Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

Checked on Twitter after it happened, saw Mike dean officiating and thought "yup"

No way he's letting a last second winner take away from his headlines. Absolutely brutal referee.

Learned over the weekend the "celebrating with the fans" yellow card is actually a massive grey area, where there is massive discretion for the referee. So the fact it was the scenario it was and he booked the player just goes further to add evidence to the feeling he is an attention grabbing, terrible referee.

He ran to the fans, celebrated with the fans - which also resulted in fans spilling on to the pitch with both stewards and police getting involved.

Yeah, can't see any reason at all there why a ref might think it has become a yellow card worthy 'offence' in line with the laws of the game.

TheDoc

Wasn't keeping tabs over the weekend so reading back pages, just at before kick off and see

bangkok wrote: »

Martial wont score, rashford will come on and will score :pac:

Trigger

TheDoc wrote: »

Checked on Twitter after it happened, saw Mike dean officiating and thought "yup"

No way he's letting a last second winner take away from his headlines. Absolutely brutal referee.

Learned over the weekend the "celebrating with the fans" yellow card is actually a massive grey area, where there is massive discretion for the referee. So the fact it was the scenario it was and he booked the player just goes further to add evidence to the feeling he is an attention grabbing, terrible referee.

The rule in black and white IIRC is that it's a yellow card offence to leave the field of play without the Referees permission.

It's a yellow card the world over tbf and the players should know the rules.

While I agree with you that Mike Dean is an utterly atrocious ref, he was correct to yellow card Sterling. If Sterling hadn't already received a yellow he would have still still been on the field and just got a yellow card. If he doesn't he sets a precedent that all players should be allowed and that could cause serious harm to fans in the future as looking at the videos and images of the fans steaming forward to the players is what they want to prevent with the rule.

paulbok

TheDoc wrote: »

Wasn't keeping tabs over the weekend so reading back pages, just at before kick off and see

I see Bangkok is trying to grow a Fellani, bit to go yet though

TheDoc

paulbok wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for another Welbeck or Rooney debate at this stage?

hahaha Welbeck.

Watching him yesterday, remembering the outcry at him being sold. Van Gaal spot on , never mind getting some decent £ for him.

Absolutely mid table striker at best.

MagicIRL

The thing I don't understand is - Sterling scored and ran to the fans. Celebrated. Yellow card.

Half the City team joined him celebrating in front of their fans. Mendy was even seen, on camera, waving his arms to get the fans to keep cheering over and over.

How can one player be booked and the rest get away scot free? You scored the goal so you get the card while the rest of you get to celebrate with the fans for doing **** all?

What? :pac:

jayo26

astradave wrote: »

The rule in black and white IIRC is that it's a yellow card offence to leave the field of play without the Referees permission.

It's a yellow card the world over tbf and the players should know the rules.

While I agree with you that Mike Dean is an utterly atrocious ref, he was correct to yellow card Sterling. If Sterling hadn't already received a yellow he would have still still been on the field and just got a yellow card. If he doesn't he sets a precedent that all players should be allowed and that could cause serious harm to fans in the future as looking at the videos and images of the fans steaming forward to the players is what they want to prevent with the rule.

It is actually at the referees discretion to book him it's not a straight yellow card it's the refs discretion.

But im with you on it it's a yellow card offence all day long ...... because he plays for city and I'm happy with that

Mars Bar

TheDoc wrote: »

hahaha Welbeck.

Watching him yesterday, remembering the outcry at him being sold. Van Gaal spot on , never mind getting some decent £ for him.

Absolutely mid table striker at best.

https://twitter.com/GeniusFootball/status/901889394726096896

bucketybuck

MagicIRL wrote: »

The thing I don't understand is - Sterling scored and ran to the fans. Celebrated. Yellow card.

Half the City team joined him celebrating in front of their fans. Mendy was even seen, on camera, waving his arms to get the fans to keep cheering over and over.

How can one player be booked and the rest get away scot free? You scored the goal so you get the card while the rest of you get to celebrate with the fans for doing **** all?

What? :pac:

Well if the rest of the team is joining him then he is clearly the instigator?

TheDoc

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

I think jose has a point tbh the twelfth player is in the stands imo... we need to lift the team

The team also has a responsibility to lift the crowd.

The best atmospheres you hear and witness through television, are clearly the games where everything is emotional and reactive to what is happening on the pitch. An end to end game, a rough, tough tackling game or whatever.

