Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

In a way yes. Barcelona were the best team with some of the best players ever to play football. I don't think winning with them marks you as an amazing manager. I wouldn't say they were a given but they were favourites every time they played and thus any loss (including the final) would be an upset.

And yet, you'd provide no credit to Pep for actually coaching and shaping that team and its players, into the best team in the world? You believe it would have happened regardless?

This is a team that was in a heap before he came in btw.

I would say Bayern failure to win the CL under pep is more a black mark than winning it with barca was a gold star.

And yet his dominance of Bundesliga, in a different way, that's just expected?
So any manager who takes over Bayern and does not win the champions league in two seasons is a failure. Do you think that is really a fair assessment to make of any manager?

I haven't seen pep win anything that they weren't Strong favorites for.

The issue I take in this sort of analysis is that is excludes the manager from having any influence, what so ever, in the success or dominance that took place, or the reason they were favourites in the first place.

I think he is an excellent manager, and I wish he was united manager, but the trophies he's won are what would have been expected of him.

In fact, I would say city's end results last season should be considered a failure and hugely disappointing.

No disagreement there. I think our squad with Citys was and still is vastly superior to Chelsea's and we both blew it. City spectacularly imploded.

The issue I have with Pep critique is that it basically removes him entirely from the equation of the teams he manages becoming dominant or the favourites. As if everything is just in place already and he swannies in and sucks up all this false credit.

There is absolutely no guarantees of how a player will develop, or a team. Like Ferguson was the pivotal impact on Ronaldo's career, and many others, Pep was the cataclyst for the likes of Messi and other great players that came under his tutelage in that time.

You say you wish he was our manager, and he is an excellent manager. I agree with you. I was sick when he joined City, and I'm sick knowing he will never manager us. I believe he could do more with our squad and club if I'm honest, and it would be such a bigger thing and he could have a dynasty that eclipsed Fergie if he wanted, and I'll never fully understand why he went to City.

What do you think he would be doing with us at the moment. Both he and Mourinho have had the same time, pretty much the same spends and build somewhat different squads. We are the biggest club in England. Would he have an influence on proceedings or are you of the opinion he'd fail at United, because we arn't the definitive strong favourites?


I'm not being snarky or anything btw when I'm questioning back, feel your a pretty level headed cool poster, so genuinely interested in why you feel this way about him.

paulbok

J. Marston wrote: »

Screenshots of 3 year old posts? Chriiiiist. Did he delete the post? I can only see the quoted stuff.

Wonder if he has a file on me? I remember talking shít about Coutinho around 18 months ago.

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

And yet, you'd provide no credit to Pep for actually coaching and shaping that team and its players, into the best team in the world? You believe it would have happened regardless?

Didn't Rijkaard win the CL with a similar group? He's not a world class coach. United scrapped past them over 2 legs the season before pep took over. How bad were they when he took over?

I'm not saying Probus a bad manager - but i don't think barca winning the CL is proof of greatness. I'd be the same with Zidane. If you have the best players in the world, winning the top trophies is an expectation.

This is a team that was in a heap before he came in btw.


And yet his dominance of Bundesliga, in a different way, that's just expected?
So any manager who takes over Bayern and does not win the champions league in two seasons is a failure. Do you think that is really a fair assessment to make of any manager?

Winning the BL is not a tribute to his greatness. Haven't the same club won it most of the time?

He needed to win the CL there to really achieve something there, imo

The issue I take in this sort of analysis is that is excludes the manager from having any influence, what so ever, in the success or dominance that took place, or the reason they were favourites in the first place.

Again, I'm not saying he is crap. I think he is great, but winning with barca and Bayern was 100% expected - failing to win the league with those clubs has become a sackable offence. I don't think winning with them is remarkable.

Leicester winning the league is more impressive than city or united - so I r give more kudos to CR than I would pep, Jose or Conte winning the league. It's more impressive.

