The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

billy few mates

kceire wrote: »

There's no VRT on most uk inport EV's.

There is on hybrids....

billy few mates

kceire wrote: »

Nope as officially you are not getting the charger on a new purchase. It's a second hand car. Just factor it into your sims and buy or don't buy. Simples.

Incorrect, as already stated you can have the free charger installation even if you buy an ex demo PROVIDED the dealer hasn't already availed of the grant for that car. Simples.

ELM327

billy few mates wrote: »

There is on hybrids....

yes and those are not EV, they are ICE.
EV don't burn fossil fuels within their drivetrain.

billy few mates wrote: »

Incorrect, as already stated you can have the free charger installation even if you buy an ex demo PROVIDED the dealer hasn't already availed of the grant for that car. Simples.

Incorrect as there is a grant made for every new car sold.
So you are taking the grant awarded for that new car, as the previous owner didnt.
Simples.

billy few mates

KCross wrote: »

Presumably it's to protect SIMI dealers. They want you to buy and support local dealers.

grogi wrote: »

Dealers typically hardly make any money on sales. They make money on servicing and parts.

cros13 wrote: »

This. The SEAI scheme requires both the model and dealer to be registered for the grant scheme. That was expressly designed to protect the SIMI dealers.

In theory a foreign dealer could register but for a single sale it's not going to be worth their time.

The VRT is to protect the SIMI dealers, once you've paid the VRT you should not be disadvantaged in benefitting from a completely separate government led scheme to promote EVs, this is the point I made to the Revenue official and he agreed it was anomalous. He then suggested it might be possible to factor in the cost of a charger installation into a VRT appeal because the OMSP does not take this into account.
There's no point in being part of the EU with its free movement of goods when the government can introduce a scheme like VRT on imports to penalise you for availing of it.
Having said that, when I was thinking of buying an EV I found two suitable ex demo cars in the U.K. And NI which after all the costs would still have been €3K cheaper than the two I looked at here, the €3K would easily have paid for a charger installation, both of those cars were higher spec than the two I found on offer here.

billy few mates

ELM327 wrote: »

yes and those are not EV, they are ICE.
EV don't burn fossil fuels within their drivetrain.



Incorrect as there is a grant made for every new car sold.
So you are taking the grant awarded for that new car, as the previous owner didnt.
Simples.

Don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or completely missing the point but it still doesn't take away from the fact that the lady in the SEAI incorrectly answered my question when I asked if I would qualify for a free charger if I bought an ex demo. She told me out straight that I would not when there's clearly the possibility to avail of a free charger with the purchase of a second hand car PROVIDED the previous owner (the dealer) has not already availed of it. I don't know how to explain it any simpler for you....

ELM327

billy few mates wrote: »

Don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or completely missing the point but it still doesn't take away from the fact that the lady in the SEAI incorrectly answered my question when I asked if I would qualify for a free charger if I bought an ex demo. She told me out straight that I would not when there's clearly the possibility to avail of a free charger with the purchase of a second hand car PROVIDED the previous owner (the dealer) has not already availed of it. I don't know how to explain it any simpler for you....

Don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or completely missing the point but it still doesn't take away from the fact that each new car comes with a grant, and if it is not availed of it stays with the car. I don't know how to explain it any simpler for you....

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

Incorrect, as already stated you can have the free charger installation even if you buy an ex demo PROVIDED the dealer hasn't already availed of the grant for that car. Simples.

ELM327 wrote: »

Incorrect as there is a grant made for every new car sold.
So you are taking the grant awarded for that new car, as the previous owner didnt.
Simples.

Why is it "incorrect" when I say it but correct when you repeat it almost word for word...?

ELM327

billy few mates wrote: »

Why is it "incorrect" when I say it but correct when you repeat it almost word for word...?

It is incorrect when you say it but correct when I repeat it almost word for word...?Because... get those cogs ticking now.... there's a grant per car!

