Should decentralisation be considered again?

screamer

hytrogen wrote: »

Aah but as we've been reading about with the cluster fup of CIT/UCC in the MERC decentralising centres out to back orafaces can quite easily be forgotten, mismanaged and dejected, thus proving we cannot depend on our education institutional governance anymore for reliable graduates and project coordination. That took a significant dip in our future energy's market when it broke in the news..

It's worked in other countries so perhaps we have something missing here to make it work. I do believe if done correctly it is a very viable option.

Victor

We have never had proper decentralisation (the transfer of authority from central to local government) in this country. In certain cases, it has been the other way around (abolition of health boards). We have experience the moving of centralised power to dispersed locations. If, for example, you take the Department of Defence, the department was merely moved from one location to another. This does not give any authority to anyone but the people in that one location.

I wouldn't necessarily be averse to moving central government en masse to a different location.

Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to allowing local government taking the related functions from central government - the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport control the Local Government Fund.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

All of the buildings rented would be tied into leases. The government cant just walk away when they feel like it.

Most leases can be assigned to a new tenant.

Deusexmachina

Parochial small minded nonsense. We live in a tiny country yet it's still too big for some of the inhabitants.
Decentralisation - an excuse for some yokel politician to boast 'about all de jobs I got for ye'. More needless gormless money wasting by our public service (instead of focusing on delivering actual service).

beauf

The point about the leases was part of the savings was inferred to be because we could sell the buildings. But we didn't own a lot of them they were leased.

Deusexmachina

impega1 wrote: »

Portarlington has a great service. Portlaoise has improved since arrow/commuter service was extended.

Tullamore - yes poor enough service.

However, if decision to centralise CS to an area around these locations was reached, it would not be unthinkable to add additional trains to meet demands.

Also road network to these areas are fairly decent

Have you ever lived in a country with a proper infrastructure?

beauf

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Parochial small minded nonsense. We live in a tiny country yet it's still too big for some of the inhabitants.
Decentralisation - an excuse for some yokel politician to boast 'about all de jobs I got for ye'. More needless gormless money wasting by our public service (instead of focusing on delivering actual service).

It was foisted on the PS by the politicians.

While Progressive Democrats' OPW minister Tom Parlon wasted no time in erecting 'Welcome to Parlon Country' billboards in his Laois-Offaly constituency, it was the fact that the plans flew in the face of national policy which caused controversy and stuck in the craw of so many.

Just a year earlier, the government had announced its first National Spatial Strategy, which designed nine 'gateways', including Dublin, for growth, and nine subsidiary 'hubs'. Of 77 projects, just 20 were destined for a gateway or hub. The Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants also expressed dismay at the suggestion they were to be "distributed as trophies in advance of local elections" due in June 2004.

http://www.independent.ie/life/moving-in-the-wrong-direction-the-decentralisation-debacle-35345392.html

nice_guy80

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

I moved from Dublin to Wexford over 30 years ago. No amount of money would tempt me back. However, if I was in Dublin with a young family and was offered decentralisation, I'd have to give serious consideration not to, on account of the state of provincial hospitals and lack of 3rd level colleges. Every location has ups and downs

Funny
Then why do people in County Roscommon, with no 3rd level college in the county, have the highest third level participation levels in the country?

And they have the highest life expectancy in Ireland, despite having only a small local hospital in the county.

ohnonotgmail

Victor wrote: »

We have never had proper decentralisation (the transfer of authority from central to local government) in this country. In certain cases, it has been the other way around (abolition of health boards). We have experience the moving of centralised power to dispersed locations. If, for example, you take the Department of Defence, the department was merely moved from one location to another. This does not give any authority to anyone but the people in that one location.

I wouldn't necessarily be averse to moving central government en masse to a different location.

Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to allowing local government taking the related functions from central government - the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport control the Local Government Fund.

Most leases can be assigned to a new tenant.

Assuming a new tenant can be found that is willing to pay the rent the government is currently paying. they're not know for getting bargain rents.

Ush1

Victor wrote: »

We have never had proper decentralisation (the transfer of authority from central to local government) in this country. In certain cases, it has been the other way around (abolition of health boards). We have experience the moving of centralised power to dispersed locations. If, for example, you take the Department of Defence, the department was merely moved from one location to another. This does not give any authority to anyone but the people in that one location.

