Public Service Card - ID card by stealth?

Gatling

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I can't remember the figures.

As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

Wasn't there a high millions figure released about the savings since they introduced anti fraud measures and PSC

RustyNut

blanch152 wrote: »

An ID tax?

Since when do you have to pay for one?

My bad, there is no charge. Even more reason to be suspicious.

What proof of identity do you need to produce to get one of these cards that you don't need to get a passport or driving licence?

Why can I not use a pasport or licence to identify myself to the government that issued them?

Turnipman

RustyNut wrote: »

Why can I not use a pasport or licence to identify myself to the government that issued them?

Because they've changed the requirements. Simple really.

Hotblack Desiato

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

Just to set the record straight. It was found that the majority of fraudulent social welfare claims were by Irish Nationals, including little old ladies in their 70's.
Non nationals were in the minority.

I was not referring to SW fraud, but insurance and bank accounts. I bolded these parts of the post I was replying to, to make that clear.

blanch152

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I didn't say anything about the reason given. People keep telling me that loads of people sign off when told to register for the card. I'm just asking how many people signed off? Why is that so hard to answer?

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentapril2017/

OK, there were 47,300 less people employed in April 2017 than April 2016. Can you tell me

(a) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that ensured they got a job?

(b) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that required an ID card to prevent fraud?

(c) does it really matter which because the reduction in numbers is a great outcome and it probably a mixture of both?

AndrewJRenko

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I can't remember the figures.

As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

I'm just a bit amazed about how 'everyone' knows that there were loads of people who signed off welfare when they were invited to get the PSC card, but no-one can quote an actual number or source an official report. If no-one has an actual number, how can we have any idea what 'loads' mean? Does it mean 10, or 100 or 100,000?

elperello

Do you need the PSC to claim Single Farm Payment or farm related grants?

AndrewJRenko

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentapril2017/

OK, there were 47,300 less people employed in April 2017 than April 2016. Can you tell me

(a) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that ensured they got a job?

(b) how many of these signed off because of Fine Gael government policies that required an ID card to prevent fraud?

(c) does it really matter which because the reduction in numbers is a great outcome and it probably a mixture of both?

I can't tell you anything about these numbers. They're not my numbers.

But why can't the Dept tell us that how many people signed off welfare within (for example) 2 months of being called to get their card, compared to the number of people who signed off welfare WITHOUT being called to get their card - or some other comparable measure of the effectiveness of the card as a deterrent to fraud?

How can anyone stand up and say it is deterring fraud unless you can quote some actual number to support this?

AndrewJRenko

elperello wrote: »

Do you need the PSC to claim Single Farm Payment or farm related grants?

Looks like it is heading that way;
http://egovstrategy.gov.ie/annex-b/

Dept. Agriculture, Food and the Marine Agfood.ie Support for individual access to the Agfood.ie set of services via MyGovID Sep-18

Hotblack Desiato

RustyNut wrote: »

My bad, there is no charge. Even more reason to be suspicious.

:rolleyes:

Some people will never be happy I suppose.

Sam Russell

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

Now that is interesting. When I got mine, they took the photo from my passport. So the reverse of the current (or soon to be current) situation. My wife was waiting ages for hers even though everything should have been OK. They appeared to have some problem with her first name not matching her name of her birth cert - but it was not a problem when she got her passport.

I think the PSC is going to be the 'prime' identity document for all government services into the future, and the security will continue to improve.

The current card cannot be an ID card as it stands but will form the basis of one when one is introduced.

SPDUB

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now that is interesting. When I got mine, they took the photo from my passport. .

Person I know didn't bother going to picture appointment but received card with photo taken from Passport

Found out afterwards they are supposed to ask your permission to do that

yenom

SPDUB wrote: »

Person I know didn't bother going to picture appointment but received card with photo taken from Passport

Found out afterwards they are supposed to ask your permission to do that

They don't do that anymore. It was done a few years ago as a trial. They want everyone in now as the card has a facial recognition system. It's to stop people having two PPS numbers or two licences or two dole claims.

