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4 Ball Competition - 2's Club

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  • 20-08-2017 8:01pm
    #1
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭


    How does a two club work in a four ball betterball competition?

    If player A plays a tee shot to 6 inches and player B plays a tee shot to 20 feet and subsequently holes the putt before Player A knocks in his putt?

    Are both players entitled to share of pot or is Player A excluded because he wasn't first in?

    Or is the twos club a separate competition to the 4 ball competition?


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    #2
    Senna
    Registered Users Posts: 8,800 ✭✭✭Senna


    Would be surprised if a club ran a 2's comp along with anything other than a singles comp, never seen it happen.


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    #3
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭morrga


    Senna wrote: »
    Would be surprised if a club ran a 2's comp along with anything other than a singles comp, never seen it happen.

    Our club ran a twos competition with a 4 ball competition today. They never normally run a 4 ball hence confusion.


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    #4
    tritriagain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭tritriagain


    morrga wrote: »
    Our club ran a twos competition with a 4 ball competition today. They never normally run a 4 ball hence confusion.

    Our club always run 2 club in 4 ball comps. Just mark the 2 2s on the card. Not that it happens that often


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    #5
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭morrga


    tritriagain wrote: »
    Our club always run 2 club in 4 ball comps. Just mark the 2 2s on the card. Not that it happens that often

    It happened today and we were told tough first person on the card claims the pot and tough luck on the other person. Glad to hear common sense is out there.


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    #6
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,609 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Happened to me last week. Our club had 2s in the weekly four ball. The lads we were playing with both a got a 2 on the 6th. They insisted I put both 2s on the card and circle them as they were clearly thinking they both will get money from it. I was thinking 'I should hope not', I mean you would think only a 2 that actually counts in the competition can get money from the 2s. But I did as requested as there was no point of an argument, but obviously I only gave them the 3 points.

    I must check in on that. While I wouldn't agree with it its not that I begrudge the 2nd guy if he did get it. But I am curious. It would never occur to me yo put both 2s on the card in that instance. First in is the lucky guy I would have thought.


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    #7
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭morrga


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Happened to me last week. Our club had 2s in the weekly four ball. The lads we were playing with both a got a 2 on the 6th. They insisted I put both 2s on the card and circle them as they were clearly thinking they both will get money from it. I was thinking 'I should hope not', I mean you would think only a 2 that actually counts in the competition can get money from the 2s. But I did as requested as there was no point of an argument, but obviously I only gave them the 3 points.

    Interesting alright. I think the confusion may lie in that the 2's competition is a separate competition to the 4 ball competition. I would have thought the theory would be that if you pay your 2 euro you should have an entitlement to have a go at making a two on all par 4's. Otherwise it could lead to arguments if one fella hits his tee shot to 4 feet and his partner to 5 feet. Add in a roll over from the week before, its a windy day and suddenly there is the bones of €200 riding on the putt. I'm sure everyone would be peeved not to have a go of at least gaining a fair share and penalised again because you hit your shot closer than your partner?

    Did the club honour the two's for both players?


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    #8
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,609 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    morrga wrote: »
    Interesting alright. I think the confusion may lie in that the 2's competition is a separate competition to the 4 ball competition. I would have thought the theory would be that if you pay your 2 euro you should have an entitlement to have a go at making a two on all par 4's. Otherwise it could lead to arguments if one fella hits his tee shot to 4 feet and his partner to 5 feet. Add in a roll over from the week before, its a windy day and suddenly there is the bones of €200 riding on the putt. I'm sure everyone would be peeved not to have a go of at least gaining a fair share and penalised again because you hit your shot closer than your partner?

    Did the club honour the two's for both players?

    I must find out. Really curious myself. But I would strongly disagree if it was.

    On another note. The money would be more like €10 instead of €200. You only get the pot for a hole in 1. Windy day, rollover, doesn't matter. There is always a few 2s. I think the most I ever got was €35.


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    #9
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭morrga


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    I must find out. Really curious myself. But I would strongly disagree if it was.

    On another note. The money would be more like €10 instead of €200. You only get the pot for a hole in 1. Windy day, rollover, doesn't matter. There is always a few 2s. I think the most I ever got was €35.

    I am broadening the argument out on a general basis. There are clubs particularly links courses where a strong wind can get up and there might be only one two and almost €200 in the pot. I know of other clubs where rollovers are quite common thus again adding a nice pot.

    Is it fair a fella putts from 5 feet to claim the pot thus eliminating the guy who has a 4 feet putt? What if that scenario occurred on all 4 par 3's? The guy who keeps getting it closer is told he is not allowed play in the two's comp because his partner keeps holing longer putts? But he has paid his entry fee yet is told under certain circumstances you are not allowed participate in today's 2 club competition? Madness.


