Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

gizmo555

gizmo555 wrote: »

Again, you're ignoring the question.

Really? Or maybe my answer isn't to your liking.

Sorry, but these cards have been around for years and not a murmur until recently. What exactly is the problem with them?

gizmo555

Deleted User wrote: »

Really?

Yes, really.

You claimed that the Dept "MUST be sure that the information they are giving out is going to the person requesting it. The best way to verify that is by using the Public Service Card."

I'm still waiting for any answer from you as to why you think the PSC is the best way to verify ID.

endacl

Mine arrived last week. Not sure why I need it. Only complaint is it looks a bit cr4p.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

. What exactly is the problem with them?

Here's one problem. We've never had a policy debate or public consultation that asked that exact question. So we're pushing ahead as a nation with implementing them without having had that exact discussion.

Here's another problem. We have no legislation to support the card being a mandatory requirement to get a driving licence. So public bodies are making up rules themselves, with no legal basis for those rules.

airuser wrote: »

Every country in Europe except Britain and N.Ireland has one

That's not true.

airuser wrote: »

one is obliged to carry it.

And that's not true.

gizmo555

gizmo555 wrote: »

Yes, really.

You claimed that the Dept "MUST be sure that the information they are giving out is going to the person requesting it. The best way to verify that is by using the Public Service Card."

I'm still waiting for any answer from you as to why you think the PSC is the best way to verify ID.

I’ve answered it already. If my answer doesn’t suit your agenda then that’s your problem.

BarryM

There is no "must" about it. In order to just get info on your contributions, surely? If it is not the person entitled, what is the consequence?

It is a typical skam to get you signed up to a "not obligatory" database.

The J Stands for Jay

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So we're spending €60m on a drinking card?

The PSC can't be used as ID, so it won't be possible to use it as a drinking card.

AndrewJRenko

McGaggs wrote: »

The PSC can't be used as ID, so it won't be possible to use it as a drinking card.

Ehem....

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Your-learner-permit/The-theory-test/

From 17 June 2017 any person sitting the Driver Theory Test will be required to present a valid Public Services Card at the Driver Theory Test Centre as proof of ID.

antoinolachtnai

The government intends to change the law to allow the PSC’s use as a general purpose identity card.

The J Stands for Jay

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The government intends to change the law to allow the PSC’s use as a general purpose identity card.

Until they do, the law currently does not allow it's use as ID. Financial institutions specifically list it as not being acceptable as proof of ID.

The J Stands for Jay

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Ehem....

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Your-learner-permit/The-theory-test/

What's this supposed to demonstrate? That the government want you to have one of their membership cards before you can use their services? The gym and the library have had a similar system in place for years. I still can use my gym card to open a bank account or board a flight to Kerry.

antoinolachtnai

McGaggs wrote: »

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The government intends to change the law to allow the PSC’s use as a general purpose identity card.

Until they do, the law currently does not allow it's use as ID. Financial institutions specifically list it as not being acceptable as proof of ID.

Garda already use it as a preferred form of ID even though it is not allowed.

The intent here is pretty clear.

AndrewJRenko

McGaggs wrote: »

What's this supposed to demonstrate?

It's supposed to demonstrate that your claim that "The PSC can't be used as ID" is untrue.

I saw an article earlier today about €2.5m spent by the Dept on a helpline for the PSC card that wasn't used. I can't find it now. Did anyone else see it?

The J Stands for Jay

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's supposed to demonstrate that your claim that "The PSC can't be used as ID" is untrue.

On this case, it's acting as proof that the government have previously verified your identity using a passport or driver's licence.

AndrewJRenko

McGaggs wrote: »

On this case, it's acting as proof that the government have previously verified your identity using a passport or driver's licence.

So it's used as ID then, right?

The J Stands for Jay

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So it's used as ID then, right?

Is the barcode they give you in Heathrow once they've established your identity used as ID?

