British Airways Cancelled flight refusing compensation.

Former Former

Fred Swanson wrote: »

With the big airlines, the standard practice is to deny and keep denying any EU 261 claims in the hopes you will go away.

They will only pay out when they know you are serious and won't go away. This is where the specialist companies can be of use.

The OP hasn't told us why the flight was cancelled, but it was in July so there's a very strong possibility it was due to strike action, in which case BA have fully complied with all their legal obligations.

Fred Swanson

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Doltanian

I don't know the reason for the cancellation, I remember looking at Flight-radar 24 and the flight number just disappeared from schedules but has since been restored again this month. It looks to me like a scheduling issue or maybe lack of aircraft, because the same flight number was cancelled across several days and not just on the particular day I was due to travel.

L1011

Doltanian wrote: »

I don't know the reason for the cancellation, I remember looking at Flight-radar 24 and the flight number just disappeared from schedules but has since been restored again this month. It looks to me like a scheduling issue or maybe lack of aircraft, because the same flight number was cancelled across several days and not just on the particular day I was due to travel.

At the time you were travelling, flights cancelled for multiple days like that were cancelled due to ongoing strikes by the Mixed Fleet staff at BA. BA are not short on aircraft and have access to huge numbers of short-term hire providers should they have multiple incidents taking out craft.

Strike actions are not covered by 261.

You will need to prove the cancellation was something covered by 261 to have any chance of anything more than you have been offered.

Doltanian

I received a reply from British Airways today,

Dear Sir,

Thanks for coming back to us. I apologise for the delay in replying to you.

I'd like to inform you that when you purchase a ticket from British Airways, it forms a part of contract with us and we are liable to reach you to your final destination. We will give you additional assistance, such as compensation, refreshments and other care and reimbursement in case our flights are disrupted. On this occasion, though your flight was cancelled, you had reached your final destination. So, I'm afraid, we can't contribute towards the pre-booked hotel expenses. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

I'd like to inform you that when a flight is cancelled, we offer passengers the options to either rebook, reroute or a refund of their tickets. As you did choose to be rebooked on an alternative flight, I'm afraid we can't offer you any refund on this occasion.

I can see that you've made a claim for EU compensation. I've checked our records and I can confirm that your claim’s been refused because BA0109 on 04 July was cancelled because of operational circumstances outside of our control which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, I’m afraid we’re not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.

We take all reasonable measures to avoid cancelling a flight and we always consider if there are any operational options available before we make a decision. We’re very sorry the cancellation was necessary in this case.

Thanks for following this up with us. Please feel free to contact us if we can help you any further and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.

Best regards

British Airways Customer Relations

I don't know if this is the end of it or not but my next step is to get some advice if I am really entitled to EU Flight rules compensation, which I am not after, I'd still be happy if they just agreed to refund me the €92 I had to shell out for an extra night at the hotel over their schedule change.

Fred Swanson

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Former Former

Doltanian wrote: »

I received a reply from British Airways today,

I don't know if this is the end of it or not but my next step is to get some advice if I am really entitled to EU Flight rules compensation, which I am not after, I'd still be happy if they just agreed to refund me the €92 I had to shell out for an extra night at the hotel over their schedule change.

You are entitled to neither.

Goat the dote

All over an extra night in Dubai??

endofrainbow

All over E92 ?

Doltanian

endofrainbow wrote: »

All over E92 ?

Its just €92.00, which isn't exactly small change either, but for me it in the entire point of principle British Airways are entirely wrong here, I did nothing wrong, they cancelled my flight leaving me with two choices of either losing one day or arriving 8 and a half hours earlier. They could not get me there on the time I had booked for, despite I asking them to change me over to Emirates which they refused.

I feel very aggrieved and their mishandling of the situation has only further motivated me to fight them over the issue. What should I have done just spend the whole night in an airport? British Airways are entirely wrong and have failed in their duty to me as a customer here. I fly long haul several times a year and yes mistakes happen, cancellations occur and baggage sometimes get lost or misrouted but I have never been fobbed off so badly as British Airways have treated me. I have had cause to complain with Aer Lingus, Etihad and Cathay Pacific before all whom adequately dealt with the issue and compensated me adequately. But after this I will never again set foot on a British Airways plane under my own expense, if I had to pay three times the fare with a different carrier I would gladly do it.


My interpretation of the EU flight rules here says I am right and not the airline.

If you have been given between two weeks and seven days notice the airline must offer a choice between:
• an alternative flight departing no more than two hours before your original departure time and allowing arrival at your final destination within fours hours of the original scheduled time of arrival; or

• a full refund of the ticket.

Fred Swanson

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L1011

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Still needs to prove the cancellation was one where 261 applies; the likelyhood is it was due to the Mixed Fleet strike and hence isn't covered.

Fred Swanson

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guil

Doltanian wrote: »

.


My interpretation of the EU flight rules here says I am right and not the airline.

Why only highlight the bits you're interested in in bold? They offered a refund or another flight. I'm pretty sure you can't refuse the refund and then complain when you can't claim for another clause.

Victor

This is what CAR have to say about the Ryanair situation: https://www.aviationreg.ie/news/ryanair-flight-cancellations.803.html

daheff

Doltanian wrote: »

I received a reply from British Airways today,



I can see that you've made a claim for EU compensation. I've checked our records and I can confirm that your claim’s been refused because BA0109 on 04 July was cancelled because of operational circumstances outside of our control which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, I’m afraid we’re not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.
.

