Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

BorneTobyWilde

I finally got my card. And I did not go do an interview, was issued using drivers licence info they already had, so ironic now that they are saying a drivers licence is not a safe form of ID.

Varik

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I finally got my card. And I did not go do an interview, was issued using drivers licence info they already had, so ironic now that they are saying a drivers licence is not a safe form of ID.

Including picture?

BorneTobyWilde

Varik wrote: »

Including picture?

Yes

Varik

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Yes

Grand, I look great in that picture.

Apogee

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

But it doesn't say that.If you are expecting comprehensive and accurate reporting on an issue in The Journal, you're looking in the wrong place.

That quote appears to have originated on the NDLS site.

NDSL wrote:

From Monday 9 April 2018 you will need a Public Services Card to apply for a driving licence or learner permit. This change will simplify and increase the security of the application process, help combat fraud and keep unlicensed drivers off our roads. The Public Services Card will now be the only form of identity accepted at NDLS centres when applying for the first time or renewing your driving licence or learner permit. It will be used to verify your name, PPS number, address and identity.

https://www.ndls.ie/identity-validation/introduction-of-public-services-card.html

There was another sitting of the Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection yesterday, with more presentations on the PSC by Dept officials. Some clarity on the total number of cards issued to date, and safeguards around privacy issues, data sharing etc.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=37921&&CatID=127

Hotblack Desiato

Renewing the old licences though, or renewing one of the NDLS credit card licences? Big difference.

Gorteen

Has everyone been given the PS card? I haven't received anything about it (not that I'm in any rush!)

Sam Russell

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Renewing the old licences though, or renewing one of the NDLS credit card licences? Big difference.

The NDLS was only set up in Sept 2013 so any of their licences would not be due for replacement as most are for a 10 validity. Those issued to over 70 year olds, or approaching 70, would be for a 3 or 1 year validity.

Those over 70 would have a PSC since they were 66 years old as it is now the bus pass, so the question does not arise for them.

In the case of replacement licences, where the original validity is maintained then the question does arise, but they would not be widespread.

BonnieSituation

Sam Russell wrote: »

The NDLS was only set up in Sept 2013 so any of their licences would not be due for replacement as most are for a 10 validity. Those issued to over 70 year olds, or approaching 70, would be for a 3 or 1 year validity.

Those over 70 would have a PSC since they were 66 years old as it is now the bus pass, so the question does not arise for them.

In the case of replacement licences, where the original validity is maintained then the question does arise, but they would not be widespread.

My 10-year licence validity runs out on March 30 and I have a card licence. Replaced that paper rag before moving to Canada (incidentally 4 years ago, today).

I'd say there are a few of us out there with that scenario playing out.

Sam Russell

BonnieSituation wrote: »

My 10-year licence validity runs out on March 30 and I have a card licence. Replaced that paper rag before moving to Canada (incidentally 4 years ago, today).

I'd say there are a few of us out there with that scenario playing out.

I would imagine that you will need a PSC, but ask them. I am no expert in this.

Both the NDLS licence requires a face to face visit, as does the PSC.

Bits_n_Bobs

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would imagine that you will need a PSC, but ask them. I am no expert in this.

Both the NDLS licence requires a face to face visit, as does the PSC.

Bizarrely the NDLS will not accept the PSC as a valid form of ID but insist on a passport.

Bits_n_Bobs

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Bizarrely the NDLS will not accept the PSC as a valid form of ID but insist on a passport.

Not according to their website. “Current Public Services Card” https://www.ndls.ie/identity-validation.html#photographic-i-d

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Not according to their website. “Current Public Services Card” https://www.ndls.ie/identity-validation.html#photographic-i-d

Except you need something else to verify your date of birth, such as a passport.

BonnieSituation

Thankfully, as I don't have a tinfoil hat, I got a PSC years back and last year got it SAFE2 updated and linked.

Just pointing out that my experience where I'll have an NDLS issued licence soon up for renewal.

