DAB News

Phat Dick

Schorpio wrote: »

If this minimux rolls out nationwide it would silence a lot of naysayers against the implementation of DAB in Ireland.

I would love the ability to switch between these regional stations.

I wonder though would the industry be happy with such a thing to be permanent/official? I mean how would a local station fell about stations from other county's broadcasting in their area potentially taking their listeners ?

SimonMaher

Phat Dick wrote: »

I wonder though would the industry be happy with such a thing to be permanent/official? I mean how would a local station fell about stations from other county's broadcasting in their area potentially taking their listeners ?

They may not be too happy but hopefully they will take the pragmatic view (as they have done with the Irish Radioplayer app) that if nothing else, it keeps people listening to homegrown radio stations and interested in linear, home produced radio.

For now, the inter-station rivalries have to be parked in order to preserve the position of the broadcast radio industry as a whole. Also, as Scotty says above, there is great potential in the local minimux idea where a whole pile of alternative services can be provided at low cost on DAB. Again, it keeps people listening to broadcast radio at relatively low cost and the stations that provide the best content, regardless of platform, will thrive.

Let's hope the BAI sees the success of the Minimux in the UK, and follows suit here.

Simon

Former Former

Scotty66 wrote: »

Such a shame. In the UK the localised DAB trial has provided a broadcast platform for dozens of interesting new formats serving niche audiences. There's no evidence to suggest that these have posed any threat whatsoever to the existing mainstream stations. The BAI should follow Ofcom's lead and rise above the lobbyists, considering instead the wider listener benefits of the new technology.

No one is worried about the niche audiences, they're worried about the mass market. If all that was proposed for DAB was community stations and special-interest content, there wouldn't be any objections.

But if you're running Radio Kerry or Ocean FM, and suddenly you're competing with 98FM, FM104, Spin 1038, Nova, Sunshine, Red FM* and every other station in the country, then you're going to find yourself out of business pretty quickly.

Unregulated competition sounds great but it doesn't help the smaller players and it definitely does not foster diversity; in a tiny market like Ireland, a free-for-all would wipe out the regional stations.

(*yes, I know all these stations are available everywhere online anyway)

Trick of the Tail

SimonMaher wrote: »

The main purpose of the test at this stage is to demonstrate the ease and low cost by which stations can be fed to the multiplex. A very simple mini-pc in the radio station 'streaming' direct to the software based MUX. When the original DAB tests with all the hardware were done years back the capital costs were huge and this Minimux demonstrates that this is not now the case! Very impressive tech and interesting to see how it develops. Aerials at low height currently, that can be changed once the MUX technology is tested and demonstrated.

Simon

The tests that Total Broadcast did in the south east the capital costs weren't huge at all (after the development costs) - in fact the system used then was identical to that now being tested - again.

Those tests pre-dated the mini-mux tests in the UK from which the current ones are derived.

It worked 5 years ago, it works now.

SimonMaher

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

The tests that Total Broadcast did in the south east the capital costs weren't huge at all (after the development costs) - in fact the system used then was identical to that now being tested - again.

Those tests pre-dated the mini-mux tests in the UK from which the current ones are derived.

It worked 5 years ago, it works now.

You're right TOTT, The more technically minded know that the technology works but I think that this trial is as much a demo is aimed as much at demonstrating the technology to IBI members as it is in showing how robust the new software solutions are.

I don't agree with Formers point above that having locals on other locals patch on a 48k DAB+ stream will wipe out anything. For most non-urban listeners (e.g. those for Ocean, Radio Kerry etc as mentioned) it's the localness that makes the station. Having locals available widely poses no threat to anybody, just provides a service to an ex-pat who likes the sound of home. On the younger side, have the iRadios and Beats of this world so little confidence in themselves and their product that they don't believe they could compete with Spin or Red on DAB+?

Possibly the competition from out-of-franchise but still local players argument might have held some water 10 years ago but in these days of Radioplayer, Apps, Spotify, Deezer, Apple Music, Amazon Echos, Sonos, TuneIn etc it's an utterly moot point.

The only thing that will screw FM radio over in Ireland is stations spending their time battling niche broadcast platforms, and niche players, while two internet companies who don't own any radio stations at all take all their money and render the whole argument academic anyway.

Simon

More Music

Former Former wrote: »

....
But if you're running Radio Kerry or Ocean FM, and suddenly you're competing with 98FM, FM104, Spin 1038, Nova, Sunshine, Red FM* and every other station in the country, then you're going to find yourself out of business pretty quickly.....

