"Book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

Dial Hard

DeadHand wrote: »

Why was Jon named "Snow"?

Robert's Rebellion was fought mainly in the River, Crown and Storm lands. Not the North.

Because he was reared in the North by a Northern lord claiming him as his bastard son, ergo he was given the Northern name for a bastard. Obviously.

Daith

DeadHand wrote: »

It doesn't seem plausible that he had the time or inclination to impregnate someone on his initial rush South or on the journey back. Moreover, he'd hardly have got up to such hijinks in the North- not being the type to play away so close to home.

He wasn't the type to play away anywhere, no matter what the distance was.

Savage Tyrant

Daith wrote: »

He wasn't the type to play away anywhere, no matter what the distance was.

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Daith

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Interesting parallel here

Ned made a promise to Lyanna (probably to protect Jon/not tell anyone) and did that even if it caused issues with Cat

Jon made a promise to Dany to support her and didn't break that (even pretending to) when Cersei wanted him to.

In both cases, they thought their promise was more important.

leggo

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Thing is, though, Ned was stupid. He was honourable and brave and a helluva guy, but he was never intelligent. All of his motivation was driven by what was right and honourable before what was smart. So yeah, it would've saved him a lot of grief to tell Cat, but he'd have felt like he was betraying his pledge to Lyanna in doing so, so he didn't.

Riddle101

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

The problem with secrets is that the more people know about it the harder it is to keep it a secret. Ned was the only one to know about Jon and it was safer that way. While I do think Catelyn was trustworthy, nobody knows if she might have revealed the secret to someone else, someone she trusted. Ned probably decided it was best to keep it to himself.

DeadHand

Dial Hard wrote: »

Because he was reared in the North by a Northern lord claiming him as his bastard son, ergo he was given the Northern name for a bastard. Obviously.

Don't know why you need to be snarky about a simple question.

The nerd rage is strong with this one.

LionelNashe

Littlefinger, yes!! Some good whimpering by Aidan Gillen there as well.
Jon, NO!!

They're symbolically cursed now. I thought it signified that one of them would die, but maybe the wall coming down fulfills the doom.

Who'll reach Winterfell first? The armies on the kings road, or the dead?

awec

LionelNashe wrote: »

Littlefinger, yes!! Some good whimpering by Aidan Gillen there as well.
Jon, NO!!

They're symbolically cursed now. I thought it signified that one of them would die, but maybe the wall coming down fulfills the doom.

Who'll reach Winterfell first? The armies on the kings road, or the dead?

Things that happen at the same time in the show don't really happen at the same time remember.

I am betting that Jon etc get back to Winterfell long before the dead army arrives.

Daith

awec wrote: »

I am betting that Jon etc get back to Winterfell long before the dead army arrives.

Hopefully we'll get some decent reunions before the show kicks into overdrive

Sansa/Tyrion
Dany/Sansa
Arya/The Hound
Arya/Gendry (where is he? Eastwatch?)
Ghost/Drogon

Is it just me or did Drogon look tiny in this ep? He seemed massive when he was buring the Tarlys for some reason.

leggo

Also, think outside the box, there'll probably be some raids of Northern lands before they hit Winterfell to establish they're now a presence in Westeros and causing devastation. Think more in terms of 'what they need to show/establish' than what's geographically plausible. They'll need a preamble to any big battle, remember how we all thought Dany was gonna sack King's Landing in episode one of this series because it was now possible? It never plays out like that.

I do think it's key that they established that Dany and Jon would be sailing to White Harbour rather than travelling with the rest on the king's road. So I'd say, because they'll have to give the White Walkers a big win before they go into dragon vs dragon mode, they'll likely arrive before Jon and Dany but not other big characters and armies, then take Winterfell. That's not to say that everyone will die, there'll be some big deaths but the characters they need to survive will likely flee and then recommence the battle elsewhere when Dany and Jon are on dragons kicking arse.

