Limerick Light Rail

Middle Man

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean dual gauge, where trams and trains would mix?

This wouldn't be allowed:
* The buffers would need to line up vertically and horizontally.
* Trains mass and speed is much higher than those of trams.
* Tram structure probably wouldn't withstand a strike from a train.

The only saving grace in Limerick is that there are currently no train services on the southern lines and any future service is likely to be limited.

Most street trams worldwide use the International Gauge of 1435mm (Dublin's Luas included) while the Irish Mainline Rail Gauge is 1600mm - it may be too costly to have trams custom made for a 1600mm gauge, so another option might be to have certain existing mainline tracks in Limerick fitted with three rails in order to allow the two types of rail vehicles to run thereon. However, there may indeed be issues with this such as buffer alignment - AFAIK, the Manchester MetroLink trams can run on railways as well as streets, but the British mainline has a standard gauge of 1435mm.

As for vehicle weight differential, is this really a problem - for example, would a DART train have much chance in an argument with an Enterprise train (headed by a heavy engine) if they were to crash head-on at lets say an equal 80kph speed (DARTS are AFAIK capable of 100/110kph)? If the DART was extended to Balbriggan, you'd be talking about such trains at a max operating speed of 80kph against the Enterprise at a max operating speed of 145kph (this could increase to 160kph) on the same tracks.

Victor

Middle Man wrote: »

Most street trams worldwide use the International Gauge of 1435mm (Dublin's Luas included) while the Irish Mainline Rail Gauge is 1600mm - it may be too costly to have trams custom made for a 1600mm gauge, so another option might be to have certain existing mainline tracks in Limerick fitted with three rails in order to allow the two types of rail vehicles to run thereon.

One has to realise that a small number of vehicles could provide Limerick with a decent service. However, you would need to re-do a lot of track and points, etc. to add a third rail. The economics would probably fall to conventional rail vehicles being best value, then Irish gauge trams, then dual gauge track.

However, there may indeed be issues with this such as buffer alignment - AFAIK, the Manchester MetroLink trams can run on railways as well as streets, but the British mainline has a standard gauge of 1435mm.

I get the impression that MetroLink shares some alignments with mainline rail, but does not share track with trains.

As for vehicle weight differential, is this really a problem - for example, would a DART train have much chance in an argument with an Enterprise train (headed by a heavy engine) if they were to crash head-on at lets say an equal 80kph speed (DARTS are AFAIK capable of 100/110kph)? If the DART was extended to Balbriggan, you'd be talking about such trains at a max operating speed of 80kph against the Enterprise at a max operating speed of 145kph (this could increase to 160kph) on the same tracks.

DART trains are designed to operate in an environment where there are other mainline trains, trams aren't. If the DART was extended to Balbriggan, they would buy new vehicles - ones that would be able to do a much higher speed than currently (100km/h).

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

I think everyone would agree that Light Rail is nicer then bus. But you do have to keep in mind the cost of it. It cost €700 million to build the two Luas lines and the current Luas Cross City project costs €365 million. So that is a total of over €1 billion!

So you have to ask would spending 500 million each on a Luas line for Cork and Limerick be good value for money?

That 1 billion could also buy you the M20 or a massive increase in the bus fleets of Cork and Limerick that would serve a much wider area of those cities then a single Luas line would.

Rather than constantly pouring cold water over any proposals to expand non-private bus services can I suggest you and others take a long term view of what enhanced PT can do for a city, especially Limerick.

I would suggest that the city and county should undertake a 30 year development plan to massively expand Limerick so that it becomes Ireland's second-largest city and a true counterweight to Dublin.

The new city of Limerick should be designed to minimise the need for private cars in the City and that means having a comprehensive light rail system in the City and suburbs, a rail connection to Shannon airport and to develop along existing and closed railways.

For further reading why not look at what the former Secretary General of the Department of Finance, John Moran has to say on the future development of Ireland and specifically Limerick.

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

The new city of Limerick should be designed to minimise the need for private cars in the City and that means having a comprehensive light rail system in the City and suburbs, a rail connection to Shannon airport and to develop along existing and closed railways.

