Can You Drive Alone On A Provisional In Ireland?

Sue Pa Key Pa

Fieldog wrote: »

This is the reason most of our parents are shíte drivers...

The drivers of that generation are the most sought after demographic by all insurers

paleoperson

Pure tashte wrote: »

I thought I had heard that insurance was still valid, despite it being against the law, if L/N plates aren't displayed? Or maybe it's just N plates?

It is still valid. Driving without insurance is extremely illegal, it wouldn't be "null and void" at all. There might be some issues with some insurance payouts however. The reason a lot of people don't put them up is because if police see them with an L up and noone in the passenger seat they can tell immediately they're in the wrong, but with no L up they can't tell.

BlazingSaddler

paleoperson wrote: »

It is still valid. Driving without insurance is extremely illegal, it wouldn't be "null and void" at all. There might be some issues with some insurance payouts however. The reason a lot of people don't put them up is because if police see them with an L up and noone in the passenger seat they can tell immediately they're in the wrong, but with no L up they can't tell.

You should read the small print very very closely on the policy if you're taking the risk of driving on your own as a learner

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/motor-cover-rules-hang-you-out-to-dry-34410272.html

MadDog76

AidanadiA wrote: »

If you drive on a provisional licence without a sponsor/full licence holder your insurance policy is null and void, also if you don't have your L/N plates on display.

I passed my driving test last year, during the time I had my provisional licence I never drove with out my sponsor and the car always had L plates on.

That's not true, Insurance is still valid.

punisher5112

They will pay out to third party but will most likely go after policy holder for any cost incurred.

Also they will not pay for policy holders damage or costs.

Sam Kade

bananabread12 wrote: »

I know a lot of people do it but what exactly is the law?

My uncle believes you can drive alone on a Provisional License/Learner Permit in Ireland but ONLY if it's not your first one i.e - you can drive alone if it's your second Provisional ect. I told him he was wrong?

What exactly is the deal here? Seems very confusing...

It's a learners permit not a provisional licence.

AudreyHepburn

bananabread12 wrote: »

I know a lot of people do it but what exactly is the law?

My uncle believes you can drive alone on a Provisional License/Learner Permit in Ireland but ONLY if it's not your first one i.e - you can drive alone if it's your second Provisional ect. I told him he was wrong?

What exactly is the deal here? Seems very confusing...

Absolutely not. It's against the law. You must be accompanied at all times by a Full Licensed driver who has held their license for at least two years.

Also there's no such thing as a Provisional Licence anymore. It's a Learners Permit. You're permitted to learn how drive with an experienced driver, not to go out on your own.

And before anyone tries to rubbish me remember I sell car insurance for a living so I know I thing or two about the law in relation to driving etc.

AudreyHepburn

MadDog76 wrote: »

That's not true, Insurance is still valid.

No it's not. You're breaking the law so the policy is likely to be void/cancelled.

AudreyHepburn

JustWantNetPlz wrote: »

That's if they tell them :pac:

That's non disclosure and you will end up a world of trouble.

When you take out a policy you will be asked to send in a copy of your drivers licence and the insurer will see the points on it.

AidanadiA

Pure tashte wrote: »

I thought I had heard that insurance was still valid, despite it being against the law, if L/N plates aren't displayed? Or maybe it's just N plates?

I was in with Insurance Ireland getting a quote and they told me their policy is null and void if L plates or N plates aren't displayed.

branie2

You can't

FishOnABike

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

That's non disclosure and you will end up a world of trouble.

When you take out a policy you will be asked to send in a copy of your drivers licence and the insurer will see the points on it.

Do you mean they will cross reference your driver number (from your licence) with the penalty points database as points are not physically recorded on the licence itself?

Afaik you can get points even if you do not hold a licence - they can be recorded against a 'virtual licence' and then applied whenever you eventually do get a licence.

neonsofa

bluewolf wrote: »

I never drove alone on a provisional. I think it's very irresponsible to do so. If you're that great a driver, go and pass your test

Same. The amount of people, including driving instructors, who told me "ah you'll be grand, everybody does it", even getting annoyed/frustrated cause I wouldn't drive alone to the test centre to meet them for my pre tests/lessons. It was extremely frustrating for me because I was obeying the law and expecting them to do their job properly and paying them for it- and they were acting like I was such an inconvenience.