Same with Porto winning the CL, it's more impressive.

Not quite the same with inter, but more impressive than barca or real winning it.

You have favourites for things. The favourite winning it is, imo, far less impressive than an outsider winning it.

That isn't a comment on ability or input. I stand by Jose winning the CL with Porto is more impressive than pep winning it with Barcelona.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

And yet, you'd provide no credit to Pep for actually coaching and shaping that team and its players, into the best team in the world? You believe it would have happened regardless?

This is a team that was in a heap before he came in btw.


And yet his dominance of Bundesliga, in a different way, that's just expected?
So any manager who takes over Bayern and does not win the champions league in two seasons is a failure. Do you think that is really a fair assessment to make of any manager?


The issue I take in this sort of analysis is that is excludes the manager from having any influence, what so ever, in the success or dominance that took place, or the reason they were favourites in the first place.



No disagreement there. I think our squad with Citys was and still is vastly superior to Chelsea's and we both blew it. City spectacularly imploded.

The issue I have with Pep critique is that it basically removes him entirely from the equation of the teams he manages becoming dominant or the favourites. As if everything is just in place already and he swannies in and sucks up all this false credit.

There is absolutely no guarantees of how a player will develop, or a team. Like Ferguson was the pivotal impact on Ronaldo's career, and many others, Pep was the cataclyst for the likes of Messi and other great players that came under his tutelage in that time.

You say you wish he was our manager, and he is an excellent manager. I agree with you. I was sick when he joined City, and I'm sick knowing he will never manager us. I believe he could do more with our squad and club if I'm honest, and it would be such a bigger thing and he could have a dynasty that eclipsed Fergie if he wanted, and I'll never fully understand why he went to City.

What do you think he would be doing with us at the moment. Both he and Mourinho have had the same time, pretty much the same spends and build somewhat different squads. We are the biggest club in England. Would he have an influence on proceedings or are you of the opinion he'd fail at United, because we arn't the definitive strong favourites?


I'm not being snarky or anything btw when I'm questioning back, feel your a pretty level headed cool poster, so genuinely interested in why you feel this way about him.

That city team werent in a heap they came 1st and the 2nd the previous years and went to pot when they announced pep was taking over.

Not every Bayern team but a team which had won the treble the year previous to him taking over a team which he added many players to. Again there is no rebuilding job going on. He took over a fantastic side and got to add to it.

Now thats not to say he isn't a great manager but he has had an easier life as one more so then nearly every other manager. In terms of the personnel and finances he has landed himself in.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Didn't Rijkaard win the CL with a similar group? He's not a world class coach. United scrapped past them over 2 legs the season before pep took over. How bad were they when he took over?

He certainly did, and a pretty good team. This was the lineup, was the game where Larson came on and was brilliant



This was the team that played when he won his first Champions league, against us



They won the treble that season, becoming the first Spanish club to ever do so. That was his first season, which was also the end of a two year trophy drought under Rikjaard who had let standards slip, had lost control on some players and Real Madrid has re-asserted dominance in the rivalry.

I'm not saying Probus a bad manager - but i don't think barca winning the CL is proof of greatness. I'd be the same with Zidane. If you have the best players in the world, winning the top trophies is an expectation.

Greatness is maybe a strong word. Is that the issue though? You arn't convinced by the general "Pep is magical" stuff that goes on? Sure Barca had good players, but only in hindsight. Obviously we will never know what would have happened under another manager, but surely he gets credit for navigating them to that treble season? For the consistency in the champions league?

I guess we will fundamentally disagree in terms of top club managers. I don't believe players can just go on auto pilot and just win things without the correct guidance, instruction and coaching. Sure loads of people here bleeted on about how Moyes inherited a title winning team and used that as a stick to beat him with? Surely if thats the case, our glorious championship team should have gone on auto pilot in Moyes first season?

Winning the BL is not a tribute to his greatness. Haven't the same club won it most of the time?

