Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2017

Delboy5

‘United had stopped in time. There was no evolution’
DUNCAN CASTLES·THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2017
The Sunday Times Published: 10 September 2017

Jose Mourinho has given himself three years to transform a club that had become stuck in the past
“I manage big clubs, but I always find them in very similar situations... I get the giants, but the giants are difficult when they are in trouble.”
Jose Mourinho has a knack for perception-changing statements. A fortnight ago, just after his current giant extended their impressive Premier League opening, came some words that made you reconsider the challenges of his past three appointments: Real Madrid, Chelsea, Manchester United. One major reconstruction job after another.
When we sit down to talk football at Carrington, the first question selects itself. “Just how much trouble were Manchester United in when you arrived here?”
Mourinho starts his reply slowly, picking his words deliberately. He won’t stop speaking for another 10 minutes. “Well,” he says. “The story was very rich. And that story had — an end. Then was the beginning of a period that hurts more because of the past. It was the weight of the past on the shoulders of everybody. Players, managers, everybody in the club. Even boards, even probably owners, because when you are used to win and win and win, and suddenly you stop, it’s like a heavy burden. But there is always a reason behind that. And for me the easiest way to look at it is just to say the best manager of the history of the Premier League is gone. It’s the simplest way to analyse it, and it’s much more deep than that.”
By their current manager’s analysis, Manchester United lost Sir Alex Ferguson, lost the habit of winning and lost the infrastructure that supports a winning team. “There was an evolution in the other clubs; there was no evolution in this club. In all the areas that make a team successful I think we stopped in time. When I say ‘the club’, I say the football team and what surrounds the football team was in trouble, big trouble. Not the club at all. Because the club is much more than results — it’s the fanbase, it’s the passion around the world, it’s the business, it’s the commercial, it’s the merchandising. And a club like Manchester United as a club can be one, two, three, four, five, 10 years without winning, Manchester United will always be Manchester United and as a club will never be in trouble.
“The football team I think clearly there was an evolution in other clubs, and that was quite an empty period in this club with no evolution in areas that are important for the football team, and that was the first step to try to bring the football team in the right direction.
I cannot say that I have ever had better guys that Matic in my career
“Of course in the first season I was trying to improve [this], but I also felt the club need to feed — at least emotionally — the fans, the self-esteem of the players, the motivation of the people. And you can’t do that without some success. That’s why I fought hard for trophies. And that’s why I prefer a Europa League victory than a third or fourth spot in the championship. Because the best way to accelerate the process is to do the process winning. Because winning gets you smiles, you get better atmosphere, you create better empathy with the people, you can demand more from the people, you can persuade the people to give more. And that was a very successful way of work in the past season, because last season was important, not just to bring the club back to the Champions League, not just by winning something as a very important target, but do that at the time you are improving the structures.
“Today we have better working conditions, a better medical department, a better analysis department, a better scouting department, a better media department, and in many cases we did it without changing the people, which is quite important. Because you can arrive in a club and change everything, and another thing is to try and improve it, but not in an easy way. But we try to, I don’t even like to say improve, it’s to adapt them to my way of thinking. So they have to learn with me how to work the way I want to work. It was a big challenge; it is a big challenge. We accelerate the process exactly because of that smile that comes with the good results, but it’s still a process that is going on.”
Mourinho was offered the United job in May 2016, six months after Chelsea sacked the Premier League’s champion manager. He signed for three seasons, a year shorter than his contracts at a series of previous clubs, but a duration he considers “the correct timing to put the football team on the right track”. Three years, Mourinho calculated, would be needed to rebuild United’s squad into one capable of challenging at the highest level of the European game. He is a manager in the Ferguson sense of the word; not just an elite coach, but an individual who thrives on running the football side of a club from top to bottom. It is no coincidence that Mourinho’s record in the transfer market from Internazionale through Real Madrid and Chelsea is superior to his peers. His explanation of the United rebuild provides a sense as to why.
“I think three summers are the period because it’s in the summer where you design the future of your squad. In January you get a specific player who is in the end of his contract, you can get him in better conditions, or it’s an emergency buy. But the design, the architecture of the future of your team is made in the summer. So three summers are the ideal to put the team back on track, but also to make the whole structure solid and working like a perfect machine, giving to the football team the best conditions — not just for now, but for the future.
“There are players that can change the destiny of the team, players that can be crucial in the development of a team. There are others that are very important for the quality and stability of the squad. And there are other players you don’t need to get because you have them already.
“When I arrived we were in need of some personality and quality that could give us a sense of a personality the club lost in the past years. The club agreed totally with that [Paul] Pogba dimension, which was a player that could be a great at every level for the next 10 years. We go for Zlatan [Ibrahimovic] knowing he was not a player for the next five or six years, but we thought we need that player that arrives and feels, ‘The club is big, but I’m also big’. A player that wouldn’t need any second to adapt to the dimension and the pressure of the club.