Well right there you are starting off from a poor area of understanding.

Cork is the second largest city in Ireland, third largest if you include the reality of Belfast.

Cork is vastly larger then Limerick, with a Metro population of more then double Limericks (208,669 vs 94,192) and it is also growing much faster (5.1% growth, versus 3.0%. census 2011 to 2016).

Actually Limericks population growth is actually very poor on a national basis and ranks way done. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population

With numbers like that, it has no hope of ever becoming the second city, so please show some realism.

Having said that, Limerick should of course continue to grow and develop and plan for the future, but less of the hyperbole and more realism.

loyatemu

part of Limerick's problem is that some of the city is in Clare. Similarly some of Cork City is under the county council's control and the 2 councils don't necessarily want the same things (and attempts to expand the city limits are inevitably resisted by the counties).

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

Well right there you are starting off from a poor area of understanding.

Cork is the second largest city in Ireland, third largest if you include the reality of Belfast.

Cork is vastly larger then Limerick, with a Metro population of more then double Limericks (208,669 vs 94,192) and it is also growing much faster (5.1% growth, versus 3.0%. census 2011 to 2016).

Actually Limericks population growth is actually very poor on a national basis and ranks way done. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_population

With numbers like that, it has no hope of ever becoming the second city, so please show some realism.

Having said that, Limerick should of course continue to grow and develop and plan for the future, but less of the hyperbole and more realism.

With all due respect I am very much aware that Cork is currently Ireland's second largest city so quit patronising me.

Pay attention to what is being said outside the boards.ie bubble, there are some very serious proposals for how Ireland is to be developed over the next 40 years. The status quo is no longer an option.

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

With all due respect I am very much aware that Cork is currently Ireland's second largest city so quit patronising me.

Pay attention to what is being said outside the boards.ie bubble, there are some very serious proposals for how Ireland is to be developed over the next 40 years. The status quo is no longer an option.

Not patronising, just reality.

I've seen a few similar posts claiming Limerick could become the second largest city and it is frankly just laughable. The truth is Limerick is just barely a city, in European context it would just be called a large town.

I don't know where people are getting this idea from at all, it simply has no bases in fact, I can point you to any number of stats which will show that Limerick growth is actually quiet slow on a national basis. It certainly isn't going to catch up with Cork, not a hope. Hell even Galway is growing faster then it!

A recent report from the NTA shows that 40% of all BE's passengers are carried on the Cork network and that it is BE's fastest growing area outside of Dublin.

Cork City, County Council along with the NTA have plans to grow the metropolitan area of Cork to 500,000 in the next 30 years:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/metropolitan-cork-has-capacity-to-grow-to-population-of-500-000-1.2846012

The Cork metropolitan area had a recorded population off 296,000 in 2010, which is s expected to grow by 32 per cent by 2022 to 381,500. This would make it bigger than the projected targets over the same period for Galway, Limerick/Shannon and Waterford combined, said Mr Lucey.

Cork has massive plans for the 10 billion development down at the port, which will likely be the second largest development in the country after Dublin Port getting redeveloped.

So Cork certainly isn't waiting around for Limerick to catch up :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Limerick is a success story, it has worked hard to improve it's very high employment rates and crime issues and has done great development along the quays and I hope that it continues to go from strength to strength.

But it also has to be realistic about it's place in the development of the whole country.

Cork and Limerick need to work together to get the M20 built and act as a counter balance to Dublin in as much as then can. They need to work together rather then against one another.

BTW Nationally the real power axis is Dublin - Belfast, most of the countries population growth is along this axis and it would explode under the unlikely scenario of unification. Cork and Limerick need to scramble and work together to offer an alternative to this axis.

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

Not patronising, just reality.

I've seen a few similar posts claiming Limerick could become the second largest city and it is frankly just laughable. The truth is Limerick is just barely a city, in European context it would just be called a large town.

I don't know where people are getting this idea from at all, it simply has no bases in fact, I can point you to any number of stats which will show that Limerick growth is actually quiet slow on a national basis. It certainly isn't going to catch up with Cork, not a hope. Hell even Galway is growing faster then it!