AndrewJRenko

https://twitter.com/boucherhayes/status/901361874062716928

Jim2007

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://twitter.com/boucherhayes/status/901361874062716928

And now tell us why this could not possibly happen in an Ireland without it??? In case you missed it Irish health records have been found in a dump in the Philippines.

This is not an argument for not doing it, only a warning that it needs to be done right.

Jim2007

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current card cannot be an ID card as it stands but will form the basis of one when one is introduced.

Once there passport checks entering the UK/NI, a demand for a credit card sized ID will grow.

dr.fuzzenstein

Oh my god, I have to identify myself for receiving grants and services! What next? Pay for water?
The biggest outrage in the history of mankind!
:rolleyes:
People seem to imagine this sort of Big Brother machinery behind the state, something from the X-Files. I blame TV, sugary foods and the tuba.
But having to use an ESB bill as "proof" of address is perfectly alright. No worries, I can knock one up in 5 minutes on my laptop.

Phoebas

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I went in the other day to get one of these and the lady I met there told me that the passport office wouldn't renew her passport unless she had one of these Public Services Cards which was causing all sorts of problems for her as she is due to travel next Friday.

I don't have a PSC card and I renewed my passport last week without one, so it isn't mandatory.

They also asked me for my PPS number, so its probably the case that they want some piece of identifying information, but not necessarily the PSC card.

Sincere Straight Viper

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

I can't remember the figures.

As I also said, it was the Irish who were the main cheaters not the foreigners!

There is some info here. Seems some refused to get a card and had their payments withheld. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/welfare-recipients-see-benefits-cut-off-in-row-over-mandatory-cards-457782.html

AndrewJRenko

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is some info here. Seems some refused to get a card and had their payments withheld. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/welfare-recipients-see-benefits-cut-off-in-row-over-mandatory-cards-457782.html

Yeah, it looks like someone has done the impossible calculation and found that the 'large' savings are less than a million, for the 60 million project.

AndrewJRenko

Jim2007 wrote: »

This is not an argument for not doing it, only a warning that it needs to be done right.

It's certainly an argument for, if it has to be done, that adequate specialist resources are allocated - no sign of that happening

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yeah, it looks like someone has done the impossible calculation and found that the 'large' savings are less than a million, for the 60 million project.

"The savings made from those not complying with the card requirements are referred to in a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General last autumn which notes that €2.502m in total savings were recorded, including €1.7m relating to suspected fraudulent claims."

Long term it may weed out some more.

recedite

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yeah, it looks like someone has done the impossible calculation and found that the 'large' savings are less than a million, for the 60 million project.

article

The savings made from those not complying with the card requirements are referred to in a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General last autumn which notes that €2.502m in total savings were recorded, including €1.7m relating to suspected fraudulent claims

So €2.5M so far, but if that's an ongoing (and rising) saving of around €2.5M per year it won't be long paying for itself.

Anyway, the inflated cost of introducing something new is irrelevant to the merits or otherwise of the thing itself. We had ridiculously inflated costs with eircode and with Irish Water and Nama; due to all the buddies consultancies and dodgy tenders involved. But that is not to say that these projects are a bad thing in themselves. Just there is a lot of corruption in the political system which is just waiting to cream off the taxpayers money on any given project, or steer it in the direction of their own private profit.

Squatter

Jim2007 wrote: »

Once there passport checks entering the UK/NI, a demand for a credit card sized ID will grow.

It's already possible to purchase a credit card sized Irish passport!

Here's a life-sized photo of one!

Dublinstiofán

Sincere Straight Viper wrote: »

If it stops people getting passports under false pretences and stops people giving fraudulent details when registering cars, then I'm all for it.
Why we don't have a national ID like the rest of Europe (excluding UK) is beyond me.

