Man and woman shot dead, two others injured in Dublin gangland shooting

hatrickpatrick

NIMAN wrote: »

Scum will be scum.

Can't believe there are people using this as a chance to slag off the Government and Gardaí.

To be fair, it's the government which refuses to address endemic under-sentencing of violent scum in this country, so when something like this happens it's very legitimate to question the government's commitment to the safety of its citizens.

Nobody with multiple convictions for gangland crime should be free to walk the streets. Nobody. Whether this be policed by jail time, house arrest, GPS tracking or something else is up for debate, but there needs to be something.

We have a sex offenders registry because we recognise as a society that dangerous sexual offenders are highly likely to re-offend, and that even after serving their time, tabs must be kept on them for the good of the decent, law abiding public. Can somebody please explain why the actual f*ck we don't have anything similar for gang related activity and violence?

DEFTLEFTHAND

MysticMonk wrote: »

For those who howl out for the government to build "social housing"..take a good look at this incident.

I remember watching an RTE doc on the Limerick gangs.

When the sink estates were been planned in the late 60s early 70s some Detective asked the Council, what do you think will happen when we dump hundreds of destitute families with no jobs or prospects into the same era. He was told to fcuk off.

Prophetic, they created breeding grounds for crime and life long welfare dependency.

Truly tragic.

mikeybrennan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Where are people going with all this, 'we must be hard on drug users'! There's no evidence globally that shows hardening drug related sentences etc has any sort of positive reduction in supply and use.

It fills up jails with users as has happened in the US

I'm not aware of any positive consequences from persecuting users?

Wanderer78

mikeybrennan wrote:

It fills up jails with users as has happened in the US

Maybe we could/should privatise our jails as well, that would surely help the situation!

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote: »

Irish Times says that the two who died were "very closely associated with a criminal shot dead and whose body was dumped in a laneway in Dublin 3.5 years ago."

Great way to get you to take out a digital subscription so you can trawl their archives of "3.5 years ago" and find the name of somebody from Balbutcher Drive who was shot dead in January 2014 a week after being released from prison. A career criminal with 70 convictions at the time.

Course it could have been somebody else completely.........

......but it wasn't

irishproduce

myshirt wrote: »

Part of the problem is these kids are born into dysfunctional social and economic environments that 'the rest of us' ignore. It's not our problem, it's not on our doorstep. F#ck them. Scumbags.

However, that scumbag that you meet on the Red line was once a kid, and there are currently kids in Ireland still born into appalling circumstances that no kid should be born into. They are watching an old tape of Superman and believe that maybe some day maybe someone like Superman will come and rescue them. But Superman is not coming. This is Ireland.

Without any help, these kids develop impaired coping strategies for their life challenges and have really bad social, emotional, and financial resources to swim against the tide and meet the challenge of the world they were given.

Victimisation, poverty, no role models, low self esteem, piss poor parenting, abuse, drugs, traumatisation, social isolation, paranoid behaviour, violence, suicide, all shared experiences which can enhance a 'group identify' and create hostility, hopelessness, or outright disdain for civilised society. There are even epigenetic effects to socioeconomic disadvantage and a devastating impact on a person's development from the introduction of stressors into their lives from a young age.

Regardless of where you stand on social policy, the reality is you either spend the money at the start or you spend it at the end. You spend it on the kid needing help, or you spend it on the kid when you meet him as a 21 year old criminal, drug addict, welfare recipient, or whatever. Assuming he is not in the river, as suicides very high in socioeconomic disadvantage communities. Not only if you invest in tackling socioeconomic disadvantage issues can you get better outcomes, you also get more bang for your buck. It's way more expensive dealing with it when it is too late.

I am not excusing anyone's appalling crimes, but I am saying that we have to face up to a big problem we have, and that is short changing kids dealt a bad hand in life. It is disgusting what these scumbags are after doing in broad daylight and the environment young people have to live in. We permit socioeconomic issues to persist as long as it doesn't hit the leafy suburbs of South Dublin. It's just not good enough that thousands of kids are in hotels tonight. We can do better.

Where do you stand on the states role in who has children in the first place?
I totally understand your point, it is well made.
But all of your well made points are simply post event corrective efforts for a f*ck up that happened in the first place i.e. a drug addict or very mentally disturbed person having children or even just someone who clearly is unfit to have children by common standards (Think of neglect/ abuse etc).
I think it is laudable to and valiant to continually strive for social justice and better conditions for all but I think we also have to face up to the fact that we have many many people who simply should not have children.
I do not have a solution but based on your post, you are educated in this area and I'd be genuinely interested to hear your opinion.

