"Book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

Nody

Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

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Liamalone

Not long til SHOWTIME!!!!

J. Marston

Here we go.

This better be bloody amazing!

RobbingBandit

It has all led to this

RobbingBandit

That's an entrance

PTH2009

That Britannia show looks promising

New game of thrones perhaps ???

RobbingBandit

Way too much politics for a finale.

Todd Toddington III

Enjoyed that. Made sure I avoided spoilers all week too . Good pace for the finale and enjoyed the lot. Cersei is still a cnut!!

Moist Bread

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Way too much politics for a finale.

I really enjoyed for that, I love the intrigue, that said the final third was slightly anticlimactic.

macslash

They fitted a lot in there. Not sure if the seven episode season was the right call. And ya Cersei is still some wagon.

It's gonna be a long bloody wait for season 8

GerB40

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Way too much politics for a finale.

The first season was basically all politics.

LLMMLL

I thought the Littlefinger storyline was quite clumsy. His hyper political animal persona was clearly a Martin creation and don't think the TV writers could handle his machinations properly. The whole aryas trial fakeout was total bog standard TV twist.

GerB40

macslash wrote: »

They fitted a lot in there. Not sure if the seven episode season was the right call. And ya Cersei is still some wagon.

It's gonna be a long bloody wait for season 8

Too much has to happen in 6 episodes. I think changing the 10 episode formula was a mistake but having said that, this season has been pretty fúckin good, if not perhaps a bit rushed at times. The next seasons episodes better be a least 2 hours long to fit in everything that needs to happen..

Riddle101

Great episode, personally my favorite episode of the season. Was completely caught off guard with Jon Snow being revealed as Aegon. For the past two seasons I've been going on about the absence of Aegon Targaryen, wondering why they excluded him from the show having read the books, now it all makes perfect sense. A great example of misdirection from the show. Jon Snow has been Aegon Targaryen all along.

Wonder what Tyrion standing outside Jon and Danys room was all about. Was he annoyed or possibly jealous or something? Not sure what to make of that scene.

Also very interesting when Cersei revealed that Euron hasn't abandoned her but looks like he's bringing the Golden Company with him. I didn't know what Euron's angle was the whole episode up until Cersei's scene with Jamie. I guess I was right to be suspicious.

And now finally the White Walkers have breached The Wall. I think we all knew it would lead to that but still a great scene to end the season on. So now we have to wait for Season 8 . All I can say to that is "And now my watch has ended"

RobbingBandit

Tyrion has made a pact with Cersei, I think it makes sense.

Todd Toddington III

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Tyrion has made a pact with Cersei, I think it makes sense.

What did she offer him though? Her flower?

Edit...She is supposed to be betrayed 3 times so this does make sense. Jorah, the girl who sold her out to the king or tarth and now Tyrion

Daith

Littlefinger's reaction to Bran was the end for him. He never could predict Bran. Still that storyline was rubbish throughout. Felt very plodding and the characters were off.

Sam and Bran are basically the same person.
"How come you read so much and don't know about the Three Eyed Crow?"
"How come you can see the past but I had to tell you they were married"
Touché

Cersei is all kinds of amazing. With of all of Sansa's talk of being safe in Winterfell, I think she'll be kidnapped. She'll be brought to KL by the Golden Company.

Savage Tyrant

I thought Greyworm and the Unsullied were under seige in Casterly Rock? And if not, they just waltzed across the width of Westeros from Castery to Kings Landing unhindered.
Great episode. I actually liked the Littlefinger trail scene. It felt quite satisfying.
The scene of different parts of KL while the snow was falling was beautiful.
In the one episode I wanted the teleporters, Jon didn't have his.... I was really hoping that Bran/Sam scene would have involved Jon in person. I really wanted his reaction this season but I guess we'll have to wait.
Gonna be a long year.

Daith

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I thought Greyworm and the Unsullied were under seige in Casterly Rock? And if not, they just waltzed across the width of Westeros from Castery to Kings Landing unhindered.

Not under siege. Their ships were destroyed. They were able to get through Westeros fine because Dany took care of most of their obstacles.

I thought Theon trying to rescue Yara made no sense if Euron was back on Pyke. Is it possible he'll rescue her and figure out what Euron is doing?

RobbingBandit

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

What did she offer him though? Her flower?

Edit...She is supposed to be betrayed 3 times so this does make sense. Jorah, the girl who sold her out to the king or tarth and now Tyrion

That wouldn't be Cersei, I'm bembarrassed

Kunkka

Great episode. Well Littlefinger... it was a good run!