I wouldn't necessarily be averse to moving central government en masse to a different location.

Similarly, I wouldn't necessarily be averse to allowing local government taking the related functions from central government - the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport control the Local Government Fund.

Most leases can be assigned to a new tenant.

Local planning is dealt with by the local council.

drake70

Plenty of information regarding decentralisation here:

http://www.decentralisation.gov.ie/index.html

awec

awec wrote: »

It's not really cheaper. The lack of infrastructure and talent is costly in the long run.

An awful of the talent is not from Dublin and forced to live there. Offer them the chance have good high skilled jobs back in their home areas (or within an hours commute say) and they would jump at the chance.

There are already a lot of multinational outside Dublin, Galway is the medical device capital of Ireland, Cork is the Pharma capital. Many of these are setup in rural areas outside the city, in cork in particular much of the pharma/medical device jobs are well out in the country and there is no issue getting skilled employees.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Parochial small minded nonsense. We live in a tiny country yet it's still too big for some of the inhabitants.
Decentralisation - an excuse for some yokel politician to boast 'about all de jobs I got for ye'. More needless gormless money wasting by our public service (instead of focusing on delivering actual service).

Jesus. You can't suggest anything to boost the economy outside of Dublin and ease congestion in it without being accused of parochialism and small mindedness. Dublin is a relatively small capital city, yet house and living prices are up there with cities ten times its size.

You try commuting three hours a day to your job in Dublin city centre which could be done anywhere and you'll see how "tiny" the country feels.

Ush1

Derrick Witty Ragamuffin wrote: »

An awful of the talent is not from Dublin and forced to live there. Offer them the chance have good high skilled jobs back in their home areas (or within an hours commute say) and they would jump at the chance.

There are already a lot of multinational outside Dublin, Galway is the medical device capital of Ireland, Cork is the Pharma capital. Many of these are setup in rural areas outside the city, in cork in particular much of the pharma/medical device jobs are well out in the country and there is no issue getting skilled employees.

Rural areas should be left rural.

seachto7

I have no long term ambition to live in Dublin or any city of similar size.

jackofalltrades

Derrick Witty Ragamuffin wrote: »

There are already a lot of multinational outside Dublin, Galway is the medical device capital of Ireland, Cork is the Pharma capital.
Many of these are setup in rural areas outside the city, in cork in particular much of the pharma/medical device jobs are well out in the country and there is no issue getting skilled employees.

Which companies are you talking about?
Because a quick look at the map shows most of them in the city or it's suburbs.

mariaalice

The best rural areas outside of Dublin, have a tourist element, a third level college good infrastructure, all of those meant you get a good mixture of ages and a population who are not just relying on farming or manufacturing for a living.

Decentralisation is making decisions at lower levels.

The last round of decentralisation just moved processing around the place, decisions on policy, funding etc are still made by a few people in and around Leinster House.

If further decentralisation is to happen power should be given to regional or local bodies.

Recent moves have been to centralise - removal of regional health boards, closure of town councils, SUSI.

jackofalltrades

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Which companies are you talking about?
Because a quick look at the map shows most of them in the city or it's suburbs.

MSD and Lilly are way out, Ringaskiddy is closer but still a long way from being a subarb of the city and houses a number of plants. Carraigtoohil also this is well outside the city at the edge of a small town in a country area.

If you were working in the plants further out you could live in any number of rural areas and have a very easy low traffic commute to work everyday compared to the poor sods dealing with Dublin traffic.

awec

Derrick Witty Ragamuffin wrote: »

An awful of the talent is not from Dublin and forced to live there. Offer them the chance have good high skilled jobs back in their home areas (or within an hours commute say) and they would jump at the chance.

There are already a lot of multinational outside Dublin, Galway is the medical device capital of Ireland, Cork is the Pharma capital. Many of these are setup in rural areas outside the city, in cork in particular much of the pharma/medical device jobs are well out in the country and there is no issue getting skilled employees.

Nobody has said there is no talent in rural Ireland, there just isn't enough. Not enough people want to live there.