Benteke

One way of sorting it out would be to stop treating them as gangland criminals and start treating and sentencing them as terrorists of the state, Life without parole

septictank

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Has probably signed his own death warrant whoever he is.

Think he's might have enough problems already.

Spider Web

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I'm not suggesting Ireland is such a country. What annoys me is people still make excuses and bring out that line "one of the safest countries in the world" everytime something like this happens.

These gangs are running amok in Dublin and there is a huge heroin crisis on the streets of the city that is not being addressed. Instead of settling for less we should be expecting more otherwise it will get worse. The guards know exactly who is involved. Not enough is being done imo from a force that jumps from crisis to crisis.

Lets not settle for less ffs as we tend to do.

Nobody is saying it should be settled for - it's truly abysmal, this latest attack with children present indicates people utterly devoid of humanity.

People just respond with the "Have perspective" reply when things get a bit hysterical - e.g. saying Ireland is lawless as if it's a narco ruled country in Latin America, or when people act as though it's just an Irish thing.

Nobody wants to settle for it and any suggestions on how to tackle it would be always most welcome.

scoey

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Where are people going with all this, 'we must be hard on drug users'! There's no evidence globally that shows hardening drug related sentences etc has any sort of positive reduction in supply and use. As other have said, just legalise everything already, as all we 're doing is wasting time, money and resources fighting it. It's a health issue not a legal one.

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

Wanderer78

scoey wrote: »

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

ive only ever been to singapore from your examples, certainly felt safe there, didnt see much drug use but i ll stick my neck out and say, it goes on but probably behind closed doors.

humans have consumed mind altering substances since we ve walked the planet, this will continue until our time ceases on this planet. incarceration of users WILL NOT end consumption, period!

this is a health issue, and to be more precise, a mental health issue! 'cracking down' on drug use will and is exacerbating the root causes of drug use and addiction. the most common root causes being complex mental health issues, complex behavioral problems and personality disorders, learning disabilities etc etc etc. some of the most common issues would be things such as bipolar disorder, borderline disorder, learning disabilities such as dyslexia, various forms of autism such as adhd, asperger's etc etc etc. you will also find these are some of the most common issues of many if not most 'criminals'!

some believe, by incarcerating those that struggle with these issues, is best for all, when in fact, most reoffend upon release. one possible explanation of this is, we havent truly addressed the root causes of why these people were incarcerated in the first place. but then again, if it aint broken, why fix it!:rolleyes:

blinding

Nothing will change unless the gangsters kill some Politicians , Bankers or another high profile journalist .

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

MysticMonk

blinding wrote:

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

MysticMonk

blinding wrote:

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

Ronaldinho

blinding wrote: »

Nothing will change unless the gangsters kill some Politicians , Bankers or another high profile journalist .

The politicians and gardai should hang their heads in shame........they are not up to the job......

What changes need to be made by the politicians in your opinion?

It's obvious that the Gardai have problems from all the scandals that have emerged over the past couple of years, but I think people need to cut them some slack when it comes to their work on gangland crime. Do people expect the Guards to offer criminals a 24-7 protection service to cut down the risk of a successful hit? Personally I'd prefer the resources went towards getting convictions for the crimes of those (same) criminals.

lazybones32

MysticMonk wrote: »

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

But who is tasked with governing the Country? Who is tasked with guarding the peace? Responsibility doesn't fall on one 'category' only.

Dyr

MysticMonk wrote: »

Always blaming the government..never blame the scumbags themselves

The scumbags aren't in charge of law and order.... oddly enough.

Sofiztikated

scoey wrote: »

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

Doesn't Japan have a bit of a amphetamine problem, though?

https://www.thecabinchiangmai.com/statistics-of-japan-s-rising-drug-use/

The drugs are popular amongst truck drivers, gang members, partiers, housewives, salary men, people wanting to lose weight, and the rich of Japan

So, much the same as here, it's a variety of people getting wanked, even with the serious threat of "coming down hard!!!one!11!" on users.

ChikiChiki

Bambi wrote: »

The scumbags aren't in charge of law and order.... oddly enough.

A'int that the the truth. No point arguing. People are so thick and can't see the root cause of these issues its ridiculous.

Its up to the elected government to ensure the scumbags are properly policed ffs.

blinding

Ronaldinho wrote: »

What changes need to be made by the politicians in your opinion?