If a game is comfortable, the crowd gets comfortable. I'm looking forward to getting over this season to what the mood is like, if I get the chance.

My last and only trip to OT thus far, was Van Gaal era, and tbh the only noise I was making, was losing my **** at how utterly dog**** Carrick was.

Actually found getting in on the chanting and noise making for the sake of it uncomfortable, awkward and a bit cringey tbh. I like to watch games attentively and my outbursts are reactions to things, be is positive or negative.

Granted I'm a "tourist fan" but if I lived outside the stadium and was a ticket holder I'd still opt for a seat in a relatively passive area, so I can just watch.

Not everyone is into, or comfortable with public expressions of emotion, noise or venom.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Should put in a huge offer for Sanchez. Take the Griezmann money and offer it to arsenal for him.

Some grumblings in Munich at the moment about Muller Would have him in a United shirt on that three man line behind Lukaku anyday

VW 1

astradave wrote:

The rule in black and white IIRC is that it's a yellow card offence to leave the field of play without the Referees permission.

Discretion should definitely be exercised, he didn't go over a hoarding or into a stand, the fans came onto the pitch.

If a player scores, runs, and slides at the corner flag but slides off the pitch he can be carded? Refs can turn a blind eye if they want with these things.

Mars Bar

TheDoc wrote: »

Actually found getting in on the chanting and noise making for the sake of it uncomfortable, awkward and a bit cringey tbh. I like to watch games attentively and my outbursts are reactions to things, be is positive or negative.

Granted I'm a "tourist fan" but if I lived outside the stadium and was a ticket holder I'd still opt for a seat in a relatively passive area, so I can just watch.

Not everyone is into, or comfortable with public expressions of emotion, noise or venom.

I tried two or three times to write this. I just can't get in to the chanting.

MagicIRL

bucketybuck wrote: »

Well if the rest of the team is joining him then he is clearly the instigator?

But isn't the yellow for celebrating with the fans and that being considered dangerous?

Anyone else joining in is only adding to it?

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He ran to the fans, celebrated with the fans - which also resulted in fans spilling on to the pitch with both stewards and police getting involved.

Yeah, can't see any reason at all there why a ref might think it has become a yellow card worthy 'offence' in line with the laws of the game.

That's my point though, the law isn't black and white, there is discretion there.

I recall Rashford twice approaching the fans and in for the hugs where he wasn't booked.

Anyway like I said, there was discussions over the weekend on it where it was outlined there is discretion for the referee and there isn't a stead fast rule "If player interacts with crowd then yellow card offence".

One of my pet peeves of the game for a while, penalising players for having the audacity to celebrate with their fans, then claims players being further detached from fans than ever before. Stupid.

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

Some grumblings in Munich at the moment about Muller Would have him in a United shirt on that three man line behind Lukaku anyday

I'd imagine you'd have to shift Mkhi out wide and put Muller behind him?

pjohnson

Mars Bar wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GeniusFootball/status/901889394726096896

Didnt Welbeck actually do this for Sunderland at least once? (I think twice but may be mistaken)

Trigger

jayo26 wrote: »

It is actually at the referees discretion to book him it's not a straight yellow card it's the refs discretion.

But im with you on it it's a yellow card offence all day long ...... because he plays for city and I'm happy with that

Fifa rules regarding Yellow cards I've highlighted the appropriate rule:

Caution-able offences
A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences:
• unsporting behaviour
• dissent by word or action
• persistent infringement of the Laws of the Game
• delaying the restart of play
• failure to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner
kick, free kick or throw-in
• entering or re-entering the field of play without the referee’s permission
• deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission

With regards to the interpretation of the law it says this:

Player outside the eld of play
If, after leaving the eld of play to correct unauthorised equipment or kit, to be treated for an injury or bleeding, because he has blood on his kit or for any other reason with the referee’s permission, a player re-enters the eld of play without the referee’s permission, the referee must:
• stop play (although not immediately if the player does not interfere with
play or if the advantage can be applied)
• caution the player for entering the eld of play without permission
• order the player to leave the eld of play if necessary (e.g. infringement of
Law 4)
If the referee stops play, it must be restarted:
• with an indirect free kick for the opposing team from the position of the
ball when play was stopped (see Law 13 – Position of free kick) if there is
no other infringement
• in accordance with Law 12 if the player infringes this Law
If a player accidentally crosses one of the boundary lines of the field of play, he is not deemed to have committed an infringement. Going off the field of play may be considered to be part of a playing movement.

in no part of the rule book does it say the law is at the referees descrecion, basically says only if the leaving is accidental that it would not be an infringement

TheDoc

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'd imagine you'd have to shift Mkhi out wide and put Muller behind him?

