Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

That shows me Smalling and young were at fault
Lindlelof was in the correct position
He slipped, it happens

jayo26

That shows me we need a regular back two.

beno619

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Never going to happen with Herrera in midfield, Miki being as weak as he is while Matic has to cover for them.
Herrera is functional and extremely useful to have but he's just not creative enough.
I've accepted the limitations, I just feel some haven't and are convincing themselves Utd can create multiple chances without Pogba in Midfield.
If I'm being honest, I think people need to get over it.

In short I disagree. We're going to have to win matches without him to be successful and Jose need to coax performances out of his replacements. It's a fact not something people need to get over.

Rayne Wooney

He was 8 or 9 yards away from his man coming into the box and had no clue where he was, it was poor defending and the guy he was marking could have easily put it away.

Pogba jogging back is laughable too but management should know he shouldn’t be relied on to track back.

user2011

If he doesn't slip, he clears that ball.

Looking to get a yard or two ahead of him I see nothing wrong with that, id have Gayle the faster of the two.

Rayne Wooney

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

He was 8 or 9 yards away from his man coming into the box and had no clue were he was, it was poor defending and the guy he was marking could have easily put it away.

Pogba jogging back is laughable too but management should know he shouldn’t be relied on to track back.

What do you want him to do man mark one of the 4 players and stay on the edge of the box. He got in a good position to cut out a cross. In fairness it was a very good pull back by their attacker aswell

user2011

I put the goal down to great play out wide, where they had an absolute speedster against our Cb. It got pulled back and put across the goal the other CB loses his footing trying to slow down.

Al Capwned

Lord jaysus, he slips. He slips.
If he doesn't slip, he clears the ball.
He slips.

It was a slip. So he didn't clear the ball.

Slip.

Sake.

Trigger

That shows me that Matic is more at fault for not tracking Gayle as even if the ball went to Lindelofs man it still should have been dealt with by Valencia, 4 Newcastle players vs 2 United players in the box..

limnam

Al Capwned wrote: »

Lord jaysus, he slips. He slips.
If he doesn't slip, he clears the ball.
He slips.

It was a slip. So he didn't clear the ball.

Slip.

Sake.

Yup.

It's like a cabbage patch around here of late.

Trigger

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

He was 8 or 9 yards away from his man coming into the box and had no clue where he was, it was poor defending and the guy he was marking could have easily put it away.

Pogba jogging back is laughable too but management should know he shouldn’t be relied on to track back.

If he is out any further and the man gets by Smalling it’s 5 on 2 with 2 players miles out of position, his position is grand, the only problem was that he slipped, that stuff happens, it’s hardly his fault, id still blame the rest of the players for allowing it be 4 on 2 for that cutback.

jayo26

Al Capwned wrote: »

Lord jaysus, he slips. He slips.
If he doesn't slip, he clears the ball.
He slips.

It was a slip. So he didn't clear the ball.

Slip.

Sake.

Have ya got an opinion on it?

I think the real point here is jones would have got his head on it.

adox

Look on the bright side. If it had been Jones that had slipped he would have had to come off and be out for six weeks.

Seriously though. The lack of cover from midfield for the back four is shocking. With too many attacking players in the starting line up they get too deatatched from the back four and the team loses shape. It’s exacerbated when they don’t really bother tracking back.

fatherted1969

We've conceded 6 goals in the premiership this season. Relax will ye

bangkok

Al Capwned wrote: »

Lord jaysus, he slips. He slips.
If he doesn't slip, he clears the ball.
He slips.

It was a slip. So he didn't clear the ball.

Slip.

Sake.

And if gerrard doesnt slip they win the league

Or if terry doesnt slip we dont win the european cup.

I love a good slip every now and then

Taking out his tribute to Steven Gerrard, I thought that Lindelof had a good game yesterday. In previous games where he made one glaring error, I thought on those occasions that the rest of his performance still left a bit/lot to be desired. Yesterday was different IMO.

