Investors .... Would you think it would be worth liquidating all of your Irish invest

jamesthepeach

Just curious. Looking for other property investors or foreign property owners opinions on this.
I've just signed on the dotted line for a nice little foreign property in Portugal to live in during 6 or 9 months of the year.
I've been renting an apartment in the same complex for the past two weeks via Airbnb to make sure I was happy and have stayed in the same town summer and easter a few times.
But during my research I have found out that you can do Airbnb very easily in May to September and get very nice prices for this property. So it got me thinking, should I liquidate my last remaining rental in Ireland and maybe even my ppr and buy some more. Property investment in Ireland is just heading further down the toilet with all the controls, taxes, interference from govt and general treatment of small landlords by the govt.

I'm meeting my Airbnb host tomorrow to have a chat with him about Airbnb here. Basically the economy lives off tourism and Airbnb, so there should be no issues with it getting the bad press it does in Ireland.

Pluses seem to be that

its very easy to get good management here to look after it.

The Irish government are anti investor. Not.so here.

The chances of a very expensive bad tenant are very high in Ireland. Not so here.

You could go Airbnb in Ireland but the noises from the govt about it suggest that that too will end in another rogering for the landlord eventually. No such issues here.

The property prices are relatively low here.
Yield is very high, even though the main money is made May to September. About 75% of the yearly total would be taken in those months. .

Just curious, looking for others views on moving all property investment from Ireland to tourist hotspots. (I'm already up to the eyeballs in Equities, so am diversified already so want to keep a few quid in property) I'm sure I'll have stronger views of my own in a year or so and after talking to a financial advisor and sitting at home pandering for a while. Not to mention when I ask the other half for her opinion.

VonBeanie

One key element of an investment strategy is diversity. Having some investment in Portugal and some in Ireland is good from a diversity point of view. While everything is going well for your Portugal AirBnB venture at the moment, there is no guarantee that it will always stay like this. Maybe there will be a change in Government policy in Portugal, or a terrorist scare, or some other shock to that investment at some point.

Watch out in relation to estate planning as well. Do you need a will in Portugal as well as Ireland, tax planning, that type of thing.

jamesthepeach

VonBeanie wrote: »

One key element of an investment strategy is diversity. Having some investment in Portugal and some in Ireland is good from a diversity point of view. While everything is going well for your Portugal AirBnB venture at the moment, there is no guarantee that it will always stay like this. Maybe there will be a change in Government policy in Portugal, or a terrorist scare, or some other shock to that investment at some point.

Watch out in relation to estate planning as well. Do you need a will in Portugal as well as Ireland, tax planning, that type of thing.

Oh God yes. It would have to be in several different countries. Just not in Ireland anymore for obvious reasons.
I still want to have property investments but I want to have the control of we them and not the govt or rogue tenants.

VonBeanie

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Oh God yes. It would have to be in several different countries. Just not in Ireland anymore for obvious reasons.
I still want to have property investments but I want to have the control of we them and not the govt or rogue tenants.

Then yes, I would be a fan of the idea. Personally, I'm considering the UK for early 2018. Sterling is good value and may be even better in coming months. I certainly am going near extending exposure to Irish residential property. Its only short term capital gain that is keeping me in the game at any level at the moment (other than through REIT investment).

jamesthepeach

VonBeanie wrote: »

Then yes, I would be a fan of the idea. Personally, I'm considering the UK for early 2018. Sterling is good value and may be even better in coming months. I certainly am going near extending exposure to Irish residential property. Its only short term capital gain that is keeping me in the game at any level at the moment (other than through REIT investment).

I was thinking UK too, but there seem to be better yields to be had in the resorts.
For example the a parent I just signed for was asking 150k. Ended up getting it for 110k as I found out where they really go for (not the paddy or Brit price for sure).
Then it's full occupancy at €75 a night for June July and August and about €55 for May and September. Probably €30 a night and 50% occupancy for the rest of the year.
Well that's what my research shows anyway. Over the next year I'll fine tune it and get better figure but these err on the side of caution.
And I'll be staying there myself a lot of the time as this is a retreat rather than a money maker. The money makers are next and I think I could do better with a place I don't expect the wife to want to live in for extended periods

But the figures are great considering the hugely decreased risk compared to Ireland.

rossmores

Yeah looking at London on the commuter belt early next year especially if sterling is at parity wont invest in Dublin until risk and high taxation is addressed

dr.fuzzenstein

VonBeanie wrote: »

Then yes, I would be a fan of the idea. Personally, I'm considering the UK for early 2018. Sterling is good value and may be even better in coming months. I certainly am going near extending exposure to Irish residential property. Its only short term capital gain that is keeping me in the game at any level at the moment (other than through REIT investment).