Oh no.

You put Muller on the teamsheet, anywhere, and then you just let him go.

The fella doesn't play a position, just get him into the first XI and let him go! It's why he freaked out Pep and its why he's freaking out Ancellotti. To be fair he wouldn't work under Jose either. He's a player that just drifts, let him do what he wants and you need to trust in his ability,nack and intelligence to do the right thing. The team around him kinda carry him a bit out of possession, but then you just deal with it because of what he does in possesion, or more importantly, when someone in the team has possesion and he's moving.

He'd be in for Mata. I actually like the front three as is, with Mhiki and Mata nailed in, with Martial/Rashford rotating. I think that is a very good starting formation from Jose and really does get the best out of our attacking players.

pjohnson

Cant see anyone coming in before Thursday. Maybe McTominay could go on loan if anyone comes in for him. West Brom have moved on from Smalling so maybe Tuanzebe will get a loan unless someone else bids for Smalling. Should be quiet until window closes thankfully.

TheDoc

Squad looks nice and harmonious. Nobody wanting out (why would they) so all good on that front when you look at some rivals all dealing with issues or mini fractures. And then nothing really "glaring" in terms of a weakness that would derail what we want. Sure some improvements available, but isn't there always.

Looks like another strong summer window took place. GJ Ed and the gang.

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

Squad looks nice and harmonious. Nobody wanting out (why would they) so all good on that front when you look at some rivals all dealing with issues or mini fractures. And then nothing really "glaring" in terms of a weakness that would derail what we want. Sure some improvements available, but isn't there always.

Looks like another strong summer window took place. GJ Ed and the gang.

i think if Shaw doesn't come back and play very well, we have a glaring weakness at left back that teams can and will target.

Thankfully Jones is playing well, which reduces any need for a CB.

Ibra coming back will be a big boost, if handled correctly, come the christmas period.

Still feel we also lack an actual winger - for the purpose of squad balance and the ability to change the game plan rather than hope different players implement it the same basic way but better.

Lord TSC

I'd agree we need a LB or a dedicated winger.

But I can also see us not aggressively pursuing someone with the mindset that we'll leave the €100m set aside for Griezmann, maybe try at Xmas and if not, get him quickly next summer. We won't splash out €100m on a player if Griezmann is set to join the 3 behind Mkhi and Rashford/Martial within 12 months. Unless someone like Bale becomes available, I think we finished our business weeks ago with Matic.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'd agree we need a LB or a dedicated winger.

But I can also see us not aggressively pursuing someone with the mindset that we'll leave the €100m set aside for Griezmann, maybe try at Xmas and if not, get him quickly next summer. We won't splash out €100m on a player if Griezmann is set to join the 3 behind Mkhi and Rashford/Martial within 12 months. Unless someone like Bale becomes available, I think we finished our business weeks ago with Matic.

Yup. Signing a winger now mucks things up. Ibra wont sign on a 3rd season so when he does go. It will mean Martial/Rashford will understudy Lukaku instead of roatating LW duties which will be Greizmanns starting role. We had space for another attacker and that was claimed by Ibra. Unless we plan on loaning out Martial to Spurs after all.

Adamocovic

What a start, long may it continue. I want to add him on FF but I'm afraid I'll jinx him!

Henrikh Mkhitaryan
Last season, Mkhitaryan registered one Premier League assist and created 29 chances. In three games this season, he has five assists and has created 16 chances. A player reborn, just as we hoped.

source http://www.football365.com/news/premier-league-winners-losers-6

Discodog

I hope that we don't bank on Griezeman & then discover that he has other plans.

TheDoc

Discodog wrote: »

I hope that we don't bank on Griezeman & then discover that he has other plans.

He's a good player and all, but I don't ever feel he would be a make or break for us. Forgot about the prospect of him pretty quickly this summer to be honest.