It's obvious that the Gardai have problems from all the scandals that have emerged over the past couple of years, but I think people need to cut them some slack when it comes to their work on gangland crime. Do people expect the Guards to offer criminals a 24-7 protection service to cut down the risk of a successful hit? Personally I'd prefer the resources went towards getting convictions for the crimes of those (same) criminals.

How did some of these areas end up the way they did .

Politicians on the take and feathering their own nests .

Our Gardai force particularly at leadership is rotten with cronyism and corruption . Not exactly a great example to the Gardai on the front line .

Sick politicians and sick leadership of the Gardai....Its hardly surprising we are where we are with gangsterism........

Ronaldinho

Bambi wrote: »

The scumbags aren't in charge of law and order.... oddly enough.

Law and Order starts with each and every one of us.

Then, it falls to the Government to take remedial action on legislation, policing etc. And then further, the Judiciary.

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

Dyr

Ronaldinho wrote: »

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

What people

Wanderer78

Ronaldinho wrote: »

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

what causes criminality and how do we prevent it?

Wheeliebin30

Right I see we've moved onto the Irish goverment should have the solution to solving crime which happens in every world in the country.

It was homelessness that they should have solved even though no country ever has, now it's crime.

God sake Leo you're not doing your job. We still have crime in Ireland.

Wheeliebin30

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what causes criminality and how do we prevent it?

I suppose you're gonna tell us it's the bankers and politicians and to go read some author of some book about the subject.

Meanwhile in the real world..

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I suppose you're gonna tell us it's the bankers and politicians and to go read some author of some book about the subject.

Meanwhile in the real world..

white collar criminality certain is a problem and a complex issue, all humans have the capabilities to engage in criminality. i certainly have had many opportunities in doing so, i even regularly break laws, and remain to have a clear conscience in doing so.

Spider Web

Why are people so obsessed with blaming people who are not directly responsible? (In other contexts too, not just this).

There is only one person who made the decision to become involved in violent crime, and one person who pulled the trigger.

Taking their responsibilities away from them and blaming the guards and politicians is one surefire way of giving them a laugh.

What do people think the guards should do?

MysticMonk

ChikiChiki wrote: »

A'int that the the truth. No point arguing. People are so thick and can't see the root cause of these issues its ridiculous.

Its up to the elected government to ensure the scumbags are properly policed ffs.

if I shoot a few people it's not my fault because of politicians?

Absolute horseshiite..the same remarks you see all over the echo.ie's fb page whenever scumbags behave like scumbags.

Ffs the government do more than enough for these people..time to cut them off altogether.

scoey

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Doesn't Japan have a bit of a amphetamine problem, though?

https://www.thecabinchiangmai.com/statistics-of-japan-s-rising-drug-use/



So, much the same as here, it's a variety of people getting wanked, even with the serious threat of "coming down hard!!!one!11!" on users.

The problems are on a completely different scale.

Nobody who has spent any amount of time in Japanese cities and Dublin could draw any sort of equivalance between the drug problems on the streets of the two places with a straight face.

Nobody said there are no drugs in Japan. It is impossible to wipe out criminality 100% in any country.
People feel the drug situation in Ireland/Dublin is out of hand.
There is a distinct lack of junkies roaming the streets of Tokyo and therefore an absense of the associated problems they bring so moving the goalposts to "ha, I found an article that says some people in Japan use drugs!" doesn't really say much.

Of course maybe Japanese cities are just the same as Dublin with drugs and the only solution is legalisation.
Feel free to believe whatever suits your pro drug ideology.

Uriel.

Spider Web wrote: »

Why are people so obsessed with blaming people who are not directly responsible? (In other contexts too, not just this).

There is only one person who made the decision to become involved in violent crime, and one person who pulled the trigger.

Taking their responsibilities away from them and blaming the guards and politicians is one surefire way of giving them a laugh.

What do people think the guards should do?

That's very simplistic. Why was the target targetted for example? I don't know, don't need to know and don't really care. But the person targetted was clearly involved in criminality and seems to have been for almost his entire life. His brother the same. They were a family that, at least on the surface, supported and condoned criminality. Did the two victims deserve to be shot and killed, no, of course not. But it far too simplistic to turn around and just say the gunman is the only decision maker in all this.
Sure he was the one to make the decisions to shoot etc. But the decisions and the life led by the target contribute to all of this as well

Spider Web

ChikiChiki wrote: »

A'int that the the truth. No point arguing. People are so thick and can't see the root cause of these issues its ridiculous.

