"Book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

RobbingBandit

Meera more or less tells Bran you died in the cave didn't you before she goes back home after leaving him at Winterfell. Bloodraven has warged into Bran is one theory I've thought of both spirits are in the body with Bloodraven most likely assuming dominance.

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Daith

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Except he heard the whispers. He hears Lyanna whispering to Ned that "Robert would kill him if he found out". Instead they conveniently have Bran not hear one whisper while listening to the followup other whispers.

All the show had to do was have Lyanna reveal the name after Ned holds Baby Jon in his arms. So Bran realises he left too soon, revisits the scene after Ned is holding Jon and then Lyanna says the name.

That would be consistent with Bran thinking Ned named the baby but the surname is wrong.

Yes, you can chalk it up to Bran being in shock or something else but I'm blaming a fairly cliched writing style here.

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No, it's not the same because you don't have a third character in the scene. The contents might come out but I don't have to pretend a third character conveniently didn't listen to something.

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Daith

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Ah, it's not really that scene, it's just a representation of some bad writing that seems to be more and more prevalent in the show.

I don't have a problem with them not showing conversations.

I'm not sure why Brienne was in King's Landing either, other than the show wanting her to see Jaime and The Hound again.

The more I think about it, it's not "bad" writing, just cliched writing. It's probably cos the first few seasons were great that I'm slightly disappointed here. It just feels like a different show sometimes.

mcgiggles

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And the slight smile when he heard she was alive! Love his character!

martingriff wrote:

I thought Sansa was going to do it and felt a bit sad by it as her father allways said never give a punishment unless you are willing to carry it out

I think it kind of solidifies them as a team tho, despite their differences!

MrsFlushdraw

mcgiggles wrote: »

And the slight smile when he heard she was alive! Love his character!



I think it kind of solidifies them as a team tho, despite their differences!

I don't think Sansa has the stomach to carry out the sentence. I would not expect and Lady to do that. Ned was a man and that is the moto he lived by but he would not expect a woman normally to kill someone. Arya is different and is an assassin and just part of her job!

Daith

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

I don't think Sansa has the stomach to carry out the sentence. I would not expect and Lady to do that. Ned was a man and that is the moto he lived by but he would not expect a woman normally to kill someone. Arya is different and is an assassin and just part of her job!

Yes, it's doubtful that Ned every expected Sansa to rule. I doubt he even bothered telling her that line.

I mean rule as being a leader, not being a Queen.

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blackwhite

Daith wrote: »

Ah, it's not really that scene, it's just a representation of some bad writing that seems to be more and more prevalent in the show.

I don't have a problem with them not showing conversations.

I'm not sure why Brienne was in King's Landing either, other than the show wanting her to see Jaime and The Hound again.

The more I think about it, it's not "bad" writing, just cliched writing. It's probably cos the first few seasons were great that I'm slightly disappointed here. It just feels like a different show sometimes.

Sansa was invited to be a party to the Dragonpit meeting, and sent Brienne as her representative as Sansa felt she wouldn't be safe herself going back to KL, as well as not wanting to leave Winterfell leaderless (and potentially at the mercy of Baelish).

Daith

blackwhite wrote: »

Sansa was invited to be a party to the Dragonpit meeting, and sent Brienne as her representative as Sansa felt she wouldn't be safe herself going back to KL, as well as not wanting to leave Winterfell leaderless (and potentially at the mercy of Baelish).

Why was Sansa invited? Jon is the King in North and he speaks for all the Northern houses. He pledges the North to Dany without needing Sansa there.

So he wanted Sansa to travel all the way to Kings Landing to observe a meeting?

Savage Tyrant

Daith wrote: »

Why was Sansa invited? Jon is the King in North and he speaks for all the Northern houses. He pledges the North to Dany without needing Sansa there.

So he wanted Sansa to travel all the way to Kings Landing to observe a meeting?

It's not particularly tidy, but yes. She's the Lady of Winterfell, head of the House Stark and presumably his heir to the Kingdom of the North (at the point of sending the letter before he bent the knee)

Loafing Oaf

Daith wrote: »

So he wanted Sansa to travel all the way to Kings Landing to observe a meeting?

Poor Pod went on the same journey and he didn't even get to observe the meeting. Apparently to give Bronn a pretext to be offstage. Because Jerome Flynn and Lena Headey allegedly refuse to be in the same room together.
Full (alleged) story here:
http://www.refinery29.com/2017/08/170157/lena-headey-jerome-flynn-feud-theory

Daith

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

It's not particularly tidy, but yes. She's the Lady of Winterfell, head of the House Stark and presumably his heir to the Kingdom of the North (at the point of sending the letter before he bent the knee)

You know what, that makes sense. The situation changed once he bent the knee.

MrsFlushdraw

Daith wrote: »

Why was Sansa invited? Jon is the King in North and he speaks for all the Northern houses. He pledges the North to Dany without needing Sansa there.

So he wanted Sansa to travel all the way to Kings Landing to observe a meeting?