While the likes of Messi, Ronaldo and some others are true gems of their generation where you just can't find something similar, I don't find Griezemann to be so unique, and the type of player you can see at a number of top clubs. Guess the issue is about availability.

bucketybuck

I see there are further transfer rumours surrounding Jonny Evans. When you hear that and you look at some of the defensive struggles various clubs are having I do find it surprising that nobody has chanced a bid for one of our 5 CB's, Jones or Smalling in particular.

MagicIRL

I honestly haven't watched nearly enough A.Madrid / France internationals to have an opinion on Griezmann. I only know what this echo chamber tells me. So if he joins or not I'm not too pushed.

Gareth Bale however... now there's someone you know will come in and make an instant, world class, impact. What a player.

Nalz

pjohnson wrote: »

Didnt Welbeck actually do this for Sunderland at least once? (I think twice but may be mistaken)

He's done it for Arsenal a few times... and he has the funniest collection of unintentional assists I've ever seen.

pjohnson

Nalz wrote: »

He's done it for Arsenal a few times... and he has the funniest collection of unintentional assists I've ever seen.

https://youtu.be/ssWP3dRvgrU

0gac3yjefb5sv7

As we are now in the international break of boringness, who/what positions will we be looking to sign next summer and onwards? The squad is pretty young now.

Giggsy11

bucketybuck wrote: »

I see there are further transfer rumours surrounding Jonny Evans. When you hear that and you look at some of the defensive struggles various clubs are having I do find it surprising that nobody has chanced a bid for one of our 5 CB's, Jones or Smalling in particular.

What's the point of bidding if the players aren't on market or players don't want to leave, at least Jones isn't.

pjohnson

If we cant ship out Smalling I'd hope we look into a loan for Tuanzebe (need a guarantee he'd play mind), same with McTominay.

Your Airbag

MagicIRL wrote: »

Gareth Bale however... now there's someone you know will come in and make an instant, world class, impact. What a player.

The Gareth Bale of 2-3 years ago maybe. Bale hasn't played well for Madrid in about a year now. He is picking up injuries easily and pretty much a shadow of his former self.

Liam McPoyle

Your Airbag wrote: »

The Gareth Bale of 2-3 years ago maybe. Bale hasn't played well for Madrid in about a year now. He is picking up injuries easily and pretty much a shadow of his former self.

Have to agree.

You would be talking at least £100,000,000 for him aswell.

If we are going to splash that kind of money I'd rather we bid for someone like Delle Ali.

paulbok

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'd agree we need a LB or a dedicated winger.

But I can also see us not aggressively pursuing someone with the mindset that we'll leave the €100m set aside for Griezmann, maybe try at Xmas and if not, get him quickly next summer. We won't splash out €100m on a player if Griezmann is set to join the 3 behind Mkhi and Rashford/Martial within 12 months. Unless someone like Bale becomes available, I think we finished our business weeks ago with Matic.

Unless "a Bale" becomes available by the end of the window, I expect the next business by the club will be to sort out Herrara's new contract and get DeGea onto a new long term one.

Mitch Connor

pjohnson wrote: »

If we cant ship out Smalling I'd hope we look into a loan for Tuanzebe (need a guarantee he'd play mind), same with McTominay.

Didn't they change the loan rules this season too - think loans need to be sorted by Thursday, previously they could be sorted after the transfer window closed (for domestic loans to lower league sides)

Your Airbag

Business Cat wrote: »

Have to agree.

You would be talking at least £100,000,000 for him aswell.

If we are going to splash that kind of money I'd rather we bid for someone like Delle Ali.

Lemar would be my pick. Its looks like Liverpool are making a move for him but Monaco have lost so many players I don't think they'll sell anymore.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

I'd prefer Sanchez over Griezmann, even though it's more short term...

MagicIRL

Your Airbag wrote: »

The Gareth Bale of 2-3 years ago maybe. Bale hasn't played well for Madrid in about a year now. He is picking up injuries easily and pretty much a shadow of his former self.

Bale spent a lot of last season with injuries as you said. Let us not forget in the 2015/2016 season he had 19 goals and 10 assists in the league alone. That is class.

I have no doubt that if he moved, and was fit, which I've no doubt he will be in time, that he would deliver.

I don't think he'll ever move, as he would cost an astronomical amount of money and is playing in the best club side in the world, but he would no doubt be a welcome addition to United. :cool:

Adamocovic

MagicIRL wrote: »

I have no doubt that if he moved, and was fit, which I've no doubt he will be in time, that he would deliver.

