Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

airuser · 19-01-2018 10:57pm

I wouldn’t mind paying a nominal fee. If cover all. State and Banking any for all transactions where ID is needed.

We should have one card to cover all.

Jim2007 · 19-01-2018 11:07pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Ah God no not at all we wouldn’t want that at all at all at all! Ah willya stop! We don’t want to be telling people all our business now at all. Shtop for Gods sake.

Well first of all you are not telling people all your business, just your identity. And second if it works for over 400m people it will work here as well. And third the current nonsense adds costs and unnecessary hassle. Deal with it, it's the modern world.

Jim2007 · 19-01-2018 11:16pm

airuser wrote: »

I wouldn’t mind paying a nominal fee. If cover all. State and Banking any for all transactions where ID is needed.

We should have one card to cover all.

It is not just that, it is every single admin system in operation in the state. They all have to carry additional information about you in order to be able to identify you, so that in the end more people know more of your personal details than they actually need to know. So that the lack of such a card actually results in your personal details being peppered in systems all over the country that in other countries get by with a reliable unique id number plus in some cases your name.

SCOOP 64 · 19-01-2018 11:18pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Question.. is process identical in interview as through form in post, does the info provided go to the exact same place to be processed? And if so how can it be taking more than 2-5 days to receive the PSC ?

Me and my son have been waiting since 3rd January to receive psc and was interviewed, he needs one for his driver learner permit .

Seth Brundle · 19-01-2018 11:20pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well first of all you are not telling people all your business, just your identity. And second if it works for over 400m people it will work here as well. And third the current nonsense adds costs and unnecessary hassle. Deal with it, it's the modern world.

I don't think people would have an issue with a national ID card.
However when our government tell us it's not an ID card yet for all intents and purposes is one, people natural become sceptical. When we are not allowed debate and question it's purpose and usage and any future plans for it (or we get barely credible soundbites), people will naturally go against it.

RustyNut · 19-01-2018 11:42pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

You mean like the standard identity card issued by most EU states. In many cases these cards don't even have the address on them. But they are legally acceptable for banking etc.. and of course instead of a passport when travelling in Europe. It is also credit card size so you don't have to carry a bulky passport etc around.

As a Swiss citizen I have such a card and it is very handy as you don't need anything else to deal with banks, telephone companies, state services etc... It costs about €65 for ten years and you can renew it in your local community office in about 15 mins.

Are the ID cards compulsory / mandatory for dealing with the state? Is there anything that you must have the card for, ie getting a learner drivers permit or accessing state services that a passport won't cover?

AndrewJRenko · 19-01-2018 11:50pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

You mean like the standard identity card issued by most EU states.]

Jim2007 wrote: »

And second if it works for over 400m people it will work here as well.

Just for the record, national identify cards either don't exist or are optional in:

Germany
Netherlands
UK
Norway
Denmark
Switzerland
Sweden
Slovenia
Lithuania
Lichtenstien
Latvia
Hungary
Gibralter
France
Finland
Austria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

Seth Brundle · 19-01-2018 11:52pm

RustyNut wrote: »

Are the ID cards compulsory / mandatory for dealing with the state?

Apparently it is not compulsory but is mandatory!

Hotblack Desiato · 20-01-2018 2:28am

kbannon wrote: »

I don't think people would have an issue with a national ID card.
However when our government tell us it's not an ID card yet for all intents and purposes is one, people natural become sceptical. When we are not allowed debate and question it's purpose and usage and any future plans for it (or we get barely credible soundbites), people will naturally go against it.

The 'rebellious Irish' bolloxology is just so tiresome in the 21st century.

Seth Brundle · 20-01-2018 2:34am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The 'rebellious Irish' bolloxology is just so tiresome in the 21st century.

I don't follow. Who is rebelling?
Are people's concerns not legitimate?
Do you trust our governments? Our civil service? Would they never do anything underhanded?

RustyNut · 20-01-2018 2:34am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The 'rebellious Irish' bolloxology is just so tiresome in the 21st century.

You should probably go and have a lie down so.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-01-2018 2:28pm

kbannon wrote: »

Are people's concerns not legitimate?

None of the ones I've heard, no.

Do you trust our governments? Our civil service?

Yes. The people who give out about civil servants blah blah blah don't have a fcuking breeze.

Jim2007 · 20-01-2018 3:21pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just for the record, national identify cards either don't exist or are optional

And the only alternative to the ID card is a passport, which has the same plus a little more information. Without this banks etc will not deal with you in any case so it is not really optional. If you are in the Schengen area you need to carry one of the two in any case.

Jim2007 · 20-01-2018 3:28pm

kbannon wrote: »

I don't follow. Who is rebelling?
Are people's concerns not legitimate?
Do you trust our governments? Our civil service? Would they never do anything underhanded?