A recent report from the NTA shows that 40% of all BE's passengers are carried on the Cork network and that it is BE's fastest growing area outside of Dublin.

Cork City, County Council along with the NTA have plans to grow the metropolitan area of Cork to 500,000 in the next 30 years:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/metropolitan-cork-has-capacity-to-grow-to-population-of-500-000-1.2846012



Cork has massive plans for the 10 billion development down at the port, which will likely be the second largest development in the country after Dublin Port getting redeveloped.

So Cork certainly isn't waiting around for Limerick to catch up :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Limerick is a success story, it has worked hard to improve it's very high employment rates and crime issues and has done great development along the quays and I hope that it continues to go from strength to strength.

But it also has to be realistic about it's place in the development of the whole country.

Cork and Limerick need to work together to get the M20 built and act as a counter balance to Dublin in as much as then can. They need to work together rather then against one another.

BTW Nationally the real power axis is Dublin - Belfast, most of the countries population growth is along this axis and it would explode under the unlikely scenario of unification. Cork and Limerick need to scramble and work together to offer an alternative to this axis.

So in effect Limerick must "know its place".

I appreciate your loyalty to Cork, but if one was looking with fresh eyes at where to expand in Ireland Limerick would be the obvious choice.

Deep sea port at Foynes, transatlantic airport at Shannon, motorway and dual carriageway connections to Dublin, Galway and hopefully in the next few years a motorway to Cork. Add to that major rail connections and you have the perfect groundwork in place to really significantly expand the city. It's not just me saying this.

Oh and what does the BTW phrase you use in your posts mean?

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

Deep sea port at Foynes, transatlantic airport at Shannon, motorway and dual carriageway connections to Dublin, Galway and hopefully in the next few years a motorway to Cork. Add to that major rail connections and you have the perfect groundwork in place to really significantly expand the city. It's not just me saying this.

Hold on their a second, Cork has the second deepest natural harbour in the world! It has a motorway to Dublin too and an hourly intercity train service. Cork Airport carries more passengers then Shannon and now is starting to do transatlantic flights too.

BTW The M20 is likely to benefit and grow Cork more then Limerick. Some people in Limerick have actually been trying to block it as they fear it will help Cork and Galway more then Limerick and that people may simply bypass Limerick and just travel between Galway and Cork, which you have to remember are both growing faster then Limerick.

I disagree with that stance and I think Limerick will benefit from it greatly too, but in reality it will allow Cork to massively develop the north Cork region as a commuter area into Cork city.

And BTW the Cork intercity network is by far the busiest route in the country, representing 25% of all intercity traffic. Limerick is only 7%

Cork has a much better developed bus network.

Cork has a much more successful Commuter train network, that is absolutely primed for major housing development along it's lines.

Cork has a massive port right on the edge of the city, just waiting and begging for development, which will literally double the population of the city.

Truth is both cities have massive potential for growth and I hope they both do. I just think this Limerick as a second city talk is just idiotic and not supported at all by any facts and certainly doesn't help Cork and Limerick to work together to grow as an alternative to Dublin.

While I maybe a Corkonian, I actually live in Dublin and I'm aware that both Cork and Limerick are laughably small compared to Dublin and in particular the Dublin - Belfast axis where most of the growth in our nation is actually happening.

Drop the silly "second city" talk and focus on developing your city and working with Cork and Galway to develop the region as a counter balance to Dublin - Belfast.

Taytosnax wrote: »

Oh and what does the BTW phrase you use in your posts mean?

By The Way

keane2097

bk wrote: »

Hold on their a second, Cork has the second deepest natural harbour in the world!

Link?

bk

keane2097 wrote: »

Link?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Harbour

Though I note that I said deepest, rather then largest.

There is a reason why the Titanic and other Atlantic bound cruise shapes used the harbour.

keane2097

bk wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Harbour

Though I note that I said deepest, rather then largest.

There is a reason why the Titanic and other Atlantic bound cruise shapes used the harbour.

Ok it's just that I see that mentioned around the place without anyone ever saying where they got the idea from. I obviously looked on the wikipedia page already. I can lay claim to being the deepest harbour in the world myself for all the worth that has.