He could have crumbled for the rest of the match following a slip like that, but I thought he continued on in the match strong and composed. Newcastle were busy pinging the ball into our box during phases of pressure at 0-1, and quite often Lindelof was the man in there getting the height, getting his head on the ball to send it back out to a safe enough area (rather than into the net, or into the path of a goal-bound Newcastle player). As well as that, he did manage to put in a few successful challenges to relieve that pressure which Newcastle were putting us under a little too easily.

As for 'with the ball', he moved it well around the back, and knew the correct moment to pick a pass to Matic to start some forward play, and also when to just recycle possession among the defenders. He even got forward with a nice dribble at one stage to put in a sweet diagonal cross for Lukaku. The cross might have been a small fraction too high for Lukaku to get the header on target, but it was a good move from Lindelof and a decent chance at 0-1. It also showed some attacking skill and technique from Lindelof, which I welcome from our centre backs. You usually only see Smalling get into those areas or make a dribble into the final third of the pitch.

The slip was poor, no doubt. We can call it bad luck, and there is an element of that, but Lindelof has had a little too much bad luck lately for it all to be just down to bad luck. For that kind of bad luck, you're talking about 'Peter Griffin pissing on an ancient Indian burial ground', cursed, things that just don't happen in real life.

That said, I think he more than deserves the benefit of the doubt here and a little patience. Some of the reactions are just OTT, never mind short-sighted. Jose sought the player out over months. And I don't mean that in a 'we shouldn't question the manager' sort of way. I mean that this isn't a Bebe-type deal to curry favour with an agent; there are football reasons why Jose picked Lindelof even if they aren't fully on display yet in a United shirt.

Jose had at least 6 months between the January and Summer windows to consider or reconsider his opinion of Lindelof before purchase. The way some fans are going on, it's as if an inept manager randomly picked a clown from the circus and put him in a United shirt.

We should still criticise Lindelof's performances, but given that Jose is easing him into the club and the English game I reckon calls for him to be fúcked out are very premature. Even though it's already mid-November, yesterday's match was only Lindelof's first Premier League start for us. That's very early for such a call to be made. We might be doing ourselves out of a good CB because of a few paper-cuts in his settling-in phase if we act so decisively so soon.

We might not be, either - He could end up as the Memphis of our defense, never settling into the club or the English game. Still though, as frustrating as the errors can be while watching them in must-win games, it's still far too early for such impatience and finality with the player.

Giggsy11

M!Ck^ wrote: »

That shows me Smalling and young were at fault
Lindlelof was in the correct position
He slipped, it happens

It isn't Smalling's fault. Defense don't stay in the box all the time. They move as a team. Young was out of position as he was in attacking position, so Smalling like any CB tried to cut the source. Lindelof was in correct position too but he couldn't adjust his feet to stay on his feet.

If for these goals we start blaming fullbacks then we shouldn't expect fullbacks to bomb forward all the time. They are not machines to come back to position when they have already made some attacking runs.

Jayop

adox wrote: »

Look on the bright side. If it had been Jones that had slipped he would have had to come off and be out for six weeks.

Seriously though. The lack of cover from midfield for the back four is shocking. With too many attacking players in the starting line up they get too deatatched from the back four and the team loses shape. It’s exacerbated when they don’t really bother tracking back.

I'd rather that and ship the odd goal like that than have less attacking threat in the team.

adox

Jayop wrote: »

I'd rather that and ship the odd goal like that than have less attacking threat in the team.

I think we can be just as attacking with the right midfield set up, just more of a unit.

bangkok

Giggsy11 wrote: »

It isn't Smalling's fault. Defense don't stay in the box all the time. They move as a team. Young was out of position as he was in attacking position, so Smalling like any CB tried to cut the source. Lindelof was in correct position too but he couldn't adjust his feet to stay on his feet.

If for these goals we start blaming fullbacks then we shouldn't expect fullbacks to bomb forward all the time. They are not machines to come back to position when they have already made some attacking runs.