London market looks to be deflating, beware of the soft landing!
I'd keep an eye on that and wait what's happening.

lcwill

I was looking at Portugal recently (and am keeping an eye on London too). Main worry about Portugal is that it has the lowest fertility rate in Europe, population going to start declining, Governments is trying to look friendly to foreign investors and pensioners but youth employment still a problem, I just wonder what is the long term future in these countries? Can't base an economy on tourism alone. Lisbon, Porto, some of the main tourist centres might be ok but, like in much of Southern Europe, the countryside is dying. When will the towns and cities get dragged too.....Dublin is a better long term bet.

By the way if you move your tax residence to Portugal and keep your properties in Dublin you might find the tax situation works out much better.

jamesthepeach

lcwill wrote: »

I was looking at Portugal recently (and am keeping an eye on London too). Main worry about Portugal is that it has the lowest fertility rate in Europe, population going to start declining, Governments is trying to look friendly to foreign investors and pensioners but youth employment still a problem, I just wonder what is the long term future in these countries? Can't base an economy on tourism alone. Lisbon, Porto, some of the main tourist centres might be ok but, like in much of Southern Europe, the countryside is dying. When will the towns and cities get dragged too.....Dublin is a better long term bet.

By the way if you move your tax residence to Portugal and keep your properties in Dublin you might find the tax situation works out much better.

Problem with Dublin is that there are so many ways that you can be fcuked over by the tenant and the govt, and more to come. It's probably the most risky environment in Europe for property investment.

lcwill

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Problem with Dublin is that there are so many ways that you can be fcuked over by the tenant and the govt, and more to come. It's probably the most risky environment in Europe for property investment.

It seems like that sometimes, but I really don't think its the case. Plenty of countries in Europe have stronger pro-tenant laws, lower yields, and weaker economies than Ireland's

jamesthepeach

lcwill wrote: »

It seems like that sometimes, but I really don't think its the case. Plenty of countries in Europe have stronger pro-tenant laws, lower yields, and weaker economies than Ireland's

Yes, but if there are any worse than Dublin, they would be even more uninvestable. That can't be a word

Diarmuid

Would an investment vehicle like a REIT or ETF not be much less hassle and lower risk if you want some diverse exposure?

jamesthepeach

Diarmuid wrote: »

Would an investment vehicle like a REIT or ETF not be much less hassle and lower risk if you want some diverse exposure?

There isn't enough money in a reit tbh.
I'm already exposed to ETFs, equities etc and want to keep my current percentage in property, just not in Irish property as it's just too risky.

I have a feeling as brexit approaches there will be more and more foreign property bargains to be had. I'm looking at one today that is 110k asking. Agent says a Brit is selling it and they will take 90k. I'd say the you offer less and see.
The Airbnb on that one and others in the same complex is €70 a night in the summer and about half that any other time. They seem to have close enough to full occupancy for about 6 months and it Peters out after that. Ive been watching that complex for about 9 months the now so know it well.
i won't be investing in it, just following it out of curiosity as I'm just invested in a nearby complex. I think next year I may pull the trigger again but probably in Spain to diversify.

mrslancaster

do other countries have a deposit holding system like the one being proposed for Ireland & how do they work in practice?

I read somewhere a new deposit system is planned for this year..part of the last rta amendments

The_Conductor

Vis-a-vis airbnb in Portugal- Airbnb Property management- is a complete con- their charges are off the charts- and they deliberately don't compete with one another- so even if you shop around, you're still screwed. Tax situation- is pretty onerous too. Look into all aspects of it- in a Portuguese context- it is the case that if it looks too good to be true, it probably is........

The_Conductor

mrslancaster wrote: »

do other countries have a deposit holding system like the one being proposed for Ireland & how do they work in practice?