I accept that however if your going to do something, why not do it right?! And it's nothing to do with registering cars. It's to do with applying for a new category license.

A) Why doesn't it say that a PCS is the only form of identification now accepted in the passport application forms at the moment in order to get a passport?

Why should this woman be the guinea pig, she was Irish and as entitled to an Irish passport as you or I! She had also paid €100 for the express passport service by post and the passport office insisted that when she gets her public services card (or a letter proving she has applied for one and it has been approved) that she travel to Dublin to apply for an emergency passport and pay the €220 fee as she didn't provide the required documentation in the first application. The application that doesn't currently say you need a PSC card to apply for a passport, what a joke!

Sam Russell

SPDUB wrote: »

Person I know didn't bother going to picture appointment but received card with photo taken from Passport

Found out afterwards they are supposed to ask your permission to do that

They did ask and I agreed. Picture looks washed out.

I think now that the PSC is now only given after a face to face interview and photo taken, it is intended to be a stronger ID than even a passport, but still not a national ID card (yet).

AndrewJRenko

recedite wrote: »

article So €2.5M so far, but if that's an ongoing (and rising) saving of around €2.5M per year it won't be long paying for itself.

It would be 24 years paying for itself, to be precise - is this really a good investment?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It would be 24 years paying for itself, to be precise - is this really a good investment?

Have you factored in future false claims? It'll be a deterrent.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you factored in future false claims? It'll be a deterrent.

I haven't factored in anything because they're not my figures - but you raise an interesting project governance question about the business case. Is there a business case for this project showing what are the projected costs and savings?

Sam Russell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I haven't factored in anything because they're not my figures - but you raise an interesting project governance question about the business case. Is there a business case for this project showing what are the projected costs and savings?

This is a government project to increase security as far as ID is concerned. As each change goes it notches up the level of security and so improves that security. It is not a once and for ever solution in itself but improves security wrt identity in a time of identity theft.

Alternatively, consider the project that the RSA is waging wrt the driving test. First they introduced the theory test. Great, anyone looking for a DL had to pass a simple multiple choice questionnaire. Then the made the actual driving test a bit harder, and have been making it harder bit by bit. It does nothing for all those who currently hold a licence, but it is a start. There are even people currently still driving now that never sat a test, but eventually these will all be out of the system. Meanwhile, deaths on the road are much lower than 10 years ago - hugely so. Is it a worthwhile project? Yes of course - a death on the road is a major tragedy.

You will see a reduction on ID related fraud against the Gov fall over the coming years - no question.

By the way, those that never sat a test got one when there were no motorways, roundabouts or traffic lights in most of the country.

ressem

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I haven't factored in anything because they're not my figures - but you raise an interesting project governance question about the business case. Is there a business case for this project showing what are the projected costs and savings?

According to
http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/annualreports/2015/report/en/Chapter10.pdf Page 14 10.54
The accounting officer apparently went on record to say that due to the lack of similar existing initiatives that a business case was not possible at inception time.

The case that raised the issue involved public servants having to go out and visit the lady at her home, look at her supporting documentation and someone there reluctantly make a yay/nay judgement on her identification.

They would greatly prefer that the claimant did the legwork to get themselves identified; that any errors would be someone else's problem.

She did the system a favour if she clarifies the requirement or lack of one. Our legal and political setup tends to leave a lot of things half-done requiring repeated, stalled trips back to the Dail to clean up knock-on-effects.

I don't have a PSC card and I renewed my passport last week without one, so it isn't mandatory.

Ditto despite it being well expired. According to the C&AG report, it's only first time passport applicants for whom it's necessary.

But yeah, it does look like it'll be expected ID in future, and if you want to do without, you'll have to bear the high costs and delays for being an unusual case that isn't part of a standard workflow.

At July 2016, DSP estimates savings in payments of €2.5 million since the introduction
of the PSC, based on the suspension of welfare payments in instances where an
individual invited to make a SAFE registration did not do so.