Will report back.

Interestingly the most opaque part is finding out of I need a sight report.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Except you need something else to verify your date of birth, such as a passport.

Or birth certificate.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Or birth certificate.

Indeed.

Darwin

Gorteen wrote: »

Has everyone been given the PS card? I haven't received anything about it (not that I'm in any rush!)

No, neither my wife nor I were ever contacted to be issued a PSC as we have no reason to have anything to do with welfare services. Now I see I must have a PSC to get my drivers license renewed which is up soon. I have a passport - what the hell is wrong with that as a form of ID? They really are going out of their way to make life difficult for people :mad:

Sam Russell

I notice that the ads for requiring the PSC for driving licences says that it contains address information. Is that true?

Darwin

Darwin wrote: »

No, neither my wife nor I were ever contacted to be issued a PSC as we have no reason to have anything to do with welfare services. Now I see I must have a PSC to get my drivers license renewed which is up soon. I have a passport - what the hell is wrong with that as a form of ID? They really are going out of their way to make life difficult for people :mad:

I got one as I wanted to check my PRSI history was correct.

0byme75341jo28

Darwin wrote: »

No, neither my wife nor I were ever contacted to be issued a PSC as we have no reason to have anything to do with welfare services. Now I see I must have a PSC to get my drivers license renewed which is up soon. I have a passport - what the hell is wrong with that as a form of ID? They really are going out of their way to make life difficult for people :mad:

It's data collection, nothing more.

We should all be very concerned about this. Tell me what you want but I don't think it's a good idea to have over half our country's faces in a database, this figure will likely eventually be approaching 100% of the population. Hopefully the Data Protection Commissioner sees sense and puts an end to this nonsense. It's role in flagging welfare fraud is not worth the risks it presents to so many innocent people.

BonnieSituation

Bradley Refined Helicopter wrote: »

It's data collection, nothing more.

We should all be very concerned about this. Tell me what you want but I don't think it's a good idea to have over half our country's faces in a database, this figure will likely eventually be approaching 100% of the population. Hopefully the Data Protection Commissioner sees sense and puts an end to this nonsense. It's role in flagging welfare fraud is not worth the risks it presents to so many innocent people.

What are the risks to us innocent people?

Nollog

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is only a small step to make it so you need it for a bank account, etc. Then it becomes essential - but not mandatory - which is a question of semantics.

My credit union wanted my PSC to register for online banking, refused my ppsn, other bank letter for address etc.

corks finest

/\/ollog wrote: »

My credit union wanted my PSC to register for online banking, refused my ppsn, other bank letter for address etc.

Sorry but it's needed,not saying this willy nilly,and I used live in the 6 counties ,and was republican for 30 plus years,and understand fully ref big brother,no bigger brother than the Brits,but the free state is wide open to anyone with any agenda

Nollog

corks finest wrote: »

Sorry but it's needed,not saying this willy nilly,and I used live in the 6 counties ,and was republican for 30 plus years,and understand fully ref big brother,no bigger brother than the Brits,but the free state is wide open to anyone with any agenda

I don't mind having ID. I just found it weird to want the card which I left at home, 8 hour away by bus when I had the number my passport and a bank letter with my address on it.

BonnieSituation

/\/ollog wrote: »

I don't mind having ID. I just found it weird to want the card which I left at home, 8 hour away by bus when I had the number my passport and a bank letter with my address on it.

I never understand why people don't bring more documentation than they need knowing full well how this place works sometimes.

Also 8 hours away by bus? That's an interesting common bond for that credit union. :P

Nollog

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I never understand why people don't bring more documentation than they need knowing full well how this place works sometimes.

Also 8 hours away by bus? That's an interesting common bond for that credit union. :P

I moved 2 years ago. From co Tipperary to Donegal.

I've never needed the card for anything so I hadn't the foggiest they might need it. I definitely brought more ID than I thought they'd need given my parents usually deal with them for me no bother, I was just wrong.