Quote of the episode for me was, Sandor to his mutilated brother "You know who is coming for you!". Jon being revealed as Aegen shocked me. The ending was done very well. You would presume it is going to be all out action in Season 8.

Daith

I like Cersei pulling the same "touch me belly" manipulation on Tyrion as she did with Jaime.

Not sure why Dany took two dragons with her. She should have left one behind as if to say "this isn't my true strength"

I wonder have they all left Dragonstone? What would be the point of leaving people there? Will Winterfell be the main base next season.

BoJack Horseman

A bit ****ty after so many references to Rhaegar's children that they give the name of Rhaegar's first born son, killed by the Mountain to Jon.

podgemonster

Still processing the episode, v.tired watching it.

I enjoyed in a way how Littlefinger's demise this season inversely paralleled Ned's demise in season 1.

Ned headed south and is out of place in a city of liars and schemers. Renly runs out of the city, Slynt is bought and Joffery is chaotic (& stupid) enough to top him. Ned doesn't see it coming. An honourable man dies in a dishonourable place.

Littlefinger tries to manipulate every living Stark this season in Winterfell. His schemes aren't working here as the North is a different place where oaths mean something. Bran see through him and Arya is suspicious of him. Eventually he is found out, he scrambles to defend himself but his previous tricks and lies all come home to roost. Littlefinger doesn't see it coming. A dishonourable man dies in a honourable place.

razorblunt

Agree with Podgemonster, I enjoyed seeing title fingers picked apart, at is a wonderful worse fate or him than death death multiple stabs.like.

Did enjoy seeing Jaime literally take the black.

Daith

podgemonster wrote: »

Littlefinger tries to manipulate every living Stark this season in Winterfell. His schemes aren't working here as the North is a different place where oaths mean something. Bran see through him and Arya is suspicious of him. Eventually he is found out, he scrambles to defend himself but his previous tricks and lies all come home to roost. Littlefinger doesn't see it coming. A dishonourable man dies in a honourable place.

LF should have ran once Bran said "chaos is a ladder" to him. I like the comparison but Ned dying was true politics. LF dying was because he couldn't predict Bran. Once Bran confirmed his actions against Ned, LF was 100% toast.

It also has a nice parallel to a story in The Wire which I'm enjoying too.

Mr Velo

Daith wrote: »

Cersei is all kinds of amazing. With of all of Sansa's talk of being safe in Winterfell, I think she'll be kidnapped. She'll be brought to KL by the Golden Company.

Something tells me that Winterfell will have a little more to deal with than the Golden Company in the early episodes of Season 8.

Daith

Mr Velo wrote: »

Something tells me that Winterfell will have a little more to deal with than the Golden Company in the early episodes of Season 8.

Perfect time to take a hostage....anyway this should be the speculation thread.

Anybody else slightly annoyed that Sam was like "I transcribed a High Speton's diary"? Gilly found the text.

awec

I am confused about the Aegon thing.

Wasn't Aegon the child of Elia Martell and Rheagon? But now Jon is supposed to have been Aegon all along? How does that work?

Daith

awec wrote: »

I am confused about the Aegon thing.

Wasn't Aegon the child of Elia Martell and Rheagon? But now Jon is supposed to have been Aegon all along? How does that work?

I can't remember if E+R's Aegon was actually named in the show?

In that case then yes, there's two Aegons who are both sons of Rhaegar with two different women?

duffysfarm

no other show makes incest look as good as Game of Thrones!

awec

Daith wrote: »

I can't remember if E+R's Aegon was actually named in the show?

In that case then yes, there's two Aegons who are both sons of Rhaegar with two different women?

He was in earlier seasons like when they talked about Ser Gregor killing the two children. It was one of the reasons Oberyn Martell died, he fought Ser Gregor to avenge the two children.

So it appears there has been two Aegon's to two different mothers with the same father? That is just unnecessarily confusing

The Hound Gone Wild

awec wrote: »

I am confused about the Aegon thing.

Wasn't Aegon the child of Elia Martell and Rheagon? But now Jon is supposed to have been Aegon all along? How does that work?

That other Aegon was killed by the mountain. The Aegon from the books is almost confirmed a Blackfyre now?

Raises a question as to why Rheagar would name Jon Aegon when his Aegon with Ellia was still alive by that point.

Perhaps it's just shïtty writing from D&D and GRRM will have other plans for Jon's name.