And yet evra used to get blamed a lot for our goals even though he was one of our main attacking players

Adamocovic

Been away from boards during the weekend, so hadn't seen what the reactions to the game were here.

Pogba back with an assist, a goal and a good performance.
Lukaku back with a goal.
Zlatan back from injury.
A 4-1 win when we conceded first.

And from a quick glance people seem to be debating the goal we conceded the most. Maybe further back is different, but has it not got to that point of over analysis. A nice cut-back, Lindelof slips and Gayle scores.

In a game where we won 4-1, I don't see the point in this idea of critically analysing a goal, which could well have not happened if it wasn't for the slip, in depth to try assign blame to who people think was at fault.

Champions League game midweek will be a big one, then Brighton and Watford in the league before facing Arsenal. After seeing how Arsenal performed at the week I'd be hoping we can pick up maximum points against Brighton and Watford, though it will be tricky with both teams playing well.

Giggsy11

Giggsy11 wrote: »

It isn't Smalling's fault. Defense don't stay in the box all the time. They move as a team. Young was out of position as he was in attacking position, so Smalling like any CB tried to cut the source. Lindelof was in correct position too but he couldn't adjust his feet to stay on his feet.

If for these goals we start blaming fullbacks then we shouldn't expect fullbacks to bomb forward all the time. They are not machines to come back to position when they have already made some attacking runs.

That's why I said it was both their fault. Young should have doubled up.

beno619

beno619 wrote: »

In short I disagree. We're going to have to win matches without him to be successful and Jose need to coax performances out of his replacements. It's a fact not something people need to get over.

He has got wins without him. Just not as clinical, not as creative and has had to try varying methods to get the most out of said limitations.

I think people struggle to accept these limitations and expect a magic wand to be waved. Herrera is 28 and has been with Utd long enough to know what to expect of him.
He's already used combinations of Matic, Herrera, Fellani, Miki and Mata in midfield using varying tactics and no matter what the faults are visible. Herrera and Miki being the most prominent.

I believe this will be addressed long-term with the possibility of signing another AM and possibly shipping out Miki if his rut continues.

bucketybuck

Adamocovic wrote: »

Champions League game midweek will be a big one

Why do you say that?

Giggsy11

bangkok wrote: »

And yet evra used to get blamed a lot for our goals even though he was one of our main attacking players

Not from me, even when Evra was playing I said the same thing. It's near foolishness to expect attacking fullback to be in position to deal with counter attacks.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

That's why I said it was both their fault. Young should have doubled up.

Yeah Young was left behind, I don't remember the exact phase of play whether it was build up play from them or counter when we lost possession but Smalling did what he had to.

Nalz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think the real point here is jones would have got his head on it.

Lol

MagicIRL

MagicIRL wrote: »

It is absolutely, 100%, no surprise that United performances have dipped since Pogba got injured.

People are quick to point the finger at him when he plays but you take him out and everything is just that little more rough around the edges. The team is still winning, for the most part, but the real lush attacking dynamic play is missing and that's because Pogba is missing.

:cool:

MagicIRL

MagicIRL wrote: »

:cool:

Sometimes it's just quite simple. It's not some overly complicated reason.
Your most creative player is missing. We are not as good without him.

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/932513856072675328

Adamocovic

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why do you say that?

In my opinion, a good display and a win would be huge for team/fan morale and could lead to us finding a good run of games.

After a couple of weeks of criticisms and questionings from a lot of people, if we can follow up the good win against Newcastle by securing not only a knockout in the CL but top spot in our group it would bring a lot of confidence to fans and players.

I think if we are to be successful this season we need to find form and a purple patch, avoiding setbacks, so a win this week would be very big. The league and CL may be separate competitions but in order to find form, confidence and build up that fear factor of playing against United again we need to be winning as much as possible in all competitions, and this game is a perfect chance.

yourdeadwright

Who do people think will be the main forward in the big games once Ibra gets fit ?
Lakaku doesn't turn up and Ibra will slow the pace of team right down its a tuff call ,

yabadabado

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Who do people think will be the main forward in the big games once Ibra gets fit ?
Lakaku doesn't turn up and Ibra will slow the pace of team right down its a tuff call ,

I think 100% Lukaku.
A fuctioning forward line who doesnt leave him exposed may just help Lukaku turn up.