Sam Russell

/\/ollog wrote: »

My credit union wanted my PSC to register for online banking, refused my ppsn, other bank letter for address etc.

I was into my bank and they wanted a passport and would not take the combination of DL and PSC. Both photo ID, and DL had my address.

There is no consistency.

Seth Brundle

According to the Irish Times, the RSA have done a U turn and made this optional...
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/public-services-card-to-obtain-driving-licence-now-voluntary-1.3442172

SPDUB

Given RTE's story yesterday about the Central Bank not accepting the PSC as a valid form of identity

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2018/0417/955200-public-services-card/

Anyone know what happened to this proposal

SPDUB wrote: »

There is currently a restriction that it can't be used by an unspecified body (basically Govt Departments ) and is actually an offence

They are planning to get rid of the restriction in the Social Welfare Bill 2017

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/900038915666710528

BarryM

https://thestory.ie/2018/05/15/road-safety-authority-abandons-plans-to-demand-public-services-card-for-driving-licences-over-concerns-about-its-legality/

Confirming the RSA item above, not sure if it is the same in reality but the acid is dripping off the messages.

Bloody typical, left hand and right hand......

How does GDPR affect all this? Will they need to write to all of us to tell us of any changes??

Nitrogan

They should scrap the PSC card and just bring in a national ID card which is compulsorily recognised as valid ID in the state for all services and legal contracts.

There'll be a significant cost to it but the saving on time and hassle for everyone will be far greater. It will also shut down some of the whinging about welfare fraud etc.

If anyone wants to live off the grid they can go jumping through the bureaucratic hoops, up to them. For those not wearing a tin hat or hiding a criminal lifestyle there should be an easier way to go about life.

Sam Russell

Nitrogan wrote: »

They should scrap the PSC card and just bring in a national ID card which is compulsorily recognised as valid ID in the state for all services and legal contracts.

There'll be a significant cost to it but the saving on time and hassle for everyone will be far greater. It will also shut down some of the whinging about welfare fraud etc.

If anyone wants to live off the grid they can go jumping through the bureaucratic hoops, up to them. For those not wearing a tin hat or hiding a criminal lifestyle there should be an easier way to go about life.

A national ID card would be a good step, but would only Irish citizens be able to get one? We already have a credit card sized passport, would that not be an national ID card.

It costs about €30 to issue a PSC, and a passport card is charged out at €35.

If they insisted that everyone should get the Passport card, then it would be used in place of the PSC for many ID purposes. The passport card has many more security features than the PSC.

I think that following Brexit, a national ID will become essential, both here and in the UK. Brexiteers will be opposed absolutely and resolutely to one though.

vg88

Sam Russell wrote: »

A national ID card would be a good step, but would only Irish citizens be able to get one? We already have a credit card sized passport, would that not be an national ID card.

It costs about €30 to issue a PSC, and a passport card is charged out at €35.

If they insisted that everyone should get the Passport card, then it would be used in place of the PSC for many ID purposes. The passport card has many more security features than the PSC.

I think that following Brexit, a national ID will become essential, both here and in the UK. Brexiteers will be opposed absolutely and resolutely to one though.

Having a national ID sounds good, but in reality it comes with rules.

When I lived in the Czech Republic, Czechs had their ID with figure prints and facial scan (very secure). But if the police stopped you (randomly or due to something) officially you had to produce a national ID (or passport) and if you had nothing they would bring you to the police station 'officially' to see who you are.

IMO it's a slippery road where you can be in trouble for not having an ID. I don't accept the idea if I haven't done something wrong what have I got to hide, more of giving up personal liberty is a big no no imo.

Jim2007

moloner4 wrote: »

Having a national ID sounds good, but in reality it comes with rules.

When I lived in the Czech Republic, Czechs had their ID with figure prints and facial scan (very secure). But if the police stopped you (randomly or due to something) officially you had to produce a national ID (or passport) and if you had nothing they would bring you to the police station 'officially' to see who you are.

