"Non book readers" - Season 7 Episode 7 "The Dragon and the Wolf"

rojito

Mousewar wrote: »

Well yeah you could argue that but ultimately it's about how Ned interpreted the instruction from Lyanna to protect him. He interpreted it his way and from all the above, his way is logical and definitely not self-serving (whether or not you think it was ultimately 'right').

I'd be of the opinion that the only logical reason to deny Jon that knowledge would be self-interest but we can agree to disagree

Penn

rojito wrote: »

Not sure where you got that, but whatever.

I guess it comes down to whether you feel Jon had a right to knowing the truth of his past or not before pledging his life away. And if his mother would have wished for him to know that truth in order to determine his own destiny.

Ultimately, Ned did what he always did; what he thought was best. Not for his own selfish reasons or anything, but by that point Jon wanted to go to the Wall anyway and Ned was leaving Winterfell. It would have kept Jon safe (as one can be at the Wall) for the rest of his life, and it was a life Jon was willing to have anyway.

Jon was still extremely young at this point. Telling him about his actual parentage and claim to the Throne would have served no good purpose. Yes, it's a decision Ned made for Jon, but it was one he made for Jon's own good rather than his own. It fulfilled his promise to Lyanna to keep him safe from Robert, he knew Benjen would be there a lot of the time so he'd be with family, and the idea that Jon would ever be able to even get close to actually making a claim for the Throne was laughable. Without knowing about Jon, people still know about Dany and she technically has the best birthright claim to the Throne. But that doesn't mean anyone is rallying to her side. It was really only because of her dragons that she got to where she is.

If Ned told Jon the truth, how could Jon realistically have fought for the Throne (without knowledge of future events)? Robert was King of a united Seven Kingdoms, with two heirs who were part-Lannister (the most powerful family in Westeros). Robert had the backing of Tywin, and there was peace in the Seven Kingdoms. The North wouldn't have rallied behind Jon, most of them fought Robert's rebellion against the last Targaryens. Only if Ned himself backed Jon and called in his banners etc could they have started to form any kind of rebellion, but then, Ned would be purposefully and knowingly starting a war against Robert & the Lannisters (the Crown itself), for Jon.

Is that keeping him safe against Robert?

secondrowgal

DeadHand wrote: »

I think it's because such a union could spell the end for the Lannisters.

I've had this gnawing feeling all season that Tyrion has more residual loyalty for his family than is prudent for him to let on. He looks despondent at the battle of Blackwater Rush to see Lannister forces massacred and is the most enthusiastic advocate for a truce- just as things start to go against the Lannisters.

He was firmly on team Lannister in the earlier seasons until basically being forced to betray them in self defense when Tywin attempted to have him killed.

Haven't gone through the whole thread, but isn't Tyrion in love with Dany? This could be the beginning of a rift between Jon and Tyrion.

MisterAnarchy

Did anyone spot the band Mastodon in this episode ,they made another cameo

Loafing Oaf

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Did anyone spot the band Mastodon in this episode ,they made another cameo

Loos like an actual mastodon back left!:P

DeadHand

secondrowgal wrote: »

Haven't gone through the whole thread, but isn't Tyrion in love with Dany? This could be the beginning of a rift between Jon and Tyrion.

It has never been hinted that Tyrion is in love with Dany- you may be thinking of Jorah.

messy tessy

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Jon is both a dragon (Targeryen) and a wolf (Stark).

And insufferable

TCDStudent1

GottaGetGatt wrote: »

Tyrion is not going to backstab Danaerys. Not a hope has he made plans with Cersei off screen. It's just stupid and makes almost sense.

Why did cersei suddenly change her mind and return to the pit then?

mad m

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The wall is supposed to be 700 feet tall (213 meters) and an average of 300 feet in width (91 meters).
What we saw at the end of that episode was a wall about 700 feet tall and about 30 feet wide .:rolleyes:

Think the wall was built during Celtic Tiger, could of had Pyrite in it....don't think Homebond will cover it though

The Golden Miller

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Why did cersei suddenly change her mind and return to the pit then?

Unless he made plans with Cersei that he is never going to keep. Lead her into thinking he is on her side once again. And it will come out and wires will be crossed and Dany actually does think he betrayed her, which forces Tyrion to genuinely take Cersei's side so as not to be killed by Dany. Just think of all the possibilities. Long wait ahead

duffman13

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Why did cersei suddenly change her mind and return to the pit then?