“Mkhi [Henrikh Mkhitaryan] and [Eric] Bailly had qualities I thought the team didn’t have. Mkhi took a little bit of time, but the team was lacking a player with his multifunctionality in every attacking area. And a fast, strong central defender. Again we are not going to compare with Rio or Vidic or these monsters that we had, but a player also with good personality and adapted to the Premier League.
“In the second season, we know that the team by the human point of view is a very special group of players. And that makes it more difficult because you cannot bring a very good player that is not a very good man. You cannot gamble. Yesterday I was watching some programme in Sky with [Thierry] Henry, Roy Keane, Kenny Dalglish, and Kenny Dalglish said, ‘We all three won a lot of trophies and for sure we cannot remember a big trophy in a team that was not an amazing family with a great dressing room’. He’s totally right. In my career the biggest achievements were when the group was a special group.
“[Romelu] Lukaku was my player as a kid. He left the club because at that time he was thinking he deserves more opportunity from me, but he’s such a good guy that during these years we were in close contact with a very good relationship because probably he understood that I couldn’t accelerate his timings at that moment. So I knew he was an intelligent guy with a very positive attitude. Very close to Paul, and to be close to Paul you have to be like Paul. You have to be funny, you have to be open, you have to enjoy life, but a good professional. I knew that the man was there.
“[Nemanja] Matic, I cannot say that I had better guys than him in my career. And he has with me something which marks forever, which was a match where he was on the bench, I play him minute 45 and I took him off minute 70, 75. The press wants a story, the press wants blood. My blood, or his blood, or both. He was really sad. I was also sad because it’s not something nice and it’s something that I did only twice in my career. But the next day he comes to me and he says, ‘I’m not happy, but it’s my fault. I’m not happy with what you did to me, but it’s my fault, because the way I was playing I can understand the change. So let’s keep going.’
“We didn’t keep going for a long time because a few weeks later I was sacked. But again he was one of ‘my guys’, was one of the guys that we kept close during these years even not working together. So I know that the big man is there, even with more maturity.
“[Victor] Lindelof was the only one that I didn’t work with. But in Portugal I control. I control inside information. I know the qualities of the people, I know many things about social life, about private life, I know because even without working for that, the informations are arriving.”
That trio arrived at a training ground intentionally redecorated with “new pictures on the walls of my players with the Europa League, with the Capital Cup, at Wembley, against Amsterdam”. Two major trophies plus a Community Shield gave the lie to a season in which Mourinho was meant to have been surpassed by a ‘new generation’ of coaches — Antonio Conte, Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp, Mauricio Pochettino. Added to the cliched litany of criticism of allegedly overly defensive tactics and refusal to promote youth was a new theory that Mourinho was poor at coaching attacking play. His tactical plans and methods in this area were written off as “basic” and “a world away from the modern ‘automatisms’ of Conte”.
The critique amuses Mourinho. “Maybe the drones are working because our training sessions are behind closed doors,” he smiles. “Probably this season they don’t say that because we are playing very well. Probably this season they are saying we are spending lots of time working defensively because we kept a few clean sheets. I don’t know. I don’t care.
“Our method is global at every level, and you cannot develop a team if you don’t develop different phases of the game. The past two champions in the Premier League were super defensive teams. Super defensive teams, with a killer counterattack. So be defensive and have a killer counterattack was the way to win the past two Premier Leagues.
“I know that sometimes that becomes quite trendy because success makes people try to repeat it, but we try to go in a different direction, playing the football we think is adapted to the qualities of our players. And we are not going to defend with seven behind. To play five defenders and two defensive midfield players, seven in a low block, we are going to try not to do. Sometimes the opponents are so powerful and so strong in a certain day that if you have to do it an isolated case you have to do it. I have no problems with that. But we are going to try not to play in that way, in spite of the fact that we know in the Premier League in the past couple of seasons it was the way to reach success.”
Success has always been the best prism through which to analyse Mourinho’s methods and actions. We discuss a story Patrice Evra tells of winning the Champions League, celebrating on the pitch, then almost immediately feeling the thrill of victory replacing itself with the desire to win again. “That’s our nature,” says Mourinho. “And sometimes when we are not in the best moment, or we are in a difficult moment, or a couple of defeats, a little bit of sadness, sometimes we are in between us trying to take some of the bad feeling away, remembering, ‘Hey, we won 20-something titles. Hey, come on, we are still the best. Come on. We just won a title four months ago. Come on.’ But in the end we look to each other and we say, ‘This is not us’. We are unhappy and nothing is going to change. So don’t try to disguise, because this is not us.
“This summer I went to my house in Portugal, I was in my office, I was looking to the walls. Some cups, medals, shirts, some history and I was thinking ‘F***, we did a lot’. But it’s just a moment. The season starts and you go again the same way. You know it’s the kind of job that you can last forever if you want. And I want. When you are happy with what you did, when you don’t dream again, when you don’t want to win a fourth Premier League, when you don’t want to win a fifth Capital Cup, when you don’t want to win a third Champions League. When you don’t want, then enjoy life and stay in Los Angeles. Don’t come back after the pre-season and get the sun.
“This is not us.”