To be honest I think that’s the other way around. The likes of Radio Kerry have nothing to fear from Red FM etc. You look at investment in studios, OB units and technology over the years. Financially stable.

Also, think about people leaving the town they grew up in to find work or study. It’s mostly one way traffic. Leaving the small towns of Ireland to live in Dublin and Cork etc. They would love to hear their local station in these cities.

The Cush

More Music wrote: »

Also, think about people leaving the town they grew up in to find work or study. It’s mostly one way traffic. Leaving the small towns of Ireland to live in Dublin and Cork etc. They would love to hear their local station in these cities.

Definitely agree with this, back in analogue satellite days, using a Pace MSS100 satellite receiver, in Dublin, I could tune in Radio Limerick One.

At the time IIRC it was the only local licensed radio station to broadcast via satellite until they lost their licence in the mid 90s.

It was great to be able to tune in occasionally to the local news but most listened to were the national stations via the radio.

Trick of the Tail

All true, but a local station being able to be heard outside its franchise area doesn't help them in any way. They can't sell outside their area, and listeners don't show up in the surveys.

I don't think the FMers care about out-of-area competition. They know it won't erode their local audience much, if at all.

[Except maybe if DAB were to be introduced in the South-East, for example, where there is no 4FM].

However they do not want competition from other services; they'd all hate to have their listeners be able to hear stations carrying country music, oldies, nostalgia, rock etc - as they might lose share that way.

That's why they will grudgingly accept the inevitable introduction of DAB, but only on their terms - which are that only the IBI stations are audible on it.

end of the road

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

All true, but a local station being able to be heard outside its franchise area doesn't help them in any way. They can't sell outside their area, and listeners don't show up in the surveys.

I don't think the FMers care about out-of-area competition. They know it won't erode their local audience much, if at all.

[Except maybe if DAB were to be introduced in the South-East, for example, where there is no 4FM].

However they do not want competition from other services; they'd all hate to have their listeners be able to hear stations carrying country music, oldies, nostalgia, rock etc - as they might lose share that way.

That's why they will grudgingly accept the inevitable introduction of DAB, but only on their terms - which are that only the IBI stations are audible on it.

i wonder if that would be against EU competition rules though? as it would be essentially favouring 1 organisation and it's members.

rogue-entity

end of the road wrote: »

i wonder if that would be against EU competition rules though? as it would be essentially favouring 1 organisation and it's members.

Except that has been the status quo for radio in Ireland since 1989. To paraphrase a legend:

"Despite the fact that listeners want the right to choose what station they listen to (on FM), those in power still continue to deny them that right"

real rocker

I noticed yesterday that many regional Irish stations plus Today FM wrer displaying in the DAB list although not successfully loading. Is another test under way I wonder? Can't see any news re such a development.

Schorpio

real rocker wrote: »

I noticed yesterday that many regional Irish stations plus Today FM wrer displaying in the DAB list although not successfully loading. Is another test under way I wonder? Can't see any news re such a development.

Where are you located? Dublin?

The Cush

real rocker wrote: »

I noticed yesterday that many regional Irish stations plus Today FM wrer displaying in the DAB list although not successfully loading. Is another test under way I wonder? Can't see any news re such a development.

There is no audio stream for a number of stations on the trial muxes including Today FM.

real rocker

Where are you located? Dublin? YES

kleefarr

Looking into the DAB for our local community radio station. www.crkc.ie
We have programs going out on air and when not on air the Sampro PC takes over.

We are looking into a viable DAB solution but so far coming up with nothing.

The Cush

Recent Irish Times article on DAB, https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/tuning-out-digital-radio-fails-to-make-waves-1.3382499

This from the article in relation to the subject of this thread

David Timpson has been involved in RTɒs digital broadcasting efforts since the very beginning and he agrees that a greater engagement from the commercial broadcasters is necessary to push DAB as a viable format.

“We do not enjoy being on the platform by ourselves,” Timpson says. “We look at developments in other countries, such as Norway and Switzerland, and we see the developments in digital radio in those countries, and the only way that those guys have managed to advance the platform of digital radio to the stage that they’re at, is through collaboration with the industry.

“We’ve said it publicly: look, we’re not going any further. RTÉ, as an organisation, we’re not going to go any further with digital radio until such a time as the industry acts together. We are at a stage where we’re trying to collectively decide what next steps we might take.”