Closest thing I ever saw to anyone trying to verify it is here:

https://passiveimpressions.com/2014/12/15/cork-harbour-the-second-largest-in-the-world/

bk

keane2097 wrote: »

Closest thing I ever saw to anyone trying to verify it is here:

https://passiveimpressions.com/2014/12/15/cork-harbour-the-second-largest-in-the-world/

Very interesting, thanks

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

While I maybe a Corkonian, I actually live in Dublin and I'm aware that both Cork and Limerick are laughably small compared to Dublin and in particular the Dublin - Belfast axis where most of the growth in our nation is actually happening.

Drop the silly "second city" talk and focus on developing your city and working with Cork and Galway to develop the region as a counter balance to Dublin - Belfast.

I have zero connection with Limerick, don't have a particular attachment to it, but have been involved with planning for many years and look at its potential in an entirely objective way.

The Cork-Galway-Limerick region needs to be developed as a whole, there is undoubtedly a better quality of life across the board but given that Limerick is that bit nearer to Dublin with potentially cheaper land to develop it is a better bet for expansion. Not that Cork doesn't have its benefits too. East Cork and in particular the Cork-Carraigtwohill-Midelton-Youghal axis would be ideal for further development.

I suspect your obvious antipathy to my views on Limerick are driven by Cork loyalty - nothing wrong with that. However there are serious proposals out there for Limerick expansion and in forty years time if we as a nation can get our act together and plan long term this may happen.

The East of Ireland is overcooking again and if we fall into the trap of allowing this to continue we will condemn our nation to long commutes and overcrowding in the East. Also the very real danger that we succumb to Road and private bus lobbyists and allow our rail network to wither west of the Shannon will condemn the land outside the Pale to be a mere hinterland.

Ireland has failed in the past to plan adequately because there we give a bigger voice to vested interests rather than sit back and think what is needed to secure our long term future as a nation.

We need to get away from the "managed decline" approach that has been at the heart of Irish Government policy since independence and move instead to a deliberate policy of how to cope with an expanding population of up to and even over 10 million. We have the land to do this and with the right balance we can build a sustainable economy to support this. But we need to make the right decisions now based on achievable targets and not on how we have always done things.

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

I suspect your obvious antipathy to my views on Limerick are driven by Cork loyalty - nothing wrong with that. However there are serious proposals out there for Limerick expansion and in forty years time if we as a nation can get our act together and plan long term this may happen.

My views are driven by facts and statistics.

How can you as a supposed "planner" claim that Limerick will grow to become the "second city" when in terms of population it is so far behind Cork and it is growing at half the rate of Cork?

Hell even Galway is growing faster then Limerick!

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any logical sense.

And of course it all ignores the reality that Belfast is really the second city of the island of Ireland.

Yes their are some great plans to continue the development and growth of Limerick, just as there are great plans to continue the development and growth of Cork. I hope they all go ahead and both cities grow. But forget about the "second city" nonsense.

Taytosnax

bk wrote: »

My views are driven by facts and statistics.

How can you as a supposed "planner" claim that Limerick will grow to become the "second city" when in terms of population it is so far behind Cork and it is growing at half the rate of Cork?

Hell even Galway is growing faster then Limerick!

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any logical sense.

And of course it all ignores the reality that Belfast is really the second city of the island of Ireland.

Yes their are some great plans to continue the development and growth of Limerick, just as there are great plans to continue the development and growth of Cork. I hope they all go ahead and both cities grow. But forget about the "second city" nonsense.

Ok. Tell me what you do for a living and who do you work for to justify your attacks on me?

bk

Taytosnax wrote: »

Ok. Tell me what you do for a living and who do you work for to justify your attacks on me?

Why?! You are the one who is making incredulous claims about Limerick becoming the second city, with absolutely zero to back it up.

I can read CSO numbers as well as anyone. You are the one who needs to back up your claim.

D.L.R.

Taytosnax wrote: »

The East of Ireland is overcooking again and if we fall into the trap of allowing this to continue we will condemn our nation to long commutes and overcrowding in the East.