Found a decent instructor who at least tolerated me obeying the law- had a couple of instances where I had to state "no, it's illegal for me to drive alone" before he'd accept it, passed first time with only two grade 1 marks.

It would be extremely easy to just obey the law otherwise. It shouldn't be the driving instructors that make it difficult for learners to do so.

AudreyHepburn

FishOnABike wrote: »

Do you mean they will cross reference your driver number (from your licence) with the penalty points database as points are not physically recorded on the licence itself?

Afaik you can get points even if you do not hold a licence - they can be recorded against a 'virtual licence' and then applied whenever you eventually do get a licence.

No I mean that any points/restrictions/endorsements you receive will be noted on the licence so anyone looking at it, which we do in detail, will spot them.

At the end of the day insurance works on the principal of Utmost Good Faith and it has to work both ways. You purchase a policy from me in good faith that I've done my job and given you what you need but equally I have sold it to you in good faith that you haven't withheld anything from me.

FishOnABike

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No I mean that any points/restrictions/endorsements you receive will be noted on the licence so anyone looking at it, which we do in detail, will spot them.

I'd have to question that. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html

Quote - "While penalty points are endorsed on your driving licence, the points do not physically appear on the licence. Instead, your penalty points are recorded on your driving licence record. Driving licence records are held on the National Vehicle and Driver File operated by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport."

In the case of a fixed charge penalty points the points are applied to the driving licence record once the fixed charge penalty is paid. The practice I have seen in the district court is, on conviction of a penalty point offence, to photocopy the driving licence so as to notify the NVDF to apply the points to the driving licence record.

The points only exist on file / as a record in a database.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Just a point of clarification. A policy is never automatically 'void' for breaching policy conditions. It is voidable at the discretion of the insurer. In other words, the insurer would need to act on their rights. In theory, they could agree to honour the contract in full, though unlikely.

MadDog76

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No it's not. You're breaking the law so the policy is likely to be void/cancelled.

I've worked in Insurance ............. if driving unaccompanied, the Learner Driver is guilty of a criminal offence, but they are still Insured.

It's exactly the same if you don't obey the rules of the road and drink & drive or break a red light ........ you're guilty of an offence but are still covered. It's the same case with a Learner driving unaccompanied. It has nothing really to do with Insurance.

However, some Insurance Companies may include a clause stating that their Insurance would be invalidated if they were unaccompanied. But, generally speaking, those conditions do not appear in Standard Policies.

Basically, if a Learner Driver is at fault in a crash while driving unaccompanied, claims will continue to be handled by his/her Insurer as normal.

MadDog76

AidanadiA wrote: »

I was in with Insurance Ireland getting a quote and they told me their policy is null and void if L plates or N plates aren't displayed.

So just go with an Insurer who doesn't have that clause in their Policies ..........

MadDog76

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No I mean that any points/restrictions/endorsements you receive will be noted on the licence so anyone looking at it, which we do in detail, will spot them.

At the end of the day insurance works on the principal of Utmost Good Faith and it has to work both ways. You purchase a policy from me in good faith that I've done my job and given you what you need but equally I have sold it to you in good faith that you haven't withheld anything from me.

What? Penalty Points don't physically appear on a Driver's Licence ........

paleoperson

MadDog76 wrote: »

I've worked in Insurance ............. if driving unaccompanied, the Learner Driver is guilty of a criminal offence, but they are still Insured.

It's exactly the same if you don't obey the rules of the road and drink & drive or break a red light ........ you're guilty of an offence but are still covered. It's the same case with a Learner driving unaccompanied. It has nothing really to do with Insurance.

However, some Insurance Companies may include a clause stating that their Insurance would be invalidated if they were unaccompanied. But, generally speaking, those conditions do not appear in Standard Policies.

Basically, if a Learner Driver is at fault in a crash while driving unaccompanied, claims will continue to be handled by his/her Insurer as normal.