And proper order, there is absolutely no reason what so ever that you should not be able to identify yourself to the police and in fact since you were in the Schengen area you are required to be able to identify yourself and justify your right to be in the Schengen area in a case. 450m people seem to be able to use it just fine, no reason for an Irish exception.

Sam Russell

Jim2007 wrote: »

And proper order, there is absolutely no reason what so ever that you should not be able to identify yourself to the police and in fact since you were in the Schengen area you are required to be able to identify yourself and justify your right to be in the Schengen area in a case. 450m people seem to be able to use it just fine, no reason for an Irish exception.

My sister lives near Geneva, close to the French border. She says that before Schengen they had a lot of crime coming from the French side of the border. Since Schengen that has more or less stopped and there is much less crime.

I think that now there is good reason to introduce ID cards, and for people to identify themselves to authority.

Now, the question of civil liberty arises, but security also needs to be addressed. The rise in random acts of terrorism as has been seen in France, UK, Belgium, Germany, Spain, Sweden, etc means this is a problem that knows no boundaries. The ID card will not eradicate the problem, but it will make it easier to track or trace people who might be involved, and perhaps identify cells of would be terrorists.

Schengen has proved to be quite robust. We should join. We should also introduce an official ID card system.

Nitrogan

If you trust the Gardai and our legal system there should be no problem identifying yourself.

I've been to places where I definitely would not like the local authorities to have my personal information on a card. If there are people who feel that way here then they should be free to continue as is with all the inconvenience it entails.

I think a national ID should definitely be compulsory for anyone looking to access public funds though.

AndrewJRenko

Nitrogan wrote: »

If you trust the Gardai

It's not a great week to be making that argument;

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0518/964312-disclosures-tribunal/

Nitrogan

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's not a great week to be making that argument;

Do you trust the Gardai?

I do, it feels very different compared to places where the police are armed and aggressive, so low paid they're ambivalent or so institutionally corrupt that you need to keep a bribe with you at all times. That’s a lot of places.

AndrewJRenko

Nitrogan wrote: »

Do you trust the Gardai?

I do, it feels very different compared to places where the police are armed and aggressive, so low paid they're ambivalent or so institutionally corrupt that you need to keep a bribe with you at all times. That’s a lot of places.

In the week that there were major conflicts of evidence between the former Commissioner and a serving Supt and a large number of other respected people, and in the month where an amazingly casual attitude to mobile devices was exposed (raising issues of both theft and data security), it would be a stretch to say I have great trust in the Gardai at present.

BarryM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Schengen has proved to be quite robust. We should join. We should also introduce an official ID card system.

Well, ask yourself why we are not in Schengen. My understanding is we dodged it 'cos UK isn't in it. Too complicated because of our common travel area. So, post Brexit what will happen??

I don't recall seeing any discussion/decision on the topic in the brexit discussions.

Billgirlylegs

Nitrogan wrote: »

They should scrap the PSC card and just bring in a national ID card which is compulsorily recognised as valid ID in the state for all services and legal contracts.

There'll be a significant cost to it but the saving on time and hassle for everyone will be far greater. It will also shut down some of the whinging about welfare fraud etc.

If anyone wants to live off the grid they can go jumping through the bureaucratic hoops, up to them. For those not wearing a tin hat or hiding a criminal lifestyle there should be an easier way to go about life.

I think not.
All your personal information in one place. Easy pickings for identity theft, fraud, tax evasion, terrorist financing. All real, all happening now. If nothing else, it costs you financially.

Pity about you if it is too much hassle to go to a real person and present your credentials. If it is easy for you, it is easy for the bad lads and girls

Hotblack Desiato

Nitrogan wrote: »

They should scrap the PSC card and just bring in a national ID card which is compulsorily recognised as valid ID in the state for all services and legal contracts.

Scrap the PSC and replace it with itself?