bangkok

As was mentioned earlier pogba hasnt just started the season well but was excellent towards the end of last season and was excellent all throughout the europa league winning the best player award in the europa league as well.

Some of the older generation will never take to him as he is a bit of a free spirit and likes his fancy coloured haircuts and boots etc but all that matters is he is doing the business on the pitch which he is.

For mourinho to give him the captains armband as well the other night tells you all you need to know about him. He is class

Keano

https://twitter.com/utdxtra/status/908313541857423360

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Any thoughts on Martial?

I thought it was just more of the same from him, a whole load of not very much. And that at home against a very, very poor side, what better chance does he need to get out and fill his boots? Its always the same though, a few glimpses of talent and then disappear for the majority of the game.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Some good runs and some nice balls inside. Its all very meh isn't it, with the real problem being that its all too familiar.

We should be expecting far more from him, but just as its been for 2 years now we get another anemic performance and a list of excuses. Thats not aimed at you, it was all over the match thread too, but this excuse of him of the ball never going left just makes me roll my eyes, its as if poor Martial can't catch a break with big bad Ashley Young coming in and stealing all the passes.

I thought he was very poor on Tuesday night. I'm not sure if it's the way the team was set-up or not, but it seemed that nothing was happening down our left side especially in the first half. Again, it could have been manager's instructions, but why would he put Martial on and not look to utilize him and his strengths and just keep our attacks going mostly down the right? I would have liked Martial to look for the ball a bit more...a good bit more. I felt he wasn't doing that and was nearly trying to hide at times.

Apart from a few couple of nice touches and dribbles, I thought the game passed by him. I was getting frustrated with Mkhi at times, but he was far more visible compared to Martial and seemed to be trying harder too. I was getting frustrated with Mkhi because I at least noticed him, that wasn't always the case for Martial.

He did have a bad game the other night, and there's no shortage of critics looking to point that out. It's just that those critics are almost nowhere to be found when he actually does some good, like in most of his appearances so far this season before the Basel game. That's not directed at you buckety, you're seeking discussion, just my recollection of the match thread.

"We now get another anemic performance and list of excuses" - It was a poor performance, anemic if you like, but I really don't think it was 'another' in terms of how his season has gone so far. As for excuses, I'd be a fan who wants to see him do well for us, but I can't come up with anything for his poor performance against Basel. I mentioned manager's instructions as a devil's advocate line, but I really don't think that was the case on Tuesday night. We could have let Ashley do his thing on the right, and have Martial work the left, that wasn't happening though and I think it was player error/disinterest rather than tactical instruction.

I think if he continues on the positives he displayed before Tuesday night's game, he'll be fine. If Tuesday night's performance becomes the norm for this season, and therefore an almost mirror-image of last season, well then his days at the club will rightly be numbered.

I think he's alright at the moment though. However, games like Basel where he actually gets a start at home against weaker opposition and then fails to shine could eventually be his downfall at the club.