I also think it's interesting how the show has pretty much outlined that they'll be doing White Walkers stuff first, then finishing with the Battle For KL. I wonder how they'll keep Cersei busy while all this stuff plays out, here position seems fairly set now, beyond the Golden Company arriving. Jaime is another wildcard, when does he join the fray? Can he communicate to Dany and Jon what's happening in time for them to have any kind of meaningful response or will Cersei just keep busy taking her lands back?

pah

Daith wrote: »

Hopefully we'll get some decent reunions before the show kicks into overdrive

Sansa/Tyrion
Dany/Sansa
Arya/The Hound
Arya/Gendry (where is he? Eastwatch?)
Ghost/Drogon

Is it just me or did Drogon look tiny in this ep? He seemed massive when he was buring the Tarlys for some reason.

Have these met before?

DeadHand

connemara man wrote: »

He's a bastard of a northern lord hence snow.

Which makes sense, but Bran (before finding out about R and L's marriage) states that he's really "Jon Sand" which would seem to indicate that bastards are named for the place they are born rather than the place they are reared.

johnnyskeleton

Another episode that I enjoyed for its action scenes and its suspense, but felt that the tone and some niggling details were off.

So, rather than focus on what I thought was great (ice dragons, armies coming together etc) this is the internet so I'm going to focus on the negative!

1. Cersi's stuff didn't quite make sense. Her tactical position in the show is that her armies are defeated save for the ones hemmed in in KL. The unsullied and dothraki are free to roam the rest of Westeros unimpeded. The only thing she has left is the golden company and the fact that a truce means that Dany's army will probably be significantly diminished by the war in the North. She even states her strategy as "let the monsters fight the monsters". So why did she say she would march North and fight with them? Why not just say "Tyrion has convinced me that a truce is necessary", Dany marches North and Cersi then uses that time to regroup. She wouldn't even need the subterfuge of Euron, she could simply get the Golden Company over once Dany leaves. It suggests one of a few possibilities, but none of them is satisfactory:

A. If it was just a truce Dany would have left a contingency force behind to keep her under siege. But this defeats the purpose of a truce. Dany always wanted Cersi not to attack her while she moves her armies North. If she was always going to leave a besieging army behind, she could have done so without a truce and without the whole capture a wight debacle.

B. It's a cunning plan involving Tyrion having a side deal with Cersi to betray Dany, but I'm not sure what he could do other than maybe poison her or something.

C. Cersi is a compulsive liar and intriguer, so she would rather do herself a disservice by deception than strengthen her position by the truth.

D. It was bad writing to make Cersi seem more cunning / add more "In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die" stuff. Maybe they felt the other plot lines were too rushed so needed Cersi to be a little off balance rather than the battle against the white walkers in the first half of season 8 and the battle for the throne in the second half.

Also, she only asked Jon Snow to agree to the truce as well. She didn't ask him to make a lasting peace with the Lannisters or accept her as his Queen. So it wasn't a breach of any oath on his part to say "sure yeah, I'll agree to the truce cos I am the one who really wants to smash the white walkers and let the succession be dealt with later". Equally hard to see why it was such a sticking point for Cersi as well.

2. I also thought the false plot against Arya/ secret plot against Littlefinger was poor as well. Sansa knew that he killed Lysa and conspired against her from her own knowledge and at some point Bran told her (off screen) that he betrayed Ned. So what was she waiting for, and why the deception? She was to be the Judge in the case, the Northern Lords had no loyalty to him, and the Lords of the Vale wouldn't have any loyalty to him if he killed Lysa (which they had suspected anyway so wouldn't need much proof). So why go through the whole secret plot between Sansa and Arya? All it would take is for Arya to say "I don't like Littlefinger" and Sansa would say "yeah, I don't like him too." Then see what the Lords of the Vale think and presto, he's toast. Add in a little bit of Bran greenseeing for extra comfort. I also thought the crying scene at the end was bad. Is Aidan Gillian trying to act as a bad actor as in we are supposed to see them as crocodile tears?