Well her ploy with Euron to get the Golden Company from Essos depends on a truce which means one way or another Cersei was going to come back to the table otherwise Kings Landing most likely would have fell before Eurons return.

I think Tyrion believes he has some kind of agreement with Cersei, I feel Tyrion is struggling a lot lately and the battlefield with Lannister Men burning and the thought of his house going up in flames is hard for him. I don't think he full on betrayed Dany but I do believe he may have made a deal for the greater good.

Himself and Varys had a few conversations about doing the right thing and not just doing the right thing to protect your throne. He may believe what he has done is for the greater good (focusing Dany on the white walkers) even if it might see them lose the following war with Cersei.

gpstracker

duffman13 wrote: »

I feel Tyrion is struggling a lot lately

He's neither been drinking nor whoring, that's bound to take it's toll. The settings are a little stale for him since he got onside with Danny. Much more craic was to be had when he was in KL or off adventuring.

TCDStudent1

duffman13 wrote: »

Well her ploy with Euron to get the Golden Company from Essos depends on a truce which means one way or another Cersei was going to come back to the table otherwise Kings Landing most likely would have fell before Eurons return.

I think Tyrion believes he has some kind of agreement with Cersei, I feel Tyrion is struggling a lot lately and the battlefield with Lannister Men burning and the thought of his house going up in flames is hard for him. I don't think he full on betrayed Dany but I do believe he may have made a deal for the greater good.

Himself and Varys had a few conversations about doing the right thing and not just doing the right thing to protect your throne. He may believe what he has done is for the greater good (focusing Dany on the white walkers) even if it might see them lose the following war with Cersei.

That scene where Tyrion is looking down on the battle with such sadness seeing the Lannister army losing was probably the most powerful of the season. Wonderful acting.

Loafing Oaf

DeadHand wrote: »

It has never been hinted that Tyrion is in love with Dany-

Very obliquely...


And his urging Dany not to fly north to rescue the magnificent seven, if seen in a certain light...

Tigger

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The wall is supposed to be 700 feet tall (213 meters) and an average of 300 feet in width (91 meters).
What we saw at the end of that episode was a wall about 700 feet tall and about 30 feet wide .:rolleyes:

Where is this said ? I didn't realise

KKkitty

Maybe Tyrion is getting sick of conflict at this stage. Killing his own father was his breaking point. He just wants peace in his life and he's afraid of certain things happening that will result in more unnecessary bloodshed.

Billy86

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Did anyone spot the band Mastodon in this episode ,they made another cameo

Wasn't mad on the last scene though it was OK, but I really loved this one, particular shot! Seemed like a bit of a possible call back/homage to some older zombie film, though if it actually is I couldn't say which.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Plot summary of episode 7

Penn

duffman13 wrote: »

Well her ploy with Euron to get the Golden Company from Essos depends on a truce which means one way or another Cersei was going to come back to the table otherwise Kings Landing most likely would have fell before Eurons return.

I don't think it mattered to Cersei's plan whether or not there was a truce. Euron's departure was to lull Jon & Dany into a false sense of security. It was Euron's fleet who took out the Greyjoys/Dorne, and pinned the Unsullied in at Casterly Rock. Cersei's plan for Euron to up sticks and leave is to make Dany & Jon think she no longer has the Iron Fleet and is now weaker. That way, when Euron shows up, not only is his return a shock to them, but also the Golden Company. They can now use that to turn the tide in a battle.

Whether Cersei came to a truce or not, her & Euron's plan was just to make it seem like the Iron Fleet were gone. Whether Jon/Dany attacks Cersei or vice versa, Cersei has now has the Iron Fleet & Golden Company up her sleeve.

secondrowgal

DeadHand wrote: »

It has never been hinted that Tyrion is in love with Dany- you may be thinking of Jorah.

Oh I know Jorah has the serious hots for her, but Tyrion has also been giving her longing looks.

Luckily for me, our good friend LO found the reference I was thinking of - Thanks LO

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Very obliquely...


And his urging Dany not to fly north to rescue the magnificent seven, if seen in a certain light...

seamus

PTH2009 wrote: »

Jamie and Cersi must be old enough too if Jamie killed the mad king (or Jamie must of been very young when he done it ??)