Billy86

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Way too much politics for a finale.

I love the battles scenes, am generally not big on fantasy (but do love sci fi) and have really enjoyed everything from Dragons to Red Priests/Priestesses to White Walkers, but this show is at it's best when doing politics, families and the human side of things.

One of the better episodes ever I thought, and a huge, huge relief to see some really well played out and written scenes focusing on the politics as well as the exciting, action-driven stuff. Hopefully we see a good bit of this next year too.

GerB40 wrote: »

Too much has to happen in 6 episodes. I think changing the 10 episode formula was a mistake but having said that, this season has been pretty fúckin good, if not perhaps a bit rushed at times. The next seasons episodes better be a least 2 hours long to fit in everything that needs to happen..

I think today showed what a difference even seven 90 minute episodes would have made (would have come to 10.5 hours too, so more time!). In a perfect world I think the show really needed 30 episodes to wind up properly, 20 was cutting it fine, and 14 was a flat out mistake (last week was maybe the best example of why).

Although I have a sneaky suspicion that we could be seeing next season end right before a huge, final type battle leading to a 2.5+ hour movie in Christmas 2018 to send the show off with one big, final, money-making bang.

Dial Hard

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Cersei is still a cnut!!

She's an utter geebag. Can't wait to see her get her comeuppance.

A mixed bag of an episode for me. I felt it was slow to start. The Littlefinger thing felt very rushed, almost like an afterthought. The wall coming down was epic. Jon and Dany??? I'm actually kind of surprised D&D went there. We know incest was common among royal families in that universe but I didn't think the audience would accept it between two such popular characters.

awec

Incest has always been practiced among Targaryens so it was always going to happen.

Daith

awec wrote: »

He was in earlier seasons like when they talked about Ser Gregor killing the two children. It was one of the reasons Oberyn Martell died, he fought Ser Gregor to avenge the two children.

I know it mentioned the deaths of the children but couldn't remember if the children were named.

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

Raises a question as to why Rheagar would name Jon Aegon when his Aegon with Ellia was still alive by that point.

We don't know if Rhaegar actually named Jon though. He was dead before that scene with Ned and Lyanna.

knucklehead6

Daith wrote: »

I know it mentioned the deaths of the children but couldn't remember if the children were named.




We don't know if Rhaegar actually named Jon though. He was dead before that scene with Ned and Lyanna.

it would also explain why the Kingsguard were there, Lyanna was carrying the (at that point) Targaryen heir

RobbingBandit

Incest between siblings is seen on screen and in the book, Jon himself stops a pseudo incestuous Karstark relationship when Alys Karstark comes to the wall on the dead horse, this doesn't happen in the show but the Northerners are strange. Ned Stark blood still runs through his veins just not as thick as they thought so will the Lords of the North follow a Southerner King.

Daith

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Incest between siblings is seen on screen and in the book, Jon himself stops a pseudo incestuous Karstark relationship when Alys Karstark comes to the wall on the dead horse, this doesn't happen in the show but the Northerners are strange. Ned Stark blood still runs through his veins just not as thick as they thought so will the Lords of the North follow a Southerner King.

He's not a Southern King. He's the son of Ned Stark just as Theon Greyjoy is. The Jon/Theon scene is important. Jon might need to know but there's no reason that Bran/Sam need to tell anyone else.

The Hound Gone Wild

Daith wrote: »

We don't know if Rhaegar actually named Jon though. He was dead before that scene with Ned and Lyanna.

True enough. Forget that the tower of joy scenes happen after Rhaegar's death.

RobbingBandit

Ned asks Robert if he remembers the Trident, he says yes I won my damn crown there, Ned then says you avenged Lyanna there. Rhaegar left her in Dorne in the tower of joy under the protection of Ser Arthur Dayne. She died before the Battle of the Trident.

Daith

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Ned asks Robert if he remembers the Trident, he says yes I won my damn crown there, Ned then says you avenged Lyanna there.

Yeah, the Trident is the pivotal battle but Ned finds Lyanna after Rhaegar's death and the Mad Kings death/Sack of Kings Landing. He rides from KL to Dorne doesn't he?

"The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground. Why weren't you there to protect your prince?"

Turns out they were protecting their prince.

Daith

Daith wrote: »

Yeah, the Trident is the pivotal battle but Ned finds Lyanna after Rhaegar's death and the Mad Kings death/Sack of Kings Landing. He rides from KL to Dorne doesn't he?