They already have all the information and more than they would need to know in other countries, so it is way to late to close that stable door! In fact a proper reliable national id number would make it possible to actually reduce the amount of information they hold on you, not the other way around.

Jim2007 · 20-01-2018 3:34pm

RustyNut wrote: »

Are the ID cards compulsory / mandatory for dealing with the state? Is there anything that you must have the card for, ie getting a learner drivers permit or accessing state services that a passport won't cover?

In all cases where you need to identify yourself, state or otherwise, the only document that must be accepted is a passport or ID cards, all other forms of ID are at the discussion of the person you are showing it to.

The ID card is cheaper than a passport and doubles as a passport for travel in Europe, so most people don’t bother to get a passport.

splinter65 · 20-01-2018 3:55pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well first of all you are not telling people all your business, just your identity. And second if it works for over 400m people it will work here as well. And third the current nonsense adds costs and unnecessary hassle. Deal with it, it's the modern world.

I used to be good at being sarcastic but obviously I’ve lost my touch.
I still think it’s pretty obvious in this post that I am being sarky? No?

AndrewJRenko · 20-01-2018 4:22pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And the only alternative to the ID card is a passport, which has the same plus a little more information. Without this banks etc will not deal with you in any case so it is not really optional. If you are in the Schengen area you need to carry one of the two in any case.

But we have passports - so why do we need a new card?

BorneTobyWilde · 20-01-2018 4:25pm

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Me and my son have been waiting since 3rd January to receive psc and was interviewed, he needs one for his driver learner permit .

Did you apply by form or by interview. I guess interview for son as he had no licence, what about you.
I'm trying to get a passport since last April .:mad:

BorneTobyWilde · 20-01-2018 4:28pm

How can one get a passport urgently if he is refused PSC over and over. Can I apply for a passport from UK?? I have family there..

20-01-2018 4:33pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

How can one get a passport urgently if he is refused PSC over and over. Can I apply for a passport from UK?? I have family there..

Could you clarify whether or not you had a face to face interview?

BorneTobyWilde · 20-01-2018 4:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you clarify whether or not you had a face to face interview?

Nope I did not. I got form in post, applied once never got it. I asked for another form, applied again and still no PSC. Rang yesterday and still saying yes we have it, we'll send it within two weeks. This is going on months and months now.

20-01-2018 4:37pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Nope I did not. I got form in post, applied once never got it. I asked for another form, applied again and still no PSC. Rang yesterday and still saying yes we have it, we'll send it within two weeks. This is going on months and months now.

Looks like you’re making progress so. The reason I asked was that it might have been resolved faster face to face.

BorneTobyWilde · 20-01-2018 4:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks like you’re making progress so. The reason I asked was that it might have been resolved faster face to face.

Might have to yet, that will be 3 applications in the system if I do that. I thought a passport could be obtained within 3 days when wanted urgently.

SCOOP 64 · 21-01-2018 5:06pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Did you apply by form or by interview. I guess interview for son as he had no licence, what about you.
I'm trying to get a passport since last April .:mad:

We were both interviewed , i didn't really need one but had to take my son in anyway as he wants to take driving lessons so also applied, funny but my one was more trouble, passport out of date, old driving licence with no photo,had other id with photos but wouldn't except but had birth cert,this was good enough,another problem proof of address for my son, he has no bills in his name as living at home, but took my prove if address instead,they said this should be ok, will have to wait and see, but still waiting!

BarryM · 27-01-2018 11:32am

Is this what we are supposed to think? Donegal case of a civil servant who passed on info....
"[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Delivering his judgment on Friday, Judge[/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif] [/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]John Aylmer[/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif] [/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]said he considered Lenihan’s actions to be in the mid range for such offences.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]He said there was a significant breach of trust and privacy of all citizens’ information held by the then Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs where Lenihan had worked.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]This resulted in an undermining of public confidence and that Lenihan’s sole motivation was personal gain.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]The judge said he had no option but to impose a custodial sentence because of the gravity of the offences and the fact that they took place over a prolonged period of time.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]It took years to discover it, the Data Commissioner charged three insurance companies, the guards said it was a difficult and complicated case, etc. He got 2 years with one suspended. [/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]If you are wondering about the security surrounding you PS card, this won't reassure you. Years ago, when the lady in Limerick won the Euromillions, there were a large number of logins to her soc sec account, one person was allowed to resign..... I don't think much has changed.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]I am not opposed to a system to improve the efficiency of the was administration is organised, but I have not much confidence that the data necessary will be looked after properly. [/font]

jim salter · 27-01-2018 11:50am

Has anyone applied for the drivers theory test without the PSC?