Wrapping it up months in advance is a bit impressive though, no? Dortmund shat the bed while he was there, but in his first season with Bayern they were still a top team. Again greatness I see what you mean, it's not something I'd be blown away by, but it was still impressive.

Again, I'm not saying he is crap. I think he is great, but winning with barca and Bayern was 100% expected - failing to win the league with those clubs has become a sackable offence. I don't think winning with them is remarkable.

Yeah I Agree with you. It's not mind blowing stuff. But its still an accomplishment to actually win it, more so with Barca if I'm honest, Madrid are no soft touch. And that ties into how it was a good achievement that Jose won his La Liga during this Pep Barca dominance.

That ties into the current situation, again, Pep vs Mourinho. Guardiola was doing incredible stuff with Barcalona. There was plenty of excuses and acceptance around about "sure what can Madrid do". Well they did do it. And Jose figured it out and he made it happen. So I believe he wont use the excuse like some are about how good City are, he'll back himself to figure it out.

But Real Madrid hardcore fans, executives and the players definitely weren't accepting "oh well they are just amazing" and shrugging shoulders at what can you do. They expected better, they expect to win, and they got there in the end.

So while you can acknowledge and appreciate something spectacular is happening, or an anomaly of form, at a point you still look at your lub, your board, your chairman, your players and manager and ask "Well what are you going to do about it?"

That isn't a comment on ability or input. I stand by Jose winning the CL with Porto is more impressive than pep winning it with Barcelona.

It probably is, but it might also be somewhat tainted by how we saw that Pep Barca team develop. In a summer Pep flipped a club in turmoil and trophyless into treble winners.

Both are pretty substantial and impressive things to me, and thats why I always find the Jose vs Pep thing interesting, cause they are basically the same for me, bar some fundamental differences in terms of the football they operate. But they are very similar in so many ways they manage.

TheDoc

Deleted User wrote: »

That city team werent in a heap they came 1st and the 2nd the previous years and went to pot when they announced pep was taking over.

I didn't say they were, or are you just saying that?
Yeah it wasn't a bad squad, it wasn't great either mind you and I never subscribed to it. The City under Pellegrini did not scare me as much as the Mancini one, even though it had the same core, it just got a bit loose under Pellegrini.

Not every Bayern team but a team which had won the treble the year previous to him taking over a team which he added many players to. Again there is no rebuilding job going on. He took over a fantastic side and got to add to it.

Well that is sometimes the spoils of being a top manager. Moyes inherited a "championship" winning side, that his predecessor and outgoing Chairman proclaimed was a title winning squad for years to come and didn't require surgery. And Moyes ****ed it.

And we know why he ****ed it, because he was clearly brutal. But does that not mean that when managers inherit these good teams, and they continue success, does that not mean they are also, doing good work and being good?

Now thats not to say he isn't a great manager but he has had an easier life as one more so then nearly every other manager. In terms of the personnel and finances he has landed himself in.

The only "easy" part Pep had, was he got plucked into the Barca first team. But it wasn't based on his playing career, a stellar career, as a top player. He was working with the reserves, and absolutely making waves by his tactics, coaching and if I remember from what I had read, was absolutely crushing every team in his wake with his team.

Again it's kinda the issue I have or the question I can't get passed, the assumption being that what, of course he won things with Barca, look at the team he had.

A pretty basic thing for top coaches, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Van Gaal, Pep, likely Zidane going forward, as it has been for all the world class managers who moved clubs, is they all get the jobs that with it is inherintly a strong team, likely one of the biggest clubs in the respective league, and enough money and finances to shape it the way you want.

Guardiola earned and won his way into that bracket, where he will have the pick of top clubs with infinite resources until the day he retires. As has Jose, as have others. It's the benefit any top manager gets to enjoy that other managers are envious off.

And its actually the laughable part of the complaints you hear from your Pulis or Alardyce or Dyche when they are moaning about opportunities. These top coaches didn't actually get a freebie, or a free pass, or luck.