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

Surely the correct answer should then be "yes this car will qualify for a free charger UNLESS the car dealer hasn't already claimed for it"

kceire wrote: »

Nope as officially you are not getting the charger on a new purchase. It's a second hand car. Just factor it into your sims and buy or don't buy. Simples.

billy few mates wrote: »

Incorrect, as already stated you can have the free charger installation even if you buy an ex demo PROVIDED the dealer hasn't already availed of the grant for that car. Simples.

billy few mates wrote: »

Why is it "incorrect" when I say it but correct when you repeat it almost word for word...?

ELM327 wrote: »

It is incorrect when you say it but correct when I repeat it almost word for word...?Because... get those cogs ticking now.... there's a grant per car!

Kindly point out to me what it is I've said that's factually "incorrect" because every one of your responses agrees with mine, unless of course you're just arguing for the sake of arguing...?

Falcon L

C'mon guys... seriously?

Gumbo

billy few mates wrote: »

There is on hybrids....

We are not talking about Hybrids. You mentioned EV's. Different cars.

Gumbo

billy few mates wrote: »

Incorrect, as already stated you can have the free charger installation even if you buy an ex demo PROVIDED the dealer hasn't already availed of the grant for that car. Simples.

billy few mates wrote: »

Don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or completely missing the point but it still doesn't take away from the fact that the lady in the SEAI incorrectly answered my question when I asked if I would qualify for a free charger if I bought an ex demo. She told me out straight that I would not when there's clearly the possibility to avail of a free charger with the purchase of a second hand car PROVIDED the previous owner (the dealer) has not already availed of it. I don't know how to explain it any simpler for you....

Because with the second hand car you are getting the charger as a work around because the dealer didn't cash in the chargepoint voucher so to speak.

The SEAI were factualy correct. If the dealer had or cashed in the chargepoint 'voucher' then you would not be getting one. I looked at many demos over the years from main dealers and this is how it works.

Anyway, you should clarify if you are talking about an EV, hybrid or plug in hybrid as you may not be entitled to a chargepoint.

oppenheimer1

kceire wrote: »

Because with the second hand car you are getting the charger as a work around because the dealer didn't cash in the chargepoint voucher so to speak.

The SEAI were factualy correct. If the dealer had or cashed in the chargepoint 'voucher' then you would not be getting one. I looked at many demos over the years from main dealers and this is how it works.

Anyway, you should clarify if you are talking about an EV, hybrid or plug in hybrid as you may not be entitled to a chargepoint.

I'm sorry but the advice given from the SEAI was incorrect. He asked whether the demo car would qualify for a free charger. The correct answer is: if the car has not had it's associated free charger already claimed then it is possible to get a free charger with the cooperation of the dealer.

A yes/no answer doesn't cut it in this instance.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm sorry but the advice given from the SEAI was incorrect. He asked whether the demo car would qualify for a free charger. The correct answer is: if the car has not had it's associated free charger already claimed then it is possible to get a free charger with the cooperation of the dealer.

A yes/no answer doesn't cut it in this instance.

Strictly logically the answer was correct.

"A demo car does qualify for charger" is false, as not every demo car does. Hence a 'No' response to "Does a dome car qualify for charger" is logically correct.

Gumbo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm sorry but the advice given from the SEAI was incorrect. He asked whether the demo car would qualify for a free charger. The correct answer is: if the car has not had it's associated free charger already claimed then it is possible to get a free charger with the cooperation of the dealer.

A yes/no answer doesn't cut it in this instance.

Technically and factually a demo or second hand car (same thing) doesn't qualify for a free home charge point. I'm sorry but you are incorrect here and a simple yes/no answer is relevant. No is the correct answer.

It's swings and roundabouts how the main dealers get the chargepoint installed for you when you buy a demo.

At one stage I had a demo car and the new car the dealer was replacing it with, I was to get the home chargenpoint for that new car. SEAI were correct in their answer. That's the bottom line.

billy few mates

[snip] MOD NOTE: Cut the personal abuse

'Strictly logically or technically factually' you can spin it any way you like but it doesn't alter the fact that the information provided by the SEAI was incorrect and your own contribution to the discussion clearly supports this. She didn't say anything about one grant per vehicle, she told me out straight "the grant was only available to cars which were purchased new, second hand cars do not qualify". This is factually incorrect.
Your argument is solely based on semantics and doesn't alter the facts so unless you've anything useful to contribute to the discussion I suggest we just agree to disagree and move on.