I don't think he'll ever move, as he would cost an astronomical amount of money and is playing in the best club side in the world, but he would no doubt be a welcome addition to United. :cool:

"No doubt. No doubt in my mind."

pjohnson

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Didn't they change the loan rules this season too - think loans need to be sorted by Thursday, previously they could be sorted after the transfer window closed (for domestic loans to lower league sides)

Yup. Thursday or they stay until Jan. Except Joel Pereira. Goalkeepers can get an Emergency Loan if a club is in crisis.

pjohnson

Hate to admit it but Levy is a shrewd Mofo, signs Wimmer for €5m. He then goes and fails to get into the side even managing to fall behind Dier, a midfielder, in the CB pecking order. Then sold for €15m. 10m profit for a player who probably has a worse reputation than when he arrived.

bangkok

MagicIRL wrote: »

I honestly haven't watched nearly enough A.Madrid / France internationals to have an opinion on Griezmann. I only know what this echo chamber tells me. So if he joins or not I'm not too pushed.

Gareth Bale however... now there's someone you know will come in and make an instant, world class, impact. What a player.

Griezmann is probably in the top 4-5 players in the world right now. A class act and would perfectly suit United should he join next summer

Drumpot

pjohnson wrote: »

Hate to admit it but Levy is a shrewd Mofo, signs Wimmer for €5m. He then goes and fails to get into the side even managing to fall behind Dier, a midfielder, in the CB pecking order. Then sold for €15m. 10m profit for a player who probably has a worse reputation than when he arrived.

Sigurdsons value has gone up 5 fold since he left spurs. In all fairness, transfer inflation has gone mad. in saying that, levy is good at buying and selling players but it could be argued that spurs are in a better position to haggle then united.

Going around saying "money is no object" wasn't the wisest thing Woodward done when he took over his current role.

beakerjoe

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I'd prefer Sanchez over Griezmann, even though it's more short term...

Hes lost interest in Arsenal, he looked anything but interested yesterday. He wont be bothered until hes at a new club. Seems to be interested in himself more than the club.

Griezmann however appears to have the opposite attitude. I know who Id want out of those two.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

Sigurdsons value has gone up 5 fold since he left spurs. In all fairness, transfer inflation has gone mad. in saying that, levy is good at buying and selling players but it could be argued that spurs are in a better position to haggle then united.

Going around saying "money is no object" wasn't the wisest thing Woodward done when he took over his current role.

I don't think that stuff has an effect on our negotiating. It has an effect on fan expectation but not other clubs.

Other clubs can see our accounts, know our TV deals etc - they know what money United have. Whether Woodward says it or not, other clubs will have a very good idea of United's financial power. Every time we announce a new sponsor it adds to that.

TheDoc

pjohnson wrote: »

Hate to admit it but Levy is a shrewd Mofo, signs Wimmer for €5m. He then goes and fails to get into the side even managing to fall behind Dier, a midfielder, in the CB pecking order. Then sold for €15m. 10m profit for a player who probably has a worse reputation than when he arrived.

And yet didn't Vertonghan have a fair while out last season? Did they drop points in that period?

Cool for them to be flipping profit, but they maybe should prefer doing it on the likes of Kane, Ali or Eriksson where their value multiplies based on their actual input to the team, and making the team better.

Kyle Walker for example, got him for like £2m or something, brings the team forward plays well then goes for monster money.

Spurs had some ropey results last August too I think? While its easy to say, but what if they miss out by a point or two? Would it not be shrewder to have the incomings done and dusted, with the manager and team, settled in pre-season, for the sake of a few million?

How many millions do they miss out on by this tight arse routine? How many "what ifs" when the team starts to break and Kane,Ali, Erikson, Alderwereld etc start to leave to go win something?

Maybe he doesn't care, maybe they can maintain the furor and narrative of overachieving, but I'd argue shrewder owners or Chief Execs would be cementing on progress and capitalising.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I don't think that stuff has an effect on our negotiating. It has an effect on fan expectation but not other clubs.

Other clubs can see our accounts, know our TV deals etc - they know what money United have. Whether Woodward says it or not, other clubs will have a very good idea of United's financial power. Every time we announce a new sponsor it adds to that.

The best you can say it is unclear if it has any meaningful impact is on negotiations. It's not clear how this helps in any positive way.

I know if I am negotiating for a club that's trying to squeeze every penny out of united for a player they want, that I will quote Woodward on that to make his ability to negotiate as awkward as possible.