Thank you, I think the people saying it's "null/void" are just full of **** at this stage. It has been explained to them multiple times by multiple people and I don't know if they're somehow trying to be well-meaning or not but it's getting annoying. It is false and incorrect to state that it's "null/void". It's also irresponsible to claim that many people are out there driving with no effective insurance when it's not true.

Sue Pa Key Pa

paleoperson wrote: »

Thank you, I think the people saying it's "null/void" are just full of **** at this stage. It has been explained to them multiple times by multiple people and I don't know if they're somehow trying to be well-meaning or not but it's getting annoying. It is false and incorrect to state that it's "null/void". It's also irresponsible to claim that many people are out there driving with no effective insurance when it's not true.

Don't be so certain of that. The 3rd party will always be covered by your insurer if they suffer from your actions. However, they can seek recovery from you and decline any own damage if they have it in your wording. They may also cancel your policy which will have long term effects on you

There is a world of difference between being covered and insurers meeting the requirements of the RTA.

AidanadiA

MadDog76 wrote: »

So just go with an Insurer who doesn't have that clause in their Policies ..........

Nah, I just did what I was meant to and put up my plates and only drove with my sponsor. Less than a year left with my N plate, I might miss it when its gone.

I do get what you are saying, I was going on what an insurer had told me about their policy but it makes sense. It had concerned me a great deal thinking of learners and novices being uninsured, thank you for clearing it up.

Sue Pa Key Pa

AidanadiA wrote: »

Nah, I just did what I was meant to and put up my plates and only drove with my sponsor. Less than a year left with my N plate, I might miss it when its gone.

I do get what you are saying, I was going on what an insurer had told me about their policy but it makes sense. It had concerned me a great deal thinking of learners and novices being uninsured, thank you for clearing it up.

The cover is there for 3rd parties but there may be significant consequences for the driver not adhering to the terms of their Permit

Iseedeadpixels

MadDog76 wrote: »

What? Penalty Points don't physically appear on a Driver's Licence ........

Insurers can check, lets say you hit someone and you claim for your car etc, the investigator can request your records from whoever issues the points (someone please tell me does as its too early for my brain to work :P ) and can use that against you.

MadDog76

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

Insurers can check, lets say you hit someone and you claim for your car etc, the investigator can request your records from whoever issues the points (someone please tell me does as its too early for my brain to work :P ) and can use that against you.

But that's not what I was saying .......... I was responding to a Poster who claimed that he/she could look at the physical Driver's Licence to check for Penalty Points, Endorsements etc. which isn't the case as they don't physically appear on the Licence.

MadDog76

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

The cover is there for 3rd parties but there may be significant consequences for the driver not adhering to the terms of their Permit

Sorry but you're simply wrong .......... the only way an Insurance Policy can be invalidated (in the scenario we are discussing) is if there's a Clause in the Policy itself, which most Standard Insurance Policies do not have, explicitly stating that the Policy will become "null & void under x circumstances" .......... otherwise the Claim is handled as normal while the Gardai deal with any criminal offences relating to the incident/accident separately.

freshpopcorn

Just note to any 'L's out there don't drive on motorways because you'd find your self in bother if your accompanied or not.

MadDog76

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Just note to any 'L's out there don't drive on motorways because you'd find your self in bother if your accompanied or not.

The reason the Gardai don't randomly pull drivers with L/N Plates driving unaccompanied (Motorway or otherwise) is for the simple reason that a vehicle displaying an L/N Plate could be, and in a lot of cases is, a shared vehicle, ie. Mother/Father with Daughter/Son or Husband/Wife etc. with one driver holding a Full Licence whilst the other driver has a Learner Permit .......... the Gardai simply don't have the time or motivation to constantly stop vehicles with L/N Plates.

freshpopcorn

MadDog76 wrote: »

The reason the Gardai don't randomly pull drivers with L/N Plates driving unaccompanied (Motorway or otherwise) is for the simple reason that a vehicle displaying an L/N Plate could be, and in a lot of cases is, a shared vehicle, ie. Mother/Father with Daughter/Son or Husband/Wife etc. with one driver holding a Full Licence whilst the other driver has a Learner Permit .......... the Gardai simply don't have the time or motivation to constantly stop vehicles with L/N Plates.