Jayop

adox wrote: »

I think we can be just as attacking with the right midfield set up, just more of a unit.

But we generally have been like that. Bear in mind this was the first time this year that Rashford martial Lukaku and Pogba all started together. Also pogba just back from months out so the tracking of the runners was a bit out. For me the Newcastle goal was more good play on their part than major mistakes on ours. Our full back was pushing up which we all want, they broke with lightning pace and crowded the box. It happens.

Give me a 4 1 over a nil nil or a 1 nil any day.

bucketybuck

Adamocovic wrote: »

The league and CL may be separate competitions but in order to find form, confidence and build up that fear factor of playing against United again we need to be winning as much as possible in all competitions, and this game is a perfect chance.

I couldn't agree more. Which is why I get so frustrated when managers contribute to putting the brakes on such confidence building runs of form.

yabadabado

yabadabado wrote: »

I think 100% Lukaku.
A fuctioning forward line who doesnt leave him exposed may just help Lukaku turn up.

Tbf to him he has been turning up even without scoring
I believe he has 3 assists and has still been involved in nearly all of our goals prior to Saturday

TheDoc

Excellent performance at the weekend, was a joy and really entertaining to watch. Thought we were slicing through at will at times.

Credit to Jose for making the changes. Mhiki could well be looking at a spell on the sidelines as I thought Mata was excellent. While he doesn't have the dribbling or the pace as Mhiki, he kept possesion, linked play beautifully and was a real threat.

Martial and Rashford both playing was incredible. The pace, skill and directness caused problems non stop. Thought Pogba was brilliant. I can see from the last few pages there is debate on his impact, but for me he's the key to it all. If he can keep that sort of form up, we'll be laughing. But I think Mata was as big an influence coming back into the team, as he was a constant outlet and his movement is so good, and benefited from that raw pace around him that he could slide balls around the place.

Poor Lindelof with that slip, just seems to be written that he will be a highlight for issues, but thought in general in the game he was fine. Funny at point seeing him at the Newcastle box haha. Looks slick on the ball so hopefully his actual defending gets sorted out, although wouldn't blame him for the goal, just unfortunate.

That was really what the doctor ordered. A nice thumping of someone, players coming back, good performance and quickly good vibes come back, to me anyway.

If I was being picky, I thought when Zlatan came on the shape looked horrendous. Lukaku out wide? I'll assume it was just a makeshift to give him minutes in an easy game, and not like some feared Jose going proper mental with positions to accommodate everyone, but I'll put it down to just getting Zlatan back in the game.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Maybe that was the move I meant. He nearly ran from the halfway line. Was unreal.

That was so noticable in the replay for Pogbas goal. Pogba and Martial were ahead of him and he was not in frame when the ball went out wide, then you see him just absolutely storming up.

The defender say him about 8 yards away yet by the time he got himself motoring Rashford was already gone.

Unbelievable pace in Martial and Rashford, but the latter especially.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Excellent performance at the weekend, was a joy and really entertaining to watch. Thought we were slicing through at will at times.

Credit to Jose for making the changes. Mhiki could well be looking at a spell on the sidelines as I thought Mata was excellent. While he doesn't have the dribbling or the pace as Mhiki, he kept possesion, linked play beautifully and was a real threat.

Martial and Rashford both playing was incredible. The pace, skill and directness caused problems non stop. Thought Pogba was brilliant. I can see from the last few pages there is debate on his impact, but for me he's the key to it all. If he can keep that sort of form up, we'll be laughing. But I think Mata was as big an influence coming back into the team, as he was a constant outlet and his movement is so good, and benefited from that raw pace around him that he could slide balls around the place.

