Season 7 Episode 6 "Beyond the Wall" - "Book readers" - Spoilers from post 2

The White Wolf

Good point about over powering the Night King.

It was effortless really in how he took out Viserion, in that all he had to do was get the spear on target. They're going to have figure out a way to level the playing field as Drogon and Rhaegal should be surviving until the beginning of the last episode at least.

Wouldn't be surprised if they avoid involving the dragons and NK in the same scene again until half way through next season. That, or Mel and the rest of the Priestesses pull some hocus pocus that awakes more dragons when sh1t is at its bleakest.

D3sperado

Liam O wrote: »

The show deviated severely from the books in season 2 and started adding reams and reams of characters that they had no plan for and eventually realised this in about season 5 when people were hating the Sand Snakes and just started a cull.

I believe at the start they had plans for Aegon et al but I mean in the last couple of seasons they've destroyed the Martells, Tyrells, Freys, Tullys (where is Edmure?) and Baratheon amongst others in very lazy ways that indicates there was no long term planning for the show at all even that early.

They were clearly winging it and you can say that's because of a book not coming out but the show was too diluted a long time before the lack of a 6th book became an issue.

I agree they absolutely butchered the Martells but don't agree on the others. What did they do to the Tyrells, Freys, Baratheons or Tullys that was so vastly different from the books (other than the Blackfish storyline and the eventual character assassination of Stannis). Edmure is in pretty much the exact same position in the show as the books. Would it be good to see Lady Stoneheart spend a season or two roaming the Riverlands picking off House Frey one Walder at a time? Probably not, unless GRRM has some master plan as to how it fits into the end game but if not, then from a tv viewer perspective, its just as satisfying (and much more time efficient) for Arya to wipe out the whole house in the space of a couple of scenes and then move on.

Just because they've been making changes since season 2 doesn't necessarily mean they've been winging it, there was no way all of the stuff GRRM wrote could have been adapted and the last two books have been way below the standard of the first three because he has literally written himself into a corner and can't figure a way out. At one stage when he was clinging to hope that he would get the books out in time he suggested that AFFC on its own could have been adapted into two or three seasons :eek:

That said a lot of the really top drawer stuff from the last couple of seasons (like the Hodor reveal) has fairly clearly come directly from GRRM so its sad for everyone that he didn't have the books finished (as it would have kept D&D on a more structured path) but D&D are showrunners, they were never going to be able to match his storytelling ability at its best. Of course they have made some terrible narrative decisions (that they could easily have done a much better way) but at least we are getting some closure on the story which unfortunately is probably more than we will get with the books

bur

Can't write off every logical inconsistency just because ... "Dragons". That's weak.

froog

dissapointed i ruined the ice dragon surprise by trawling for leaks earlier this year. thought it was a cool idea but unlikely when i read it. seems like that person who leaked the entire season plot was bang on the money.

anyway, badass episode.

my one criticism is arya. she was one of my favourite characters and now she seems like a jealous immature younger sister. far from a wise beyond her years killing machine. i found her really annoying this episode.

GottaGetGatt

My view was that the Night King was able to guide the Spear with Magic.

froog

my main complaint this season is tyrion's plan. bring a wight to cersei? come on, everyone knows she couldn't give one **** about them, even if their real. she wants her enemys dead. period. tyrion of all people should know never to trust her.

Savage Tyrant

I've rewatched the episode and I still can't figure out what's going on with Arya and Sansa.
Littlefinger pointed out that Brienne was sworn to protect both girls and intercede should one hope to harm the other... I felt that was as much to say "Have Brienne keep an eye on Arya in case she tries something"
Then Sansa sends her away to Kings Landing instead... so is she getting rid of Brienne to make a move on Arya herself without Brienne interfering?
Kings Landing seems like an incredibly dangerous place for Brienne to go (and why? Why was Sansa invited? She's still officially wanted for the murder of Joffrey)
Maybe it is Sansa's way of saying she trusts her sister anyway? But it still doesn't explain why she'd send a capable warrior sworn to protect her away to the danger of a Lions den.

J. Marston

froog wrote: »

my main complaint this season is tyrion's plan. bring a wight to cersei? come on, everyone knows she couldn't give one **** about them, even if their real. she wants her enemys dead. period. tyrion of all people should know never to trust her.

He doesn't trust her though. He's putting his trust in Jaime to control her.

Still foolish.

