****e to begin with.

You say as the crow flies is 900 miles, when most maps put out at about 1,500.

You're waffling and trying to present it as some sort of intelligent arguement. Nothing more to it.

CMOTDibbler

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

If you're referring to me, I said the journey to Eastwatch, then the journey to the Night King's army, back to Eastwatch and then back to Dragonstone/King's Landing would take months. Which it could, and I demonstrated completely reasonably how it could. It could take shorter, it could take longer depending on maths and weather (and some north of the wall distances we're not sure on). To say that everyone was "so far wrong it was funny" is plain inaccurate.

I get that you're tired of the complaints about teleportation given how close we are to the end of the season and show, but most reasonable people would admit that some of the geographical leaps have been ... a bit of a stretch. If I can say that "You know what, it is a bit of a stretch to believe this but I'll get over it because it's good TV and I realise we're coming to the end" then you can too without having to defend the actual realism of it.

Ah, it wasn't just you Dave. Loads of people were saying it as if it were gospel. At least you engaged on the topic and trashed it out to what I thought was a pretty mutual agreement. And that's all part of discussing this series.

As I said above, I actually do enjoy a good rant. But they have to be believable too.

CMOTDibbler

EagererBeaver wrote: »

A quick Google reveals this:

"The longest distance flown on one day by a racing pigeon, is the 751 miles from Lulea to Malmo, in Sweden, when birds released above the Arctic Circle at Lulea at 0100 hrs, in the Midnight Sun Derby, were recorded home in Malmo, 751 miles to the south, seventeen hours later"

Your hypothetical raven is doing 900 miles in 15 hours, so there's a load of ****e to begin with.

You say as the crow flies is 900 miles, when most maps put out at about 1,500.

You're waffling and trying to present it as some sort of intelligent arguement. Nothing more to it.

So we're arguing about two hours and 150 miles. It's not 1500 miles. That's not even the sea journey which is longer due to having to sail west at the end of the journey.

And less of the expletives please. I didn't get personal with you, so wind your nexk in.

EagererBeaver

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

So we're arguing about two hours and 150 miles. It's not 1500 miles. That's not even the sea journey which is longer due to having to sail west at the end of the journey.

And less of the expletives please. I didn't get personal with you, so wind your nexk in.

I'm not sure how you think I was "getting personal". Maybe try not being sensitive. Maybe also try looking in the mirror while you smugly run about the place telling everybody how wrong they are and how right you are with nothing to back it up.

It is about 1,500 miles. It is certainly much closer to the 900 miles you claimed to suit your argument. You're not just waffling, you're deliberately lying to try and make your point stick.

Brego888

So what are we expecting of Cersei in the last episode? When she sees the wight what is she gonna do?

"oh God that's terrible, I have been such a fool, Queen Dany yes I will join your justice league and send all my arm to the wall"

EagererBeaver

Brego888 wrote: »

So what are we expecting of Cersei in the last episode? When she sees the wight what is she gonna do?

"oh God that's terrible, I have been such a fool, Queen Dany yes I will join your justice league and send all my arm to the wall"

Who cares, just give us Cleganebowl.

Dave_The_Sheep

Sandor to kill Gregor using fire.

Falthyron

Very enjoyable episode. I would like to see more of The Hound, Jon, Gendry, Tormund and Beric fighting together. Actually, just stick them in a pub with plenty of beer and let them talk shíte for an hour. Best thing HBO could produce as a spin-off! :pac:

I think the Night King will fly over the wall, destroy Eastwatch/Castle Black and then allow his forces to assault the wall without resistance. No need to bring the wall down or use magic of some sort.

Brego888

Falthyron wrote: »

Very enjoyable episode. I would like to see more of The Hound, Jon, Gendry, Tormund and Beric fighting together. Actually, just stick them in a pub with plenty of beer and let them talk shíte for an hour. Best thing HBO could produce as a spin-off! :pac:

I think the Night King will fly over the wall, destroy Eastwatch/Castle Black and then allow his forces to assault the wall without resistance. No need to bring the wall down or use magic of some sort.

But what about the magic embedded in the wall that prevents them crossing it?

ibFoxer

Brego888 wrote: »

But what about the magic embedded in the wall that prevents them crossing it?

Doesn't that break when the three eyed raven crosses the wall?

martingriff

God people we are not talking about a real life here it's game of thrones with dragons and magic. What is it with people now days trying to dilute every miniscule of a program. What happened to JUST WATCHING A SHOW AND ENJOYING YOURSELF.

There is a thread over in After Hours called Knight rider. People reliving theme tunes from shows from 70's and 80's. Most of those shows were not real did we dissect them as they could not happen no we enjoyed the entertainment

Falthyron

Brego888 wrote: »

But what about the magic embedded in the wall that prevents them crossing it?

The mark on Bran's arm must mean something. I think the Whitewalkers have possessed the ability to cross the wall since the Night King marked Bran. The only problem remaining: they still have to overcome and insurmountable physical obstacle.