Poor Lindelof with that slip, just seems to be written that he will be a highlight for issues, but thought in general in the game he was fine. Funny at point seeing him at the Newcastle box haha. Looks slick on the ball so hopefully his actual defending gets sorted out, although wouldn't blame him for the goal, just unfortunate.

That was really what the doctor ordered. A nice thumping of someone, players coming back, good performance and quickly good vibes come back, to me anyway.

If I was being picky, I thought when Zlatan came on the shape looked horrendous. Lukaku out wide? I'll assume it was just a makeshift to give him minutes in an easy game, and not like some feared Jose going proper mental with positions to accommodate everyone, but I'll put it down to just getting Zlatan back in the game.

Zlatan will be second choice
I imagine cup runs he will start and sub impact where required
Great to have choice to rest Lukaku tbh but Jose won't start both

TheDoc

jayo26 wrote: »

Would you not think as an attacking midfielder he needs to contribute more in the way of goals or assists? I know he brings more to the flow of the game but players like him need to be doing an awful lot more to be considered a valuable first team player.

Mata has 10 goals in all comps in every season for us, dating back to 14/15 season. I think that is pretty good going for a player who there seems to be more focus on what he cannot do, than what he can do. For a player we have had mostly lumped out wide on the right as opposed to #10.

His assists could maybe be higher, but they don't look out of line with his counterparts.

His chance creation is extremely high, and I guess the stats you don't get measured, his general influence, you can see normally he is involved in our buildup when goals get scored, and he is on the pitch.

I think Mata is subject to this somewhat newer phenomonan, where its all about what players cant do, as opposed to can do. Ozil suffers from it among others. Creative #10's that for so long you would love in your team, you appreciated their ability and what they can do, that you don't worry about their stamina, engine or workrate because its all worth it. The focus seems to be drastically more on what they arn't doing, which is weird.

There is very few players in the PL doing it consistently like Mata in his role, David Silva maybe the only one consistently being better. De Bruyne the best at the moment, Ozil ahead of Mata likely also, but others like hazard have had some pretty extreme lows and Mata is just consistent.

For someone who has being shoehorned into the team, and never trusted in his best role, I think hes done pretty well for us, and there is likely to be a massive "what if" surrounding him and playing at 10, unless we see it a bit more now with Mhiki on the bench or out of the team.

Concerns are his pace and strength, but I think surrounded by Pogba, Martial,Rashford and Lukaku, that is not really a concern when you want someone to knit it all together

Tylerdurex

M!Ck^ wrote: »

He has got wins without him. Just not as clinical, not as creative and has had to try varying methods to get the most out of said limitations.

I think people struggle to accept these limitations and expect a magic wand to be waved. Herrera is 28 and has been with Utd long enough to know what to expect of him.
He's already used combinations of Matic, Herrera, Fellani, Miki and Mata in midfield using varying tactics and no matter what the faults are visible. Herrera and Miki being the most prominent.

I believe this will be addressed long-term with the possibility of signing another AM and possibly shipping out Miki if his rut continues.

That's why I'm not surprised to see us linked with ozil and fabregas, if the purse strings really are tightened then those 2 on a free makes sense for José

TheDoc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Lindelof had no idea where his man was for the goal, regardless of whether he slipped or Gayle knocked it in.

He just seems very unreliable and there are plenty of examples already in his short time here, if being benched the first couple of months wasn’t worrying enough.

Well that was down to the manager wasn't it. I'd imagine it's all playing out nicely in terms of what the expectation was, in that the manager felt he wasnt ready, he has had numerous issues therefore confirms the process around which he is being dealt.

I'd imagine its pretty hard to come into the team in spurts when the side is somewhat settled, especially defensively, nevermind having to deal with a new league. But I don't think many people expected him to come in and hit the ground running? He's different to a Bailly and that seemed clear from his signing.

Times on his side, I don't think he looks anywhere near like a dud or a flop or anything of those extremes.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Ibra isn’t a no 10 and won’t be even if he plays behind Lukaku. Miki has spent more time being played wide than as a no 10. Anyway I’m talking about the future.

