the online poker craze

mezzz

anyone remember or take part in the online poker craze,

i played from 2009-2013, low stakes, broke even,

was just thinking about playing a tourney for old times sake,

i actually love the game but don;t have the patience to sit thru a tourney

lazybones32

Used love playing cards but hated poker. Trips was the best hand i ever got. Ever.

Al_Coholic

Used to play low stakes sit n go's and tournaments
Played for hours every evening and made a good amount of money but then lost interest and play maybe once or twice every few months.

dok_golf

playing now as i type

timthumbni

dok_golf wrote: »

playing now as i type

Do you play for much money? Or more for an interest?

B.A._Baracus

Started getting in to poker in 2009 too then played more times than I want to admit in 2010 and 2011.

For me, I tended to play in local boozers. But it can be bollocks as well. Easy to blow through money and there is a level of luck than what most people are willing to say. There still is skill involved but the way people talk about it there isn't any level of luck involved.

Jesus Wept

Love a good blue

Cookie_Monster

Used to work for Full Tilt in Cherrywood when the Feds decided to have a go at them for illegally offering online poker in the US, those were not fun times (they were before hand though, stupid excessive lunches / canteen / parties etc). Got out before the **** really got everywhere though.

gimli2112

played a good bit on Paddy Power, low stakes. Followed a similar pattern. Be winning, get drunk, get reckless, lose. Was good fun probably broke even overall. Played once in a casino around that time. About the third hand in got dealt AA, thought my head was going to explode.
Won around €100 (luck) that night but didn't really enjoy it.

BillyBobBS

Gambling is for mugs.

BillyBobBS

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Gambling is for mugs.

But we're talking about poker so it's not strictly gambling. Over the course of an evening, it effectively is but over a long period of time, some people have an edge over others.



Anyways, I lost a lot back when it was huge and learnt my lesson about how hard it is to pay of debt. My brother has played it professionally for a good few years now (live, not online) and has gone into a lot of detail with me about the math that is constantly being developed. He bases himself in various cities that have good games and I envy some parts of his lifestyle.

His coach and friend is a multi-millionaire from poker and a few of them work together with a server farm and special software to hone their GTO (Game Theory Optimal) approach. It's actually fascinating and far more in-depth than I ever would have thought it could be and it's far more complex than anything I learnt in university.


Since he taught me a lot of stuff, I lodge the odd twenty euro into Paddy Poker every two months or so and cash it out if I get it up a hundred. I don't really enjoy it but it's handy as a distraction if I'm doing some menial web-dev stuff.

sbsquarepants

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Gambling is for mugs.

You're thinking of coffee!

Roulette is gambling, poker is a game of skill.

It's a skill I don't have mind and have no desire to attain because I can't stand card games (except strip poker, but my interest there is not really in the cards:D)
But I would say - whatever about an actual poker tournament, which is extremely likely to be legit, anything played online is way too open to manipulation, someone much smarter than you has inevitably rigged it in their own favour. So in the case of online poker - it's not even gambling, it's just paying to play a game!

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

anything played online is way too open to manipulation, someone much smarter than you has inevitably rigged it in their own favour. So in the case of online poker - it's not even gambling, it's just paying to play a game!

Eh, absolutely not.

It happened once or twice years ago when someone on the inside could see hole cards during a big tournament but it's not the norm.
Like, there is no way billion dollar companies are risking their entire business by rigging poker games where players just win of each other. They make more than enough from the rake.

Kirby

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You're thinking of coffee!

Roulette is gambling, poker is a game of skill.

It's a skill I don't have mind and have no desire to attain because I can't stand card games (except strip poker, but my interest there is not really in the cards:D)
But I would say - whatever about an actual poker tournament, which is extremely likely to be legit, anything played online is way too open to manipulation, someone much smarter than you has inevitably rigged it in their own favour. So in the case of online poker - it's not even gambling, it's just paying to play a game!

Yes, it is a skill. But it's still gambling.

Thats why the best in the world frequently crash out. People have this notion that the best players always make the final table but you only get that impression because of how many tournaments they play in.

bucketybuck

Online poker in the mid 2000's was legitimately a good place to make easy money, if you played with any basic strategy at all you could come out ahead against all the muppets chasing their draws. I'm not saying everybody could have made millions from it, but a lot of smart people did very well from it. It gets very tiring though, multi tabling while playing TAG isn't exactly loads of fun.

Online is a very different world now though, everybody has access to the same information and the same card reading programmes basically telling you what to do in any situation, there are no more fish out there to be caught, just thousands of bots grinding away and no loose play to be found.