I would have believed that the major savings would be in public service work hours that would not be included in this figure, and removing delays to the public due to waiting for authentication.

SPDUB

ressem wrote: »

But yeah, it does look like it'll be expected ID in future, and if you want to do without, you'll have to bear the high costs and delays for being an unusual case that isn't part of a standard workflow.

Isn't that what people are complaining about though. that even if you are willing to bear extra costs and delays the Government won't let you .

Jim2007

SPDUB wrote: »

Isn't that what people are complaining about though. that even if you are willing to bear extra costs and delays the Government won't let you .

We can't build systems and procedures especially for this kind of nonsense, that is unless these people are willing to cover the entire costs of such environments, not just a toke couple of 1000s Euros.

SPDUB

Jim2007 wrote: »

We can't build systems and procedures especially for this kind of nonsense, that is unless these people are willing to cover the entire costs of such environments, not just a toke couple of 1000s Euros.

Except we wouldn't be building them from scratch given they are the systems that were already in place , for Dept of Social Welfare at most 4 years ago ,for RSA before 2 months ago

dev100

Sam Russell wrote:

By the way, those that never sat a test got one when there were no motorways, roundabouts or traffic lights in most of the country.

Only time you are allowed drive on the motor way is when you pass your driving test.

Sam Russell

dev100 wrote: »

Only time you are allowed drive on the motor way is when you pass your driving test.

No, you are allowed on to a motorway if you have a FULL driving licence. Initially there was no test. A test was introduced but many continued to drive on a provisional licence, and just renewed it. Then they limited the no of provisional licences to two, and then you had to take a test. Consequently there was a huge backlog for the test, so, at a stroke of a pen, all those waiting for a test got a full licence, even if they had never driven. Those people are still driving.

Passing the test is a recent innovation.

blanch152

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, you are allowed on to a motorway if you have a FULL driving licence. Initially there was no test. A test was introduced but many continued to drive on a provisional licence, and just renewed it. Then they limited the no of provisional licences to two, and then you had to take a test. Consequently there was a huge backlog for the test, so, at a stroke of a pen, all those waiting for a test got a full licence, even if they had never driven. Those people are still driving.

Passing the test is a recent innovation.

1979 if I recall correctly was the amnesty.

brownswiss

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, you are allowed on to a motorway if you have a FULL driving licence. Initially there was no test. A test was introduced but many continued to drive on a provisional licence, and just renewed it. Then they limited the no of provisional licences to two, and then you had to take a test. Consequently there was a huge backlog for the test, so, at a stroke of a pen, all those waiting for a test got a full licence, even if they had never driven. Those people are still driving.

Passing the test is a recent innovation.

... Yes 1964 is recent to some of us senior citizens ....
According to reports in the Irish Independent at the time, March 16, 1964 was the last day you could get a licence without taking a driving test. The paper reported that almost 5,000 applied for a licence to beat the deadline.

blanch152

brownswiss wrote: »

... Yes 1964 is recent to some of us senior citizens ....
According to reports in the Irish Independent at the time, March 16, 1964 was the last day you could get a licence without taking a driving test. The paper reported that almost 5,000 applied for a licence to beat the deadline.

I don't remember 1964 but I do remember the amnesty in 1979.

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/why-roads-are-safer-after-50-years-of-the-driving-test-30062291.html

Sam Russell

blanch152 wrote: »

1979 if I recall correctly was the amnesty.

brownswiss wrote: »

... Yes 1964 is recent to some of us senior citizens ....
According to reports in the Irish Independent at the time, March 16, 1964 was the last day you could get a licence without taking a driving test. The paper reported that almost 5,000 applied for a licence to beat the deadline.

So someone could be 56 or so and got an amnesty licence or 70 and got a no-test one. The no-test ones may have never driven a car, while the amnesty ones only had to have a provisional licence, maybe a second one. Many of these are still driving.