A few things outside of Martial as an individual player but which have to mentioned - I do like the competition between he and Rashford. I think it's helping Rashford improve and Martial (before Basel) has been doing alright. They have 2 goals and an assist each in the league so far, with Rashford having a CL goal to add to his own tally. 2 players who definitely need to improve on last season's goals and assists. Whatever about Martial, I think this competition has lit a fire under Rashford.

Also, given the state of our LB position at the moment, it's hard to know just how good or bad our left side potentially is and what disadvantages, if any/many, our LW player faces by having basically zero help on the flank. Although now that I mention that, I thought Blind did well in the Basel game.

Overall, I'm still concerned about Martial and even was before the Basel performance, but I think that game was the exception to his form so far this season. My worry comes from the fact that that form could turn poor very quickly and that in essence is Martial's problem. When he's on form, he's hotter than my Swedish cousins. When he's not on form and is blowing cold, he's the Night King. More consistency from him is needed where performances like those against Basel are expunged completely.

He doesn't need to be giving Martin Tyler seizures every game, but performances like Tuesday night's just can't be happening 2 years into his United career.

adox

bangkok wrote: »

Some of the older generation will never take to him as he is a bit of a free spirit and likes his fancy coloured haircuts and boots etc but all that matters is he is doing the business on the pitch which he is.

Such utter drivel.

Jayop

adox wrote: »

Such utter drivel.

Is it? His haircut was literally used as a pejorative in this thread a few pages back. Personally I think Bankok is 100% right in what he says, some people can't see past the haircuts/boots/dabbing and his personality to see that there really is an excellent footballer there.

thelad95 wrote: »

I know I'll get slated for this but Pogba hasn't exactly set the world alight this season so he won't be terribly missed. Yes he helped contribute to the routs of West Ham and Swansea but apart from that he's just clowned around with his stupid haircuts again. Stoke on Saturday is the kind of game you really expect a player of his calibre too step up, take control of the game and steer the ship home but instead he was largely anonymous. He didn't have a bad game as such just didn't do anything out of the ordinary.

I'd have been a lot more concerned for us if matic or fellaini were out for a few weeks than Pogba.

jayo26

adox wrote: »

Such utter drivel.

If it is drivel then why is it always pogbas hair or celebrations that are the first things pundits and fans use against him after a bad performance.

The fact is that pogba is a marketing tool for him and the club he does a lot of marketing and PR work but it has no bearings on his game but people make it out he puts in more effort at that then he does training or playing.

Maybe you don't have a strong opinion against it but plenty do so I wouldn't be so quick to call it drivel.

Lord TSC

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Thats the crux of Souness' Youtube comment.

jayo26

Jayop wrote: »

Is it? His haircut was literally used as a pejorative in this thread a few pages back. Personally I think Bankok is 100% right in what he says, some people can't see past the haircuts/boots/dabbing and his personality to see that there really is an excellent footballer there.

jayo26 wrote: »

If it is drivel then why is it always pogbas hair or celebrations that are the first things pundits and fans use against him after a bad performance.

The fact is that pogba is a marketing tool fir him and the club he does a lot of marketing and PR work but it has no bearings on his game but people make it out he puts in more effort at that then he does training or playing.

Maybe you don't have a strong opinion against it but plenty do so I wouldn't be so quick to call it drivel.

Are you sure your not Me??????

adox

Jayop wrote: »

Is it? His haircut was literally used as a pejorative in this thread a few pages back. Personally I think Bankok is 100% right in what he says, some people can't see past the haircuts/boots/dabbing and his personality to see that there really is an excellent footballer there.

Some of the older generation?? Do we know how old the poster is?

Jayop

adox wrote: »

Some of the older generation?? Do we know how old the poster is?

In general young people won't give a crap about haircuts etc. but those from a time when white boots were fancy dan material would be more inclined imo to talk like that poster did. It's not that every old timer would be unaccepting but a lot will be.

I don't know how old he is, but reading what he said, I'm making an assumption.

Trigger

adox wrote: »

Some of the older generation?? Do we know how old the poster is?

This.. "some of the older generation" is the drivel.. why not say "some fans"..

Jayop

astradave wrote: »

This.. "some of the older generation" is the drivel.. why not say "some fans"..

Because in my experience the ones who complain about his haircuts/dabbings etc are older guys. I've yet to hear a teenager moan about his style.