Gumbo

billy few mates wrote: »

Never argue with a fool, they'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience (George Carlin).

'Strictly logically or technically factually' you can spin it any way you like but it doesn't alter the fact that the information provided by the SEAI was incorrect and your own contribution to the discussion clearly supports this. She didn't say anything about one grant per vehicle, she told me out straight "the grant was only available to cars which were purchased new, second hand cars do not qualify". This is factually incorrect.
Your argument is solely based on semantics and doesn't alter the facts so unless you've anything useful to contribute to the discussion I suggest we just agree to disagree and move on.

"Ask people for advice, then never accept the advice given" billynomates, boards.ie


SEAI are correct. It's the garage that are swinging the charge points between cars. If you don't understand this, fair enough, that's not a problem, but if you can't accept the truth then no point trying to inform you any further.

You still haven't clarified whether you are looking for an EV or hybrid or PHEV yet as this effects whether you get one or not.

Orebro

billy few mates wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] MOD NOTE: Cut the personal abuse

oppenheimer1

grogi wrote: »

Strictly logically the answer was correct.

"A demo car does qualify for charger" is false, as not every demo car does. Hence a negation "A demo car does not qualify for charger" is true.

Your latter statement is only true if ALL demos do not qualify. Some do, if they have not had their charger already claimed.

kceire wrote: »

Technically and factually a demo or second hand car (same thing) doesn't qualify for a free home charge point. I'm sorry but you are incorrect here and a simple yes/no answer is relevant. No is the correct answer.

It's swings and roundabouts how the main dealers get the chargepoint installed for you when you buy a demo.

At one stage I had a demo car and the new car the dealer was replacing it with, I was to get the home chargenpoint for that new car. SEAI were correct in their answer. That's the bottom line.

If the dealer hasn't claimed the charger for a particular car; the dealer can claim that charger for you. The method here isn't important, but the end result.

There is no straight yes/no answer if you can get a free charger on a demo. The answer has to be "it depends" or "there are ways". That's what the poster should have been told by SEAI.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Your latter statement is only true if ALL demos do not qualify. Some do, if they have not had their charger already claimed.

Yes, you're actually right, I made a mistake there. Negation of "for all X" is "exist not X", not "for all not X".

But that does not change the fact that a negative answer to a question 'does demo qualify for free charger?' is correct.

Gumbo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Your latter statement is only true if ALL demos do not qualify. Some do, if they have not had their charger already claimed.



If the dealer hasn't claimed the charger for a particular car; the dealer can claim that charger for you. The method here isn't important, but the end result.

There is no straight yes/no answer if you can get a free charger on a demo. The answer has to be "it depends" or "there are ways". That's what the poster should have been told by SEAI.

I agree, the end user ends up with a charge point, but I am going by the rules of the SEAI scheme and what they said is strictly true.

goz83

A demo car is still technically a used car and is not new. The dealer is the registered owner. So it was correct to say that a demo (used) car does not qualify for a free CP. The lady might not have known that a free CP could still be claimed if it wasn't claimed by the original owner (the dealer).

cros13

Right lads. The point is settled.

billy few mates

goz83 wrote: »

A demo car is still technically a used car and is not new. The dealer is the registered owner. So it was correct to say that a demo (used) car does not qualify for a free CP. The lady might not have known that a free CP could still be claimed if it wasn't claimed by the original owner (the dealer).

This was exactly the situation in my case but some people would prefer to argue that technically she was right even though she was clearly wrong. Anyway it's all sorted now, we can all move on.

Falcon L

Well, this thread has taken a few twists and turns, along with the, seemingly obligatory, handbags at dawn.

There seems to be a view out there that the public charging system will not be needed in years to come. I'm not convinced. Are we assuming that any increase in EV uptake won't be reflected in our tourists? Of course it will, and they should be encouraged to come here and enjoy our beautiful country. Most of the truly natural beauty in the country has little or no fast charging available. I'm sure many foreign EV drivers have looked at the charger map and said "no point in us going there".