Plus many people have licences for categories they would now need a test, but they have never taken one.

That is the way things work, bit by bit. We will improve security, and currently the PSC is becoming the de-facto government standard for ID.

Jim2007

SPDUB wrote: »

Except we wouldn't be building them from scratch given they are the systems that were already in place , for Dept of Social Welfare at most 4 years ago ,for RSA before 2 months ago

We have to maintain that crap, replace it, buy new systems and so on.

Hotblack Desiato

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://twitter.com/boucherhayes/status/901361874062716928

The journo who lost any and all credibility by championing our friend Pamela for years in spite of the obvious evidence?

AndrewJRenko

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The journo who lost any and all credibility by championing our friend Pamela for years in spite of the obvious evidence?

Now there's a man who knows how to really hold onto a grudge...

elperello

If you are interested in the subject of this thread please take the time to listen to Simon McGarr Solicitor on Morning Ireland.

Click the link and go to about 4.50.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F21225476%5F48%5F29%2D08%2D2017%5F

In 7 minutes he demolishes the Government and Civil Service position.

yenom

What could someone actually do with this information? Claim your dole? They can't because your photo is on the card. There's not much in the chip. If you brought it to the tax office, they can't access your dole records with it etc.

uck51js9zml2yt

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm just a bit amazed about how 'everyone' knows that there were loads of people who signed off welfare when they were invited to get the PSC card, but no-one can quote an actual number or source an official report. If no-one has an actual number, how can we have any idea what 'loads' mean? Does it mean 10, or 100 or 100,000?

I'm sure figures were given at the presentation but I can't remember them. It's also nothing to do with my dept.
As for exact figures. As these people signed off and there is no requirement to give a reason or indeed present at a swo then exact reasons can't be given.
However as is said, if it barks like a dog, wags it's tail like a dog...etc

uck51js9zml2yt

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I accept that however if your going to do something, why not do it right?! And it's nothing to do with registering cars. It's to do with applying for a new category license.

A) Why doesn't it say that a PCS is the only form of identification now accepted in the passport application forms at the moment in order to get a passport?

Why should this woman be the guinea pig, she was Irish and as entitled to an Irish passport as you or I! She had also paid €100 for the express passport service by post and the passport office insisted that when she gets her public services card (or a letter proving she has applied for one and it has been approved) that she travel to Dublin to apply for an emergency passport and pay the €220 fee as she didn't provide the required documentation in the first application. The application that doesn't currently say you need a PSC card to apply for a passport, what a joke!

No idea on A or B.
It will be a requirement for registering a second hand vehicle in the name of the new owner.
Currently there are no checks. That there are vehicles falsely registered is scarey

Hotblack Desiato

elperello wrote: »

If you are interested in the subject of this thread please take the time to listen to Simon McGarr Solicitor on Morning Ireland.

RTE and Newstalk are full of self-appointed 'experts'.

jimmycrackcorm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It would be 24 years paying for itself, to be precise - is this really a good investment?

The figures don't take into account the benefits across government function of being able to tie in a single identity model for people. For example, what cost is associated with all the different IT systems on government departments dealing with peoples identities, with all the processes, time and effort behind them and the public servants tied up duplicating the work?

I don't know why there's even an argument about this card when people happily will hold a passport or a driving licence. But then we do have form for letting our imaginations run with it.

Until the day arrives when you need to carry ID with you in public, there's no such thing as a national ID card and if that day is arriving then that's the time to stand up and object.

Grab All Association

Story last week in the indo about an elderly woman who forgot to pay for an item. The security guard in Dunnes Stores took a photo of her PCS. The data protection need to investigate this immediately. She was under no obligation to show it to them nor did they have the right to take a copy of it

I'll link the story when I find it

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/elderly-woman-barred-from-all-dunnes-stores-after-mistakenly-leaving-without-paying-for-350-bottle-of-wine-36020022.html