3. Did Cersi order Robert Strong to kill Jamie? It looked like she did and he unsheathed his sword but then did nothing. It was just a bit unclear.

4. The dragon burning the wall was visually good but I still don't fully understand what happened to all the spells that stop the undead going through. If it was simply a question of a physical barrier, could they not just have built a bridge (out of chains, if necessary!) across the little river beside westwatch and easily overran the garrison. Presumably the dragon has become a white walker not a wight and breathes a strange kind of fire. Maybe this magically destroyed the wall's magic but who knows!

5. The Jon Snow really being Aegon Targaryan VI is a neat way of doing the low-born-child-is-the-secret-heir twist, but what difference does it make in the world of Ice and Fire at this stage? He has sworn to serve Dany, and she has the dragons etc, so his honour and her superior force would suggest she could defeat him in a contest for the crown. It might feed into them as a couple but I kinda thought that that would be done as a political marriage rather than be in the form of a of puppy eyed booty call.

6. Theon's fight scene was poor. He was being savaged by the other guy who then suddenly stopped fighting back. Also, the Ironborn are not above betraying their leader so why did they suddenly take swear allegiance when they were about to decamp to a tropical island tout suite?

P.S. I did like the way they put in a little "f you" to internet nit pickers like me when Littlefinger said "Golly, it must take weeks for a Raven to travel KL to Winterfell in this weather"!

Paddy Cow

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

This is one of my main stickler points of both show and books... we all know how honourable Ned was... it makes no sense to me that at the very least he didn't confide the information about Jon to Catelyn. I know he was trying to protect Jon (and by extension, his whole family if they were discovered to be harbouring a Targaryen heir) but surely such an honourable man could and indeed SHOULD have confided to his wife, especially after it became clear that she herself resented the boy. It really made me dislike Catelyn despite being an otherwise good strong character.

Catelyn's open dislike of Jon made the lie more real. If Ned told her the truth and she treated Jon nicely, people would start to talk. Catelyn herself felt guilt for not being able to love a motherless bastard.

Paddy Cow

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

2. I also thought the false plot against Arya/ secret plot against Littlefinger was poor as well. Sansa knew that he killed Lysa and conspired against her from her own knowledge and at some point Bran told her (off screen) that he betrayed Ned. So what was she waiting for, and why the deception? She was to be the Judge in the case, the Northern Lords had no loyalty to him, and the Lords of the Vale wouldn't have any loyalty to him if he killed Lysa (which they had suspected anyway so wouldn't need much proof). So why go through the whole secret plot between Sansa and Arya? All it would take is for Arya to say "I don't like Littlefinger" and Sansa would say "yeah, I don't like him too." Then see what the Lords of the Vale think and presto, he's toast. Add in a little bit of Bran greenseeing for extra comfort. I also thought the crying scene at the end was bad. Is Aidan Gillian trying to act as a bad actor as in we are supposed to see them as crocodile tears?

LF has spies everywhere. He would be gone in a flash if he thought they were on to him. They had to outwit him. He confessed in front of the other Lords and his execution is justified. Sansa still has the loyalty of the Vale Knights, probably more so now that she exposed LF.

Paddy Cow

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

4. The dragon burning the wall was visually good but I still don't fully understand what happened to all the spells that stop the undead going through. If it was simply a question of a physical barrier, could they not just have built a bridge (out of chains, if necessary!) across the little river beside westwatch and easily overran the garrison. Presumably the dragon has become a white walker not a wight and breathes a strange kind of fire. Maybe this magically destroyed the wall's magic but who knows!