The online craze was real though, and great while it lasted!

baylah17

I used to play a lot of low stakes tournaments on PP, from about 2006 to 2009.
Got boring in the end.
I think online poker was a craze that has had its day.

donegaLroad

When you play online poker you are playing an algorithm which is programmed to beat you.

2smiggy

donegaLroad wrote: »

When you play online poker you are playing an algorithm which is programmed to beat you.

against other human players .....

Mr. CooL ICE

sbsquarepants wrote: »

someone much smarter than you has inevitably rigged it in their own favour. So in the case of online poker - it's not even gambling, it's just paying to play a game!

If that is your opinion of your online poker experience, then it means you got constantly outplayed and could never figure out why. The games aren't rigged.

TitianGerm

I played €1/€2 blinds cash games in a local casino between 06-08.

I made a few grand but called it a day when I moved out of home and rented. Before that i could afford to lose my buy in of €100-€200 but once I had proper bills I said it just wasn't worth the risk any more.

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

Yes, it is a skill. But it's still gambling.

Thats why the best in the world frequently crash out. People have this notion that the best players always make the final table but you only get that impression because of how many tournaments they play in.

Well the vast vast majority of poker pros are cash players. And if people crash out, they're not using good bankroll management and getting smacked by variance, or they're not keeping up with the game and being good enough.

Almost all of the old faces in poker we know are way behind on the maths being used. The younger generation outclasses them in cash games and they stay there because it's more profitable for them than tournaments.

donegaLroad wrote: »

When you play online poker you are playing an algorithm which is programmed to beat you.

Do you even know what online poker is?

B0jangles

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Used to work for Full Tilt in Cherrywood when the Feds decided to have a go at them for illegally offering online poker in the US, those were not fun times (they were before hand though, stupid excessive lunches / canteen / parties etc). Got out before the **** really got everywhere though.

Only thing I miss about that place is the free, insanely good fresh sushi several times a week

I got out a few months before the US feds started seizing stuff so I missed all the crazy.

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you even know what online poker is?

Probably talking about the poker machines in pubs.

Higher than a 3....... 2 every time... now they are fixed.

StringerBell

I still play but not to the extent I used to and live games are almost completely an alien concept to me at this point! Played professionally for 2 years before baby number 1 came and realized a more steady, secure income stream was needed.

Curtailed the amount if free time I had to indulge in a game I love big time!

donegaLroad

2smiggy wrote: »

against other human players .....

with a virtual deck

donegaLroad

donegaLroad wrote: »

with a virtual deck

Short posts don't help when you're the one on the back foot. Just explain what you mean or drop it.

PARlance

donegaLroad wrote: »

with a virtual deck

Someone has had one too many bad beats on the river...

sbsquarepants

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

If that is your opinion of your online poker experience, then it means you got constantly outplayed and could never figure out why. The games aren't rigged.

That's not my experience. I don't play.

If an algorithm housed on a machine in some obscure warehouse in Belize or Tuvalu, is controlling the cards you're being dealt, you can bet your bottom dollar all is not above board.
If you'd bet against that - you probably shouldn't be gambling!

Paddy Power may well be all legit, he has a lot to loose if he was caught rigging anything. XYZ corporation will just be called YZX tomorrow and the fiddle continues.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's not my experience. I don't play.

If an algorithm housed on a machine in some obscure warehouse in Belize or Tuvalu, is controlling the cards you're being dealt, you can bet your bottom dollar all is not above board.
If you'd bet against that - you probably shouldn't be gambling!

Paddy Power may well be all legit, he has a lot to loose if he was caught rigging anything. XYZ corporation will just be called YZX tomorrow and the fiddle continues.

This is pretty funny in a way.


Everyone else, don't try to explain this stuff to him if you value your sanity. There's no need for him to understand and I like his posts.

Mr. CooL ICE

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's not my experience. I don't play.

If an algorithm housed on a machine in some obscure warehouse in Belize or Tuvalu, is controlling the cards you're being dealt, you can bet your bottom dollar all is not above board.
If you'd bet against that - you probably shouldn't be gambling!

Paddy Power may well be all legit, he has a lot to loose if he was caught rigging anything. XYZ corporation will just be called YZX tomorrow and the fiddle continues.

Nope. Wrong. You're just speculating about something you've got absolutely no idea about.

bucketybuck

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's not my experience. I don't play.

If an algorithm housed on a machine in some obscure warehouse in Belize or Tuvalu, is controlling the cards you're being dealt, you can bet your bottom dollar all is not above board.
If you'd bet against that - you probably shouldn't be gambling!

Paddy Power may well be all legit, he has a lot to loose if he was caught rigging anything. XYZ corporation will just be called YZX tomorrow and the fiddle continues.