Trigger

Jayop wrote: »

Because in my experience the ones who complain about his haircuts/dabbings etc are older guys. I've yet to hear a teenager moan about his style.

There is plenty of "young people" that think he should concentrate more on the football than the hair style.

Mind you, I couldn't give a **** about his hair or what colour boots he wears, if he doesn't do the business on the pitch(and he has this season imo) he should be criticised accordingly.. but mind you, this is an Epic flip flop from Bangkok who did nothing but critise Memphis on the same thing, his hair and clothes. his wording in the post is wrong and should not be generalising like that and should be called on that

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

This.. "some of the older generation" is the drivel.. why not say "some fans"..

Ok some fans have issues with it.

pjohnson

Jayop wrote: »

Because in my experience the ones who complain about his haircuts/dabbings etc are older guys. I've yet to hear a teenager moan about his style.

I'm 20 and think Dabbing should be an automatic 3 match ban for utter gobshitery. Does this mean I'm an auld one?

bangkok

I remember a while back, carrick dabbed for his kids in the stand at his testimonial and some fans were critisising him saying he should have more sense and he looked stupid (that was before they knew the children wanted him to do it)

bangkok

pjohnson wrote: »

I'm 20 and think Dabbing should be an automatic 3 match ban for utter gobshitery. Does this mean I'm an auld one?

You do enjoy emmerdale, coronation street and fair city so i would say yes

pjohnson

bangkok wrote: »

You do enjoy emmerdale, coronation street and fair city so i would say yes

Meh fair point. In my defence I have to do something when I'm hungover.

AND I also realised I got the maths wrong and am 22 not 20 so my cognitive skills are gone to pot. Oh I've learned too much about myself in these last two posts.

Jayop

pjohnson wrote: »

Meh fair point. In my defence I have to do something when I'm hungover.

AND I also realised I got the maths wrong and am 22 not 20 so my cognitive skills are gone to pot. Oh I've learned too much about myself in these last two posts.

:pac:

Yeah if you worry yourself about dabbing then you're old as fk!

I'm not exactly teenager-young, but not exactly adox-ancient :pac:

If I was pressed on it, I wouldn't be a fan of dabbing or having a big red streak through my hair (blond or blue was more my thing back in the day). But the day I let any of that affect or drive my opinion on a player's ability is the day I lose my understanding of the game.

The main thing I take from seeing players like Pogba and Lingard do things I wouldn't do myself is that our players are happy and have a bond.

That doesn't mean we can't criticise or give our opinion, but using such things as a stick to beat a player or his footballing ability with are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. And it's not an age-exclusive thing in my own experience.

As for Sourness, his insistence on leading the post-match narrative around a player who played less than 20 minutes was a fúcking waste of airtime. Not that it needed clarifying, but it further paints him as the bitter personality that he is. Even the RTE host had to remind him... "Just to clarify, we are talking about a guy here who went off after 20 minutes..." but Neil Lennon went on to double-down on the shíte that Souness was spewing.

beno619

Jayop wrote: »

Is it? His haircut was literally used as a pejorative in this thread a few pages back. Personally I think Bankok is 100% right in what he says, some people can't see past the haircuts/boots/dabbing and his personality to see that there really is an excellent footballer there.

Lazy defence. I just want to see him making a difference in games like last weekend and vs the top 6.

Jayop

beno619 wrote: »

Lazy defence. I just want to see him making a difference in games like last weekend and vs the top 6.

That's fine, and you're as entitled to give your opinion as everyone else and if I think you're wrong we'll debate it. But people in here slabbering about his haircut is hard to listen to if I'm honest.

Again, he was good against Stoke. It's not his fault that our two central defenders made big errors to concede goals.

He had the 3rd most touches on the pitch after Valencia and Bailly. 85% passing accuracy, 3 key passes.

Who scored had him as the highest rated United player and only the Skoke keeper and the lad who scored 2 got better.

beno619

Jayop wrote: »

That's fine, and you're as entitled to give your opinion as everyone else and if I think you're wrong we'll debate it. But people in here slabbering about his haircut is hard to listen to if I'm honest.

This haircut business is rubbish deflection, none of the regulars here have mentioned it.

Again, he was good against Stoke. It's not his fault that our two central defenders made big errors to concede goals.