These companies pick Dublin for a reason, it's improved infrastructure, it's proximity to the only major airport in the country and it's the place that their employees want to work and live.

We can talk about bringing multinationals with large numbers of employees to rural Ireland until we're blue in the face, it has been tried and the majority of them are not interested. We need to focus on other industries instead.

Deusexmachina

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

Jesus. You can't suggest anything to boost the economy outside of Dublin and ease congestion in it without being accused of parochialism and small mindedness. Dublin is a relatively small capital city, yet house and living prices are up there with cities ten times its size.

You try commuting three hours a day to your job in Dublin city centre which could be done anywhere and you'll see how "tiny" the country feels.

The same mentality that forced us to land our USA bound flights in Shamnon 'to boost the economy outside Dublin'.
Pathetic.

Deusexmachina

Derrick Witty Ragamuffin wrote: »

An awful of the talent is not from Dublin and forced to live there. Offer them the chance have good high skilled jobs back in their home areas (or within an hours commute say) and they would jump at the chance.

There are already a lot of multinational outside Dublin, Galway is the medical device capital of Ireland, Cork is the Pharma capital. Many of these are setup in rural areas outside the city, in cork in particular much of the pharma/medical device jobs are well out in the country and there is no issue getting skilled employees.

Absolutely nobody is forced to live in Dublin (other than prisoners).

jackofalltrades

Derrick Witty Ragamuffin wrote: »

MSD and Lilly are way out, Ringaskiddy is closer but still a long way from being a subarb of the city and houses a number of plants. Carraigtoohil also this is well outside the city at the edge of a small town in a country area.

So the two furthest away plants are a 30 minute drive to the city centre.
Hardly "well out in the country", if they were out in Bantry you'd have a point.
Most of the plants are in and around the city and would be an easy commute for someone living in the city or it suburbs.
Even the two furthest away plants that you list are still dependent on a skilled workforce from a city, just like the rest.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Deusexmachina wrote: »

The same mentality that forced us to land our USA bound flights in Shamnon 'to boost the economy outside Dublin'.
Pathetic.

Pathetic?!

Really??

Wake up. Dublin is choking. We need to talk about viable alternatives. Its more sustainable to counterbalance Dublin by developing industry and commerce in other cities than to ram half our population into 5% of the country.

stateofflux

has Been tried - does not work

end of thread

ToddyDoody

diomed wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for moving the Dáil to Cork.

Could we have a pop-up / roaming Seanad?

I know of a couple of suitable vacant premises.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

The Civil Service is having a rough time trying to attract potential employees to take certain roles in Dublin. Many CS roles could be decentralised, as was the plan for many years. Unless you're already Dublin based, moving to the capital to take on a job that pays 23 grand isn't feasible.

I think there is definitely scope for at least some decentralisation.

My daughter was recently offered a position in Dublin, she rejected it, and took a position in rural Wicklow instead. It paid €5k less than the Dublin job - but rents are much lower, commute times are considerably less - and she's happy with her choice.

There comes a point when rents and congestion outweigh other considerations, and that point has been reached, imo.

How anyone can be expected to pay exorbitant rents in Dublin on €23k is beyond me. I wouldn't do it - and neither did my daughter - and she earns more than €23k.

stateofflux wrote: »

has Been tried - does not work

end of thread

One word. Infrastructure.

We need an improved road and rail network before we can consider real decentralisation.

By real decentralisation, I mean employment opportunities, educational opportunities, decent infrastructure, as well as Government Depts being spread around the Country.

Much of the infrastructure is already there - where it fails is in having a central location where links to existing infrastructure could radiate from.

4ensic15

animaal wrote: »

I'm sure Cavan was considered a marginal constituency at the time

Not being a sea-faring person, I would guess that it doesn't matter much where it goes. The Dept of the Marine doesn't hold its meetings on ships. And at best, it can only be near to a very small portion of the coast anyway.

The staff are all going to live in Cavan or nearby eventually. They will more than likely have spouses who live in the same area. They will thus have no social or family contact with the industry and the environment they are supposed to regulate. If it was put in a harbour or port town they would be much more likely to be aware of the consequences of any decisions they might make.