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    #10
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Its an interesting one alright. Its been years since we've run twos in our club but from memory, you'd put both on the card. Seems to me to be the obvious thing to do as the twos comp is a separate thing to the competition of the day.


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    #11
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,609 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    To me it is absolutely clear cut and I don't see the 'fairness' argument. It's just good luck and bad luck. First in goes on the card end of.

    2s club is not a separate competition. It is embedded into the main competition. A sub competition if you like. It seems only logical to me that only scores that are a score in the main competition can count.

    There'll be fellas saying 'but I got a 2 with my 2nd ball' next.


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    #12
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    To me it is absolutely clear cut and I don't see the 'fairness' argument. It's just good luck and bad luck. First in goes on the card end of.

    2s club is not a separate competition. It is embedded into the main competition. A sub competition if you like. It seems only logical to me that only scores that are a score in the main competition can count.

    There'll be fellas saying 'but I got a 2 with my 2nd ball' next.

    I'd disagree with that, but hey, its all opinions !

    If you're playing strokes and NR on the 7th hole, and you have a 2 on the 15th, would that count ?


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    #13
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,355 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I suppose it depends on how much money was paid in by each person

    Like if they both entered the twos competition separately then damn right they both should be able to claim their share of the pot.


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    #14
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,609 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    ^ But one of 2s doesn't actually count. It's not a score in the main competition. How could it possibly qualify?

    And in the stroke play example. Yes tough luck if you want to get 2s money you better return a valid card.


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    #15
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭morrga


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    ^ But one of 2s doesn't actually count. It's not a score in the main competition. How could it possibly qualify?

    The club should hand out a two's card to each competitor if it was doing it right. It wasn't a score in the main competition but it was a score in the two's competition. They are separate competitions. Your ability to win the two's pot is not influenced by your performance in the 4 ball competition so why are we directly linking both competitions together when they are mutually exclusive events?

    So by your reckoning if the cost was €4 per pair then in reality it should be €2 per pair if only two can count per pair. If we go that route now we are halving the pot and taking half the fun away. is that what the playing field want?


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    #16
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    ^ But one of 2s doesn't actually count. It's not a score in the main competition. How could it possibly qualify?

    And in the stroke play example. Yes tough luck if you want to get 2s money you better return a valid card.

    A card with a NR on it is a valid card if its returned.


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    #17
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Rikand wrote: »
    I suppose it depends on how much money was paid in by each person

    Like if they both entered the twos competition separately then damn right they both should be able to claim their share of the pot.

    This point is key. If they both paid in separately to the 2s then they should both count IMHO.
    If its just one entry in the 2s per pair, then no.


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    #18
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,973 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Happened to me actually recently enough in Greystones. I'm not sure if it was fourball though, I think it might of actually been a foursomes.

    We both got a share of the twos.

    We do operate a twos card and both our names went on the same card.

    I'm not sure about fourball but it is an interesting one, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to both claim though as separate balls, separate competition, both paid for it so it's only fair.


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    #19
    Derek Zoolander
    Registered Users Posts: 434 ✭✭Derek Zoolander


    morrga wrote: »
    How does a two club work in a four ball betterball competition?

    If player A plays a tee shot to 6 inches and player B plays a tee shot to 20 feet and subsequently holes the putt before Player A knocks in his putt?

    Are both players entitled to share of pot or is Player A excluded because he wasn't first in?

    Or is the twos club a separate competition to the 4 ball competition?

    complete separate comp in our place - and we expect that both 2's should get paid.


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    #20
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,609 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    But the point is they are not separate competitions. One is embedded into the other. A 2 in the main competition can make a claim for a share of the 2s pot. If it was separate I could pay my 2 euro only, go out in a cart, just play the par 3s, back in 30 minutes, where's my 2s money.

    I don't claim to be Mr Spock but logically I'd find it hard to arrive at any other conclusion.

    No?


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    #21
    Ronney
    Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭Ronney


    CalamariFritti,

    If you take it as all part of the one comp how would you consider Longest Drive or nearest the pin?

    They have to be separate comps if someone say NR'ed or was DQ'ed after putting there name down for longest drive etc how could you fairly assess who came second as anyone after him could potentially be that person.


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    #22
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,973 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    But the point is they are not separate competitions. One is embedded into the other. A 2 in the main competition can make a claim for a share of the 2s pot. If it was separate I could pay my 2 euro only, go out in a cart, just play the par 3s, back in 30 minutes, where's my 2s money.

    I don't claim to be Mr Spock but logically I'd find it hard to arrive at any other conclusion.

    No?