There will still be a need for a public fast charging network, albeit for certain circumstances only. The problem will be that there probably won't be enough demand for the for it to be commercially viable. That's a bit of a conundrum. How can it be solved?

I think that our electricity grid will cope with the home charge demand, or can be easily upgraded to do so. A requirement for 3 phase would be another matter. We don't normally have 3 phase in domestic applications, unlike much of the continent.

I don't think there is any doubt that the cars are coming, or are already here. Mass adoption of EVs is highly likely, and in the near future. Will we see it handled correctly by government? I have my doubts.

ELM327

Falcon L wrote: »

Well, this thread has taken a few twists and turns, along with the, seemingly obligatory, handbags at dawn.

There seems to be a view out there that the public charging system will not be needed in years to come. I'm not convinced. Are we assuming that any increase in EV uptake won't be reflected in our tourists? Of course it will, and they should be encouraged to come here and enjoy our beautiful country. Most of the truly natural beauty in the country has little or no fast charging available. I'm sure many foreign EV drivers have looked at the charger map and said "no point in us going there".

There will still be a need for a public fast charging network, albeit for certain circumstances only. The problem will be that there probably won't be enough demand for the for it to be commercially viable. That's a bit of a conundrum. How can it be solved?

I think that our electricity grid will cope with the home charge demand, or can be easily upgraded to do so. A requirement for 3 phase would be another matter. we don't normally have 3 phase in domestic applications, unlike much of the continent.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the cars are coming, or are already here. Mass adoption of EVs is highly likely, and in the near future. Will we see it handled correctly by government? I have my doubts.

Interesting post. My points of view:

-It will not be handled by government correctly, not a chance.
-3 phase is nearly normal in central europe, especially Germany. 11kW AC on night rate would give over 100kWh at night.
- Fast chargers will be needed, but the current map wont. What I think will/should happen is consolidation. So instead of 1 FCP with 43/50kW, interspersed across the country, we should instead have 4+ per site, each capable of delivering over 100kW. Ideally 350kW when cars can take it. On a long trip you charge up for 5 minutes, then you drive for another 500km.
Then when you get home, you plug into your night rate 11kW AC and charge up for the next day. There's no problem taking 11kW at night, as, often demand is so low versus supply that your supplier is being paid to use the electricity.

EV heaven!

But very few people would need more than even 160 Kms range a day so that charging a 100 Kwh battery is not a big problem, in other words, if a commute like mine would consume 28 Kwh in total and I charge up every night at just 3.3 Kw I still will have 100% charge for that long weekend trip with an overnight charge.

Only those who can't be bothered to plug in every night might find themselves struggling to charge the full 100 Kwh on the Friday night for the Weekend trip.

ELM327

yes but, as we know, change is not accepted on the basis of what people need. It's accepted based on people's perception of what they need.

People don't need 500km of range, with 5 minutes "refueling" time, but I suspect EV adoption as a mass market will not happen until such tech is possible, ubiquitous and cheaper than ICE

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

But very few people would need more than even 160 Kms range a day so that charging a 100 Kwh battery is not a big problem, in other words, if a commute like mine would consume 28 Kwh in total and I charge up every night at just 3.3 Kw I still will have 100% charge for that long weekend trip with an overnight charge.

Only those who can't be bothered to plug in every night might find themselves struggling to charge the full 100 Kwh on the Friday night for the Weekend trip.

But we can't plan for just your particular scenario, can we? Many people will never be able to charge at home. Think apartment dwellers, or houses with on-street parking, or rented accommodation where the owner won't allow a charger to be fitted. There will be a group who can not charge at home. I think we need to accept that.

I mentioned tourists earlier. They will rely on charging as they travel, and I wouldn't count on being able to charge at a B&B, or even a hotel. Many hotels have 1 charge point. What happens when 2 or 3 EV owners want to stay there? Not to mention high milers.

Whatever plan might emerge for charging away from home, it has to cover everyone. We need to move away from the hobbyist/early adopter and move towards mass adoption, or it won't happen.

If People can't grasp that idea of keeping the car charge daily than they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.