I know that and in the past you were fine but in the last few years they Gardai are having multi agency checkpoints on motorways and you could get caught out.

The Backwards Man

Absolutely illegal and I never ever did it.

Just as I never ever drove a Hino with a fridge body sitting on a fish box with an old man cap on when I was thirteen.

Fred Swanson

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Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Sue Pa Key Pa

MadDog76 wrote: »

Sorry but you're simply wrong .......... the only way an Insurance Policy can be invalidated (in the scenario we are discussing) is if there's a Clause in the Policy itself, which most Standard Insurance Policies do not have, explicitly stating that the Policy will become "null & void under x circumstances" .......... otherwise the Claim is handled as normal while the Gardai deal with any criminal offences relating to the incident/accident separately.

I never said the policy was invalidated, Also, breaking a clause will not automatically allow a policy become "null and void", as you state. It just allows the insurer activate the cancellation clause under the policy and the process is strictly laid out

Iseedeadpixels

MadDog76 wrote: »

But that's not what I was saying .......... I was responding to a Poster who claimed that he/she could look at the physical Driver's Licence to check for Penalty Points, Endorsements etc. which isn't the case as they don't physically appear on the Licence.

Oh yes sorry my bad.

Lia_lia

I must admit I did it while I was waiting on a date for my driving test. For about 3 months. Only really to and from work (about 3KM). And the odd time from Cork to Kerry and back. Passed the test first time with only 2 grade 2s. Often passed Gardai with my L plates and they never said anything.

I do think it built my confidence and everyone said to do it. My instructor hinted at it but never really encouraged it.. Still think the law should be enforced though. I wouldn't encourage other people to break the law...

Also think it's absolutely ridiculous that Learners can't go on motorways (accompanied!). How can anyone learn to drive on one otherwise. Many towns in Ireland do not have dual carriageways to practise merging etc on. I insisted on getting an instructor to take me out on a 120KM/hr dual carriageway in Cork once I had all my 12 lessons finished (before I passed my test) ...just because I wanted to learn how to drive on a dual carriageway/motorway properly.

solerina

FizzleSticks wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Nothing happens,
my 17 year old neighbour was involved in a reasonably serious crash while driving alone on a learners permit gardai were called etc. Nothing happened to her, she took her test and got her full licence 6 ish months after the accident

freshpopcorn

solerina wrote: »

Nothing happens,
my 17 year old neighbour was involved in a reasonably serious crash while driving alone on a learners permit gardai were called etc. Nothing happened to her, she took her test and got her full licence 6 ish months after the accident

Was anybody injured?
How do you know for sure she wasn't given points/etc?

Canyon86

AidanadiA wrote: »

If you drive on a provisional licence without a sponsor/full licence holder your insurance policy is null and void, also if you don't have your L/N plates on display.

I passed my driving test last year, during the time I had my provisional licence I never drove with out my sponsor and the car always had L plates on.

I was in a crash as a learner , other driver 100% in the wrong, had no issues at all with insurance , in fact my policy was reduced by 50 euro , AXA BTW

I guess each insurer has its own policy's

Sue Pa Key Pa

Canyon86 wrote: »

I was in a crash as a learner , other driver 100% in the wrong, had no issues at all with insurance , in fact my policy was reduced by 50 euro , AXA BTW

I guess each insurer has its own policy's

If the other driver was at fault, you wouldn't be asking your insurer to provide you with indemnity, so they wouldn't have had an issue with you.

yerwanthere123

Currently driving on a learner permit and have been driving in my own car for about 18 months. I've been stopped five times in this 18 months, twice to check my insurance/tax (which has always been up to date), and three times to check my license. I've never been given any points or fines, although was one made report to the local Garda station.

MadDog76

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

If the other driver was at fault, you wouldn't be asking your insurer to provide you with indemnity, so they wouldn't have had an issue with you.

The outcome would have been no different, Insurance-wise, even if the L-Driver had been at fault except for the fact that it would have been the L-Drivers Insurance handling the claim ......... the Gardai may (probably not) have followed up on the criminal offence of the L-Driver driving unaccompanied.