The root causes are (and these don't apply to all such folks by a long shot, but when they do: ) generations of poverty and then welfare dependency, and lack of access to/valuing education so stunted emotional development, leading to anger and ignorance, leading to a sense of victimhood and entitlement.

They need a helping hand but it's a two-way street.

Are Am Eye

Spider Web wrote: »

Why are people so obsessed with blaming people who are not directly responsible? (In other contexts too, not just this).

There is only one person who made the decision to become involved in violent crime, and one person who pulled the trigger.

Taking their responsibilities away from them and blaming the guards and politicians is one surefire way of giving them a laugh.

What do people think the guards should do?

It's not either/ or.

If you kill someone you are resposible for your actions and are a bad person.

The police are responsible for investigating your crime competently and ethically and bringing you to justice. If they don't they are bad people.

More than one person can be bad or can be deserving of criticism.

The gunmen in ballymun are scumbags. Our police force is corrupt and ineffective. Those statements are not mutually exclusive.

NIMAN

Are Am Eye wrote: »

The gunmen in ballymun are scumbags. Our police force is corrupt and ineffective. Those statements are not mutually exclusive.

The entire force?
Every single member?

I bet people say that exact same thing in every country in the world.

Ronaldinho

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what causes criminality and how do we prevent it?

Criminality is a fairly broad term but if we look at the drugs trade for example, I would say there are circles that have been involved in organised crime for many, many years now and it has been passed from generation to generation. Then there are people getting caught up in it looking to make a quick buck, or because it makes them tick - be it the violence or the sense of power it gives them. And then there are people who get dragged into it, maybe not of their own volition but maybe one mistake get's them dragged into it and they can't really find a way out.
Then on the other hand, there's the people out there that use drugs that create the industry in the first place. Not blameless either.

A few people have suggested legalising drugs. That's deserving of a thread of its own. I don't have a very strong view on it either way but I think I it happened the void left by drugs would be filled by some other form of racketeering.

What can be done to prevent it? Better policing of the ports and coastline maybe. I think it's a bit of a case of whack a mole. Put one gang out of business and another will fill the void. I think another poster above put forward the idea that this this violence stems mainly from socioeconomic imbalances and that by going after those issues we will prevent a lot of crime. I'd be a bit sceptical of that - there are always going to be hardcore criminals who will never go on the straight and narrow. Ought to be a marginal benefit though.

Are Am Eye

NIMAN wrote: »

The entire force?
Every single member?

I bet people say that exact same thing in every country in the world.

The organisation is corrupt. That makes no assumptions on how many or how few individuals are, or to what extent each.

Organisational corruption is much more insidious than any individual malfeasance. It happens when there is no internal standard of ethics or accountability. And no external oversight or responsibility.

To take but one example. 20 million euro of public money was siphoned off to private bank accounts and private social clubs. The organisational corruption is the efforts that were made across various layers of hierachy and numerous individuals to hide this, subdue it and prevent anyone outside from holding them to account.

Your remark that people in every country think their police are corrupt is not backed up by any source and is manifestly untrue.

Wanderer78

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Criminality is a fairly broad term but if we look at the drugs trade for example, I would say there are circles that have been involved in organised crime for many, many years now and it has been passed from generation to generation. Then there are people getting caught up in it looking to make a quick buck, or because it makes them tick - be it the violence or the sense of power it gives them. And then there are people who get dragged into it, maybe not of their own volition but maybe one mistake get's them dragged into it and they can't really find a way out.
Then on the other hand, there's the people out there that use drugs that create the industry in the first place. Not blameless either.

A few people have suggested legalising drugs. That's deserving of a thread of its own. I don't have a very strong view on it either way but I think I it happened the void left by drugs would be filled by some other form of racketeering.

What can be done to prevent it? Better policing of the ports and coastline maybe. I think it's a bit of a case of whack a mole. Put one gang out of business and another will fill the void. I think another poster above put forward the idea that this this violence stems mainly from socioeconomic imbalances and that by going after those issues we will prevent a lot of crime. I'd be a bit sceptical of that - there are always going to be hardcore criminals who will never go on the straight and narrow. Ought to be a marginal benefit though.

we could go on and on, it really is a complex issue with complex root causes in which we dont actually fully understand, and may never fully understand, but im convinced our current approaches to certain crimes such as drug crimes have failed. it's time for something radical, a radical change in our approach. over the last few decades, enormous amounts of research has been done into a lot of these complex issues that have been discussed, unfortunately its taking a long time for this research to filter through our various social structures, including our political systems, and sadly we re stuck with what id call draconian policies and systems in order to deal with these issues. round and round we go!

blinding

Are Am Eye wrote: »

The organisation is corrupt. That makes no assumptions on how many or how few individuals are, or to what extent each.