The Irish Radioplayer app is the best example of the kind of collaboration Timpson is talking about. It’s a joint effort from RTÉ and the independent broadcasters that makes 43 Irish radio stations available within a single app, and it has been successful in making Irish radio more discoverable and more accessible. It recently became available on Amazon Echo and Google Home.

In a small addendum to the project, Timpson and his colleagues have used just two small masts on top of the RTÉ radio building to digitally broadcast all the same stations to the Donnybrook area. It’s a localised proof-of-concept: a pair of transmitters carrying practically all the radio stations in the country.

This digital signal automatically and seamlessly takes over from Radioplayer’s internet stream, providing a hybrid, free-to-air solution within a mobile app environment. It’s not necessarily how things would work on a national scale, but for Timpson it shows the power and simplicity of the technology.

“We wanted to use that project as a prism that the industry could look through to perhaps ask how we could take the next step together,” he says. “At the moment we’re in the process of finding ways to collaborate and make a collective decision. And it has to be a decision that would be perceived by the rest of the industry as viable.

Mickey Mike

I personally feel there is no need for Dab/+ in Ireland, if so it would be launched years ago. Commercial Radio can be carried on the Saorview platform nationwide and local Radio carried on local Saorview transmitters, for example Radio Kerry served from Mulliganish , 98fm from Tree Rock, Clare FM from Maghera and so on.
What is the problem with that? An ideal solution as it coexist with FM broadcasts.

end of the road

the reality is very few people listen to their radio via tv, so carying commercial radio via Saorview while nice wouldn't be financially viable.
there certainly is a need for dab but it needs to be pushed, and right now there isn't the funding or will to do it. at least the BAI seem to be working on the possibility of a legal framework for it, which is something. it couldn't have happened years ago as the money wasn't there for a long time and there was no legal framework for stations to operate on it.

marno21

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I personally feel there is no need for Dab/+ in Ireland, if so it would be launched years ago. Commercial Radio can be carried on the Saorview platform nationwide and local Radio carried on local Saorview transmitters, for example Radio Kerry served from Mulliganish , 98fm from Tree Rock, Clare FM from Maghera and so on.
What is the problem with that? An ideal solution as it coexist with FM broadcasts.

As far as I know there is one multiplex distributed nationwide with no option to include separate services locally.

The other issue is that relays don't always rebroadcast a feed from their local county. All of the west Cork transmitters relay Mullaghanish for example

ghostdancer

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I personally feel there is no need for Dab/+ in Ireland, if so it would be launched years ago. Commercial Radio can be carried on the Saorview platform nationwide and local Radio carried on local Saorview transmitters, for example Radio Kerry served from Mulliganish , 98fm from Tree Rock, Clare FM from Maghera and so on.
What is the problem with that? An ideal solution as it coexist with FM broadcasts.

how do I listen to a Saorview-based station in my car?

rogue-entity

kleefarr wrote: »

Looking into the DAB for our local community radio station. www.crkc.ie
We have programs going out on air and when not on air the Sampro PC takes over.

We are looking into a viable DAB solution but so far coming up with nothing.

You are not alone.

The Cush wrote: »

Recent Irish Times article on DAB, https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/tuning-out-digital-radio-fails-to-make-waves-1.3382499

I disagree that there needs to be any "collaboration with the industry".

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I personally feel there is no need for Dab/+ in Ireland, if so it would be launched years ago. Commercial Radio can be carried on the Saorview platform nationwide and local Radio carried on local Saorview transmitters.broadcasts.

FM stations benefit from a captive audience, you listen to what is available and you either like it or lump it; DAB takes that away. There is a dire need outside Dublin for some choice on the radio dial.

Saorview is prohibitively expensive for any small operator, and, puts everyone at the mercy of 2RN; it would repeat the mistakes of the initial rollout of DAB in the UK. On top of that, I want to listen in my car, not my TV.

end of the road wrote: »

At least the BAI seem to be working on the possibility of a legal framework for it, which is something. it couldn't have happened years ago as the money wasn't there for a long time and there was no legal framework for stations to operate on it.

This framework already exists and has done for a long time, it is what allowed Zenith to broadcast on the second DAB trial by DBDB.

Mickey Mike

ghostdancer wrote: »

how do I listen to a Saorview-based station in my car?

I'm sure they are car radios that have a UHF digital band and all you do is listen to the audio, simple.

JDxtra

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I'm sure they are car radios that have a UHF digital band and all you do is listen to the audio, simple.

Not possible.