They displayed at different points or levels, clear ability and temperament, through success and actually winning things, or being so evidently brilliant, that they earned their shot.

Is Maximus A.W.O.L.?

Bridge93

Only 7/8 times in premier league history have united had more points after 14 games than they have now. Of those a further 3 are a point better off. 93/94 when united had 37 points was their best start and a league record until this year.

Anyone who thinks united should be better off or Jose is under pressure is kidding themselves. Historically they couldn't be doing much more. City this season have been at a level never seen before and would be 3 points ahead of the previous best start ever.

For comparison the Chelsea record points team of 04/05 had 33 points at this stage. The Arsenal invincibles had 34. United have 32. They and Jose are doing just fine. If they don't win the league but keep this rate up then you just have to hold your hands up and acknowledge what city will have done

Natalie looking amazing this evening on SSN

Jayop

She could announce that Liverpool and city have been kicked out of the league and I don't think it would even register.


mesmerizing.

Great pic to zoom in on!

jayo26

Hayley says hello

Jayop

zorro2566 wrote: »

Great pic to zoom in on!

Zooming in not required. Not like they're hard to see!!

bangkok

Boob thread is that way---->>

Trigger

Bridge93 wrote: »

Only 7/8 times in premier league history have united had more points after 14 games than they have now. Of those a further 3 are a point better off. 93/94 when united had 37 points was their best start and a league record until this year.

Anyone who thinks united should be better off or Jose is under pressure is kidding themselves. Historically they couldn't be doing much more. City this season have been at a level never seen before and would be 3 points ahead of the previous best start ever.

For comparison the Chelsea record points team of 04/05 had 33 points at this stage. The Arsenal invincibles had 34. United have 32. They and Jose are doing just fine. If they don't win the league but keep this rate up then you just have to hold your hands up and acknowledge what city will have done

Just to add onto this, if United continued on their Ppg average they would finish on 86 points which would have won you the league in 13 of the 25 seasons.. it’s not unreasonable to say we have had a pretty decent start

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Boob thread is that way---->>

Link....

pjohnson

Ugh ffs its the Manchester United thread.

Keep it on topic

brinty

Somehow I'll get the blame for all of this!!!!!
and where's my girls
Scar JO, Anna and J Law....

C'mon people you know the rules...

Great result last night all told.

Trigger

brinty wrote: »

Somehow I'll get the blame for all of this!!!!!
and where's my girls
Scar JO, Anna and J Law....

C'mon people you know the rules...

Great result last night all told.

For who?

brinty

astradave wrote: »

For who?

Me

15 year anniversary of meeting Ms Brinty

bangkok

See we are heavily linked with celtics dembele last week. Dont think its been mentioned here.

jayo26

bangkok wrote: »

See we are heavily linked with celtics dembele last week. Dont think its been mentioned here.

Who actually heavily linked us? I didn't see it anywhere.

bangkok

jayo26 wrote: »

Who actually heavily linked us? I didn't see it anywhere.

Was in l'equipe and i think the guardian.

Also newcastle made loan enquiry for luke shaw but utd want 20m

bucketybuck

Also newcastle made loan enquiry for luke shaw but utd want 20m

If this particular baseless and unsubstantiated rumour was actually true, I have to say that I think that is a good move.

I would almost be willing to bet that a loan move for Shaw would be underwhelming, I'd have little faith that he moves anywhere and starts putting in big performances. An underwhelming loan move won't lead to any bids, whereas insisting on a straight sale might result in some club taking a punt on him.

I'm pretty sure Jose wants him gone, not just disappearing for a while then slinking back to run down his contract.

~Rebel~

bucketybuck wrote: »

If this particular baseless and unsubstantiated rumour was actually true, I have to say that I think that is a good move.