He was fine, not a stand out performance and it was the type of game where you need your elite players to step up and make the difference. Bringing up the individual mistakes made by the CB's has nothing to do with assessing Pogba's performance.

He had the 3rd most touches on the pitch after Valencia and Bailly. 85% passing accuracy, 3 key passes.

Who scored had him as the highest rated United player and only the Skoke keeper and the lad who scored 2 got better.

That's all grand but once again I feel he hasn't lived up to his billing.

bangkok

beno619 wrote: »

That's all grand but once again I feel he hasn't lived up to his billing.

Best player in europa league last season, united player of the month for august. Top of whoscored ratings for this season so far and top of the sky sports power rankings also. Dominating for france as well at international level.

jayo26

beno619 wrote: »

That's all grand but once again I feel he hasn't lived up to his billing.

What's his billing? It's not pogbas fault he was the most expensive player in the world?

beno619

jayo26 wrote: »

What's his billing? It's not pogbas fault he was the most expensive player in the world?

bangkok wrote: »

Best player in europa league last season, united player of the month for august. Top of whoscored ratings for this season so far and top of the sky sports power rankings also. Dominating for france as well at international level.

Jayop

beno619 wrote: »

That's all grand but once again I feel he hasn't lived up to his billing.

It's not rubbish deflection when it's exactly the post on here, in this thread that started this whole conversation.

And of course when you score 2 goals away from home in a notoriously hard place to score goals then it's the defenders who made individual errors that cost us the win that should be taking the heat. Or maybe the striker who missed a sitter at 2-2.

Pogba was very good against Stoke.

Pass to Lukaku 1.18
Pass to Valencia 1.45
pass to Lukaku 1.55
Scored the goal that deflected off Rashford so was given to him 2.50
Excellent dribble around 2 in midfield and pass forward 3.20
Excellent pass to Mkhi (I think who was just off) 3.35
Great pass (can't tell to who) 6.57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKt_J886SA

Watch the whole video. He made almost 70 passes in that game and there was only one bad one. I'd say about half of them were bringing the team forward. He held the ball up well too.

He did play a little deeper than the first few games but that was because Stoke had 10 men behind the ball almost every time he got it and they are one of the most organised defenses in the league.


So yeah he didn't single handedly win the game for us or dribble round 6 and score a worldie that some people seem to expect before they call it a good performance from him, but he was very very good against Stoke.

jayo26

beno619 wrote: »

I didn't ask you to quote Bangkok I asked what's his billing? What do you expect him to do and why?

S.M.B.

TheDoc wrote: »

Pogba vs De Bruyne.

I think Pep has struck a wonder move putting him into midfield. I think De Bruyne is a fantastic player, probably been the best player in the league for about two seasons now and the level he operates at is unbelievable. Really, really rate him as one of the leagues best.

It's weird when you consider De Bruyne moved for a big fee too at the time with some eyebrows raised, but he has just won people over with awesome performances and contributions. Pogba will do that in time. The injury was terrible timing, as he started the season well and it will be a disruption. Hopefully he come back firing.

I'm sure Pogba will win over people eventually, he is an incredible midfielder with incredible talent. But he does need to just operate consistently in terms of a high level, and really influence games. Which he has been doing. De Bruyne is also very influential in big games.

I'd have KDB ahead of Pogba, and probably consider him the best midfielder in the league now that he has moved in there, but Pogba isn't far behind. And he probably, nor we should, be worried about him being the best or comparisons to others. There are games where he will be shackled by Jose, which Pep will never do with his CM's like De Bruyne, aslong as Pogba is producing and being productive to victories, that is all that matters really, and thus far that has been the case.

This this this. Couldn't agree more.

And while others are correct to say that KDBs reputation keeps the naysayers away, that reputation is built on 2 years of extremely consistent high quality performances and hasn't just materialised from out of thin air.

Unfortunately for Pogba, when United struggle, Pogba rarely has much influence on a game. That can often be in some of our tougher games. Again, while Pogba may be under appreciated by some, that opinion isn't entirely based on begrudgery or ignorance.

Jayop

A few things are or should be indisputable.

1) Pogba has been very very good this season albeit against weak opposition so far
2) He struggled last year to impose himself in a lot of the games against the top 5 teams
3) He did play well in big games for us last year, especially in europe
4) He's only going to get better

A few things that are more my option.