The White Wolf

froog wrote: »

my main complaint this season is tyrion's plan. bring a wight to cersei? come on, everyone knows she couldn't give one **** about them, even if their real. she wants her enemys dead. period. tyrion of all people should know never to trust her.

Tyrion hasn't got a lot right this season so this latest stroke is just par for the course.

Dany ignoring him may have lost her Viserion but possibly gained her a key ally. Ignoring him also put Cersei on the back foot.

He seems a bit lost right now on where his place is and it's clouding his judgement and making him ineffectual.

martingriff

J. Marston wrote: »

He doesn't trust her though. He's putting his trust in Jaime to control her.

Still foolish.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

PhlegmyMoses

turnikett1 wrote: »

I don't get why you're getting offended at other people's criticisms. To you, it might be nitpicky or whatever the f**k, to a lot of us (it's really not some insignificant vocal minority), GoT has become significantly more dumbed down and almost childish. The premise of pretty much all of season 7 has been ridiculous. I won't even get into the Euron thing.

Fair enough if you disagree but no need to say it's cringey and act like it's totally unreasonable when the truth is a notable segment of the GoT viewership have been pretty damn disappointed with season 7. As a book reader I too am happy with what are essentially cliff notes, but the cliff notes we're given are just dumb. Benjen coming in at the very last minute to save Jon? The 3rd time in one episode that the main characters have been miraculously saved at the last moment? No thanks.

I mean, if you get to say that parts of the the show are not great, surely I get to say your opinion is not great? If you disagree with me, that's fine. Just don't say I can't think that reading some of the posts in here and elsewhere is not reminiscent - to paraphrase an earlier post - of comic book guy in the Simpsons.

Nerdlingr

Well i'm gonna say it.. i thought it was a poor episode.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I mean, if you get to say that parts of the the show are not great, surely I get to say your opinion is not great? If you disagree with me, that's fine. Just don't say I can't think that reading some of the posts in here and elsewhere is not reminiscent - to paraphrase an earlier post - of comic book guy in the Simpsons.

There's terrible dialogue, entire plotlines that make no sense and superhero level characters. The thing that people like about this series and in here I'm going to guess more so, the books is that it doesn't pander to overworn tropes and a realistic look at human nature in a fantasy world. When you have to make excuses for simple things that could be improved on in nearly every way to enjoy it then it starts to wear quite thin.

PhlegmyMoses

Liam O wrote: »

There's terrible dialogue, entire plotlines that make no sense and superhero level characters. The thing that people like about this series and in here I'm going to guess more so, the books is that it doesn't pander to overworn tropes and a realistic look at human nature in a fantasy world. When you have to make excuses for simple things that could be improved on in nearly every way to enjoy it then it starts to wear quite thin.

The books are full of tropes. It is standard fantasy fare. Sure, a few "main" characters are killed off, but these characters are smokescreens for the actual real main characters, Jon and Danaerys, who couldn't be bigger, more clichéd fantasy characters if they tried.

I think people see the books as some kind of subversion of the fantasy genre, but that's not how I view them at all. It's a clever reworking of a standard high fantasy concept. Jon is basically King Arthur ffs.

Hyzepher

i think the episode proves that it wont be the dragons that defeat the Night King

Dyr

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The books are full of tropes. It is standard fantasy fare. Sure, a few "main" characters are killed off, but these characters are smokescreens for the actual real main characters, Jon and Danaerys, who couldn't be bigger, more clichfantasy characters if they tried.

I think people see the books as some kind of subversion of the fantasy genre, but that's not how I view them at all. It's a clever reworking of a standard high fantasy concept. Jon is basically King Arthur ffs.

You want a fun subversion of the fantasy trope then Joe Abercrombie is the man to go to.

I was well into a feast for crows before I realised Georgie boy is a bit of a busted flush.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The books are full of tropes. It is standard fantasy fare. Sure, a few "main" characters are killed off, but these characters are smokescreens for the actual real main characters, Jon and Danaerys, who couldn't be bigger, more clichéd fantasy characters if they tried.

I think people see the books as some kind of subversion of the fantasy genre, but that's not how I view them at all. It's a clever reworking of a standard high fantasy concept. Jon is basically King Arthur ffs.

I don't know how you can believe that. Large periods in the books are devoted to the smallfolk and world building. It's grounded in a certain amount of realism with regards character interaction and reaction to wars. There are certain main characters obviously and POVs rarely die but the world is presented in a far more realistic manner than most fantasy that I've been exposed to.

errlloyd

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I've rewatched the episode and I still can't figure out what's going on with Arya and Sansa.