Dublin isn't overcrowded. The problem is lack of capacity in housing and transport and bad planning. Dublin is a small city. Suggesting its overcrowded is laughable.

You don't solve Dublin's problems in the West of Ireland, you solve them in Dublin.

rebel456

D.L.R. wrote: »

Dublin isn't overcrowded. The problem is lack of capacity in housing and transport and bad planning. Dublin is a small city. Suggesting its overcrowded is laughable.

You don't solve Dublin's problems in the West of Ireland, you solve them in Dublin.

Problem in Dublin is density - low rise buildings dominate on average, coupled with abysmal occupancy rates above 3rd storey (i.e. above shop living in city centre areas). If Dublin streets outside those primarily for offices had 5/6 storey buildings with apartments on each floor above the shops you'd have something similar to Paris in terms of density.

Same goes for Limerick when considering light rail - improve your bus links (bus lanes, signal priority, express routes, BRT, etc), increase density in areas of future tram stops. Then you have the case made for a Limerick LUAS. At the moment it's another shiny new Celtic Tiger-esque grand idea that local politicians will peddle to the punters for years to come.

Pete_Cavan

Why is it that when we talk about public transport improvements, people immediately jump to light rail? Given the existing network, surely Limerick has good potential for heavy rail based commuter services. With relatively small investment, the existing heavy rail lines could provide a pretty decent network, serving numerous residential and commercial areas, as well as the city centre. There is also scope for further development around this. The main limiting factor is that all lines approach Colbert from the same side so through services can't operate.

The existing motorways around the city also lend themselves to feeding traffic to Park and Ride stations for onward travel into the city centre. There could be P&Rs around Cratloe, Annscotty and Patrickswell. I have said before that, as part of the M20 project, a rail link should be created along side the motorway from Charleville to Patrickswell.

McAlban

rebel456 wrote: »

At the moment it's another shiny new Celtic Tiger-esque grand idea that local politicians will peddle to the punters for years to come.

Not a Grand Idea to Plan properly for the future. Before It's Over Developed with Urban Sprawl like Dublin.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why is it that when we talk about public transport improvements, people immediately jump to light rail? Given the existing network, surely Limerick has good potential for heavy rail based commuter services. With relatively small investment, the existing heavy rail lines could provide a pretty decent network, serving numerous residential and commercial areas, as well as the city centre. There is also scope for further development around this. The main limiting factor is that all lines approach Colbert from the same side so through services can't operate.

The existing motorways around the city also lend themselves to feeding traffic to Park and Ride stations for onward travel into the city centre. There could be P&Rs around Cratloe, Annscotty and Patrickswell. I have said before that, as part of the M20 project, a rail link should be created along side the motorway from Charleville to Patrickswell.

I've already posted a link earlier about a mixed network. Commuter - Ennis to Limerick JC., Nenagh to Rathkeale and Light Rail from Shannon Airport to a new Heavy Rail Station at Annacotty Business Park, via UL Castletroy and Annacotty.

A Properly planned integrated network would be well used.

Taytosnax

McAlban wrote: »

Not a Grand Idea to Plan properly for the future. Before It's Over Developed with Urban Sprawl like Dublin.



I've already posted a link earlier about a mixed network. Commuter - Ennis to Limerick JC., Nenagh to Rathkeale and Light Rail from Shannon Airport to a new Heavy Rail Station at Annacotty Business Park, via UL Castletroy and Annacotty.

A Properly planned integrated network would be well used.

Good common sense stuff!

mdmix

bk wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cork_Harbour

Though I note that I said deepest, rather then largest.

There is a reason why the Titanic and other Atlantic bound cruise shapes used the harbour.

just noticed that link says cork can only handle cargo ships up to 90,000 dtw, where as Foynes can handle more than twice that. Shannon Airport and Foynes port are seriously under utilised national assets. Shannon air traffic peaked at 3.5 million and now sits at half that. I'm not interested in driving the Limerick vs Cork debate. its clear that investment in infrastructure is needed in both cities. limerick in particular needs a proper bus network, with actual bus and cycle lanes that go for more than 20 meter before finishing.

as far as light rail goes, id like to see a feasibility study done. the limerick junction line goes approx 3k out of colbert station where it is then approx 4k of greenfields to the university. directly across these greenfields is city east park(space for 4 thousand workers when finished) and a number of apartment complex and housing estates. I'm not saying this needs to be built now, but someone should at least mark this out on a map.