I would almost be willing to bet that a loan move for Shaw would be underwhelming, I'd have little faith that he moves anywhere and starts putting in big performances. An underwhelming loan move won't lead to any bids, whereas insisting on a straight sale might result in some club taking a punt on him.

I'm pretty sure Jose wants him gone, not just disappearing for a while then slinking back to run down his contract.

I dunno... it's a world cup year, 6 months of decent performances on loan would get him into that squad without much trouble. As it stands, he's not going to Russia. That's motivation enough to get him playing well enough to be sold imo.

Rayne Wooney

You’re assuming he has motivation

Trigger

Now this is what I like to hear from Dave

http://sportwitness.co.uk/i-ask-de-gea-comfortable-man-united-turned-real-madrid/

The Spanish newspaper explain the last time Florentino Pérez made an attempt to sign him via Jorge Mendes, the Red Devils’ star told the super-agent: “Real Madrid? I’m the goalkeeper of Manchester United and Spain. What more could I ask for?”

~Rebel~

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

You’re assuming he has motivation

Well, I mean, if he's not motivated to go to a World Cup, then I can't see how he was motivated to play well for Southampton in the first place.

Billy86

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Well, I mean, if he's not motivated to go to a World Cup, then I can't see how he was motivated to play well for Southampton in the first place.

It happens to players sometimes, hit the top and think they've done and proven all they need to. Some players also just lose a bit of that psychotic level of dedication needed at the very top end as they get deeper into their 20s and develop a more rounded life than when they were in their teens.

It's a shame because I had really high hopes for him and generally love those types of signings (because when they work, you get a DDG or Ronaldo) but I'm done with Shaw, personally.

Cantona's Collars

The Star saying that Jose is looking to Bryan Cristante of Atalanta to replace Fellaini.

I don't follow Serie A like I used to so I have to admit I know nothing about him.

Jayop

If that quote from Dave is true it's the best thing to happen in ages. Great news that he's so committed.

TheDoc

TheDoc wrote: »

I didn't say they were, or are you just saying that?

Apologies there doc I thought you were talking about barcelona not city.

The_Kew_Tour

I'm loving a few Arsenal fans hoping they make theEmirates a fortress tomorrow. When did that start happening.

Hope we stuff it up their arse tomorrow(can I say that?)

ElChe32

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm loving a few Arsenal fans hoping they make theEmirates a fortress tomorrow. When did that start happening.

Hope we stuff it up their arse tomorrow(can I say that?)

Adamocovic

Arsenal have been playing some brilliant football as of late. Ozil has been very good.

I'm a bit concerned about tomorrow. A win would be huge.
Improving our record against the top teams under Mourinho is a must.

Against (Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City):

Played: 13
Won: 3
Lost: 5
Drawn: 5
Goals Scored:8
Goals Conceded:13

Obviously they're tough teams to go up against but if we are to have ambitions of challenging for the title we need to be taking points off our rivals. Beating an in form Arsenal will be tricky but doing so would be huge for the season in terms of not only points but confidence.

Cantona's Collars

Sunday's game will be the first billion pound game.

"The claim is based on the combined turnover of the two rivals, with Arsenal posting revenues of £424m in 2016/17 while United earned a record £581m, taking the clubs' total to £1.05bn."

https://www.rte.ie/amp/924089/

jayo26

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Sunday's game will be the first billion pound game.

"The claim is based on the combined turnover of the two rivals, with Arsenal posting revenues of £424m in 2016/17 while United earned a record £581m, taking the clubs' total to £1.05bn."

https://www.rte.ie/amp/924089/

Quick heads up pal game is on Saturday evening

Trigger

jayo26 wrote: »

Quick heads up pal game is on Saturday evening

Shouldn’t have said anything and he would have rocked up to watch it late as usual

jayo26

astradave wrote: »

Shouldn’t have said anything and he would have rocked up to watch it late as usual

No he would of turned up on Monday then

J. Marston

Adamocovic wrote: »

Arsenal have been playing some brilliant football as of late. Ozil has been very good.