What the **** are they doing in Winterfel? Assuming they're on roughly the same timeline (maybe they are not) then John has been gone for months, and Ayra has been back for weeks. In that time apparently the two girls haven't spoken to each other at all, other than the twenty lines of dialogue we have seen in snippets.

Surely they are going to sit down and want to know each other's stories since they last met. Surely two characters who have been alone and longed for family for years would get together. But no. Apparently they spend 99% of their time sitting around plotting against each other, and 1% of their time having dramatic arguments.

The way the depth and substance was written out of them so they could return to a stereotype of bickering, bitchy sisters is almost sexist.

MisterAnarchy

errlloyd wrote: »

What the **** are they doing in Winterfel? Assuming they're on roughly the same timeline (maybe they are not) then John has been gone for months, and Ayra has been back for weeks. In that time apparently the two girls haven't spoken to each other at all, other than the twenty lines of dialogue we have seen in snippets.

Not to mind the girls ,what are all the other Lords doing at Winterfell ?
Why haven't they gone back to their own lands .
Why haven't the Knights of the Vale returned to the Vale .
All they seem to be doing is sitting around grumbling about where Jon is .

The show has picked up a lot of pace this season, that cannot be denied. It has had different effects on different viewers, some like it, some don't mind, while it's ruining the show for others.

It got me thinking about the books. With reportedly only two books left in the series and so many plot threads still open by the end of the last book (ADWD), GRRM is going to have to do similar with the pace of the books if he wants to finish the story in the next two.

That's not to excuse the show, just me suggesting that this heightened pace in the show which can prove deal-breaking for some viewers, it could happen yet with the books.

martingriff

Deleted User wrote: »

The show has picked up a lot of pace this season, that cannot be denied. It has had different effects on different viewers, some like it, some don't mind, while it's ruining the show for others.

It got me thinking about the books. With reportedly only two books left in the series and so many plot threads still open by the end of the last book (ADWD), GRRM is going to have to do similar with the pace of the books if he wants to finish the story in the next two.

That's not to excuse the show, just me suggesting that this heightened pace in the show which can prove deal-breaking for some viewers, it could happen yet with the books.

I think this is it in a nutshell

The last 2 books i think will be big, Bigger then the books that were split in 2 (Book 3 and 4 I think). I don't think it will be like that in the books for 1 there is less threads and characters (In the book and you can give a better sense of time in the books. The only plot I have a hard time with and how they will end it unless they kill her as in the program is Myrcella.

Some say she is dead and its a decoy

The White Wolf

Hyzepher wrote: »

i think the episode proves that it wont be the dragons that defeat the Night King

Maybe they'll dust of Ramsay and Cersei's plot armour to put on Drogon and Rhaegal. Wouldn't feel right to me unless they survived until at least the beginning of the very last episode.

Daith

Hyzepher wrote: »

i think the episode proves that it wont be the dragons that defeat the Night King

Yes. Probably help with the wights if they're still around but that's limited. I think they'll be gone before the true end game

IR1SH RANG3R

Deleted User wrote: »

The show has picked up a lot of pace this season, that cannot be denied. It has had different effects on different viewers, some like it, some don't mind, while it's ruining the show for others.

It got me thinking about the books. With reportedly only two books left in the series and so many plot threads still open by the end of the last book (ADWD), GRRM is going to have to do similar with the pace of the books if he wants to finish the story in the next two.

That's not to excuse the show, just me suggesting that this heightened pace in the show which can prove deal-breaking for some viewers, it could happen yet with the books.

Just as an aside, this is not uncommon in fantasy and changesbeing made to split the last book(s). Thinking mainly of the excellent wheel of time series here completed after Robert Jordan's death by the brilliant Brandon Sanderson. They split the last book into three books that really worked well!

Kunkka

I presume the children of the forest will have a say in the Night King's demise.

Daith

Kunkka wrote: »

I presume the children of the forest will have a say in the Night King's demise.

Aren't they all dead?

rossie1977

A quite detailed synopsis of episode 1 from season 8 has leaked online. Interesting because I didn't think they had anything from season 8 taped?

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Daith

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I think the show suggested they were all dead? That they all lived in the cave and Bran is essentially the last person to have their knowledge.

Can anybody explain why everyone is going to Kings Landing too? Wouldn't Tyrion or Dany want it on neutral ground? Tyrion also seems to forget about Euron. If the armies and dragons are at KL, couldn't Euron take Dragonstone pretty easily?

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