Before he became the three eyed raven, Bran was having a vision when the Night King grabbed him and left a mark. I'm pretty sure that once Bran then passed through the wall it meant that the NK would also be able to do so. If the magic spells are broken then the NK just has to take down the wall, which he did with the dragon.

martingriff

DeadHand wrote: »

Which makes sense, but Bran (before finding out about R and L's marriage) states that he's really "Jon Sand" which would seem to indicate that bastards are named for the place they are born rather than the place they are reared.

They are names after the area the father is from so as they thought he was Nes's son and he is a Northern lord he is a Snow. As Bran had not known he was not a bastard and he was Rhaegar son he be names what a bastard is named in that area

Daith

DeadHand wrote: »

Which makes sense, but Bran (before finding out about R and L's marriage) states that he's really "Jon Sand" which would seem to indicate that bastards are named for the place they are born rather than the place they are reared.

It's inconsistent in the books but really it was so Jon's "bastard" heritage would be mentioned allowing Sam to correct Bran. Viewers would have recognized Sand better than Rivers or another Bastard name I guess.

One thing I didn't get. Did Bran hear Jon's real name the first time or did he go back into the past again? Cos that's pretty a pretty poor way for the show to delay the telling.

leggo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

2. I also thought the false plot against Arya/ secret plot against Littlefinger was poor as well. Sansa knew that he killed Lysa and conspired against her from her own knowledge and at some point Bran told her (off screen) that he betrayed Ned. So what was she waiting for, and why the deception? She was to be the Judge in the case, the Northern Lords had no loyalty to him, and the Lords of the Vale wouldn't have any loyalty to him if he killed Lysa (which they had suspected anyway so wouldn't need much proof). So why go through the whole secret plot between Sansa and Arya? All it would take is for Arya to say "I don't like Littlefinger" and Sansa would say "yeah, I don't like him too." Then see what the Lords of the Vale think and presto, he's toast. Add in a little bit of Bran greenseeing for extra comfort. I also thought the crying scene at the end was bad. Is Aidan Gillian trying to act as a bad actor as in we are supposed to see them as crocodile tears?

My initial reaction was that the twist was done for dramatic effect and felt a bit cheap, but on reflection it actually makes sense to do it this way. Littlefinger is the Protector of the Vale and even thought himself that he could command Royce to escort him safely out of Winterfell, so it figures that Sansa, Bran and Arya would need a trial to ensure the continued support of the Vale after killing him. They were the key to the BOTB after all and Sansa's position without them may not be tenable. Royce also couldn't just go off their word and would need solid proof, such as seeing Littlefinger confess or at least squirm, to justify his own position not stepping in (as much as he was probably happy to given his disdain for LF). The way they did it gave LF no opportunity to flee while also ticking all other boxes, it was a clever plan and the fact it added drama is even better.

I also liked how they subtly handled the Bran element. So what obviously happened is that Arya was testing out Sansa's trustworthiness last week (totally plausible, having read the books recently my one reaction to their relationship was "Wow...GRRM really wants you to know they don't like each other...", so I'd have felt cheated if they just became BFFs without any questions), then when she deduced that Sansa was being truthful (passing her the knife) they added Bran into the mix off-screen. If they'd have shown that it would've made the twist predictable, but the fact he was just sitting there was a deft touch on the writers' part IMO. I won't say they've done well with that entire story arc this season, it's been clumsy at times, but I'm glad they rounded it off well at least.

martingriff

Paddy Cow wrote: »

LF has spies everywhere. He would be gone in a flash if he thought they were on to him. They had to outwit him. He confessed in front of the other Lords and his execution is justified. Sansa still has the loyalty of the Vale Knights, probably more so now that she exposed LF.

Is she now the Lady of the Vale or protector until the son (who I can not remember) becomes of age

eeguy

So does Bran just "know" everything. Like its all up in his head, or does he need to specifically go into the past and watch an event happen?

Like did he need Sam to give him the hint to find the wedding bit?

Effects

Daith wrote: »

Did Bran hear Jon's real name the first time or did he go back into the past again? Cos that's pretty a pretty poor way for the show to delay the telling.