I reckon he will fly over the wall, destroy the defences and then open the gates to led the horde through. It will be cheaper than a CGI extravaganza. Also, if the wall collapses we can be assured that the Whitewalkers will finally be destroyed by the end of the series.

GerB40

Lads I just googled it and apparently they don't even use real dragons. They're taking us for fools...

Falthyron

GerB40 wrote: »

Lads I just googled it and apparently they don't even use real dragons. They're taking us for fools...

PETA wouldn't be happy if they used real dragons.

turnikett1

martingriff wrote: »

God people we are not talking about a real life here it's game of thrones with dragons and magic. What is it with people now days trying to dilute every miniscule of a program. What happened to JUST WATCHING A SHOW AND ENJOYING YOURSELF.

There is a thread over in After Hours called Knight rider. People reliving theme tunes from shows from 70's and 80's. Most of those shows were not real did we dissect them as they could not happen no we enjoyed the entertainment

The issues that are being highlighted are hardly "minuscule". It's literally the main plot of the story that is highly questionable. If you don't think GoT is much more Hollywood in it's style these days than before then I'm not sure we're watching the same show.

Falthyron

turnikett1 wrote: »

The issues that are being highlighted are hardly "minuscule". It's literally the main plot of the story that is highly questionable. If you don't think GoT is much more Hollywood in it's style these days than before then I'm not sure we're watching the same show.

Personally, I believe D&D have simply run out of material. As crazy as that sounds, I think they are in No Man's Land and don't know how to get out. I reckon they have had access to Winds of Winter for some time now (at least a solid draft of the book), and that took them up to the end of last season. But, I think they are struggling to come up with material, complex strands, and more thorough intricacies like previous seasons because they don't have any idea where Martin is taking this. So, the best option is to keep it short, tighten it up, and work with fan favourite storylines. They are in too deep now and know the criticism they might face if they mess something up. D&D are desperate to end this now, and end it quickly before it becomes stale or they fúck up.

mewso

martingriff wrote: »

God people we are not talking about a real life here it's game of thrones with dragons and magic. What is it with people now days trying to dilute every miniscule of a program. What happened to JUST WATCHING A SHOW AND ENJOYING YOURSELF.

There is a thread over in After Hours called Knight rider. People reliving theme tunes from shows from 70's and 80's. Most of those shows were not real did we dissect them as they could not happen no we enjoyed the entertainment

Whats the limit Martin? If Jon decides to hold an ice skating competition do you still say watch and enjoy? If a plot makes no sense within its own rules then its perfectly fair to point it out. I love "turn off your brain" shows but if the show reaches out and hits my head with a hammer so hard it forces my brain back into action its the shows fault.

Liam O

I agree, when the dialog of something that masquerades as the greatest tv show ever reaches Steven Seagal levels, the clearly laid out rules regarding distances are broken with no real justification and character motivations that in some cases have been consistent for 7 seasons are changed when they're on the cusp of being achieved just because we should stick our heads in the sand and say it's all ok because there's dragons in the show.

To borrow from a character in the actual greatest tv show of all time, "oh indeed".

Falthyron

Throwing this theory out there:

Arya is Littlefinger. She has already killed him since breaking into his room and is now testing Sansa.

Dave_The_Sheep

Falthyron wrote: »

Throwing this theory out there:

Arya is Littlefinger. She has already killed him since breaking into his room and is now testing Sansa.

The thought crossed my mind as well.

Then again, most of the sh*t I think hasn't come true so what do I know.

Savage Tyrant

I don't like to criticise the show too much cause I really do enjoy it. And for the most part I enjoyed this episode... But let's be honest, the timing was completely fùcked up. I've accepted in in other episodes since season 1 because it's ambiguous enough to so.... But these were a specific set of events that happened in direct chronological order and they just clearly didn't add up.

The White Wolf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Ok, I'll play. Say a raven flies at the same speed as a duck. Gendry got to Eastwatch at nightfall, about 3-4pm in winter in these parts. As the raven flies, it's about 900 miles. So that's 15 hours. Arrives at Dragonstone about 6-7am. That leaves anything up to 9 hours for the dragons to get there.

Is that unbelievable?

The implication was that a day had past at least for me anyway. Still.....to be stranded like that in freezing conditions and to be able to flight like they did takes the piss. Which brings me to.......

It is what it is at this stage. The time jumping went into overdrive in episode 5 so 6 just continued that vein. I couldn't really give a crap at this stage as the more time D&D give themselves, the more they show their weaknesses in writing.

So they're moving at a frenetic pace and giving us massive spectacle which is fine by me, because for all the moaning on here, no one could deny that it makes for brilliant television. Hence why they consistently smash the ratings even in the face of record illegal downloading.

And I am a book reader, and read the series again recently, but at this stage I can accept that the two are different beasts at this stage and enjoy both for what they are.

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EagererBeaver

....... wrote: »

Why didn't they bring a Raven in a cage with a prepared message with them beyond the wall and just release it if things got critical?

It would have saved Gendry a run (at least he was warm), and then at Eastwatch the next Raven could have strapped on his jet propulsion pack and carried on to Dragonstone.
.