AndrewJRenko

McGaggs wrote: »

Is the barcode they give you in Heathrow once they've established your identity used as ID?

It's a long time since I've been through Heathrow, so I can't really answer - but why are you avoiding my question.

The PSC card is used as ID when you go for the driver theory test. Are you still claiming that it is not used as ID?

SPDUB

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's supposed to demonstrate that your claim that "The PSC can't be used as ID" is untrue.

I saw an article earlier today about €2.5m spent by the Dept on a helpline for the PSC card that wasn't used. I can't find it now. Did anyone else see it?

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/25m-taxpayers-money-completely-wasted-11534459

According to the story it was an activation line for the cards even though they don't need it .

recedite

SPDUB wrote: »

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/25m-taxpayers-money-completely-wasted-11534459

According to the story it was an activation line for the cards even though they don't need it .

“The phone line took calls for approximately 1.385 million PSCs at a cost of €2.47million up until August 2016 when it was discontinued.
“The cost associated with this measure was not included in the original contract specification or costing for the Public Services Card project as the ODPC request was made subsequent to the specification of requirements.”

Who actually set this aspect up, and why?
It should be investigated for possible fraud.

Mountainsandh

I posted on the 17th (last week) when I registered, and have received my card today. 4 working days ! That's efficient.

It doesn't look anything special and for me it'll be a case of keeping it in the drawer with my passport etc... rather than using it for anything, but I'll have it for renewing my driving licence next year.

I'm a bit disappointed to see an expiry date of 2024, it's a bother to have to renew these things, I would have expected 10 years expiry date.

BarryM

I'l be interested in what happens when you renew your driving license. 
In my case I had a PSC, but I had to go through the whole palaver - photo, signature, etc. When I asked why my PSC would not provide the data I got a very short answer "this is the way we do it"

Sam Russell

BarryM wrote: »

I'l be interested in what happens when you renew your driving license. 
In my case I had a PSC, but I had to go through the whole palaver - photo, signature, etc. When I asked why my PSC would not provide the data I got a very short answer "this is the way we do it"

There you have it.

The PSC is at the beginning of a tightening of ID certification. It will be rolled out gradually (afaik) with it beginning to be required for more Gov business. The DL is recent and has its own system, run by a contractor, and cannot be changed until the current contract expires.

It's a bit like the way Eircode is slowly being implemented across (some) Gov depts.

BarryM

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]The department replied:[/font]
[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]“On a fortnightly basis data on the Single Customer View system is deleted and recollected from the data providers.”[/font]

[font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][font=Georgia, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]There is no archive or audit trail of previous updates.[/font]
[/font]

From here -
http://www.thejournal.ie/single-customer-view-deasp-3727634-Dec2017/?utm_source=shortlink
In response to a request for information on who had accessed and/or made changes to their data....
Apparently the Data Protection Commissioner has made several requests to the Dept.....
Barry

Phat Dick

isn't the public services card a typically Irish stupid card ? one can't use it to open a bank account or buy a bottle of wine and the government make it mandatory for pointless things like sitting a driver theory test

Phat Dick

isn't the public services card a typically Irish stupid card ? one can't use it to open a bank account or buy a bottle of wine and the government make it mandatory for pointless things like sitting a driver theory test

Sam Russell

Phat Dick wrote: »

isn't the public services card a typically Irish stupid card ? one can't use it to open a bank account or buy a bottle of wine and the government make it mandatory for pointless things like sitting a driver theory test

I think at the present time, the PSC should be looked on as a Government Identity Card, not a National Identity Card. It is used by the Gov - or at least part of it - as a way of identifying people and making administration more streamlined.

As time goes on, I suspect it will morph into a National ID card, but would it not have been better if they a) started off with that as their intention, and b) incorporated many features of the CC sized passport into it?

By the way, I have no link in anyway to the PSC.