1) He's our most important player and the only person apart from Lukaku who we have no real cover for what he gives.
2) As we improve this season he will look much better including in the big games
3) A lot of the people who don't appreciate what he does in games, for example against Stoke are looking at the team performance or the result over his individual contributions.

bangkok

S.M.B. wrote: »

This this this. Couldn't agree more.

And while others are correct to say that KDBs reputation keeps the naysayers away, that reputation is built on 2 years of extremely consistent high quality performances and hasn't just materialised from out of thin air.

Unfortunately for Pogba, when United struggle, Pogba rarely has much influence on a game. That can often be in some of our tougher games. Again, while Pogba may be under appreciated by some, that opinion isn't entirely based on begrudgery or ignorance.

Matic for example before we signed him there was a lot of people that wanted fabinho instead, said matic was average, he would be an underwhelming signing bla bla bla and this was a player playing week in week out in the premier league for the league champions chelsea and some could not see how good he was. A few games into his united career he is the best thing since sliced bread!!

Jayop

bangkok wrote: »

Matic for example before we signed him there was a lot of people that wanted fabinho instead, said matic was average, he would be an underwhelming signing bla bla bla and this was a player playing week in week out in the premier league for the league champions chelsea and some could not see how good he was. A few games into his united career he is the best thing since sliced bread!!

In fairness, I was a little negative about Matic, but that was more from reading the views of him on Chelsea forums at the time to see what they had thought of his season last year. They thought he was very poor.

adox

bangkok wrote: »

Matic for example before we signed him there was a lot of people that wanted fabinho instead, said matic was average, he would be an underwhelming signing bla bla bla and this was a player playing week in week out in the premier league for the league champions chelsea and some could not see how good he was. A few games into his united career he is the best thing since sliced bread!!

Which is people showing that they can be wrong and admitting it. Something you should learn.

I said the above but was glad we were at last signing a much needed DM. He has won me over completely, not because he has put on a Utd shirt but because he has been fantastic thus far.

You make it sound like people are changing their mind once he signed but that's not the case. They have just been honest with their opinion on how he played.

It takes a bigger man to change their mind based on the players performance than just stick to their opinion no matter what. *cough - Fellaini - cough*

S.M.B.

Jayop wrote: »

In fairness, I was a little negative about Matic, but that was more from reading the views of him on Chelsea forums at the time to see what they had thought of his season last year. They thought he was very poor.

I too have to put my hands up and say I wasn't raving about Matic before he arrived based on second hand information on his performances last season as opposed to first hand knowledge but I was happy José got his man.

I am sure there are a lot of others here who also thought the same and are willing to admit so.

jayo26

I have to put my hands up and say I came out and said i wantee lukaku and matic all along

adox

Everton getting spanked in the first half by Atalanta.

Lord TSC

adox wrote: »

Everton getting spanked in the first half by Atalanta.

4 points in 4 games in the league, and destroyed in Europe. We should be murdering them.

DM_7

Jose could have taken off Lukaku and let Martial go up front. Lukaku can't play every minute.

Jayop

Lord TSC wrote: »

4 points in 4 games in the league, and destroyed in Europe. We should be murdering them.

Watch now for a draw

Trigger

jayo26 wrote: »

I have to put my hands up and say I came out and said i wantee lukaku and matic all along

I hold my hands up and say I wanted Morata and Matic though was very happy to sign Lukaku

bangkok

adox wrote: »

Which is people showing that they can be wrong and admitting it. Something you should learn.

I said the above but was glad we were at last signing a much needed DM. He has won me over completely, not because he has put on a Utd shirt but because he has been fantastic thus far.

You make it sound like people are changing their mind once he signed but that's not the case. They have just been honest with their opinion on how he played.

It takes a bigger man to change their mind based on the players performance than just stick to their opinion no matter what. *cough - Fellaini - cough*

But my point was there was a player, matic, who played every week for chelsea who was excellent and they were champions, was exactly the type of player we needed and some werent exactly happy about it.

By the way i said fellaini will not be sold under jose as he likes that type of player and is good for the squad

adox

bangkok wrote: »

But my point was there was a player, matic, who played every week for chelsea who was excellent and they were champions, was exactly the type of player we needed and some werent exactly happy about it.

No one disputed he was the type of player we needed. No one. Just whether he was the best option for that position.