Ursus Horribilis

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I'm sure they are car radios that have a UHF digital band and all you do is listen to the audio, simple.

Cars are now being sold with DAB. If they'd managed the roll-out of DAB properly when there was money floating around, people might actually have something to listen to in their car.

end of the road

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I'm sure they are car radios that have a UHF digital band and all you do is listen to the audio, simple.

there are no such radios. even if there were, saorview as the platform wouldn't be viable.

marno21

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I'm sure they are car radios that have a UHF digital band and all you do is listen to the audio, simple.

Unless you have a tracked directional UHF antenna in the roof it'll be next to useless

TAFKAlawhec

DVB-T/T2 receivers for in-car use do exist. However they're intended mainly for places/countries whose DVB-T networks are designed for portable & mobile reception and are really for viewing TV channels than audio, in a similar fashion to in-car DVD players are in that the display screens are usually placed behind front seat head rests and sometimes the head unit.

For such a mobile system to ideally work there needs to be (i) some form of single frequency network, and (ii) use of vertical or mixed polarisation used for transmission (or at least some of the SFN sites using vertical polarity). Cheaper units have one aerial input, more advanced receivers have two or four inputs to allow for diversity reception.

The DVB-T network in Ireland (and also the UK) isn't designed for such, being a multi-frequency network with most of the high-powered transmitters being horizontally polarised which doesn't easily lend itself to being received by moving vehicles. Portable, outdoor reception at a fixed spot is possible to a limited extent, but not really mobile. The network overall is intended for reception with roof top aerials, though quite a lot of people can get away with attic or indoor aerials.

To be more precise, no general receiver exists solely to receive audio-only channels from DVB-T broadcasts for in-car listening. There have been some tests in using a slightly modified form of the DVB-T2 standard labelled "DVB-T2 lite" which uses the same 1.7MHz bandwidth spread as DAB but using general DVB-T2 standards with some extra attributes (like FEC modes 1/3 and 1/4 to give rugged reception in noisy/weak signal areas) and some other transmission modes to reduce complexity for decoding chips, but no country has announced plans to adopt DVB-T2 lite for terrestrial radio at present.

The TL:DR version - in-car radio reception using the Saorview DVB-T network is a non-runner.

Fran1985

So ive given up on FM at home for now. Its got to the stage where ya can nearly guess the next song to play. So i hit the DAB button on the radio for a change (forgot about it for a while). Sad to see so few stations on it. Im enjoying rte pulse. Good music, not the usual repetitiveness of the FM stations. Presenters (the ones ive heard during the day) arent great but id imagine a lot are starting out and using it as a platform to get experience so i can live with them because of the variety of music and its music that id be into.

Pity DAB hasn't taken off. It would've been nice to have the variety with the 80s and 90s stations etc that were running on it previously. It doesnt even look like radio rira is on it anymore? I think in the last 12-24 months fm radio (in dublin especially) has got so dull and samey so with a bit of promotion and right variety again the time could be right to bring DAB back and make another go of it. I notice the button in more and more cars too but im not sure people know much about it.

Interesting to see the majority of listening in the UK is now digital. Probably because they gave it a proper go.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-44146011

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

I think internet radio and small mobile bluetooth speakers/amazon echo etc are the death of DAB really.

Fran1985

Kimora Drab Gladiator wrote: »

I think internet radio and small mobile bluetooth speakers/amazon echo etc are the death of DAB really.

I wouldn't agree with that fully. I think it will drop off a bit but people listen to the radio for local news, traffic, international news and a lot of people love a competition that ya can text into. I think that'll mean local/national radio will survive as a result. DAB will give variety and if done right could work along side streaming etc. People can still play local radio to their Bluetooth speaker. I say this based on the belief the rule book of 20% speech, Irish music etc should be thrown out and a new business model being brought in.

Antenna

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

All true, but a local station being able to be heard outside its franchise area doesn't help them in any way. They can't sell outside their area, and listeners don't show up in the surveys.

Surely it will come into the equation in areas where there is significant commuting out to surrounding areas every day ?

Many people do most of their radio listening in their cars, not at home, and much of their time in the car is whilst commuting..

Consider Clare FM - There is very significant commuting out of Co. Clare by Co. Clare residents to Limerick City and Galway city every day. Listeners can still hear Clare FM on FM on their car radios in those places.