He knew, he was just waiting for the right time to tell someone.

martingriff

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Another episode that I enjoyed for its action scenes and its suspense, but felt that the tone and some niggling details were off.

So, rather than focus on what I thought was great (ice dragons, armies coming together etc) this is the internet so I'm going to focus on the negative!

1. Cersi's stuff didn't quite make sense. Her tactical position in the show is that her armies are defeated save for the ones hemmed in in KL. The unsullied and dothraki are free to roam the rest of Westeros unimpeded. The only thing she has left is the golden company and the fact that a truce means that Dany's army will probably be significantly diminished by the war in the North. She even states her strategy as "let the monsters fight the monsters". So why did she say she would march North and fight with them? Why not just say "Tyrion has convinced me that a truce is necessary", Dany marches North and Cersi then uses that time to regroup. She wouldn't even need the subterfuge of Euron, she could simply get the Golden Company over once Dany leaves. It suggests one of a few possibilities, but none of them is satisfactory:

A. If it was just a truce Dany would have left a contingency force behind to keep her under siege. But this defeats the purpose of a truce. Dany always wanted Cersi not to attack her while she moves her armies North. If she was always going to leave a besieging army behind, she could have done so without a truce and without the whole capture a wight debacle.

B. It's a cunning plan involving Tyrion having a side deal with Cersi to betray Dany, but I'm not sure what he could do other than maybe poison her or something.

C. Cersi is a compulsive liar and intriguer, so she would rather do herself a disservice by deception than strengthen her position by the truth.

D. It was bad writing to make Cersi seem more cunning / add more "In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die" stuff. Maybe they felt the other plot lines were too rushed so needed Cersi to be a little off balance rather than the battle against the white walkers in the first half of season 8 and the battle for the throne in the second half.

Also, she only asked Jon Snow to agree to the truce as well. She didn't ask him to make a lasting peace with the Lannisters or accept her as his Queen. So it wasn't a breach of any oath on his part to say "sure yeah, I'll agree to the truce cos I am the one who really wants to smash the white walkers and let the succession be dealt with later". Equally hard to see why it was such a sticking point for Cersi as well.

It is C. When they are off in the North she will reclaim all the lands and then whoever wins she will take on and win. Well in her own mind anyway she is the "Mad King". In her mind this is destiny she is born to rule and her now being pregnant tells who the fortune teller was wrong and she will live and be destined to rule all

martingriff

Effects wrote: »

He knew, he was just waiting for the right time to tell someone.

But Bran called him Jon Sands it was Sam's piece of information that made Bran go further and get the rest of the pieces. He always thought that she was kidnapped it would not have been in his mind to actually check what happened until he had to. Everything it not in Bran's head he has to go back to find it

martingriff

I really liked the episode. I thought the start while in jumped into it was a bit slow. Cersie know that Jon would not swear an oath to her or on the off chance he did and would think she had the plan of joining then all the time anyway and she would spring it on them at the right time.

The Sansa/Arya Littlefinger played out as I thought they had to keep up there distrust on one another as LF has spies everywhere. They had to make him admit everything to keep everyone on side

The Bran Sam scene was not what I was expecting I was sure Bran knew it all but as I have sent in another post he only knows what he has seen and he never saw Jon was not a bastard. Not knowing the name was a bit strange.

There are 2 scenes I have questions about

The 1st is the Cersie Jamie scene. First of all I thought we were going to get a bit of GRR Martins cruelty and kill Jamie. But thank god no but did Cersie stop the mountain or did Jamie/Clegane stop him.

The 2nd is Tyrion when Jon went into Dany's room. The look on is face is it

A) He know who Jon and Dany are
He is jelous
C) Is he conspiring with Cersie

Loved the end the army of the dead marching out. It shall be epic (I hope) but I am wondering how much will they give to the war in the North and will they just hurry past the defeat of Cersie

Daith

eeguy wrote: »

So does Bran just "know" everything. Like its all up in his head, or does he need to specifically go into the past and watch an event happen?