Phat Dick

At the same time they introduced the money racket of a passport card which costs 35€ but expires after 5 years

Sam Russell

Phat Dick wrote: »

At the same time they introduced the money racket of a passport card which costs 35€ but expires after 5 years

The Public Service Card has a unit cost of €30 (that apparently is how much the Gov pays the contractor) and is much cheaper to produce than the CC Passport, and it has much less security features. I think €35 for the passport is cheap, assuming we should bear the cost of it - but that is another issue.

How much is a driving licence?

Jim2007

Phat Dick wrote: »

At the same time they introduced the money racket of a passport card which costs 35€ but expires after 5 years

Nonsense, it is not a racket. If you don't need it you don't have to get it. On the other hand if you happen to live in the Schengen area, it is much more convenient that having to carry a passport.

RustyNut

Worth a read.

Mission creep
The latest formal government suggestion for PSC mission creep is to force social media companies such as Facebook to require its use when someone creates an account.

So possibly restricted internet access if you choose not to get your, not compulsory, but mandatory PSC card.

Hotblack Desiato

Poor article.

Some ridiculous idea from some gobshite TD, as if that'll ever happen. Throw in India (famed for its corruption) China (police state), and stir :rolleyes:

But yeah someone might 'hack' a piece of plastic :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The Revenue and Social Welfare databases have been around for at least 40 years at this stage.

Sierra Oscar

RustyNut wrote: »

Worth a read.



So possibly restricted internet access if you choose not to get your, not compulsory, but mandatory PSC card.

Jim Daly's comments in no way reflect Government policy. This is fairly cheap and selective commentary from the Irish Times, feeding into their series of scaremongering articles on the Public Services Card.

Also, why are they comparing us to an authoritarian regime such as China? Come on like. :rolleyes:

BarryM

Yeah, a bit waffly. However, some elements of truth. Given the sort of crap we have already had from the guards, logins to euromillions winners social welfare a/c, etc., would anyone trust the gov to look after your data?

Check out McGarrs blog.

AndrewJRenko

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Jim Daly's comments in no way reflect Government policy. This is fairly cheap and selective commentary from the Irish Times, feeding into their series of scaremongering articles on the Public Services Card.

Also, why are they comparing us to an authoritarian regime such as China? Come on like. :rolleyes:

The problem is that there is no Government policy. There is no policy about how/where the PSC card will be used. There is no law allowing RSA and other public bodies to make it mandatory, but they've done this.

You're correct to say that Daly's comments are ridiculous, but the public will have no trust in the PSC structure if things continue on the same basis as today, with no policy debate.

Inquitus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The problem is that there is no Government policy. There is no policy about how/where the PSC card will be used. There is no law allowing RSA and other public bodies to make it mandatory, but they've done this.

You're correct to say that Daly's comments are ridiculous, but the public will have no trust in the PSC structure if things continue on the same basis as today, with no policy debate.

I had to get one to get my first Irish passport just before xmas, don't need it for anything else, and only had to include a photocopy of the front of it with the App, so pretty sure its just a way to force people to get one.

Sam Russell

Inquitus wrote: »

I had to get one to get my first Irish passport just before xmas, don't need it for anything else, and only had to include a photocopy of the front of it with the App, so pretty sure its just a way to force people to get one.

You are probably correct. They wanted to get over 3 million by year end.

They need to bring in legislation to give the PSC a legal basis, and let it morph into a National ID card.

However, they need to increase the security of it and the data it leads to as it looks as if it is pretty puny attempt in my mind. Comparing the driving licence and the PSC I know which I would attempt to copy if I was so minded.

In fact, why was the DL not the basis for the PSC? What information is on the PSC that is not on the DL?

Inquitus

Sam Russell wrote: »

You are probably correct. They wanted to get over 3 million by year end.

They need to bring in legislation to give the PSC a legal basis, and let it morph into a National ID card.