Basically, you know little about it but just know its rigged, because everybody knows its rigged, it must be rigged, right?

PARlance

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is pretty funny in a way.


Everyone else, don't try to explain this stuff to him if you value your sanity. There's no need for him to understand and I like his posts.

Agreed but in fairness, there were a few cases of superusers, way back at the start, on some of the smaller sights. Where the company created an account and was able to see everyone's cards. It's too big of a business for any reputable company to do that, they have a licence to print money via the rake.

Plenty other scandals out there of users multi accounts in the early days and a recent enough one with Russian bots. There's money to be won so you should always be weary to an extent.

Full Tilt another massive example of a scam.

But getting dogged on the river is just part of poker.

ChikiChiki

I no longer trust online poker. Too many scandals and too much software out there. We probably dont know the half of it to be fair. Players have been banned as they've been caught cheating and other people have sold their accounts to these cheaters so the cheaters are still active and winning.

Pokerstars have essentially a monopoly on online and can do what they like. There is no competition on their scale and this has also ruined it for me.

Live poker is a different animal, for those who say its not a skill game, google Fedor Holz. He is crushing the game. He has 18.5 million in live winnings the last few years. Below are his results.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=261880#

donegaLroad

ChikiChiki wrote: »

I no longer trust online poker. Too many scandals and too much software out there. We probably dont know the half of it to be fair. Players have been banned as they've been caught cheating and other people have sold their accounts to these cheaters so the cheaters are still active and winning.

Pokerstars have essentially a monopoly on online and can do what they like. There is no competition on their scale and this has also ruined it for me.

Live poker is a different animal, for those who say its not a skill game, google Fedor Holz. He is crushing the game. He has 18.5 million in live winnings the last few years. Below are his results.

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=261880#

Poker Stars is essentially what I was referring to in the post where I mentioned playing against an algorithm. I don't play online poker but I have seen people I know lose thousands (approx $70,000). I know nothing about live poker where players play each other, but I still wouldn't trust an online game where you cannot see the physical deck.

Mr. CooL ICE

PARlance wrote: »

Agreed but in fairness, there were a few cases of superusers, way back at the start, on some of the smaller sights. Where the company created an account and was able to see everyone's cards. It's too big of a business for any reputable company to do that, they have a licence to print money via the rake.

IIRC, it was only one instance (Absolute) and it was an employee. Allowing any sort of a superuser account to exist in the software was a ridiculous design flaw and that company never recovered

PARlance wrote: »

Plenty other scandals out there of users multi accounts in the early days and a recent enough one with Russian bots. There's money to be won so you should always be weary to an extent.

Full Tilt another massive example of a scam.

The Full Tilt software itself had integrity, despite the reputation. But the owners/shareholders were the ones that made a balls of it. They siphoned off $800m of both operational funds and player funds to fund their own lavish lifestyles which meant that when players tried to withdraw, the numbers on their accounts were meaningless.

But as for bots/collusion rings; yes, they exist, but there is a constant battle to keep them off the sites. Tournament play is easier to monitor than cash games by nature so cash games are the ones where you'll most likely be hit by a bot.

Mr. CooL ICE

donegaLroad wrote: »

Poker Stars is essentially what I was referring to in the post where I mentioned playing against an algorithm. I don't play online poker but I have seen people I know lose thousands (approx $70,000). I know nothing about live poker where players play each other, but I still wouldn't trust an online game where you cannot see the physical deck.

If you see people lose thousands, chances are they are both bad at poker and have a problem and don't when to stop. You shouldn't blame the software they use.

PARlance

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

IIRC, it was only one instance (Absolute) and it was an employee. Allowing any sort of a superuser account to exist in the software was a ridiculous design flaw and that company never recovered



The Full Tilt software itself had integrity, despite the reputation. But the owners/shareholders were the ones that made a balls of it. They siphoned off $800m of both operational funds and player funds to fund their own lavish lifestyles which meant that when players tried to withdraw, the numbers on their accounts were meaningless.

But as for bots/collusion rings; yes, they exist, but there is a constant battle to keep them off the sites. Tournament play is easier to monitor than cash games by nature so cash games are the ones where you'll most likely be hit by a bot.

Yes, I was referring to the deposits rather than the software re Full Tilt.

Ultimate Bet / Russ Hamilton was another Superuser scam.

hairyslug

Only played with friends, for very small amounts, normally when we didn't have enough money to go out to the pub for the night and it was more about having a laugh than anything else. Also I was absolutely ****e at it.

ChikiChiki

PARlance wrote: »

Yes, I was referring to the deposits rather than the software re Full Tilt.