Like did he need Sam to give him the hint to find the wedding bit?

Based on the scene he needs to actively search? Like having access to an Encyclopedia. It just seems weird that he didn't follow the Lyanna story fully. I've gone down rabbit holes on Wikipedia and Bran's like "that'll do".

I know he has the NK to worry about but he's got a lot of free time too.

martingriff

eeguy wrote: »

So does Bran just "know" everything. Like its all up in his head, or does he need to specifically go into the past and watch an event happen?

Like did he need Sam to give him the hint to find the wedding bit?

Needs to go from what I think as if he knew everything he would know how to defeat the Knight King

(IE HIM)

martingriff

Daith wrote: »

Based on the scene he needs to actively search? Like having access to an Encyclopedia. It just seems weird that he didn't follow the Lyanna story fully. I've gone down rabbit holes on Wikipedia and Bran's like "that'll do".

I know he has the NK to worry about but he's got a lot of free time too.

But Bran allways believed she was kidnapped and rapped so he never thought of going further. I think it is meant to be a lesson of you never know anything until you see it

HandsomeBob

Yeah you would have thought Bran would have looked deeper into Jon's heritage without prodding from Sam. Strange that he was also so eager to tell Jon he was a sand, as in you're a bastard, just not the bastard you thought you were......so you never knew either parent, sorry bro.

I liked Bran here though, seemed to be Bran rather than all TER. He seemed fairly involved in nailing LF for the death of his father and in the realisation that Jon was a possible heir to the IT. Still a fair bit of Bran in there after all.

DeadHand

martingriff wrote: »

They are names after the area the father is from so as they thought he was Nes's son and he is a Northern lord he is a Snow. As Bran had not known he was not a bastard and he was Rhaegar son he be names what a bastard is named in that area

Rheagar ain't from Dorne either though.

I suppose it's just the show-writers fudging things for simplicities sake.

Daith

martingriff wrote: »

But Bran allways believed she was kidnapped and rapped so he never thought of going further. I think it is meant to be a lesson of you never know anything until you see it

Yep, I get that, just find it odd that he wouldn't have gone further. Then again there's lots about Bran I don't get.

HandsomeBob wrote: »

Yeah you would have thought Bran would have looked deeper into Jon's heritage without prodding from Sam. Strange that he was also so eager to tell Jon he was a sand, as in you're a bastard, just not the bastard you thought you were......so you never knew either parent, sorry bro.

Ha, yes! Would have been funny if Bran went into the whole spiel, "you're a Southern Bastard, Jon Sand" then Sam pops up with
"Actually Mr Three Eyed Raven, he's the rightful heir to the Iron Throne"

HandsomeBob

I would have dreaded Ned's position too had he got to keep his word and tell Jon the truth. Sorry son, but you're not actually my son......you're eh, er.....the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lynna Stark and heir to the Iron Throne....well, would have been. Don't brood on it too much on your trip back to the Wall.

martingriff

HandsomeBob wrote: »

I would have dreaded Ned's position too had he got to keep his word and tell Jon the truth. Sorry son, but you're not actually my son......you're eh, er.....the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lynna Stark and heir to the Iron Throne....well, would have been. Don't brood on it too much on your trip back to the Wall.

If Ned even breathed a word of who Jon was to anyone he would have been killed no if's or butts so he had to keep quiet same reason for Jon Aryyans bastard

HandsomeBob

martingriff wrote: »

If Ned even breathed a word of who Jon was to anyone he would have been killed no if's or butts so he had to keep quiet same reason for Jon Aryyans bastard

Yeah I know, but Ned told him that the next time he spoke to him that he'd tell him about his mother. So either Ned was going to spoof which we knew was incredibly hard for him to do or he was planning on dropping the bomb on Jon once he had said the words and thus, couldn't have pursued it.