"The Mad King is dead. Rhaegar lies beneath the ground. Why weren't you there to protect your prince?"

Turns out they were protecting their prince.

Yip, Jon is born after the war is finished.

Anyway, thought the episode was decent.
Wasn't keen on the Littlefinger story, and thought his execution was rushed. I would have rather that they kept him prisoner for a while (not sure why)
I was hoping to see Tormund and Beric raised as wights at the end. With the way this season has been written, I presume they're still alive, and somehow, will reach Winterfell before the White walkers.
Loved the scenes with Cersei and her brothers. I presume that Jamie is going to join up with the rest of the Power Rangers
Thought the reveal of Jon/Aegon was a bit silly. Expect GRRM to do it much, much better

All in all, probably the worst season of Game of Thrones IMO. Sub standard writing. The only scene I remember getting excited for, was when Bran arrived at Winterfell, and I wrongly guessed it was going to be Arya.
Too much waste in a shortened season. Sam in the Citadel, Jorah getting cured. Grey worm and Missandrei. Sansa vs Arya. I'm sure there were other things, but the waste definitely outweighed the good

Conchir

It's been overshadowed by the ending, but couldn't be happier with Jaime finally walking away. Really feels like he's grown, that he's fulfilling his arc.

MrsFlushdraw

The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »

That other Aegon was killed by the mountain. The Aegon from the books is almost confirmed a Blackfyre now?

Raises a question as to why Rheagar would name Jon Aegon when his Aegon with Ellia was still alive by that point.

Perhaps it's just shïtty writing from D&D and GRRM will have other plans for Jon's name.

Rheagar was sure that either himself or his son would be the prince that was promised and afaik that was why he named Aegon that originally, with the death of his first Aegon then I can only imagine they chose to use the name again due to prophecy.

Named for Aegon the Conqueror.

And someone else wrote before I got back to this that it was after the battle of the Trident and the baby was dead I am pretty sure at that point.

Daith

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

Rheagar was sure that either himself or his son would be the prince that was promised and afaik that was why he named Aegon that originally, with the death of his first Aegon then I can only imagine they chose to use the name again due to prophecy.

Named for Aegon the Conqueror.

And someone else wrote before I got back to this that it was after the battle of the Trident and the baby was dead I am pretty sure at that point.

Yes, I think Lyanna must have heard about the death of the babies in KL and decided to call him Aegon.

There's the whole, Rhaegar was crazy about the prophecy and named his two his sons Aegon but I think it's simpler than that. I'd say Lyanna knew he liked that name.

PIORUN

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Ned asks Robert if he remembers the Trident, he says yes I won my damn crown there, Ned then says you avenged Lyanna there. Rhaegar left her in Dorne in the tower of joy under the protection of Ser Arthur Dayne. She died before the Battle of the Trident.

but in Brans flashback , Ned says to Dayne " I looked for you at the Trident" so Lyanna was still alive then.

Daith

PIORUN wrote: »

but in Brans flashback , Ned says to Dayne " I looked for you at the Trident" so Lyanna was still alive then.

Oh yes, Lyanna was still alive after the Battle of the Trident, Sack of Kings Landing and the Siege of Storm's End.

DeadHand

Why was Jon named "Snow"?

Robert's Rebellion was fought mainly in the River, Crown and Storm lands. Not the North.

So, if Ned's "I had him while away at war" story was to be credible, should he not have named Jon "Storm", "Rivers" or whatever the Crownland counterpart is?

It doesn't seem plausible that he had the time or inclination to impregnate someone on his initial rush South or on the journey back. Moreover, he'd hardly have got up to such hijinks in the North- not being the type to play away so close to home.

It doesn't add up and makes an already dubious story dangerously incredible. I'm surprised I haven't seen it questioned before.

It probably just comes down to "Jon Snow" sounds good.

connemara man

DeadHand wrote: »

Why was Jon named "Snow"?

Robert's Rebellion was fought mainly in the River, Crown and Storm lands. Not the North.

So, if Ned's "I had him while away at war" story was to be credible, should he not have named Jon "Storm", "Rivers" or whatever the Crownland counterpart is?

It doesn't seem plausible that he had the time or inclination to impregnate someone on his initial rush South or on the journey back. Moreover, he'd hardly have got up to such hijinks in the North- not being the type to play away so close to home.

It doesn't add up and makes an already dubious story dangerously incredible. I'm surprised I haven't seen it questioned before.

It probably just comes down to "Jon Snow" sounds good.

He's a bastard of a northern lord hence snow.