If the so-called 'spillover' FM reception of Clare FM to Limerick and Galway cities and other surrounding areas was somehow eliminated, commuters who are Co. Clare residents driving home and could not longer get Clare FM on their car radios at the start of their journey home (and will probably not bother switch on later on either) surely it would not-insignificantly negatively affect them in listener-ship surveys of Co. Clare residents?

evolutionqy7

Fran1985 wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that fully. I think it will drop off a bit but people listen to the radio for local news, traffic, international news and a lot of people love a competition that ya can text into. I think that'll mean local/national radio will survive as a result.

Time will tell, while I do listen to Newstalk Live a lot, they have nearly everything on Podcasts these days. Means I don't tune into their radio station. I just press play on pre-downloaded podcasts in car or even at home when doing chores or something.



I can skip shows/topics I've no interest in but stay up to date with all the latest stuff.

I don't believe DAB will ever get to a point like that.

It's a tough time for radio. I think the quality of programming just isn't there any more, the music is crap.

Turn on 2FM these days and you hear the most horrible crap that I doubt anyone listen to.

A lot of the younger people in work use Spotify and listen to a lot older music which surprised me but a lot of them said the music on 2Fm is Sh1t.

Not just 2FM, radio is littered with pop crap and I know nobody who listens to it.

The radio stations are obviously getting paid a lot of money to play this crap that no one cares for.

RTE Gold is much better. I listen to it in the Car on DAB but it breaks up a lot and then when I get near Carlow it just completely dies......

Even RTE Radio One are playing much more modern music , too modern for many of R1 listener age groups.

DAB is being hailed as much cheaper needing far fewer transmitters but I think someone was telling porkies because the coverage is crap so my guess is that they will realise that they probably need twice the transmitters they thought costing a lot more than they thought.

It's the same in Germany, When I was there in the Summer my Partners Dad has DAB in the car and it's useless, Picking up SWR1 was a chore , switch to FM and perfect.

They switched off all MW transmitters for this muck ?

We're being told that one of the advantages of DAB is better sound ? not at current DAB standards, perhaps DAB+ which doesn't exist in Ireland at least.

You don't have to "tune the radio" as if that's hard to do ? I don't have to tune my FM radio in the car , the stations are there as the radio picks them up. So another "no need for DAB"

DAB offers text ? so does FM, another "no need for DAB"

I think FM sounds rather good for radio so what's the point ?

DAB is being touted as a new "modern" technology which I find rather amusing considering it was invented in around 1985 lol and marketing "digital" to mean Digital is better is just that, marketing.

radioguru02

Why would an ILR have the slightest interest in being picked up outside the areas to which they’re licensed to broadcast? The only people who would ever have an interest in broadcasting on DAB are com radio and smaller, more niche broadcasters... that being if the internet didn’t exist

end of the road

pirateradiohed wrote: »

Why would an ILR have the slightest interest in being picked up outside the areas to which they’re licensed to broadcast? The only people who would ever have an interest in broadcasting on DAB are com radio and smaller, more niche broadcasters... that being if the internet didn’t exist

ILR are already being picked up outside their licenced areas anyway, some for quite a distance, so their lack of interest in being picked up outside their area is already redundant tbh. in fact if there were local muxes as well as a national network local stations could probably be kept to within their area as i think dab is better able to restrict coverage. dispite the internet's existence, niche and many other types of broadcasters are broadcasting on dab in countries where it exists. what is likely to make dab redundant here, if that does in fact turn out to be the case, is internet coverage being wide spread in cars. we are a small country, so it is easier to put internet infrastructure in place then in somewhere like the uk for example. however, niche broadcasters and listener choice is exactly why getting a framework for dab operation in place is vital. if no interest arrises then so be it but at least the option is available.

The Cush

Viamux, the people who installed the small-scale DAB equipment in Dublin and Cork last year were back in Dublin this week meeting with people from Cignal.

https://twitter.com/viamux/status/1100371286277136384

Cignal recently announced a €25m investment to build up to 300 new towers nationwide

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/cignal-invests-25m-in-infrastructure-to-boost-telecoms-37534450.html
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/cignal-investment-mobile-rural-blackspots-ireland

digitalise

end of the road wrote: »

...at least the BAI seem to be working on the possibility of a legal framework for it, which is something. it couldn't have happened years ago as the money wasn't there for a long time and there was no legal framework for stations to operate on it.

It may be in the strategy document but the BAI aren't working on it. They cancelled a nationwide FM licence blaming the economy. There is no legal framework for licensing DAB multiplexes. However, under their existing licence, stations are able to broadcast on Saorview and DAB (if it existed).