It is possible that Cersei doesn't recognise Jon as the King in the North and the face he is not a Stark as well. Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell and more in keeping with normal family lineage.

martingriff

MrsFlushdraw wrote: »

It is possible that Cersei doesn't recognise Jon as the King in the North and the face he is not a Stark as well. Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell and more in keeping with normal family lineage.

Plus maybe she was getting her hands on her as she thing Sansa nnd Tyrion killed Geoffrey

SexBobomb

How are Jon and Dany going to react when they find out Jon's origins ? Quite the,,
,
,

sticky mess.. :cool:

Billy86

SexBobomb wrote: »

How are Jon and Dany going to react when they find out Jon's origins ? Quite the,,
,
,

sticky mess.. :cool:

ArmaniJeanss

Riddle101 wrote: »

Wonder what Tyrion standing outside Jon and Danys room was all about. Was he annoyed or possibly jealous or something? Not sure what to make of that scene.

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Tyrion has made a pact with Cersei, I think it makes sense.

Hmmm, seems a popular theory.

I actually took it that Tyrion had suddenly realised who John Snow was - as a bookreaders nod to how he had worked out (also on a boat) that Young Griff was Aegon Targaryen in ADwD.

Yer explanation makes more sense though.

Paddy Cow

martingriff wrote: »

Plus maybe she was getting her hands on her as she thing Sansa nnd Tyrion killed Geoffrey

Olenna Tyrell told Jamie, who told Cersei that it was her who killed Joffrey.

Paddy Cow

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Tyrion has made a pact with Cersei, I think it makes sense.

How would it make sense though? Tyrion believes Dani will make the better Queen. He hates Cersei and knows exactly what type of Queen she will be. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that he'd betray Dani for Cersei.

Savage Tyrant

I thought Dany's third betrayal "for love" was going to be Messandai (her love for Grey Worm) when he was found to have perished at Casterly Rock.... but then he showed up at Kings Landing like nothing happened.... I feel like if it is Tyrion then that's cheap. It doesn't fit his character or what he thinks of his sister.
Dany is his best chance of being named Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the East.
I suppose it's not beyond Cersei to offer the same, but Tyrion knows she can't be trusted and that she has hated him his whole life. I just can't see it being him.

martingriff

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Olenna Tyrell told Jamie, who told Cersei that it was her who killed Joffrey.

Ya but Cersei does not believe her

martingriff

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I thought Dany's third betrayal "for love" was going to be Messandai (her love for Grey Worm) when he was found to have perished at Casterly Rock.... but then he showed up at Kings Landing like nothing happened.... I feel like if it is Tyrion then that's cheap. It doesn't fit his character or what he thinks of his sister.
Dany is his best chance of being named Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the East.
I suppose it's not beyond Cersei to offer the same, but Tyrion knows she can't be trusted and that she has hated him his whole life. I just can't see it being him.

I thought the 3rd betrayal was Jorah no?

J. Marston

SexBobomb wrote: »

How are Jon and Dany going to react when they find out Jon's origins ? Quite the,,
,
,

sticky mess.. :cool:

Jon: *retches*

Dany: "So what?"

Paddy Cow

martingriff wrote: »

Ya but Cersei does not believe her

She does. Jamie pointed out that it would be better for Margery to be married to the more pliable Tommen than Joffrey and then the true ruler of the seven kingdoms would be Olenna. She's blinkered in her hatred of Tyrion but she's not completely stupid.

HandsomeBob

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

I thought Dany's third betrayal "for love" was going to be Messandai (her love for Grey Worm) when he was found to have perished at Casterly Rock.... but then he showed up at Kings Landing like nothing happened.... I feel like if it is Tyrion then that's cheap. It doesn't fit his character or what he thinks of his sister.
Dany is his best chance of being named Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the East.
I suppose it's not beyond Cersei to offer the same, but Tyrion knows she can't be trusted and that she has hated him his whole life. I just can't see it being him.

It must have been part of the preliminary armistice that the Unsullied were allowed to depart Casterly Rock unharmed.

TheIrishGrover

Paddy Cow wrote: »

How would it make sense though? Tyrion believes Dani will make the better Queen. He hates Cersei and knows exactly what type of Queen she will be. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that he'd betray Dani for Cersei.

Not betray Dany. Betray Jon. Sacrifice/deliver Jon to Cersie once they are finished with The Walkers.

It's the only thing he would be willing to give up to get Cersie back to the table. He likes Jon but he has to look at the bigger picture. I don't think he's copped on to Jon being Targaryan. And, to be honest, I don't think he would care anyway. He see's Dany as the best potential ruler.

Plus, we all know that Jon's too straight-laced to try to take the throne if it comes to it. The ONLY proof they have is RoBran's word. And, let's face it, who's going to believe him? Suddenly RoBran/Morpheus says "Yeah, they guy who was raised as my 1/2 brother is the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms. Trust me, I saw it in a vision..... Even Sansa is dubious about RoBran. Yes, there are writings about Rheagar/Lyanna but as far as EVERYONE is concerned, Jon is Ned's bastard, not Lyanna's (il)legitimate child.