The J Stands for Jay

MadDog76 wrote: »

The reason the Gardai don't randomly pull drivers with L/N Plates driving unaccompanied (Motorway or otherwise) is for the simple reason that a vehicle displaying an L/N Plate could be, and in a lot of cases is, a shared vehicle, ie. Mother/Father with Daughter/Son or Husband/Wife etc. with one driver holding a Full Licence whilst the other driver has a Learner Permit .......... the Gardai simply don't have the time or motivation to constantly stop vehicles with L/N Plates.

It's amazing that those removable L and N plates are beyond so many people's abilities. A guard once told me it's illegal to display L plates of you're not a learner, but it's one of those rules they never bother with.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That will go a long way to stop parents fronting a policy for their kids

Iseedeadpixels

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Roll on everyone saying "I took they keys without telling them" wonder will they still prosecute the car owner?

Dravokivich

McGaggs wrote: »

It's amazing that those removable L and N plates are beyond so many people's abilities. A guard once told me it's illegal to display L plates of you're not a learner, but it's one of those rules they never bother with.

Well, the gaurd is wrong. I'd looked it up before and there's only requirements listed about who needs to display it, that doesn't mean everyone else needs to remove it.

murpho999

Lia_lia wrote: »

I must admit I did it while I was waiting on a date for my driving test. For about 3 months. Only really to and from work (about 3KM). And the odd time from Cork to Kerry and back. Passed the test first time with only 2 grade 2s. Often passed Gardai with my L plates and they never said anything.

I do think it built my confidence and everyone said to do it. My instructor hinted at it but never really encouraged it.. Still think the law should be enforced though. I wouldn't encourage other people to break the law...

Also think it's absolutely ridiculous that Learners can't go on motorways (accompanied!). How can anyone learn to drive on one otherwise. Many towns in Ireland do not have dual carriageways to practise merging etc on. I insisted on getting an instructor to take me out on a 120KM/hr dual carriageway in Cork once I had all my 12 lessons finished (before I passed my test) ...just because I wanted to learn how to drive on a dual carriageway/motorway properly.

Not having a go at you but it is wrong what you did.

Until you past the test, you're not a qualified driver and therefore should not be on the road.

As for motorways, they should be part of the syllabus and the test and they are not for some strange reason and the result is that you have a nation where the vast majority of people here do not know how to join or exit a motorway properly nor maintain correct lane discipline.

If you drive in the middle lane of the M50, which you see most people doing, even when empty at night then you don't know how to drive on a motorway.

That said, I don't agree that accompanied learners should be allowed. What can a companion do?

It should only be with instructors and ideally in a dual controlled car.

Galwayguy35

bluewolf wrote: »

I never drove alone on a provisional. I think it's very irresponsible to do so. If you're that great a driver, go and pass your test

I don't know when you passed your test but is you did it around the same time as me (1996) then you would have been an army of 1 with that opinion.

Everyone drove around on their provisional on their own until they passed the test.

In fact I'd suggest that some of the folks in their late 30s and 40s who frown on this behaviour had no issues doing it themselves back in the day.

kylith

MadDog76 wrote: »

The reason the Gardai don't randomly pull drivers with L/N Plates driving unaccompanied (Motorway or otherwise) is for the simple reason that a vehicle displaying an L/N Plate could be, and in a lot of cases is, a shared vehicle, ie. Mother/Father with Daughter/Son or Husband/Wife etc. with one driver holding a Full Licence whilst the other driver has a Learner Permit .......... the Gardai simply don't have the time or motivation to constantly stop vehicles with L/N Plates.

I was told once that if you're an adult learner you don't really have to worry about being pulled for driving alone cos they'll assume it's your kid's L plate. Which came in handy for me if I needed to do a big shop.

Iseedeadpixels

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't know when you passed your test but is you did it around the same time as me (1996) then you would have been an army of 1 with that opinion.

Everyone drove around on their provisional on their own until they passed the test.

In fact I'd suggest that some of the folks in their late 30s and 40s who frown on this behaviour had no issues doing it themselves back in the day.

I like to call it full license snobbery.