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Cars are now being sold with DAB. If they'd managed the roll-out of DAB properly when there was money floating around, people might actually have something to listen to in their car.

The new EU directive means all new cars sold from 1st Jan 2021 must have a digital radio fitted.

The truth has nothing to do with the technology. I've listened to many people talk about DAB and they come to the subject with their minds already made up. So what I have to say won't change their minds.

DAB is generally more efficient in its use of spectrum than analogue FM radio, and thus can offer more radio services for the same given bandwidth. If you want greater choice DAB is the way to go over AM/FM. And as for coverage - we didn't stop rolling out mobile phones just because coverage was poor at the start. We made sure mobile phone companies put coverage where we needed it. The same with DAB.

The bare truth here is that those who already have analogue licences don't want any more issued and they certainly don't want DAB licences issues. That would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. We might end up with all sorts of new stations and formats popping up all over the place to give listeners what they want - genre-specific stations like Sport, Rock, Easy Listening, Jazz, Country, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the rest. It's no wonder that radio here is stalled. It's not being run for listeners it's being run for shareholders and advertisers. It needs a bloody good shake up.

turbocab

digitalise wrote: »

It may be in the strategy document but the BAI aren't working on it. They cancelled a nationwide FM licence blaming the economy. There is no legal framework for licensing DAB multiplexes. However, under their existing licence, stations are able to broadcast on Saorview and DAB (if it existed).



The new EU directive means all new cars sold from 1st Jan 2021 must have a digital radio fitted.

The truth has nothing to do with the technology. I've listened to many people talk about DAB and they come to the subject with their minds already made up. So what I have to say won't change their minds.

DAB is generally more efficient in its use of spectrum than analogue FM radio, and thus can offer more radio services for the same given bandwidth. If you want greater choice DAB is the way to go over AM/FM. And as for coverage - we didn't stop rolling out mobile phones just because coverage was poor at the start. We made sure mobile phone companies put coverage where we needed it. The same with DAB.

The bare truth here is that those who already have analogue licences don't want any more issued and they certainly don't want DAB licences issues. That would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. We might end up with all sorts of new stations and formats popping up all over the place to give listeners what they want - genre-specific stations like Sport, Rock, Easy Listening, Jazz, Country, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the rest. It's no wonder that radio here is stalled. It's not being run for listeners it's being run for shareholders and advertisers. It needs a bloody good shake up.

fm commercial radio is dying a slow death and the present incumbents all playing there same 300 songs everday is whats killing it ,and one music station in the capital is playing the same 50 songs all day,why do you think the listeners are abandoning music fm radio in there droves

PatenLowe

Hi...It varies from radio to radio. There is no real standard for this. For example I have a Roberts Ecologic DAB radio which has a removable telescopic aerial which then leaves behind a standard F-Type socket to which an external aerial can be connected.
Other radios have fixed aerials so can't be so easily adapted. If you are competent with a basic tool set and a soldering iron you could buy a panel mount socket and mount that on the back of the radio and take the wire going to the aerial and join it onto the socket instead. That would cost pennies. Might be a bit more expensive if you asked someone else to do it - no idea how much as that depends on the person doing the work.

More Music

turbocab wrote: »

fm commercial radio is dying a slow death and the present incumbents all playing there same 300 songs everday is whats killing it ,and one music station in the capital is playing the same 50 songs all day...

You make it sound like it's just in Ireland and only recently.

Heavy rotation music stations have been around for ever. Nova, Kiss, Atlantic 252.

turbocab wrote: »

why do you think the listeners are abandoning music fm radio in there droves

Because of streaming music services, obviously. And the competition for listeners ears. DAB will only serve to further dilute that.

Anyway, if a DAB MUX launched with 20 stations tomorrow it's going to be jammed with lower quality audio versions of existing FM services and a few playout computers offering 80's and 90's jukeboxes.

What's the point, we can get all that at the moment? We're 10 years too late to the DAB party now.

BTW, I was a great supporter of it when RTE started with those trials 12 years ago. That was the time to launch it properly. Not now, just for the sake of doing it when there's no listener or technological advantage.

turbocab

More Music wrote: »

You make it sound like it's just in Ireland and only recently.

Heavy rotation music stations have been around for ever. Nova, Kiss, Atlantic 252.



Because of streaming music services, obviously. And the competition for listeners ears. DAB will only serve to further dilute that.

Anyway, if a DAB MUX launched with 20 stations tomorrow it's going to be jammed with lower quality audio versions of existing FM services and a few playout computers offering 80's and 90's jukeboxes.