Ravenry is a maester's skill and they aren't have one with them.

Daith

So the White Walkers were biding their time until the dragons came? Hmm. Maybe that dragon shadow over Kings Landing was the Ice Dragon?

It would have been better if Bran sent the raven to Dany long before they were in trouble. Except you wouldn't have had Jon feeling responsible for the death of a dragon.

PhuckHugh

Senior hurling now lads.

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Night king has some throw on him, doesnt he??

why not just chuck the wights over one at a time with the slow walk he is on??

EagererBeaver

....... wrote: »

When they were on the fist of the first men yonks ago, they brought ravens and Sam was supposed to send them, remember Lord Commander Mormont "Did you send the ravens Tarly!"

Sam was training with Maester Aemon at that point.

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Jelle1880

They are indeed starting to take the piss with the time jumps.

I can understand Davos for example showing up in King's Landing. But the raven thing and then Dany getting on her dragon the next scene basically is ridiculous.

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ArmaniJeanss

Where did the thread episode title 'Death Is The Enemy' come from?
HBO have it as 'Beyond The Wall' as the official title.

edit. WTF, has it changed in the last 2 minutes? Or am I madder than a mad king.

Daith

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They had a lot of free time waiting on a dragon to come to them.

Dyr

Daith wrote: »

They had a lot of free time waiting on a dragon to come to them.

Typical though, you wait all season for a dragon to cross the wall and then three of them come together.

Daith

Bambi wrote: »

Typical though, you wait all season for a dragon to cross the wall and then three of them come together.

Indeed and is it just the Night King that can throw a spear? Could the other Walkers not throw them and kill all three dragons?

PhuckHugh

Look, how long does a lake take to freeze over to hold the weight of a few thousand wights ? i'd say we are working off around 0 by day to -15 to -20 at night - figure that out and you have your real time line

PhuckHugh

Is it possible the chain was made of ice?

Dyr

Daith wrote: »

Indeed and is it just the Night King that can throw a spear? Could the other Walkers not throw them and kill all three dragons?

The other walkers never had the makings of a varsity athlete

Seems as how we're quoting from the truly great TV shows now

turnikett1

Daith wrote: »

Indeed and is it just the Night King that can throw a spear? Could the other Walkers not throw them and kill all three dragons?

I thought that was strange too.

WW1: "Here give that spear to me I'll get this f**ker*
WW2: "No no, give it to the Night King. He's always had a decent throw on him"
Night King: "Yeah pass that over here boys, didn't win these gold medals for nothing"

They all probably could've given it a lash with the amount of spears there!

murpho999

Do people not agree that when they showed the crew sleeping that it was indication that they were there for quite a time?

EagererBeaver

murpho999 wrote: »

Do people not agree that when they showed the crew sleeping that it was indication that they were there for quite a time?

A matter of hours at most. If they were there for quite some time they'd be frozen to death.

Paddy Cow

PhuckHugh wrote: »

Look, how long does a lake take to freeze over to hold the weight of a few thousand wights ? i'd say we are working off around 0 by day to -15 to -20 at night - figure that out and you have your real time line

It wouldn't help. The ice had long frozen over but the wights were too dumb to notice. It was only when the Hound threw the rock they realised they could start walking.

Paddy Cow

murpho999 wrote: »

Do people not agree that when they showed the crew sleeping that it was indication that they were there for quite a time?

Gendry got to Eastwatch just as it was getting dark. I assume they spelt overnight and woke in the morning. The raven had the night and part of the day to get to Dany. Drogon would make fast distance and it's believable he'd do it in a few hours. Not sure about the raven though.

Conall Cernach

I'd say that the Night King waited to attack until he knew the dragons were coming as it was always part of his plan to get at least one of them. So he wasn't that fussed if the lake had frozen sufficiently or not. It's not as if the handful of lads on the island were going to cause him any trouble and he is hardly short of recruits.

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J. Marston

They attacked Hardhome which looked a large settlement. We saw in Watchers on the Wall that the Wildlings used chains on the gate. It's not a huge leap to assume they took some practical resources like chains with them. The Night King seems intelligent.

People are desperate to appear clever by pointing out plotholes despite it not really being a plothole.

Daith

J. Marston wrote: »

They attacked Hardhome which looked a large settlement. We saw in Watchers on the Wall that the Wildlings used chains on the gate. It's not a huge leap to assume they took some practical resources like chains with them. The Night King seems intelligent.

People are desperate to appear clever by pointing out plotholes despite it not really being a plothole.

I didn't think the chains were a plot hole. I just thought the NK was well prepared and/or a greenseer

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blackwhite

PhuckHugh wrote: »

Look, how long does a lake take to freeze over to hold the weight of a few thousand wights ? i'd say we are working off around 0 by day to -15 to -20 at night - figure that out and you have your real time line

murpho999 wrote: »

Do people not agree that when they showed the crew sleeping that it was indication that they were there for quite a time?

I'd have thought the combination of the lake having enough time to freeze over, combined with showing some of them sleeping, would indicate that they were there at least more than 1 day.