I think they're supposed to be 40-ish, which would put Jamie in his late teens (18/19) when he killed King Aerys, effectively in cold blood.
Jamie at the time was a highly regarded swordsman, but not a commander of any armies and not directly involved in any fighting during the rebellion, so he could have been 14 at the time for all it mattered. He just stabbed the king and then waited for Robert and Ned to arrive.

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Danaerys won't like that Jon has a better claim to the throne than her. She may get paranoid and try to kill him. I could see the final battle being between those two.

The two of them just staying together afterwards seems a bit too neat.

That's a bit far-fetched. I expect that even when the truth is revealed, Jon will stay true to his word to follow Dany as his queen. There was a lot of talk of honour and honesty in this episode, it was laid on far too thick for Jon to turn around and say, "Nah, fnck that stuff I said back in KL, I'm the true King".
Dany might suggest that they rule together as Targaryens.

Drumpot wrote: »

Should bran not know that the NK has a dragon who has Destroyed the wall in seconds? If so, I presume he would be telling everybody fairly lively!

Yeah, and I think that was the purpose of the "handover" from Bran's warging to following Thormond. Bran was watching the whole thing. The next season will likely start with Bran's realisation of what's coming.

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

How are they sailing north if greyjoy destroyed their fleet. Isn't that why the unsullied had to walk home couple of episodes back.

They had a huge fleet leaving Slaver's Bay. Only part of it took the Unsullied to Casterly Rock.

Darch Nemesis wrote: »

Magic cock?

It's a bit of a nod to the books, and a passing remark that was made in the show when Tyrion and Jorah were captured. There's a superstition in the GoT universe that a dwarf's cock has magical powers. Probably much like rhino horn is sold as an aphrodisiac.

rojito wrote: »

But he could have done all that without sending Jon to the Wall. Let him "come of age" so to speak, or even wait until his friend Robert had died. Ned would have known for years that Jon had the potential to be a much better king than Joffrey. By denying him that right he was betraying his sister and Jon.

Ned was always focussed on doing the right and honourable thing for the people as opposed to what the rules had to say about it. They overthrew King Aerys because he was a mad tyrant. He knew that if Jon's true heritage became known at any point - even after Robert's death - then it had the potential to throw the kingdom into turmoil again.
There were always supporters of the Targaryens out there waiting in the wings, something Robert knew when he sent assassins after Dany and Viserys. The emergence of an adult Targaryen to take the throne would launch a new war.

Cina wrote: »

PLUS, Ned didn't know Rhaegar and Lysa were married, in his eyes, Jon was still a bastard with no right to the throne.

Well, when Lysa said his name was "Targaryen", that told Ned that the child was trueborn, and by extension that Lysa hadn't been kidnapped at all.

rojito wrote: »

I repeat, the Wall was not a safe place and Ned knew that.

To be fair, at the time the wall wasn't particularly more dangerous than anywhere else.

Sleepy

Tyrion is really suffering as a character due to the cartoon network-isation of the last two series. He's at his best in the quieter, character driven scenes and somewhat lost in the heavy CGI, action fest the series has become.

The more I've thought about this season, the more I've disliked it tbh.

desertcircus

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Did anyone spot the band Mastodon in this episode ,they made another cameo

Now I know they're there, it's impossible not to see Brent Hinds' tattooed face right at the front.

Loafing Oaf

Have I got things mixed up, or was Jon being slightly economical with the actualite when he said you can kill wights with fire or dragon glass? You can also kill them with a solid whack over the head can't you? And this is the man who apparently smashes the potential grand alliance of the living over his inability to dissemble a little bit...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mousewar

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Have I got things mixed up, or was Jon being slightly economical with the actualite when he said you can kill wights with fire or dragon glass? You can also kill them with a solid whack over the head can't you? And this is the man who apparently smashes the potential grand alliance of the living over his inability to dissemble a little bit...

Yeah I thought dragon glass was for the white walkers. I thought you could smash the living crap out of the wights with pretty much anything (ala The Hound with Gendry's hammer). I guess they don't officially 'die' unless there's fire or dragon glass but a pile of disconnected bones on the ground ain't gonna do much damage to anyone.

J. Marston

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Tyrion was making military and naval moves against Jaime and Euron. Being out-thought by them isn't really bungling.

Sleepy

What upsets me most is that what's being left out isn't the stuff that can be justified as being necessary due to budget constraints. I was fine with Drogo's Khalazar looking far too small in Season 1 (and to be fair, they used some clever filming tricks to try and hide the fact they were using 20 or 30 horses to represent a horde of 10,000 like just showing the lead riders crossing a hill with a big dust cloud behind them etc.)