I read somewhere a new deposit system is planned for this year..part of the last rta amendments

Scotland has a similar system- which has been in operation for several years, but they're proposing to call a halt to it. It has over a third of all deposits that have been lodged with it- in a suspense account- and hasn't returned them to either the landlord or the tenant at the end of the tenancy (no idea how/why this is). In any event- the exchequer is proposing to forfeit £46m of deposits- as they haven't been returned within a prescribed timescale by the agency........

In a Scottish context- the tardiness in returning deposits- was removed from landlords- to an agency- who are even worse at returning deposits than the landlords ever were..........

jamesthepeach

The_Conductor wrote: »

Vis-a-vis airbnb in Portugal- Airbnb Property management- is a complete con- their charges are off the charts- and they deliberately don't compete with one another- so even if you shop around, you're still screwed. Tax situation- is pretty onerous too. Look into all aspects of it- in a Portuguese context- it is the case that if it looks too good to be true, it probably is........

Airbnb Management is €68 per month plus €25 per changeover to include cleaning. That would all be covered by the cleaning fee. Everyone's tax situation is different. I had this all checked out before as I have a couple of mates with property in Portugal that they Airbnb when not using them.

handlemaster

I did think about the UK also. Sterling is predicted to be at parity year end. Where in the UK would be good outside of london

jamesthepeach

handlemaster wrote: »

I did think about the UK also. Sterling is predicted to be at parity year end. Where in the UK would be good outside of london

Brexit might bring other issues though compared to investing in Europe.
I would wait to see how it all shakes out before Investing in the UK

handlemaster

Lisbon is ment to have taken off property wise

handlemaster

But when.you look at a lot of european cities the returns would be better in cavan

jamesthepeach

handlemaster wrote: »

But when.you look at a lot of european cities the returns would be better in cavan

Not if the tenants decide not to pay the rent for.a few years.

I wouldn't even consider 90% of European cities. Just the ones where the yields are adequate, it's easy to deal with rogue tenants and which are friendly to letting. Tourist resorts would be where I'm leaning at the moment, but if better options come to my attention I would consider them too if i still had money to invest at the time.
I reckon I've enough for 4 over the next 4 years, including one which I would use mostly myself, so 3 really. Basically just looking for some property income to transfer the Irish investment to.

GGTrek

jamesthepeach wrote: »

handlemaster wrote: »

But when.you look at a lot of european cities the returns would be better in cavan

Not if the tenants decide not to pay the rent for.a few years.

I wouldn't even consider 90% of European cities. Just the ones where the yields are adequate, it's easy to deal with rogue tenants and which are friendly to letting. Tourist resorts would be where I'm leaning at the moment, but if better options come to my attention I would consider them too if i still had money to invest at the time.
I reckon I've enough for 4 over the next 4 years, including one which I would use mostly myself, so 3 really. Basically just looking for some property income to transfer the Irish investment to.

Check how long it takes to get a non paying tenant out in Portugal and you will quickly change idea about investing in Lisbon. I know the place well and I speak the language. Latin countries civil courts are very slow. Spain is as bad, Italy is another joke. They are just nice if you buy your own home and enjoy the life and the climate and do a little of airbnb on the side but you will get local councils against you. In Spain the local communists (full of them) hate tourists. They spit on the hands that feed them, it is the usual communist mentality: I want to work very little, get money from govvie, tourists are fine as long as they don't stay in places where I want to stay but I cannot afford!

jamesthepeach

GGTrek wrote: »

Check how long it takes to get a non paying tenant out in Portugal and you will quickly change idea about investing in Lisbon. I know the place well and I speak the language. Latin countries civil courts are very slow. Spain is as bad, Italy is another joke. They are just nice if you buy your own home and enjoy the life and the climate and do a little of airbnb on the side but you will get local councils against you. In Spain the local communists (full of them) hate tourists. They spit on the hands that feed them, it is the usual communist mentality: I want to work very little, get money from govvie, tourists are fine as long as they don't stay in places where I want to stay but I cannot afford!

I think I'll be sticking to Airbnb so it shouldn't be an issue

A mate I'm Spain's had rented his apartment to a guy via an agency and the stopped paying rent.
Agency were useless so he got on to another agency after 6 weeks who hired a local company to remove them. They cut off the water, electricity and gas. Tenant didn't budget for a few days. As soon as they saw them go out they changed the locks. Problem solved.
How did he find the other agency?
He rang the local police station to ask what could be done and they told them to contact a decent agency and gave them that ones number.