What's the point, we can get all that at the moment? We're 10 years too late to the DAB party now.

BTW, I was a great supporter of it when RTE started with those trials 12 years ago. That was the time to launch it properly. Not now, just for the sake of doing it when there's no listener or technological advantage.

that heavy rotation in the 80s and 90s was ok back then ,not now in my opinion, and what about a station that would play 60s and 70s that generation has been forgotten on irsh music fm stations you would think pop music only began in 1980

More Music

turbocab wrote: »

that heavy rotation in the 80s and 90s was ok back then ,not now in my opinion.....

Ah ok, heavy rotation was ok when there was less choice. Makes sense.

turbocab wrote: »

...and what about a station that would play 60s and 70s that generation has been forgotten on irsh music fm stations you would think pop music only began in 1980

Ok, so add 60's and 70's to the automated DAB jukebox also. I only used 80's and 90's as an example.

turbocab

More Music wrote: »

Ah ok, heavy rotation was ok when there was less choice. Makes sense.



Ok, so add 60's and 70's to the automated DAB jukebox also. I only used 80's and 90's as an example.

yeh you could get away with heavy rotation when there was no choice,now there is more choice that's why it doesn't work today ,as for adding the 70s and 80s they would be of a generation that would still listen to music radio on fm ,the present tennage generation don't listen to fm radio, or the 20 somethings the smartphone has seen that off ,so the present fm music stations are still dying a slow death ,only this week the were looking for derogations, and subsidies from the state, the writings on the wall for most of them

rogue-entity

digitalise wrote: »

There is no legal framework for licensing DAB multiplexes. However, under their existing licence, stations are able to broadcast on Saorview and DAB (if it existed)

From what I can work out, the legal framework exists but the BAI simply choose not to exercise it. Section 133.3 reads:

The Communications Regulator, at the request of the Authority, shall issue to the Authority under the Acts of 1926 to 2009, subject to this Part, sound broadcasting multiplex licences in respect of the establishment, maintenance and operation of one or more sound broadcasting multiplexes, which multiplexes shall, in so far as it is reasonably practicable, be capable of being transmitted by digital terrestrial means to the whole community in an area of the State specified by the Authority, which area may consist of the whole or any part of the State, in accordance with contracts to be entered into by the Authority under section 136 (2).

The ball lies squarely in the BAI's court - and being entirely captured by the incumbent broadcasters - has absolutely zero incentive to do anything in this area. And when they do choose to do it, Section 136.2 will mean the 'licence' would be open to the highest bidder so naturally only those with deep pockets will afford it and of course that means we'll repeat the mistakes the UK made instead of learning from them.

digitalise wrote: »

The bare truth here is that those who already have analogue licences don't want any more issued and they certainly don't want DAB licences issues. That would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. We might end up with all sorts of new stations and formats popping up all over the place to give listeners what they want - genre-specific stations like Sport, Rock, Easy Listening, Jazz, Country, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and the rest. It's no wonder that radio here is stalled. It's not being run for listeners it's being run for shareholders and advertisers. It needs a bloody good shake up.

The root of the issue is that the BAI is funded by the same broadcasters it's tasked with regulating, so it has every incentive to protect the market from competition. The alternative broadcasting platforms are in such a way as not to be a particular threat to the status quo:
Radio Broadcasting in Ireland is just another private members club.

turbocab wrote: »

fm commercial radio is dying a slow death and the present incumbents all playing there same 300 songs everday is whats killing it, and one music station in the capital is playing the same 50 songs all day,why do you think the listeners are abandoning music fm radio in there droves

Commercial radio output trends towards whatever draws the most 'lucrative' advertising base. Yet I would propose that if a particular genre of music is not being broadcast, e.g. Dance, because that doesn't bring in (as) much money, then it's not competing for the same listeners and so granting it a broadcasting licence is adding choice and plurality.

More Music wrote: »

Anyway, if a DAB MUX launched with 20 stations tomorrow it's going to be jammed with lower quality audio versions of existing FM services and a few playout computers offering 80's and 90's jukeboxes.

That assumes that a single commercial operator will pay an exuberant price for both the spectrum and the transmission equipment, then seek to recover that cost by cramming in as many stations as possible; that doesn't have to be the case (even though I expect it would be with our record of ignoring the mistakes of others).