BA are claiming operational circumstances. Surely thats covered under EU legislation?

Vic_08

daheff wrote: »

BA are claiming operational circumstances. Surely thats covered under EU legislation?

"Operational circumstances" is a meaningless phrase. It could be anything. Without knowing what circumstances they are claiming to be outside the scope of EU261 nobody can tell if they are correct.

In order to proceed with the claim the OP needs to get clarification on the actual reason for the cancellation. It is not unknown for airlines to claim delays/cancellations as being outside the regs when they are not, that it did not specifically name an outside factor specifically would be a flag that they may be trying it on in this case.

Vic_08

L1011 wrote: »

Still needs to prove the cancellation was one where 261 applies; the likelyhood is it was due to the Mixed Fleet strike and hence isn't covered.

Strikes in external bodies such as ATC or airports would qualify for exemption under the "extraordinary circumstances" rule.

Strikes within the carrier and possibly with direct contractors of the carrier would not be so clear cut, is it really outside the airline's control if it their staff and their HR?


https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/themes/passengers/news/doc/2016-06-10-better-enforcement-pax-rights/c(2016)3502_en.pdf

In accordance with Article 5(3) of the Regulation, an air carrier is exempted from paying
compensation in the event of cancellation or delay at arrival if it can prove that the
cancellation or delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been
avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
In order to be exempted from the payment of compensation the carrier must therefore
simultaneously prove:
― the existence and the link between the extraordinary circumstances and the delay or the
cancellation, and
― the fact that this delay or cancellation could not have been avoided although it took all
reasonable measures.

In the absence of a court ruling to set a precedent which there doesn't seem to be on this specific issue it is really up to interpretation and how far a passenger wants to take it.

L1011

Plenty of lower court rulings in favour of the airlines across Europe; strikes are considered the same regardless of who employs them

Fred Swanson

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Doltanian

So to update the thread I received an email this morning from BA,

Dear Doltanian,

Thanks for coming back to us about your EU compensation claim. I apologise for the delay in replying to you.

I’ve reviewed and investigated your claim once again and can confirm that on the day you were due to travel, industrial action was carried out by Mixed Fleet Crew Strikes. Strikes are an extraordinary circumstance and are outside of our control. I’m afraid this meant we had no option but to cancel your flight.

Article 5.3 of the EU Regulation 261/2004 states that a carrier is not obliged to pay compensation if it can prove that the delay or cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances that couldn’t have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. In Recital 14 and 15 of EU Regulation 261/2004, extraordinary circumstances include weather, strike and the impact of an air traffic management decision which gives rise to a cancellation. This means you’re not entitled to compensation under the EU Regulation for your cancelled flight.

I realise this will be disappointing for you but I hope this information will help you to understand our decision.

Best regards
British Airways Customer Relations

It only took them around 7 weeks to reply, in the meantime I have been back to Dubai and home again since and traveled with Emirates instead (vastly superior airline and product offering).

While it could be argued that the strike was not an extraordinary circumstance as they had plenty advance notice and time to resolve the issues however there has been a string of lower court rulings around Europe which tend to side with the airline in these type of cases. My original suspicion that it might have been tied to their IT Meltdown earlier this year was proved false.

So basically I'm out of pocket €92.00 thanks to trade Unions in England. I don't think there is any further recourse available for me. One could possibly mount a legal challenge but hardly for the sake of €92.00 (imagine the legal costs after losing) and I myself am sympathetic to the airline in this incident now as I am incredibly anti-Union, I feel in these cases and as we have seen with Irish Rail, Bus Eireann etc. that discommoded passengers like myself should be able to sue the Trade Union responsible for the unnecessary disruption.

Fred Swanson

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Former Former

In fairness, the OP was told over and over again that he hadn't a leg to stand on.

Fred Swanson

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rock22

Doltanian wrote: »

So to update the thread I received an email this morning from BA,

....
and I myself am sympathetic to the airline in this incident now as I am incredibly anti-Union, I feel in these cases and as we have seen with Irish Rail, Bus Eireann etc. that discommoded passengers like myself should be able to sue the Trade Union responsible for the unnecessary disruption.

You can sue a trade union.
Hopefully they will take some more money off you

vg88

Doltanian wrote: »

One could possibly mount a legal challenge but hardly for the sake of €92.00 (imagine the legal costs after losing) and I myself am sympathetic to the airline in this incident now as I am incredibly anti-Union, I feel in these cases and as we have seen with Irish Rail, Bus Eireann etc. that discommoded passengers like myself should be able to sue the Trade Union responsible for the unnecessary disruption.

To quote myself for what is still relevant: From my understanding of 261 directive, you agreed to be rerouted (at this point you agreed to a new flight and cannot claim 261) and didn't arrive late with BA. From BA point of view they don't owe you anything I'd say.

L1011

moloner4 wrote: »

To quote myself for what is still relevant: From my understanding of 261 directive, you agreed to be rerouted (at this point you agreed to a new flight and cannot claim 261) and didn't arrive late with BA. From BA point of view they don't owe you anything I'd say.

Its irrelevant what the OP did - BA are not liable to pay compensation due to the cancellation being a result of strike action. They clearly have staff told not to admit this is the cause unless pushed as the strike has got very little media attention compared to some of their past ones.