I accept there'll be need in some circumstances for 3 phase for people with 2 electric cars that may need to charge at 7 Kw for longer commutes.

Then there are those with no home charging who won't be buying electric cars for a very, very long time.

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

If People can't grasp that idea of keeping the car charge daily than they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.

I accept there'll be need in some circumstances for 3 phase for people with 2 electric cars that may need to charge at 7 Kw for longer commutes.

Then there are those with no home charging who won't be buying electric cars for a very, very long time.

So, we're happy to limit uptake rather than encourage mass uptake? Is that the right approach?

I'm sure most people can grasp the idea of keeping the car charged, but will only be able to do this on a public network. ICE cars aren't the future. EVs could be, but will need to be facilitated to encourage ownership.

I think the EV has gone past the point of a quirky, hobby type vehicle. It is now possible to cover most motoring requirements. IMHO, the public charging issue is the biggest hurdle it faces.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

yes but, as we know, change is not accepted on the basis of what people need. It's accepted based on people's perception of what they need.

People don't need 500km of range, with 5 minutes "refueling" time, but I suspect EV adoption as a mass market will not happen until such tech is possible, ubiquitous and cheaper than ICE

Its a difficult one to call. I think what you are saying is that until EV's work the same way as ICE for refuelling you won't get mass adoption. I have my doubts on that.

People will change behaviour and perception when they are "forced" to. Its not a direct comparison but think of the old mobile phones and how long the battery used last and now think of the smartphone and how long it lasts. People have adopted to daily charging of a mobile because they had to. Daily (or maybe 2-3 times a week) charging of an EV will become the norm for anyone doing any decent length commute.

Refuelling of an EV will get faster of course but the really fast charging(150kW+) will only happen on the high end EV's (75-100kWh) which won't be the mass market at all, imo. The majority will be in the <60kWh bracket for a long time to come unless there is some battery tech breakthrough and even then it would take a decade for that to go into production and filter through to car sales.

Falcon L wrote: »

But we can't plan for just your particular scenario, can we? Many people will never be able to charge at home. Think apartment dwellers, or houses with on-street parking, or rented accommodation where the owner won't allow a charger to be fitted. There will be a group who can not charge at home. I think we need to accept that.

I mentioned tourists earlier. They will rely on charging as they travel, and I wouldn't count on being able to charge at a B&B, or even a hotel. Many hotels have 1 charge point. What happens when 2 or 3 EV owners want to stay there? Not to mention high milers.

Whatever plan might emerge for charging away from home, it has to cover everyone. We need to move away from the hobbyist/early adopter and move towards mass adoption, or it won't happen.

Its hard to see a decent solution to the "no home charger" problem. At present they will simply have to buy a car with as big a battery as possible and hope that that will suffice for a week or so and then visit an FCP. Its going to be expensive for them because FCP's wont be cheap and neither will a car that has a big battery to last a week!

Maybe Lidl FCP's will solve it for us!

Falcon L

Falcon L wrote: »

So, we're happy to limit uptake rather than encourage mass uptake? Is that the right approach?

I'm sure most people can grasp the idea of keeping the car charged, but will only be able to do this on a public network. ICE cars aren't the future. EVs could be, but will need to be facilitated to encourage ownership.

I think the EV has gone past the point of a quirky, hobby type vehicle. It is now possible to cover most motoring requirements. IMHO, the public charging issue is the biggest hurdle it faces.

The real limit is lack of electric cars to choose, range is only beginning to get acceptable and there's nowhere for apartment owners to charge.

My Brother would have got an EV but decided yet again to get another diesel for his 10 Km daily commute because the management agency basically said there is no solution to billing and we're not going to admin it and if we do in the future it will be a communal solution and at that there will be no charge point in every parking bay it will be a couple of charge points for everyone to share, that's their master plan for the future lol.

cros13

I see things like this:

For the vast majority of EV owners in ireland 95% of their charging will be at home at 32A or less. 32A AC charging at home will provide 60kWh overnight in 9 hours. In the very long term I'd see homes & businesses with microgeneration and home batteries switching to home DC charging and home appliances also switch to DC (that's decades away though).