Ultimate Bet / Russ Hamilton was another Superuser scam.

I remember the Russ Hamilton (aka potripper) one. He made it so so obvious playing nearly every bloody hand possible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbQyKgELDEA

danganabu

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

There still is skill involved but the way people talk about it there isn't any level of luck involved.

Luck evens itself out over any significent volume, what you are referring to is variance, Poker is 100% a game of skill and probability.

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Gambling is for mugs.

Poker is not gambling. Even if one was to concede that it was, it's not but I;ll indulge you , then gambling when you have an edge is most certainly not a mugs game and is very much a +ev thing to do.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

whatever about an actual poker tournament, which is extremely likely to be legit, anything played online is way too open to manipulation, someone much smarter than you has inevitably rigged it in their own favour. So in the case of online poker - it's not even gambling, it's just paying to play a game!

Online poker on one of the major sites is actually safer and more secure than live poker and that is fact!

donegaLroad wrote: »

When you play online poker you are playing an algorithm which is programmed to beat you.

I think you maybe referring to Poker Machines, the company who runs online games make their money from rake in cash games and registration fees for tournaments, it makes absolutely no difference to them whether player a or player b wins, they still get the same %. It's probably one of the most regulated industries out there.

Neon_Lights

Poker is a skill game, anybody who cant appreciate the intricacies of this, I will challenge them to a series of matches/games against them over a time period. Any game they like. Removing the randomness over time will show that it's highly skillful.

BrokenArrows

Ya i played a lot of reasonable size stakes. Saw a lot of money come and go both in online and real life casinos. I remember some big hands i won and remember the ones i lost even more.

I think over a lifetime of playing i probably broke even, maybe a little loss when you take into account the cost of traveling to tournaments and inevitably spend more money on drink/food when in a casino.

My peak of playing was probably 2007 where i spent a period of time playing professionally. By professionally i mean i was using it to put food on the table and pay my rent and was playing Monday-Saturday in a real casino all day.

While it worked out and i was able to provide myself an income it was extremely stressful and basically killed my love of playing. After i stopped that i pretty much stopped playing altogether apart from the occasional game with friends for no/little money.

buck65

Yeah had my go at this too, I studied the books and game theory and felt good about myself, won a good bit as I was disciplined but once I was winning regularly I got looser and lost most of the money back.
Played live poker too with mates, there were 6 or 7 of us and maybe 3 of us knew what we were doing and one most of the games over a 3 year period.
Still didn't stop me getting sickened against a lad betting on junk and drawing lucky so yes there is an element of luck to poker.
Don't play it now, chess is better and costs less!

branie2

I wouldn't bet on it

Dice75

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Poker is a skill game, anybody who cant appreciate the intricacies of this, I will challenge them to a series of matches/games against them over a time period. Any game they like. Removing the randomness over time will show that it's highly skillful.

Surely poker is 99% luck, 1% skill?

timthumbni

What site would any of the experts on here recommend for a novice. Is there any that allow you to play imaginary money first to get you used to the game?

Blacktie.

Dice75 wrote: »

Surely poker is 99% luck, 1% skill?

If this was the case everyone would be on an even playing field. Which they're not.

donegaLroad

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

If you see people lose thousands, chances are they are both bad at poker and have a problem and don't when to stop. You shouldn't blame the software they use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORI5fC7EzZc

JigglyMcJabs

When I was a trainee accountant earning the amazing sum of €12,000 a year, I played poker online every evening for a few hours, grinding away on multiple low stakes games. I kept track of everything, really didn't enjoy it much but managed to basically double my income. It made life a lot more comfortable.

I kept it up until it got harder to win, not as many clueless drunk Americans throwing cash away.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, absolutely not.

It happened once or twice years ago when someone on the inside could see hole cards during a big tournament but it's not the norm.
Like, there is no way billion dollar companies are risking their entire business by rigging poker games where players just win of each other. They make more than enough from the rake.

I can't find the link but there was a case where a online gambling site even went so far as to state what random number generator they were using (It was open source). Just so they were transparent and could claim to be fair. Some smart ass determined that since it used the time of the deal to start the generator there were still only a certain number of deals that can happen. And once you start seeing the cards that were dealt you could determine what the shuffle was. I think he needed to see something like 8 cards to determine the entire layout of the deck on a particular shuffle. He could determine partial layouts on 5 cards.

So in games like blackjack he could see those cards and determine which deck he was working on.

Mr. CooL ICE

donegaLroad wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORI5fC7EzZc

A video from 2008? Gave that video a quick skim and it's pretty much a summation of what's been discussed re Absolute/Ultimate above.

What's your opinion of it?