He also wasn't excellent for Chelsea every week. I saw him play plentry of games for them in the last couple of seasons where he was poor or the game passed him by.

Also what has the above got to do with your original point where you said that the people that didn't want Matic or think he was good enough now think he's great?

From my reading of it you seem to have absolutes for everything. He's been a great signing for Utd therefore he's been consistently excellent in his Chelsea career.

I also thought there was a sniff of "ah sure you were all moaning about the potential signing of Matic but the minute he signed you are all saying how great he is". Apologies if that isn't correct but there was more than a hint of it from my reading.

Matic having an excellent start to his Utd career doesn't automatically mean he was excellent for Chelsea. That could be down to a number of factors from formations to how a team plays, to his form or Utds gaping need for a player of his style.

Also on the Fellaini thing(which I threw in as a semi joke but speaking seriously on it now) you went out of your way to single him out at every opportunity with your hyperbolic nonsense and I would guess that's it's through sheer embarrassment and gave saving that you are grudgingly shifting a little.
Too little to late for me.

J. Marston

Going back to the topic of chants for Lukaku, saw someone on Redcafe say that the Falcao chant should be tweaked for him.

I agree, loved that chant.

jayo26

Bangkok is like something from the matrix when it comes to avoiding the point

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Hate playing late on Sunday. If all the big teams win, then 3 points is just a must.

Jayop

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Hate playing late on Sunday. If all the big teams win, then 3 points is just a must.

Very true. City and Spurs have easy enough games. Liverpool at home to Burnley could be sticky enough. Burnley's form away from home seems better this year and they are a tough team to break down. Chelsea and Arsenal play each other before us so one or both of them drop points. I'd prefer an Arsenal win.

Lord TSC

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Hate playing late on Sunday. If all the big teams win, then 3 points is just a must.

If we want to challange for the title, every game is "3 points is just a must".

bangkok

adox wrote: »

No one disputed he was the type of player we needed. No one. Just whether he was the best option for that position.

He also wasn't excellent for Chelsea every week. I saw him play plentry of games for them in the last couple of seasons where he was poor or the game passed him by.

Also what has the above got to do with your original point where you said that the people that didn't want Matic or think he was good enough now think he's great?

From my reading of it you seem to have absolutes for everything. He's been a great signing for Utd therefore he's been consistently excellent in his Chelsea career.

I also thought there was a sniff of "ah sure you were all moaning about the potential signing of Matic but the minute he signed you are all saying how great he is". Apologies if that isn't correct but there was more than a hint of it from my reading.

Matic having an excellent start to his Utd career doesn't automatically mean he was excellent for Chelsea. That could be down to a number of factors from formations to how a team plays, to his form or Utds gaping need for a player of his style.

Also on the Fellaini thing(which I threw in as a semi joke but speaking seriously on it now) you went out of your way to single him out at every opportunity with your hyperbolic nonsense and I would guess that's it's through sheer embarrassment and gave saving that you are grudgingly shifting a little.
Too little to late for me.

the point i was trying to make originally was about pogba. someone mentioned de bruyne has built up his reputation over the last 2 years and is now one of the best players in the league. what about pogba and his 4 years at juventus? Last season he was good for us, maybe not in the way people expected but he was still good and it was his first full season in the league and has started this season excellent.

Matic was good for years in the league and knows the league so its no real surprise he has been excellent at united so far, as we knew exactly what we were buying

also on the fellaini thing, he was awful in his first year at united, anyone who says otherwise is lying. i said what i thought, it was a panic signing, not good enough for united and his performances showed. He improved in his 2nd season over a few games and was poor enough again in 3rd season, even got booed by large sections of the old trafford crowd. i gave him his dues when he played well but for some reason any time he scored or did well, my name seemed to be mentioned here for some reason and the whole "fellaini/bangkok" thing grew legs

Trigger

bangkok wrote: »

Matic was good for years in the league and knows the league so its no real surprise he has been excellent at united so far, as we knew exactly what we were buying

Now I'm saying this as a big Matic fan.. he was ok last season and brutal the season before, it was a huge risk to take to see if he could get back to his previous form, it really could have gone either way, so that's why you see a lot of posters being SURPRISED with how well he is doing. My thoughts are it was the formation/tactics that didn't suit last season and everyone was poor the season before, but that doesn't make it any less of a risk.