Service stations and motorway service areas connected to the 110kV or 220kV grid with as few as four or as many as 30 350-500kW DC rapids in load sharing pairs. Far fewer of these than the current number of service stations. These would serve long distance travel and people in rural areas without home charging for whatever reason.

Urban charging in multi-story car parks with AC charging at every space and some limited DC charging.

With autonomous vehicles I'd just see the conductive connection to the car being automated.... maybe low power AC charging going induction.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Its a difficult one to call. I think what you are saying is that until EV's work the same way as ICE for refuelling you won't get mass adoption. I have my doubts on that.

People will change behaviour and perception when they are "forced" to. Its not a direct comparison but think of the old mobile phones and how long the battery used last and now think of the smartphone and how long it lasts. People have adopted to daily charging of a mobile because they had to. Daily (or maybe 2-3 times a week) charging of an EV will become the norm for anyone doing any decent length commute.

Refuelling of an EV will get faster of course but the really fast charging(150kW+) will only happen on the high end EV's (75-100kWh) which won't be the mass market at all, imo. The majority will be in the <60kWh bracket for a long time to come unless there is some battery tech breakthrough and even then it would take a decade for that to go into production and filter through to car sales.

People will change when they are forced to, but also when it is the easiest option.
The longer battery life of my old nokia 3210 was superseded by the functionality of my iPhone. (or android, if you are so inclined).

So. If it is easier to have 300km range, because for example fossil fuel trebles or quadruples in price, then mass adoption will happen.

It's difficult at the moment, because we are in a basket case market. Pretty much everyone who owns an ev at the moment is a fanboy, because the product is not as easy as an ICE, and in some cases is more expensive. John Farmer or Jane Housewife won't buy an EV until there is no more fear of running out, of crappy, non maintained charging networks like we have now, fear of battery degradation, etc etc

Essentially we have not enough push or pull factors to engage a mass change like we had from horse and cart to petrol, like from petrol to diesel in farming in the late 50s/early 60s, like petrol to diesel in July 2008.

IMO if we want change there needs to be push factors (increased tax on fossil fuel, increased VRT for diesels, increased fossil fuel duty etc) and also pull (nicer cars, cheaper cars, tax incentives, same range with cheaper fuel and more reliability) or nothing will happen.

Remember this is Ireland, where we still burn turf and coal.

ELM327

cros13 wrote: »

I see things like this:

For the vast majority of EV owners in ireland 95% of their charging will be at home at 32A or less. 32A AC charging at home will provide 60kWh overnight in 9 hours. In the very long term I'd see homes & businesses with microgeneration and home batteries switching to home DC charging and home appliances also switch to DC (that's decades away though).

Service stations and motorway service areas connected to the 110kV or 220kV grid with as few as four or as many as 30 350-500kW DC rapids in load sharing pairs. Far fewer of these than the current number of service stations. These would serve long distance travel and people in rural areas without home charging for whatever reason.

Urban charging in multi-story car parks with AC charging at every space and some limited DC charging.

With autonomous vehicles I'd just see the conductive connection to the car being automated.... maybe low power AC charging going induction.

I concur with pretty much all of this, with the possible exception of the DC home appliances. But that's not really EV related so i wont push it! :pac:

Falcon L

cros13 wrote: »

I see things like this:

For the vast majority of EV owners in ireland 95% of their charging will be at home at 32A or less. 32A AC charging at home will provide 60kWh overnight in 9 hours. In the very long term I'd see homes & businesses with microgeneration and home batteries switching to home DC charging and home appliances also switch to DC (that's decades away though).

Service stations and motorway service areas connected to the 110kV or 220kV grid with as few as four or as many as 30 350-500kW DC rapids in load sharing pairs. Far fewer of these than the current number of service stations. These would serve long distance travel and people in rural areas without home charging for whatever reason.

Urban charging in multi-story car parks with AC charging at every space and some limited DC charging.

With autonomous vehicles I'd just see the conductive connection to the car being automated.... maybe low power AC charging going induction.

Hard to see fault with any of that. In a perfect world.

Now, who's gonna plan and implement that vision?