Ned did it for the right reasons but still, that's the reality. Even Jon himself showed displeasure at Ned knowingly allowing him to join the sh1thole of a place the night's watch had become.

LionelNashe

Just realised that Jaime has fecked off and left Bronn high and dry. No castle, no gold, and Cersei isn't exactly his biggest fan.

Sansa and arya: YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

I was so hoping it was all a big ruse and the drama when she said "you are accused... lord baelish"
boom

johnnyskeleton

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

6. Theon's fight scene was poor. He was being savaged by the other guy who then suddenly stopped fighting back.

Well he was taken by surprise "huh why isn't this move working" and theon's like YEAH BITCH then your man got his head kicked in
I thought it was really good

Also, the Ironborn are not above betraying their leader so why did they suddenly take swear allegiance when they were about to decamp to a tropical island tout suite?

I figured the fight was like a ritual and they'll go along with someone who won it the iron way

bnt

bluewolf wrote: »

Sansa and arya: YESSSSSSSSSSSSS

I was so hoping it was all a big ruse and the drama when she said "you are accused... lord baelish"
boom

If I don't mind saying so myself: nailed it. Well, kind-of.

bnt wrote: »

Re: the Arya / Sansa thing: this may fall under speculation, but I think they're working together at this point, putting on a show for Littlefinger to get him to reveal his schemes. This would mean that sending Brienne away isn't a problem, sinnce Arya already has plans for Littlefinger: he's on her list.

So I think we're all agreed that he's for the chop, so why not just make him disappear? Because the Knights of the Vale would leave, and the North needs them. They're essentially the only reason Sansa's tolerated him at Winterfell at all. To keep them on her side, Littlefinger can't just disappear: he has to be publicly discredited in front of his troops, and that means exposing his schemes.

Well, half right: he didn't really have to expose his current scheme, since Sansa already had enough past evidence to damn him. But the Knights of the Vale are now hers to command. I didn't expect justice to be quite that ... swift. :eek:

bnt

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

2. I also thought the false plot against Arya/ secret plot against Littlefinger was poor as well. Sansa knew that he killed Lysa and conspired against her from her own knowledge and at some point Bran told her (off screen) that he betrayed Ned. So what was she waiting for, and why the deception?

My response to that is simply to remember that Sansa and Arya are still young women, and don't young women like a bit of drama? The timelines aren't clear, but I doubt Sansa has reached 20 years old at this point, since she was only 11 at the start of the books, and Arya was 9.

The same is true of Daenerys Targaryen - at this stage of the plot she must be barely out of her teens, since in the books she was 13 when traded to Khal Drogo. The casting of an older actress seems to have confused that point. Yet she's old enough to be Jon Snow's aunt - since her brother Rhaegar was his father.

I couldn't figure out what tyrion was looking so mournful about but maybe bran sent a raven

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Daith

When Lyanna said "His name is Aegon Targaryen", why would Bran assume he's a bastard?

OK Lyanna was dying and probably not up to referencing the naming conventions of Westeros but surely Bran must have been intrigued? Bran being the 3ER and not following up stuff is odd.

Also, why would he tell Sam about Jon's heritage and not Sansa or Arya? His character is terrible if it's just plot driven.

HandsomeBob

bluewolf wrote: »

I couldn't figure out what tyrion was looking so mournful about but maybe bran sent a raven

I took it as that as far as Tyrion knows, Cersei has committed this major act of goodwill. Maybe he had hope that if the dead were dealt with, he could broker a peace.

A consolidation of the union between Jon and Dany truly fcuks that hope and possibly the Lannisters as well.

Conall Cernach

A few thoughts occurred to me.

Dany, Jon and pals are sailing to White Harbour thinking Euron is on his way round Dorne to The Iron Islands but in reality he is only across the way in Essos. Will he intercept Dany's little fleet?