I'm a bit concerned about tomorrow. A win would be huge.
Improving our record against the top teams under Mourinho is a must.



Obviously they're tough teams to go up against but if we are to have ambitions of challenging for the title we need to be taking points off our rivals. Beating an in form Arsenal will be tricky but doing so would be huge for the season in terms of not only points but confidence.

That record is infinitely worse when you look at recent away games against those sides with Mourinho...

26/04/15 Arsenal 0 Chelsea 0
16/08/15 City 3 Chelsea 0
29/11/15 Spurs 0 Chelsea 0
17/10/16 Liverpool 0 United 0
23/10/16 Chelsea 4 United 0
27/04/17 City 0 United 0
07/05/17 Arsenal 2 United 0
14/05/17 Spurs 2 United 1
14/10/17 Liverpool 0 United 0

Read more at https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/nine-games-no-wins-one-goal-mourinhos-dwindling-away-record-against-top-six#oVMUZPB7hQOEUpJk.99

9 games. 1 goal. 0 wins.

He needs to make a statement with a win tomorrow, badly.

Robson99

J. Marston wrote: »

That record is infinitely worse when you look at recent away games against those sides with Mourinho...



9 games. 1 goal. 0 wins.

He needs to make a statement with a win tomorrow, badly.

Aaah dont worry about it sure havent we been a joy to watch and havent we scored over 30 goals already this season. We are just unluck that City have been so poxy
Seriously it a terrible record and highlights his negativity in the big games

Trigger

Edit: actually NVM not worth it

Adamocovic

Robson99 wrote: »

Aaah dont worry about it sure havent we been a joy to watch and havent we scored over 30 goals already this season. We are just unluck that City have been so poxy
Seriously it a terrible record and highlights his negativity in the big games

I agree it's an area that is in need of a lot of improvement but I wouldn't belittle the other positive achievements.

At times this year we've looked very good but the record against the top clubs is worrying. With our record I'm a little surprised some people are so confident going in against an in-form Arsenal.

Two weekends against two of our main rivals. The next two games are huge for this season in my opinion. Not only are the results important but the way Mourinho chooses to address the games.

Adamocovic

astradave wrote: »

Edit: actually NVM not worth it

Well damn. Now I wish there was an option to view edit history :P

jayo26

Robson99 wrote: »

Aaah dont worry about it sure havent we been a joy to watch and havent we scored over 30 goals already this season. We are just unluck that City have been so poxy
Seriously it a terrible record and highlights his negativity in the big games

How about highlighting his success and trophy haul instead of worrying about 9 games over the course of two year????

How about mentioning in the length of time them nine games were played he has won a league title and a domestic cup and European cup competition.

How about he has done a pretty decent job so far of rebuilding the squad and getting them playing a decent enough style of play in comparison to what we were served up 3 years prior.

Oh no we will concentrate on a statistic that while could be better hasn't stopped him from winning stuff!!!!

pjohnson

jayo26 wrote: »

How about highlighting his success and trophy haul instead of worrying about 9 games over the course of two year????

How about mentioning in the length of time them nine games were played he has won a league title and a domestic cup and European cup competition.

How about he has done a pretty decent job so far of rebuilding the squad and getting them playing a decent enough style of play in comparison to what we were served up 3 years prior.

Oh no we will concentrate on a statistic that while could be better hasn't stopped him from winning stuff!!!!

We are in crisis.

Robson99

pjohnson wrote: »

#MourinhoOut. Are you booking the plane to fly over the stadium?

Are you old enough to remember that?

Peps away record via top 6 since he's been here.

6 games. Scored 6 conceded 8. 7/18 points

pjohnson

Robson99 wrote: »

Are you old enough to remember that?

Dont worry lad not everyone is a child

You cant seem to remember last season!

jayo26

https://www.instagram.com/p/BcKSwcfnNf6/

Deserved this so much great turnaround.