The Cush

rogue-entity wrote: »

And when they do choose to do it, Section 136.2 will mean the 'licence' would be open to the highest bidder so naturally only those with deep pockets will afford it and of course that means we'll repeat the mistakes the UK made instead of learning from them.

The commercial DAB mux licence award would most likely be in the form of a beauty contest (fixed licence fee), similar to the failed commercial DTT licence process about 10 years ago. That failed because the winning bidders wouldn't put a €20m security bond in place to protect 2rn's network upgrade investment if the private commercial venture failed.

Viamux, a UK company founded out of the small scale DAB trial process appear to be taking an interest in DAB here, with their involvement in the RTÉ's trial mux out of Donnybrook and the eirdab mux in Cork. Also recently meeting with Cignal, who own a network of transmission towers.

Of course nothing can happen until the BAI put the framework in place. This is their current position from late last year.

To date, the BAI and the industry have not explored this area of licensing activity in any great depth due to a number of factors, in particular, the significant contraction in advertising revenues caused by the recession in 2008 and the continued pressure on advertising revenues since then.

The radio sector has withstood digital disruption to date, but there is a fundamental shift in the listening habits of the younger audience that requires that the radio industry consider how it will engage with this audience in five or more year’s time. The commercial radio sector needs to evolve its business model and develop digital strategies that have the potential to secure the viability of the radio sector in the longer term.

The BAI is committed to exploring the potential for digital radio, including platforms. This will be accomplished by establishing a working group to review sustainability in the radio sector and commissioning an independent expert review of the potential for digital audio broadcasting.

SimonMaher

The above BAI position is where I reckon the fundamental flaw lies. There is a (falsely IMHO) accepted wisdom that the introduction of new services be they DAB, Terrestrial or other would fragment audience and take revenue from existing licenced BAI radio stations. The flaw here though is to see this through the narrow prism of individual station earnings. The far larger problem is that advertising money is deserting Radio at quite an alarming rate and looks likely to continue to do that (ref Core Outlook 2019 which shows the downward trend continuing).

By contrast, in the UK Radio revenue has continued to rise despite the proliferation of new radio services. Radio revenues in the UK are growing while here in Ireland, they are shrinking. That pot of revenue effects every player in the market. If there is more revenue in radio to go around then everyone gains, if there is less revenue then everyone suffers and we get into this spiral of shouting about how Facebook and Google are modern day "pirates".

If we keep things as they are and the accepted wisdom continues to prevail in the BAI (under serious lobbying from the existing players) then there is no reason to believe that the trends will change and the radio business continues to head towards the revenue cliff shouting all the way about the injustice of it all while refusing to believe that there might be another way.

Simon
8Radio.com

Excellent post,Simon! Stations here are in a rut and need to diversify,especially in rural areas! Too much country on the dials and a fear of being competitive as they try to hold what they have. The UK, as you say, has so many new stations opening and I cite the recent opening of the new classical station, Scala which aims to make classical music more accessible to the masses! We need ideas similar to that here in Ireland but it won’t happen as nobody is brave enough to try something different, except for you Simon with the excellent 8radio!
Open a country station here and you are on a winner, it seems!
They don’t want DAB here as then there will be too much choice on the dial and their existing audience will be diluted!

Former Former

If someone could come up with a viable DAB proposal, I'm sure the BAI would be happy enough to facilitate.

I've yet to see one tbh.

SimonMaher

Former Former wrote: »

If someone could come up with a viable DAB proposal, I'm sure the BAI would be happy enough to facilitate.

I've yet to see one tbh.

Just to correct a factual inaccuracy here Former. Not referring to your view on proposals to date - that's your view and well done on having seen and assessed all the proposals that have ever been submitted

The official position from BAI on DAB is that they would NOT facilitate any DAB Mux operator, regardless of ownership/viability/capability. This has been, and remains the official policy position and has been delivered to organisations both large (very large in some cases) and small in recent years.

Simon
8Radio.com

Former Former

SimonMaher wrote: »

Just to correct a factual inaccuracy here Former. Not referring to your view on proposals to date - that's your view and well done on having seen and assessed all the proposals that have ever been submitted

That's unnecessarily obnoxious tbh, I didn't claim that I had seen all the proposals.

But enlighten me, what is the answer?

SimonMaher wrote: »

The official position from BAI on DAB is that they would NOT facilitate any DAB Mux operator, regardless of ownership/viability/capability. This has been, and remains the official policy position and has been delivered to organisations both large (very large in some cases) and small in recent years.

Simon
8Radio.com

Isn't the official position that they're exploring ways to do it?