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

Service stations and motorway service areas connected to the 110kV or 220kV grid with as few as four or as many as 30 350-500kW DC rapids in load sharing pairs. Far fewer of these than the current number of service stations. These would serve long distance travel and people in rural areas without home charging for whatever reason.

How many EV's could you charge on a 110kV connection and at what rate?

BoatMad

Essentially we have not enough push or pull factors to engage a mass change like we had from horse and cart to petrol, like from petrol to diesel in farming in the late 50s/early 60s, like petrol to diesel in July 2008

Yes this is clearly the issue with EVs. its not a disruptive technology like say the switch from ordinary phone to smartphone has been, at the end of the day an EV is just a car .

Ultimately the autonomous vehicle, however its powered , is likely to encourage far more social change and adoption and it may well be that EVs with autonomous control will be the trigger for mass adoption

My Brother would have got an EV but decided yet again to get another diesel for his 10 Km daily commute because the management agency basically said there is no solution to billing and we're not going to admin it and if we do in the future it will be a communal solution and at that there will be no charge point in every parking bay it will be a couple of charge points for everyone to share, that's their master plan for the future lol.

This is an area where the LEV taskforce suggested that significant legislative change is needed to , provide for work charging , apartments , rental etc. i.e. anywhere you have a dedicated parking space, then you should not need permission to install a charger

On street is way more problematic and will have to be solved by using fast chargers and longer range, there is no scalable on street EV charging solution

I think the EV has gone past the point of a quirky, hobby type vehicle. It is now possible to cover most motoring requirements. IMHO, the public charging issue is the biggest hurdle it faces.

I do not agree, a combination of longer range and fewer but ,multiple high speed charger locations is all that is required , that will happen

-It will not be handled by government correctly, not a chance.
-3 phase is nearly normal in central europe, especially Germany. 11kW AC on night rate would give over 100kWh at night.
- Fast chargers will be needed, but the current map wont. What I think will/should happen is consolidation. So instead of 1 FCP with 43/50kW, interspersed across the country, we should instead have 4+ per site, each capable of delivering over 100kW. Ideally 350kW when cars can take it. On a long trip you charge up for 5 minutes, then you drive for another 500km.
Then when you get home, you plug into your night rate 11kW AC and charge up for the next day. There's no problem taking 11kW at night, as, often demand is so low versus supply that your supplier is being paid to use the electricity.

Just be aware that most of Continental Europe , where 3-phase is supplied , its at very low power per phase ( 6kw , 9 Kw in france for example ) , simply saying 3-phase and extrapolating that to mean " high power " is actually incorrect. Even in Germany , 3 phase of more then 36kw in domestic situations is not common

France for example has actually reverted to high power single phase in new installations

Ireland and the UK actually provide largely very similar max power facilities in domestic situations to their continental counterparts who are using 3-phase


3-phase further complicates EV charging as a domestic 3-phase supply is very rarely balanced across 3 phases, whereas 3-phase EVSE are inherently drawing identical energy from the supply, so often the presence of a higher power unbalanced phase in a 3-phase situation can lead to a situation where max 3 phase drawdown across all phases is limited.

BoatMad

Falcon L wrote: »

Hard to see fault with any of that. In a perfect world.

Now, who's gonna plan and implement that vision?

in Ireland, given the spatial demographics , the state and its policies will play a very large part

BoatMad

Falcon L wrote: »

But we can't plan for just your particular scenario, can we? Many people will never be able to charge at home. Think apartment dwellers, or houses with on-street parking, or rented accommodation where the owner won't allow a charger to be fitted. There will be a group who can not charge at home. I think we need to accept that.

I mentioned tourists earlier. They will rely on charging as they travel, and I wouldn't count on being able to charge at a B&B, or even a hotel. Many hotels have 1 charge point. What happens when 2 or 3 EV owners want to stay there? Not to mention high milers.

Whatever plan might emerge for charging away from home, it has to cover everyone. We need to move away from the hobbyist/early adopter and move towards mass adoption, or it won't happen.