Organisational corruption is much more insidious than any individual malfeasance. It happens when there is no internal standard of ethics or accountability. And no external oversight or responsibility.

To take but one example. 20 million euro of public money was siphoned off to private bank accounts and private social clubs. The organisational corruption is the efforts that were made across various layers of hierachy and numerous individuals to hide this, subdue it and prevent anyone outside from holding them to account.

Your remark that people in every country think their police are corrupt is not backed up by any source and is manifestly untrue.

There seems to be a lot of financial criminals in our Police force.........

Spider Web

Are Am Eye wrote: »

It's not either/ or.

If you kill someone you are resposible for your actions and are a bad person.

The police are responsible for investigating your crime competently and ethically and bringing you to justice. If they don't they are bad people.

More than one person can be bad or can be deserving of criticism.

The gunmen in ballymun are scumbags. Our police force is corrupt and ineffective. Those statements are not mutually exclusive.

I never said it had to be either/or but blame is not equal between those directly responsible and those indirectly responsible. And those indirectly responsible are *certainly* not MORE to blame (as some seem to be implying here, which is just crazy).

There is an absolute fetish for blame. When the responsible party isn't available to target, someone else will be targeted. Someone HAS to be blamed. Someone is homeless because of numerous reasons? Blame the government. A child is abused - blame social services instead of the ***** who abused them. Some blame does lie with others, but it should never be transferred disproportionately.

These criminals didn't emerge out of a vacuum of course - they would have grown up in dreadful circumstances, as would their parents and their parents and so on (but ultimately it's up to them to take responsibility for themselves, not other people). It is a complex, generational cycle - not "the guards" or non specific politicians.

To suggest that none of the guards whatsoever are working hard to tackle this very difficult issue (lack of success is not always down to incompetence) is extremely unhelpful and dishonest.

Are Am Eye

O.c executions are higher here per head of population than most other european countries. AGS lost the grip completely on organised crime a number of years ago. They don't know whats going on. Its about reversing this situation not blame for blame's sake. There are a number of key changes we need to make to the criminal Justice System. Top of the list is an outside, politically independent management brought in to run AGS. And to weed out the corruption and the inefficiencies.
What you see in ballymun yesterday are symptons of a sickness that's been brewing for years. You need to treat that sickness at source. Down the line the ugly symptoms will disipate.

hatrickpatrick

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Law and Order starts with each and every one of us.

Then, it falls to the Government to take remedial action on legislation, policing etc. And then further, the Judiciary.

If those people hadn't gotten themselves involved in criminality in the first place, the events of yesterday evening simply wouldn't have happened.

Agreed, but do you accept that by allowing such people to freely walk the streets, the government is failing to take the remedial action you have admitted that they are indeed responsible for taking?

People convicted of multiple gang related offences should NEVER again be completely free as citizens. Gangland indoctrination should be considered similarly to alcoholism - there's no such thing as a "recovered" alcoholic, only an alcoholic in ongoing recovery. If you've once fallen deeply down the gangland rabbit hole, racked up numerous convictions for violent crime, etc, as far as I'm concerned you should be permanently marked, tagged, and under surveillance - just like a sex offender.

To be honest I actually believe that such people should get genuine "until the day you die" life sentences in prison, but for some reason that idea seems to be massively unpopular.

end of the road

scoey wrote: »

Have you been to Japan lately? A developed country that comes down hard on drug users, including marajuana users. The population have little sympathy for drug users and the majority support zero tolerance.

Don't see too many heroin junkies falling around the streets of Tokyo or causing hassle for the law abiding population trying to go about their business.
I hear the cities there are pretty safe actually. And without giving up on law enforcement and resorting to legalisation.

Singapore too.

Tell me some similarly safe and free of a visible drug problem developed countries that got there by legalising drugs.
I look forward to seeing your list.

those countries still have huge drug problems. Singapore especially. drug taking and selling not being visible doesn't mean there is no problem.

kerry cow

The problem here is the demand that is created by the end user .the majority of these people are not from the lower levels of society .the vast majority of drug users are in the working and professional class .you won't have a quater of the demand if you educated the people who should know better not to be a user .
Can someone tell me simply why the end user should not be proscuted and fined heavily.
What right have these people to use illegal drugs ??