    I don't think you have any logic in your head with a statement like that


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    #23
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    But the point is they are not separate competitions. One is embedded into the other. A 2 in the main competition can make a claim for a share of the 2s pot. If it was separate I could pay my 2 euro only, go out in a cart, just play the par 3s, back in 30 minutes, where's my 2s money.

    I don't claim to be Mr Spock but logically I'd find it hard to arrive at any other conclusion.

    No?

    Well, whichever way the terminology works, I'd have considered the 2s to be a separate event/thing/competition, albeit one that you need to have entered the competition of the day in order to be eligible to enter.

    As long as both players enter the 2s separately, to me it just doesn't make any sense to exclude a player who has a 2 just because his partner had one also.

    What about a player who entered the 2s and his partner didn't ? Lets say the player who didn't enter the 2s has one on a hole where he has a shot, and his partner, who did enter the 2s, also has one but has no shot on the hole, so his score isn't used for the better-ball competition of the day ?


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    #24
    Ronney
    Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭Ronney


    Russman wrote: »
    Well, whichever way the terminology works, I'd have considered the 2s to be a separate event/thing/competition, albeit one that you need to have entered the competition of the day in order to be eligible to enter.

    As long as both players enter the 2s separately, to me it just doesn't make any sense to exclude a player who has a 2 just because his partner had one also.

    What about a player who entered the 2s and his partner didn't ? Lets say the player who didn't enter the 2s has one on a hole where he has a shot, and his partner, who did enter the 2s, also has one but has no shot on the hole, so his score isn't used for the better-ball competition of the day ?

    Good Point Russman, If a partner with a shot makes a 3 then is the partner without a shot not able to go for a 2 as the 3 will go on the card being 1st in?


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    #25
    morrga
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭morrga


    Ronney wrote: »
    Good Point Russman, If a partner with a shot makes a 3 then is the partner without a shot not able to go for a 2 as the 3 will go on the card being 1st in?

    Another very good scenario to illustrate the point.


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    #26
    ligerdub
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    CalamariFritti wrote:
    2s club is not a separate competition. It is embedded into the main competition. A sub competition if you like. It seems only logical to me that only scores that are a score in the main competition can count.

    CalamariFritti wrote:
    There'll be fellas saying 'but I got a 2 with my 2nd ball' next.


    The guy that rolls his in first has it easier.....he knows there is less downside if he misses:

    1. There is another team member who has a chance of getting the 2 even if he doesn't and

    2. If he himself holes out then he gets the cash.

    It doesn't matter if it's €1 or €1,000 the guy who was closer in didn't get a chance to get in on the action even though they played a better shot in.


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    #27
    Ronney
    Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭Ronney


    ligerdub wrote: »
    The guy that rolls his in first has it easier.....he knows there is less downside if he misses:

    .


    Same could be said if the partner has made a 3 giving him a free putt and no worry bout making the one back


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    #28
    ligerdub
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    Ronney wrote: »
    Same could be said if the partner has made a 3 giving him a free putt and no worry bout making the one back

    That's fair enough, but the likelihood is if he's close enough to make it he's close enough that he'll probably 2 putt anyway.

    If any event he's at least had his chance....and missed....if the partner has a free putt.


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    #29
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,355 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    ^ But one of 2s doesn't actually count. It's not a score in the main competition. How could it possibly qualify?

    And in the stroke play example. Yes tough luck if you want to get 2s money you better return a valid card.

    The 2's competition is usually a separately run competition. Everyone pays separate money for it so they are entitled to their share of the pot if individually they score a 2. If you decide someone is ineligible because their playing partner was in the hole first then you should give them their 2 euro back as their partner holing out first is outside their control


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    #30
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,355 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    But the point is they are not separate competitions. One is embedded into the other. A 2 in the main competition can make a claim for a share of the 2s pot. If it was separate I could pay my 2 euro only, go out in a cart, just play the par 3s, back in 30 minutes, where's my 2s money.

    I don't claim to be Mr Spock but logically I'd find it hard to arrive at any other conclusion.

    No?

    You do realise that par 4's and par 5's can also be completed in 2 shots or less?


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    #31
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,609 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Seve OB wrote: »
    I don't think you have any logic in your head with a statement like that

    It's not that difficult Seve. Just ask yourself would you be eligible for the 2s on any given Sunday if you didn't actually play in the Sunday comp. you just happened to get a 2 that Sunday. Playing casual whatever. You do not obviously. So they're not completely separate competitions.

    So how do you qualify? By gettting a 2 in the Sunday competition.

    So if you scored a two that is not on the card for the Sunday competition where does that leave you? IMHO with no 2.

    You may disagree but how could you make a snide comment saying there is no logic in that?

    That's not me saying I'm right or anything. A case could be made for either. But there is logic to it.


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