The series is being rushed to completion for the sake of rushing it to completion. The scenes we're missing out on are ones where most of the costs have already been incurred: the actors have already been paid, the sets have already been created, the costumes have already been stitched. It's literally a matter of writing a few more pages of dialogue and paying the filming crew (which have already been assembled) for a few additional days work.

Penn

J. Marston wrote: »

Tyrion was making military and naval moves against Jaime and Euron. Being out-thought by them isn't really bungling.

Agreed. Sending their fleet back to Dorne to pick up the Dornish army to prepare for attack was a good move, but Euron tracked them down. Faking an attack on Kings Landing but actually attacking Casterly Rock was a good plan, but Jaime sacrificed Casterly Rock to take out Highgarden instead.

They were good plans by Tyrion, but the Lannisters just saw it coming and out-played him.

Has Sansa not incriminated herself too by being accessory to killing that woman from the Vale? She lied on Little Finger's

Mr Crispy

seamus wrote: »

It's a bit of a nod to the books, and a passing remark that was made in the show when Tyrion and Jorah were captured. There's a superstition in the GoT universe that a dwarf's cock has magical powers. Probably much like rhino horn is sold as an aphrodisiac.

Yes, I know. Thanks.

AlmightyCushion

Sleepy wrote: »

What upsets me most is that what's being left out isn't the stuff that can be justified as being necessary due to budget constraints. I was fine with Drogo's Khalazar looking far too small in Season 1 (and to be fair, they used some clever filming tricks to try and hide the fact they were using 20 or 30 horses to represent a horde of 10,000 like just showing the lead riders crossing a hill with a big dust cloud behind them etc.)

The series is being rushed to completion for the sake of rushing it to completion. The scenes we're missing out on are ones where most of the costs have already been incurred: the actors have already been paid, the sets have already been created, the costumes have already been stitched. It's literally a matter of writing a few more pages of dialogue and paying the filming crew (which have already been assembled) for a few additional days work.

And paying the actors... who get paid millions per episode. Although I do wonder how it works if they had actors show up more per episode but in less episodes. E.g. extend the season to 10 episode and if Tyrion is in 5 episodes of the current 7, then still only have him in 5 episodes but have him get more screen time. He'd still get the same pay (he's doing the same amount of episodes) but he'd be getting more screen time. It'd probably be difficult now seeing as more of the stories are linking together and more of the main actors are in every or pretty much every episode.

blackwhite

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

And paying the actors... who get paid millions per episode. Although I do wonder how it works if they had actors show up more per episode but in less episodes. E.g. extend the season to 10 episode and if Tyrion is in 5 episodes of the current 7, then still only have him in 5 episodes but have him get more screen time. He'd still get the same pay (he's doing the same amount of episodes) but he'd be getting more screen time. It'd probably be difficult now seeing as more of the stories are linking together and more of the main actors are in every or pretty much every episode.

AFAIK the main cast get paid a fee per episode regardless of how much screen time, because it keeps them contractually obliged to be available for filming at any time during the scheduled filming windows, and also means that there's no danger of pay disputes over filmed scenes not aired, scenes that need 50 takes compared to scenes that only need 10, etc.


(for reference - Screen Actors Guild minimum rates are based on per episode rates for any main cast or "major" roles) https://www.sagaftra.org/files/rate_sheet_television_sag_aftra_8_16.pdf

NuMarvel

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

And paying the actors... who get paid millions per episode. Although I do wonder how it works if they had actors show up more per episode but in less episodes.

(Sorry, couldn't resist )

spacecoyote

Darch Nemesis wrote: »

Yes, I know. Thanks.

I wasn't picking up on it as a reference to a dwarf's magic cocks, but rather a reference to Pod's magic cock after his trip to the brothel when he comes back with the bag of gold

Vojera

Deleted User wrote: »

Has Sansa not incriminated herself too by being accessory to killing that woman from the Vale? She lied on Little Finger's

She did lie, but I'm sure they presume she was being manipulated by Littlefinger, and after all she went through afterwards at his hands, I can't see them challenging her over it, especially not now that she's the Lady of Winterfell.

Besides, that sort of thing is going to seem like small potatoes now that the Wall has fallen.