However, they need to increase the security of it and the data it leads to as it looks as if it is pretty puny attempt in my mind. Comparing the driving licence and the PSC I know which I would attempt to copy if I was so minded.

In fact, why was the DL not the basis for the PSC? What information is on the PSC that is not on the DL?

Well the PSC does have a chip in it, not sure whats stored on that, but all it has written on it is your name, your picture and the expiry date (Front) and PPS Number and Card Number (Back)

iioklo

My mother got a letter from DSP asking for her concent so that they could obtain her personal details (photo, signature etc) from NDLS (Driving Licence) so that they could issue a Public Service Card without her having to attend a DSP office.

Sam Russell

Inquitus wrote: »

Well the PSC does have a chip in it, not sure whats stored on that, but all it has written on it is your name, your picture and the expiry date (Front) and PPS Number and Card Number (Back)

A medical card has a chip, but it says on the card that the chip contains the same info as is printed on the card.

The PSC carries a lot of information on the chip, not just the info printed on the card. Is the chip encrypted? Is it secure?

I doubt it.

Billgirlylegs

Driving license doesn’t have the PPS Number.
PSC Idoes not have date and place of birth.
Which is why it isn’t an ID card

donegal_man

Why is the only acceptable form of ID for driver theory test now a public service card? Surely an Irish passport which is acceptable the world over should also be accepted by a private company (Prometric) acting on behalf of a state agency (RSA).

splinter65

iioklo wrote: »

My mother got a letter from DSP asking for her concent so that they could obtain her personal details (photo, signature etc) from NDLS (Driving Licence) so that they could issue a Public Service Card without her having to attend a DSP office.

Isn’t that handy for her.

boardsuser1

iioklo wrote: »

My mother got a letter from DSP asking for her concent so that they could obtain her personal details (photo, signature etc) from NDLS (Driving Licence) so that they could issue a Public Service Card without her having to attend a DSP office.

This is new to me

I've held a plastic licence since 2013, but have a PSC since 2015, why couldn't they have done this with me if it's actually the case?

Or was the system too immature to handle it?

splinter65

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

This is new to me

I've held a plastic licence since 2013, but have a PSC since 2015, why couldn't they have done this with me if it's actually the case?

Or was the system too immature to handle it?

Ah it’s only a very recent development. Trying to make things easier for people.
If you have a PSC everything will be easier eventually .

Cork Truck Driver

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

This is new to me

I've held a plastic licence since 2013, but have a PSC since 2015, why couldn't they have done this with me if it's actually the case?

Or was the system too immature to handle it?

An earlier poster said the same. Maybe the system is growing up and learning to communicate with other departments.

AndrewJRenko

splinter65 wrote: »

Ah it’s only a very recent development. Trying to make things easier for people.
If you have a PSC everything will be easier eventually .

How exactly does a requirement to get an additional form of ID that I don't already have make things easier for me?

Deleted User wrote: »

An earlier poster said the same. Maybe the system is growing up and learning to communicate with other departments.

Maybe the system should have a policy discussion first about the benefits of this, and appropriate legislation to enable and manage this sharing of data first?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe the system should have a policy discussion first about the benefits of this, and appropriate legislation to enable and manage this sharing of data first?

God forbid you ever get ill or become unemployed. Then you’ll see the benefits of the card. It also doubles as free travel card for those entitled to one.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

God forbid you ever get ill or become unemployed. Then you’ll see the benefits of the card. It also doubles as free travel card for those entitled to one.

I've been through illness and unemployment, and survived both without having a card. Again, it would great if you could explain how the card actually benefits the consumer?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've been through illness and unemployment, and survived both without having a card. Again, it would great if you could explain how the card actually benefits the consumer?

Mainly speed of claims, unemployment or illness. Not everyone has a passport so can be used when opening bank accounts.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Mainly speed of claims, unemployment or illness. Not everyone has a passport so can be used when opening bank accounts.

Illness benefit is claimed by post - how does the PSC speed up these claims?