Tourists with EVs , will by and large be of the higher range EV type. Hence all they require is access to relatively sparse but multiple unit high powered DC chargers , in a mode similar to Teslas charge parks

The current method of scattering FCPs around in single units is a disaster

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Just be aware that most of Continental Europe , where 3-phase is supplied , its at very low power per phase ( 6kw , 9 Kw in france for example ) , simply saying 3-phase and extrapolating that to mean " high power " is actually incorrect. Even in Germany , 3 phase of more then 36kw in domestic situations is not common

France for example has actually reverted to high power single phase in new installations

Ireland and the UK actually provide largely very similar max power facilities in domestic situations to their continental counterparts who are using 3-phase


3-phase further complicates EV charging as a domestic 3-phase supply is very rarely balanced across 3 phases, whereas 3-phase EVSE are inherently drawing identical energy from the supply, so often the presence of a higher power unbalanced phase in a 3-phase situation can lead to a situation where max 3 phase drawdown across all phases is limited.

I've seen 7kW and 11kW domestic supply in Germany, I have family over there. I don't know about you but 7kW and 11kW is pretty high to charge a car, possible to get 80-100kWh overnight on night rate.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

I've seen 7kW and 11kW domestic supply in Germany, I have family over there. I don't know about you but 7kW and 11kW is pretty high to charge a car, possible to get 80-100kWh overnight on night rate.

just be aware standard domestic here can do about 18 kw, and higher single phase installations are possible

7kw is no problem in domestic situations in ireland. My EVSE does that every night

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

just be aware standard domestic here can do about 18 kw, and higher single phase installations are possible

7kw is no problem in domestic situations in ireland. My EVSE does that every night

Yes but it is my (somewhat primitive) understanding that single phase 7kW is a lot more problematic for the local grid than 3 phase (especially if 4 or 5 houses in a row attempt to charge at 7kW)

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but it is my (somewhat primitive) understanding that single phase 7kW is a lot more problematic for the local grid than 3 phase (especially if 4 or 5 houses in a row attempt to charge at 7kW)

the main reason that continental Europe adopted domestic 3 phase, was the in effect the balancing of the phases is left to the domestic installer, whereas in a single phase land , that actions is on the hands of the MV grid provider

in that regards, other then requiring to run 3-phase motors, high power single phase is easier to mange for the domestic consumer then the equivalent power rated 3 - phase

in the case of EVSEs., it doesnt matter if the supply is three phase or single phase, as the issue is the overall capacity of the local MV distribution to handle the demand . IN that regards many European countries with 3-phase domestics have an equal or even greater issue with EV charging at home

I have 3 phase running right over the garden, it would be a matter of installing a transformer on the pole and running the cables to the house, I'd say that would cost.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd say that would cost.

yep

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

I have 3 phase running right over the garden, it would be a matter of installing a transformer on the pole and running the cables to the house, I'd say that would cost.

No problem. A couple of pieces of bent wire and a good throwing arm. No charge for installation or electricity.

billy few mates

There should be some sort of a scheme where people with EVs and home chargers sign up to allow other EV owners to grab a quick charge if they're in the area and in return you would also have access to a network of home chargers if stuck for a charge somewhere.
My town has three public chargers and very few EVs that I'm aware of but one of these chargers seems to be permanently occupied by the same Nissan Leaf, I think the owner leaves it on charge to avail of the free parking while he gets the bus to town for the day.

Gumbo

billy few mates wrote: »

There should be some sort of a scheme where people with EVs and home chargers sign up to allow other EV owners to grab a quick charge if they're in the area and in return you would also have access to a network of home chargers if stuck for a charge somewhere.
My town has three public chargers and very few EVs that I'm aware of but one of these chargers seems to be permanently occupied by the same Nissan Leaf, I think the owner leaves it on charge to avail of the free parking while he gets the bus to town for the day.

There's an app that already allows this. You sign up and you state whether you have a home charge point or even simply an outdoor socket that another user can use their granny cable on.

Not very well know at present though. Also many many peopl are unaware of the granny cable and the fact that all you need is a 3 pin socket. The guy in charge of our work charging stations wasn't even aware until I said to him that if here was no money for more chargers, put in a few external sockets.