McAlban

I think the only piece of new Railway Alignment in the Limerick City Development Plan is the restoration of the Carey's Road Bridge. Their Mapping leaves a bit to be desired (Kerry and Fingal for example have gone to ARCGIS which is great). The Foynes Line could provide a commuter service from Rathkeale, Askeaton and Adare, passing through Patrickswell and Raheen as well as freight if ever opened again. Also might get some of those tour busses clogging up Adare off the Road.

Anyway. See the Below post...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104109837&postcount=179

Pete_Cavan

McAlban wrote: »

I've already posted a link earlier about a mixed network. Commuter - Ennis to Limerick JC., Nenagh to Rathkeale and Light Rail from Shannon Airport to a new Heavy Rail Station at Annacotty Business Park, via UL Castletroy and Annacotty.

I generally agree but my point was that it would be possible to do most of that by upgrading the existing heavy rail network. Light rail from Shannon Airport to Annacotty is about 30km but half of that is through open countryside with no viable stops and most of the remainder on already congested city streets. It would cost a few hundred million between land acquisition, infrastructure, rolling stock, etc. I just think you would get more bang for your buck if that money we invested in the existing rail network around the city.

McAlban

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I generally agree but my point was that it would be possible to do most of that by upgrading the existing heavy rail network. Light rail from Shannon Airport to Annacotty is about 30km but half of that is through open countryside with no viable stops and most of the remainder on already congested city streets. It would cost a few hundred million between land acquisition, infrastructure, rolling stock, etc. I just think you would get more bang for your buck if that money we invested in the existing rail network around the city.

Its Taking a Holistic Approach to the Network. Connecting Shannon Airport to Main Rail is the objective, and you cannot do that without running through countryside, Grade Separated empty countryside + No Stations = Speed. It also connects the Airport to Industrial and commercial centres such as Shannon, Castletroy and Annacotty Business Park. Plus UL LIT and Thomand Park. It would be heavily used and a success from Day One.

You are Right though The Heavy Rail Cross City Service from Nenagh to Rathkeale and Ennis to L Jc. Won't work unless line speeds are going to beat the congested traffic, so will need investment.

pigtown

McAlban wrote: »

Its Taking a Holistic Approach to the Network. Connecting Shannon Airport to Main Rail is the objective, and you cannot do that without running through countryside, Grade Separated empty countryside + No Stations = Speed. It also connects the Airport to Industrial and commercial centres such as Shannon, Castletroy and Annacotty Business Park. Plus UL LIT and Thomand Park. It would be heavily used and a success from Day One.

You are Right though The Heavy Rail Cross City Service from Nenagh to Rathkeale and Ennis to L Jc. Won't work unless line speeds are going to beat the congested traffic, so will need investment.

I'm not convinced. A stop at an industrial estate will inevitably mean a 10 minute walk to the front door of the factory, which by itself is grand. But if you also have to factor in a 10-15 minute walk from your front door in a badly laid-out, pedestrian unfriendly housing estate or from your one-off house in the countryside then that creates a substantial disincentive for you to use the train.

Until we stop developing car orientated residential and commercial areas in the suburbs then light rail just will not be viable.

Paddico

I hear theres a centre offering day trips to the moon opening in the South of the City.
This wont happen for 50 years lads. Forget it

Mc Love

McAlban wrote: »

After what Trellheim Said: Over the weekend I thought a bit about this and decided to get the crayons out... Discuss...

This is a really good plan! I just mentioned on the M20 thread that if there was a dooradoyle stop, that I'd be leaving the car at home. The line goes behind the houses in Huntsfield, if there was a station near that bridge it would be perfect. Another one further up at ballycummin/back of industrial estate would be great.

Bus fares in Galway, Cork and Limerick are to drop

http://connachttribune.ie/cheaper-bus-eireann-fares-for-oranmore-and-barna/