Wanderer78

kerry cow wrote: »

The problem here is the demand that is created by the end user .the majority of these people are not from the lower levels of society .the vast majority of drug users are in the working and professional class .you won't have a quater of the demand if you educated the people who should know better not to be a user .
Can someone tell me simply why the end user should not be proscuted and fined heavily.
What right have these people to use illegal drugs ??

if people choose to use drugs, thats what they choose, you have the same right as them, believe it or not!

lazybones32

I guess i better go to the gardai and tell them i'm responsible for that shooting; i've taken cocaine and therefore have blood on my hands (and up my nose)
Will my moral-superiors come visit me in prison?

Ronaldinho

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Agreed, but do you accept that by allowing such people to freely walk the streets, the government is failing to take the remedial action you have admitted that they are indeed responsible for taking?

People convicted of multiple gang related offences should NEVER again be completely free as citizens. Gangland indoctrination should be considered similarly to alcoholism - there's no such thing as a "recovered" alcoholic, only an alcoholic in ongoing recovery. If you've once fallen deeply down the gangland rabbit hole, racked up numerous convictions for violent crime, etc, as far as I'm concerned you should be permanently marked, tagged, and under surveillance - just like a sex offender.

To be honest I actually believe that such people should get genuine "until the day you die" life sentences in prison, but for some reason that idea seems to be massively unpopular.

Yeah - abolutely. I'd even be in favour of capital punishment for people who've racked up a sufficiently serious and long record. My posts above were more pushing back on the idea that the blame for these sorts of crimes lies at the door of the Government in the first place.

end of the road

kerry cow wrote: »

Can someone tell me simply why the end user should not be proscuted and fined heavily.

because taking a substance should not be a crime.

kerry cow wrote: »

What right have these people to use illegal drugs ??

what right has anyone to take a legal drug. people want to take drugs whether legal or illegal and they will do so, so it's best we allow them to do it safely and legally.

Spider Web

Are Am Eye wrote: »

O.c executions are higher here per head of population than most other european countries. AGS lost the grip completely on organised crime a number of years ago. They don't know whats going on. Its about reversing this situation not blame for blame's sake. There are a number of key changes we need to make to the criminal Justice System. Top of the list is an outside, politically independent management brought in to run AGS. And to weed out the corruption and the inefficiencies.
What you see in ballymun yesterday are symptons of a sickness that's been brewing for years. You need to treat that sickness at source. Down the line the ugly symptoms will disipate.

Sentencing is depressingly atrocious here too

But until the family issues that dog these folks (child after child being raised to believe violence and instilling fear and getting everything you want no matter what damage you do) are obliterated, I can't see much change happening.

Wanderer78

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Yeah - abolutely. I'd even be in favour of capital punishment for people who've racked up a sufficiently serious and long record. My posts above were more pushing back on the idea that the blame for these sorts of crimes lies at the door of the Government in the first place.

and again, what would we actually learn from things such as capital punishment?

our governments are elected by us to create policies that benefit us all, i.e. our governments are us! but if our governments create policies that harm most if not all of us, then us and our governments, and the subsequent policies that are created from these structures must be changed to rectify these issues.

ziggyman17

Spider Web wrote: »

The root causes are (and these don't apply to all such folks by a long shot, but when they do: ) generations of poverty and then welfare dependency, and lack of access to/valuing education so stunted emotional development, leading to anger and ignorance, leading to a sense of victimhood and entitlement.

They need a helping hand but it's a two-way street.

what absolute bollox....... My Parents, along with their sisters and brothers grew up in poverty, my parents like their siblings left school at a young age and made decent lives for themselves, my mother had her christmas presents given to her by The St Vincent De Paul, none of any of their siblings turned to crime and drugs, the main problem with this country is that their is too many families that think its is their birth right to have everything handed to them on a plate, lots of people came from the same places you are describing and most of them never turned to crime and drugs, so stop using that as an excuse,

Wanderer78

ziggyman17 wrote: »

what absolute bollox....... My Parents, along with their sisters and brothers grew up in poverty, my parents like their siblings left school at a young age and made decent lives for themselves, my mother had her christmas presents given to her by The St Vincent De Paul, none of any of their siblings turned to crime and drugs, the main problem with this country is that their is too many families that think its is their birth right to have everything handed to them on a plate, lots of people came from the same places you are describing and most of them never turned to crime and drugs, so stop using that as an excuse,

research says otherwise, apparently, some people 'get lucky'