When Maester Aemon was dying he kept talking to Egg, his brother Aegon. Was this because he knew Jon was really called Aegon too?

martingriff

bnt wrote: »

If I don't mind saying so myself: nailed it. Well, kind-of.

Well, half right: he didn't really have to expose his current scheme, since Sansa already had enough past evidence to damn him. But the Knights of the Vale are now hers to command. I didn't expect justice to be quite that ... swift. :eek:

I thought Sansa was going to do it and felt a bit sad by it as her father allways said never give a punishment unless you are willing to carry it out

froog

can't believe i read the season 7 spoilers ages ago thinking it was bull****, spoiled the whole season for me!

anyway, enjoyable season but mainly because of the big scenes. pacing feels way out of place with previous seasons. feels like they're rushing it to the finish line because they're struggling big time without GRRM's source material. hence 2 more seasons (including this one) and just 7 episodes this season.

i think there's only one twist left to the show - the true motivation for the whitewalkers coming back and wanting to wipe humans off the face of westeros. i think what's most likely is the children of the forest finishing what they started all those centuries ago. bran will have a major part to play, probably on the wrong side. jamie will kill cersei. dany will die saving her dragon or jon or something. jon will finish as the king of a post apocalyptic westeros.

martingriff

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I know this is the TV show but they can not name him the same in the book

as we already have an Aegon

eeguy

eeguy wrote: »

So does Bran just "know" everything. Like its all up in his head, or does he need to specifically go into the past and watch an event happen?

Like did he need Sam to give him the hint to find the wedding bit?

Daith wrote: »

Based on the scene he needs to actively search? Like having access to an Encyclopedia. It just seems weird that he didn't follow the Lyanna story fully. I've gone down rabbit holes on Wikipedia and Bran's like "that'll do".

I know he has the NK to worry about but he's got a lot of free time too.

Going back to the Tower of Joy scene last season, Bran saw it while still under the tutelage of Max Von Sydow's 3ER. He saw it in one of those visions which got interrupted for Bran and the audience (3ER: "You and the viewers have seen enough for now") - It wasn't Bran who said "That'll do", it was the previous 3ER.

So Bran saw as much as we did in that first ToJ scene and came out of it with the same knowledge as us having been interrupted. However, now that he is the 3ER he has unlimited, undisturbed access to that knowledge - he just needs a prompt or a reminder for what to look at.

Speaking of the Wikipedia worm-hole, I have gone down it many times and enjoy doing so. Most times I do, it ends before I want to end it - I fall asleep, I have to get back to life/work. No matter how much I was into the material I was reading at the time, I mostly forget to go back again and my attention soon gets absorbed with the almost infinite material at my disposal online.

Bran needed a prompt. Since that ToJ scene, he had to go through 'Hold the Door' and get back south of the wall to Winterfell and keep his third eye north of the Wall. I'm not totally satisfied with the way Bran was handled earlier on this season, but him getting a reminder from Sam and then going back to look at the rest of the ToJ scene was fine with me and made sense within the show's universe.

Also, I've seen criticism about Sam having that knowledge about the annulled marriage since it was Gilly who read it to him while he wasn't paying attention to her. It didn't occur to me at the time of the earlier episode, but having watched the finale it now does: Gilly was reading from a book Sam had already transcribed. It makes sense. The whole reason Sam had to carry out that task in the first place was because the books were falling apart and becoming unreadable.

Conchir

Conall Cernach wrote: »

When Maester Aemon was dying he kept talking to Egg, his brother Aegon. Was this because he knew Jon was really called Aegon too?

Since we learned Jon's true background, I've been tempted to reread the books and look for little passages or words that may have some more meaning to them now, but this wouldn't be one I'd go for personally. There'd be no reason Aemon would have known, and it would have been quite difficult to get word to him anyway.

Mainly though, it's mentioned a good bit that Aemon and Aegon were very close when they were younger, so I think him referring to Egg is just his looking back on the brother he loved, no more.