Mr Crispy

spacecoyote wrote: »

I wasn't picking up on it as a reference to a dwarf's magic cocks, but rather a reference to Pod's magic cock after his trip to the brothel when he comes back with the bag of gold

I wasn't actually asking about the magic cock reference in the episode at all. It was a joke answer to the post before mine, but apparently one only I thought was funny/obvious!

Penn

Vojera wrote: »

She did lie, but I'm sure they presume she was being manipulated by Littlefinger, and after all she went through afterwards at his hands, I can't see them challenging her over it, especially not now that she's the Lady of Winterfell.

Besides, that sort of thing is going to seem like small potatoes now that the Wall has fallen.

I'd hazard a guess that she told Lord Royce about it before Littlefinger's trial, hence why he was there. Admitted she lied and why. I think Royce himself knows what Littlefinger was capable of too, so accepted what Sansa said and knew Littlefinger was the one to blame.

NinjaTruncs

DeadHand wrote: »

It has never been hinted that Tyrion is in love with Dany- you may be thinking of Jorah.

secondrowgal wrote: »

Oh I know Jorah has the serious hots for her, but Tyrion has also been giving her longing looks.

Luckily for me, our good friend LO found the reference I was thinking of - Thanks LO

I was watching a Youtube video yesterday where it was mentioned at one of those cast panels events, probably a comicon or similar, that Dinklage mentioned Tyrion was in love with Dany, but as you pointed out it didn't seem too apparent from the shows.

IMO it would have been better if, in the scene when they were discussing how she would arrive at Winterfell, it was Tyrion who was suggesting she should arrive on Drogon as it may not be safe to travel via road, rather than Jorah, if it was set out like that the final scene would have made more sense as he could have been jealous of Jon getting more influence with Dany as she sided with his point of view in the earlier discussion, bedding her would cement his influence over her.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

I was watching a Youtube video yesterday where it was mentioned at one of those cast panels events, probably a comicon or similar, that Dinklage mentioned Tyrion was in love with Dany, but as you pointed out it didn't seem too apparent from the shows.

If that's the direction he's being given, the writers / directors / producers have done a piss-poor job of allowing him the screen-time for that to be established.

Which is exactly the type of thing I was just ranting about above.... Gah! :mad:

Tell me how

Sleepy wrote:

If that's the direction he's being given, the writers / directors / producers have done a piss-poor job of allowing him the screen-time for that to be established.

If that's the direction it's going then it's poor full stop.

Hard to see what about Dany is attractive to Tyrions character.

You could understand him falling in love with Shea. Him falling for Danaraeys sounds too much like everyone wants to date the prom queen like something from an American teenage romcom.

TCDStudent1

Vojera wrote: »

She did lie, but I'm sure they presume she was being manipulated by Littlefinger, and after all she went through afterwards at his hands, I can't see them challenging her over it, especially not now that she's the Lady of Winterfell.

Besides, that sort of thing is going to seem like small potatoes now that the Wall has fallen.

Can you remind me - what did Sansa lie about?

cython

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Can you remind me - what did Sansa lie about?

Did she not corroborate Littlefinger's story that Lysa Arryn jumped from the moon door, when she actually saw him push her?

Mousewar

Tell me how wrote: »

If that's the direction it's going then it's poor full stop.

Hard to see what about Dany is attractive to Tyrions character.

You could understand him falling in love with Shea. Him falling for Danaraeys sounds too much like everyone wants to date the prom queen like something from an American teenage romcom.

She's a woman. Her and Missandei are the only women he's seen in about a year or so. The poor dwarf probably fancies Varys at this stage

Tell me how

Mousewar wrote:

She's a woman. Her and Missandei are the only women he's seen in about a year or so. The poor dwarf probably fancies Varys at this stage

Agree, but hopefully it won't become a significant storyline.

Loafing Oaf

Tell me how wrote: »

Hard to see what about Dany is attractive to Tyrions character.

Nothing hard about the scenario IMO. Well maybe one thing...:P

Mr Crispy

All joking aside, it's surely a rare experience for a beautiful highborn woman to treat Tyrion with anything other than disdain, pity, contempt, morbid curiosity etc. Now, I'm not saying he loves her, but for her to actually respect him enough to name him her Hand has doubtless coloured his view of her.

My impression of Tyrion's stare at Dany's door was that he was worried about her being distracted by love during a time when they all need their wits about them. I didn't pick up even a hint that he has feelings for her.

Mr Crispy

I suppose; he already got her to ditch Daario for the good of her campaign.