As I read it they will not accept any other form of ID apart from the PSC....does that then make the PSC an ID card?

Jim2007 · 27-01-2018 11:55am

BarryM wrote: »

Is this what we are supposed to think? Donegal case of a civil servant who passed on info....
"[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Delivering his judgment on Friday, Judge[/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif] [/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]John Aylmer[/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif] [/font][font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]said he considered Lenihan’s actions to be in the mid range for such offences.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]He said there was a significant breach of trust and privacy of all citizens’ information held by the then Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs where Lenihan had worked.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]This resulted in an undermining of public confidence and that Lenihan’s sole motivation was personal gain.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]The judge said he had no option but to impose a custodial sentence because of the gravity of the offences and the fact that they took place over a prolonged period of time.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]It took years to discover it, the Data Commissioner charged three insurance companies, the guards said it was a difficult and complicated case, etc. He got 2 years with one suspended. [/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]If you are wondering about the security surrounding you PS card, this won't reassure you. Years ago, when the lady in Limerick won the Euromillions, there were a large number of logins to her soc sec account, one person was allowed to resign..... I don't think much has changed.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]I am not opposed to a system to improve the efficiency of the was administration is organised, but I have not much confidence that the data necessary will be looked after properly. [/font]

Well as I have already pointed out, you are way to late to shut that gate because they already have your data in any case. So it is a pointless argument and certainly not a reason to hold up progress.

And the reality is that the system does work, the guy was caught and will be punished. And that is as much as can be done at this stage.

BorneTobyWilde · 27-01-2018 12:11pm

jim salter wrote: »

Has anyone applied for the drivers theory test without the PSC?

As I read it they will not accept any other form of ID apart from the PSC....does that then make the PSC an ID card?

It will be forced on you, either that or don't ever drive. What a CuuntTry

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2018 12:16pm

For the PSC to actually serve its purpose, all social welfare payments should be put on the card and it should work like a debit card which disallows certain purchases (cigarettes being a prime example).

BorneTobyWilde · 27-01-2018 12:29pm

I think I will have to go live with family in uk for a few months and apply for a passport from there. What a Cuuntry

27-01-2018 12:32pm

It works. Would she have been caught without the PSC? https://www.herald.ie/news/cleaner-60-stole-140k-in-13year-welfare-fraud-36524061.html

Jim2007 · 27-01-2018 12:36pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

It will be forced on you, either that or don't ever drive. What a CuuntTry

And proper order! It is well time for Ireland to have an ID system like every other modern country. And put a stop to all this nonsense of every system in the country holding unnecessary personal data on people in order to identify them. The more your personal data is propagated into unknown systems the more likely it is that it will be disclosed or stolen. So any time you need to provide all this extra data, you should be concerned, very concerned.

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2018 12:37pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And proper order! It is well time for Ireland to have an ID system like every other modern country. And put a stop to all this nonsense of every system in the country holding unnecessary personal data on people in order to identify them. The more your personal data is propagated into unknown systems the more likely it is that it will be disclosed or stolen. So any time you need to provide all this extra data, you should be concerned, very concerned.

I agree with an ID card, so let's just do that. None of this PSC nonsense

Jim2007 · 27-01-2018 12:40pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

For the PSC to actually serve its purpose, all social welfare payments should be put on the card and it should work like a debit card which disallows certain purchases (cigarettes being a prime example).

Absolutely not. The card should hold the minimum amount of information necessary to identify you and nothing else. The idea is that it should be the missing link in the data already held by an organization and no more. That is how you protect people’s privacy.

27-01-2018 12:41pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I think I will have to go live with family in uk for a few months and apply for a passport from there. What a Cuuntry

Still no PS Card? In order to get a British passport at least one of your parents have to be a British citizen at the time of your birth.

Sam Russell · 27-01-2018 12:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Still no PS Card? In order to get a British passport at least one of your parents have to be a British citizen at the time of your birth.

I think (s)he means to apply for an Irish passport from the Irish Embassy.

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2018 12:45pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Absolutely not. The card should hold the minimum amount of information necessary to identify you and nothing else. The idea is that it should be the missing link in the data already held by an organization and no more. That is how you protect people’s privacy.

I think you take my point incorrectly. Either we should go one way or the other; the PSC is nonsense in its current guise.

Jim2007 · 27-01-2018 12:46pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I agree with an ID card, so let's just do that. None of this PSC nonsense

But you would still have to have some kind of similar process at the start, whatever you want to call it.

Sam Russell · 27-01-2018 12:47pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

But you would still have to have some kind of similar process at the start, whatever you want to call it.

But it needs legislative backing - clearly identifying what info is on the card and who can use it.

FreudianSlippers · 27-01-2018 12:48pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

But you would still have to have some kind of similar process at the start, whatever you want to call it.