It’s just my opinion based on nothing concrete other than observation and the way the team seems to be slowly evolving.

I'd agree with you.

Wether it was Jose's plan, and I'd imagine it was operating in a 4-2-3-1, the 10 is a graveyard at Old Trafford, and it just doesn't seem to be consistently working out.

I'm also not sure why he doesn't employ his 4-3-3 that basically made him who he was. I sometimes don't get managers like him, or Van Gaal. Their entire career forged of the back of a tactical and formational invention or perfection, to then arrive at somewhere like United and for some reason, decide to try something new. To be inventive in other ways, and being themselves in others.

I havn't seen 4-3-3 nearly enough from Mourinho and I, I think somewhat like you, assumed Pogba arriving was to build and develop a team in his old 4-3-3 style of massive power and dominance.

Based on how upset he got over Perisic, I also imagine the vision he has and what he wants is 4-3-3, with a Martial/Rashford operating as an inside forward form the left but then having a genuine winger on the right, and a midfield of Matic, Pogba and then Fellaini/new signing.

It's also why I'm unsure and puzzled a bit by Griezemann and where he fits in. I'm not sure if we are looking or buying players for a Jose plan or vision (I'm not overly sure we are) or just buying good players then figuring it out in the aftermath (I think this is happening)

TheDoc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

He was 8 or 9 yards away from his man coming into the box and had no clue where he was, it was poor defending and the guy he was marking could have easily put it away.

Pogba jogging back is laughable too but management should know he shouldn’t be relied on to track back.

Basic defending in that situation where your FB has been skint and opposing winger is hitting the byline, as a CB, is to have your tracking run to the six yard box, as that is the danger area.

He slipped, you can see where the ball was when he slipped. 99 times out of 100 he clears that ball.

The midfield tracking and defence being left exposed was the issue, with Jose himself even touched on when speaking about the conundrum of playing Martial and Rashford together, that the team will be more open to attack.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

And yet evra used to get blamed a lot for our goals even though he was one of our main attacking players

Evra was getting skint alive by average wingers, being caught totally out of position and ballwatching plenty.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. Evra was brilliant when he was brilliant and was **** when he got ****. It's pretty simple man

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

Evra was getting skint alive by average wingers, being caught totally out of position and ballwatching plenty.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. Evra was brilliant when he was brilliant and was **** when he got ****. It's pretty simple man

There's always been some who, for some reason, think people saying "He was dreadful in his last two years for us" is the same as saying "he was just dreadful through his entire career"....

astrofool

M!Ck^ wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/932513856072675328

#Sacrified ??

astrofool

astrofool wrote: »

#Sacrified ??

Yea, I'd suspect there was vodoo ritual to his recovery :pac:

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Evra was getting skint alive by average wingers, being caught totally out of position and ballwatching plenty.

I don't know why this keeps coming up. Evra was brilliant when he was brilliant and was **** when he got ****. It's pretty simple man

But he was used more as an attacking weapon in his final 2 seasons. 6 goals and 9 assists for a left back in class. Thats what i will remember him for. As someone said earlier, he is not a machine, his main job them seasons was an attacking one and not a defending one

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

Excellent performance at the weekend, was a joy and really entertaining to watch. Thought we were slicing through at will at times.

Credit to Jose for making the changes. Mhiki could well be looking at a spell on the sidelines as I thought Mata was excellent. While he doesn't have the dribbling or the pace as Mhiki, he kept possesion, linked play beautifully and was a real threat.

Martial and Rashford both playing was incredible. The pace, skill and directness caused problems non stop. Thought Pogba was brilliant. I can see from the last few pages there is debate on his impact, but for me he's the key to it all. .

The difference with Pogba is he gives a sh1t what happens to the club. He has a connect with the club. In so many clubs now you have the players who come because of the big wages and no loyalty. Pogba was there as a junior so he has it in his heart, so he will give everything where others in the squad will not, because they just work there. He should be captain to transmit his drive.