Daith

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Plus, we all know that Jon's too straight-laced to try to take the throne if it comes to it. The ONLY proof they have is RoBran's word. And, let's face it, who's going to believe him? Suddenly RoBran/Morpheus says "Yeah, they guy who was raised as my 1/2 brother is the rightful heir to the seven kingdoms. Trust me, I saw it in a vision..... Even Sansa is dubious about RoBran. Yes, there are writings about Rheagar/Lyanna but as far as EVERYONE is concerned, Jon is Ned's bastard, not Lyanna's (il)legitimate child.

I don't get the "The North wouldn't believe Bran"? I don't think Sansa is dubious about Bran. I think she absolutely believes him about his visions.

The North believe Jon about the White Walkers and Wights. They believe in the Old Gods. They know dragons exist. Bran isn't that far fetched.

If Jon takes the Throne though (I doubt he ever will) it won't be because of Bran or Howland Reed or Sam or whoever. It'll because he'll be supported by the other Houses. It's his theme.

Bran's only purpose here is to give that information to Jon. Jon will believe Bran (and Sam). It will cause Jon personal conflict but that's about it.

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Daith

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Who is all this evidence exactly for though?

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Paddy Cow

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Not betray Dany. Betray Jon. Sacrifice/deliver Jon to Cersie once they are finished with The Walkers.

That still makes absolutely no sense. Lets say for arguments sake that Tyrion (who was a shrewd Hand in King's Landing and was A++ at playing the game) has suddenly reverted to Sansa season 1 level naivety and has decided to trust Cersei, what would he gain? Cersei has already told Jamie she has no intention of sending her army north and it won't be long before Dany and Jon realise this. So what does Tyrion get for betraying Dany or Jon? Absolutely nothing apart from helping put Cersei on the Iron Throne.

I honestly can't see there being any pact between the two. The look on Tyrion's face was about him knowing that Dany and Jon getting together is a bad idea.

Loafing Oaf

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I honestly can't see there being any pact between the two. The look on Tyrion's face was about him knowing that Dany and Jon getting together is a bad idea.

Episode director Jeremy Podeswa agrees with you:

When Jon and Dany hook up, we know it’s incest, but they don’t. So why does Tyrion look troubled? Why the reaction shot from him?

From my point of view, Tyrion always seemed three steps ahead. As long as there is a professional alliance between Dany and Jon, that’s something that everybody wants. We can imagine that that’s a helpful alliance. But when things get personal, then people make decisions based on their emotions, and that can complicate matters going forward, so I think he sees the potential here for things to get very messy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-7-finale-director-jon-snow.html?mcubz=0

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Paddy Cow

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Jamie headed north on his own.

juneg

The third betrayal will be Missandei but I cant figure out how.

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Daith

juneg wrote: »

The third betrayal will be Missandei but I cant figure out how.

Think it'll tie into Euron and Grey Worm somehow.

Mickeroo

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And then she told him he had no control over the armies without her say and they showed him leave King's Landing alone.

Markcheese

What I don't get is how cersi let Jamie leave. He's going to head north, he'll spill the beans about cersi, and the imminent arrival of the golden company... So why wouldnt she lock him up if she wasn't going to kill him,

Daith

Markcheese wrote: »

What I don't get is how cersi let Jamie leave. He's going to head north, he'll spill the beans about cersi, and the imminent arrival of the golden company... So why wouldnt she lock him up if she wasn't going to kill him,

The North will realise soon that Cersei isn't helping them regardless.

Paddy Cow

juneg wrote: »

The third betrayal will be Missandei but I cant figure out how.

Did they mention the betrayals in the show? I can't remember but but maybe they left it out??

In the books, Cersei was convinced that Tyrion was going to kill her because the witch foretold it. In the show, the witch never mentions that Cersei will die at the hands of her younger brother which means that basically anyone can kill Cersei. Unless of course the writers hide it to make it more shocking to viewers when Tyrion Jamie does it.

TheIrishGrover

Daith wrote: »

Think it'll tie into Euron and Grey Worm somehow.

Somebody's already now writing the fanfiction for THAT....... Shudder

Paddy Cow

Markcheese wrote: »

What I don't get is how cersi let Jamie leave. He's going to head north, he'll spill the beans about cersi, and the imminent arrival of the golden company... So why wouldnt she lock him up if she wasn't going to kill him,

If she couldn't kill Tyrion who she has hated since the day he was born, there was no way she could kill Jamie. As the other poster said, it won't be long before the North realises the Southern armies have pulled a sickie.

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pinkypinky

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Or perhaps single-handed?

Markcheese

Daith wrote:

The North will realise soon that Cersei isn't helping them regardless.

True, but that puts them more or less where they were before the truce anyway.. And cersi has revealed that euron hasn't just buggered off, he's gone to get the golden company.. Kind of showing her hand..

Mickeroo

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Yeah I figured he's just headed for Winterfell now and kind of feels it's his duty to go and help in the fight. Wouldn't be surprised if Bronn tags along with him.

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