From a data protection and various other viewpoints, it would be structured significantly differently. This PSC is useless unless you're on the dole, so let's have it be a dole card.

Otherwise, why do I need it to get a new passport or driving licence? Is it an ID card? What is the PSC?!

It seems to somehow be both nothing and everything.

27-01-2018 12:53pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

From a data protection and various other viewpoints, it would be structured significantly differently. This PSC is useless unless you're on the dole, so let's have it be a dole card.

Otherwise, why do I need it to get a new passport or driving licence? Is it an ID card? What is the PSC?!

It seems to somehow be both nothing and everything.

There are many more welfare payments than the dole. Pensioners need them, as do people with a disability. It also has Free Travel included.

Jim2007 · 27-01-2018 1:05pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I think I will have to go live with family in uk for a few months and apply for a passport from there. What a Cuuntry

Sorry but this does not make any since, oh the one hand you are asking about getting a passport urgently and now you’re willing to go live in the UK for a few months to obtain it....

As someone who signs passport applications for people applying for passports to an Irish embassy I can tell you that I take great care in what I sign as required by law. And that means you either show me a current or expired Irish passport or a valid passport from another state or failing that certain EU drivers licenses as listed on the EU website and evidence of residency - such as a resident permit or bank statements going back several years.

Issuing a passport is a serious matter and I doubt you’ll find it easier outside the country.

BorneTobyWilde · 27-01-2018 1:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think (s)he means to apply for an Irish passport from the Irish Embassy.

That I can do right? If I was staying in UK ?
Amazing lengths to go to , but in another few months it will be a year trying to get my passport.

BorneTobyWilde · 27-01-2018 1:48pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Sorry but this does not make any since, oh the one hand you are asking about getting a passport urgently and now you’re willing to go live in the UK for a few months to obtain it....

As someone who signs passport applications for people applying for passports to an Irish embassy I can tell you that I take great care in what I sign as required by law. And that means you either show me a current or expired Irish passport or a valid passport from another state or failing that certain EU drivers licenses as listed on the EU website and evidence of residency - such as a resident permit or bank statements going back several years.

Issuing a passport is a serious matter and I doubt you’ll find it easier outside the country.

I have Irish Licence. On website it simple says request form through an online form on website, passport application is sent out to the UK address. Fill in, have it witnessed by Doctor, Dentist, Police, Solicitor, priest, teacher, accountant , Nurse, Pharmacy so on. Send back to Embassy and passport is sent out.

AndrewJRenko · 27-01-2018 2:00pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

For the PSC to actually serve its purpose, all social welfare payments should be put on the card and it should work like a debit card which disallows certain purchases (cigarettes being a prime example).

And the same approach for child benefit payments - only kids clothes or other necessities should be allowed, right?

27-01-2018 2:50pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I have Irish Licence. On website it simple says request form through an online form on website, passport application is sent out to the UK address. Fill in, have it witnessed by Doctor, Dentist, Police, Solicitor, priest, teacher, accountant , Nurse, Pharmacy so on. Send back to Embassy and passport is sent out.

Or, you could ring your local Department of Social Protection and make an appointment for your PS Card.

jim salter · 27-01-2018 3:37pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

And proper order! It is well time for Ireland to have an ID system like every other modern country. And put a stop to all this nonsense of every system in the country holding unnecessary personal data on people in order to identify them. The more your personal data is propagated into unknown systems the more likely it is that it will be disclosed or stolen. So any time you need to provide all this extra data, you should be concerned, very concerned.

I have no problem with an ID card.

I do however have a problem with a government who are attempting to hoodwink the general public. The cannot or will not reveal what organisations will have access to the data they hold. Apparently they have chosen a company in India to store the data yet that company is under investigation by the Indian authorities for data breaches - Aadhaar system and another in Nov '17.

If this was about cutting down welfare 'fraud' - well and good, but it is not.

jim salter · 27-01-2018 3:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Still no PS Card? In order to get a British passport at least one of your parents have to be a British citizen at the time of your birth.

You may want to read the post again..... :rolleyes:

jim salter · 27-01-2018 3:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There are many more welfare payments than the dole. Pensioners need them, as do people with a disability. It also has Free Travel included.

And how does the drivers license fall under any category that would deem it an 'essential' public service..

(don't bother answering - rhetorical question)

BorneTobyWilde · 27-01-2018 3:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Or, you could ring your local Department of Social Protection and make an appointment for your PS Card.

I could, but the fact I have rang countless times about my applied for PSC and get the answer '' we have it, being processed, will have it in two weeks'' makes me wonder what benefit it will be to apply again, for the 3rd time.
Will it make a difference, 3rd time lucky maybe. I dunno.

Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

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