Anti-vaxxers

paul71

Hector Savage wrote: »

You love authoritarianism don't you, you'd be the type ringing the stasi police...

I have small children too young to know what is good for them, I make rules for them to follow.

Societies, even the most liberal have always had people too stupid, dangerous or selfish to do things which keep other members of society safe.

We make laws against stupid. That is a good thing, if people throw their toys out the pram about their freedoms they should first have considered their own responsibilities to others.

xabi_a

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Well we'll just agree to differ so. I see it it as foolish to risk your own health to suit others.

But you're happy to let others risk their health to suit you. I think that's what's grating with a lot of people.

paul71

Hector Savage wrote: »

You love authoritarianism don't you, you'd be the type ringing the stasi police...

There is a covid denial society in Belarus, you could try life there for a while and see how the comment about Stasi compares to a Society like Ireland.

Dr. Greenthumb

xabi_a wrote: »

But you're happy to let others risk their health to suit you. I think that's what's grating with a lot of people.

But if the "others" get the vaccine then they are immune, no? Then how are the people who don't take the vaccine a risk to their health?

shameless liberal

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

But if the "others" get the vaccine then they are immune, no? Then how are the people who don't take the vaccine a risk to their health?

Have you heard about herd immunity? If enough people take this stance, then Covid continues to have a reservoir in which to replicate. As immunity from vaccination dwindles in the vaccinated, then the virus emerges from the unvaccinated or non-immune reservoir back to others. We need sufficient uptake en masse.

martingriff

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

But if the "others" get the vaccine then they are immune, no? Then how are the people who don't take the vaccine a risk to their health?

Because there are some who can't take a vaccine who rely on other taking it and building up the herd immunity

Timberrrrrrrr

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

But if the "others" get the vaccine then they are immune, no? Then how are the people who don't take the vaccine a risk to their health?

The same way People who refuse to get measles vaccines are a danger to others.

Dr. Greenthumb

martingriff wrote: »

Because there are some who can't take a vaccine who rely on other taking it and building up the herd immunity

So the answer is to mandate that perfectly healthy people with an extremely low risk of a bad infection have to get a vaccine they don't need?

I fully understand herd immunity and how that works with common vaccines however those illnesses that are been vaccinated against are a lot higher risk to people that get infected than Covid.

It's not black and white, you can't force people to get a vaccine against an illness that there isn't even clear data on.

Dr. Greenthumb

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

The same way People who refuse to get measles vaccines are a danger to others.

Measles and covid are incomparable IMO. We know the affects of measles, we don't even now the true number of deaths that are actually caused by Covid.

Hector Savage

Hector Savage wrote: »

You love authoritarianism don't you, you'd be the type ringing the stasi police...

If it wasn't for antivaxxers, measles would be wiped out by now... Luckily it wasn't an issue at the time of smallpox and polio. Now we're facing a health threat that is incredibly dangerous so I'm not gonna sympathise with buffoons who might not be able to go on their annual holiday or to attend concerts, because they're not going to get vaccinated. Funnily enough, certain states in the US back during smallpox made it mandatory to get the vaccine, I suspect you would have been similarly outraged at the time.

Dr. Greenthumb

Deleted User wrote: »

If it wasn't for antivaxxers, measles would be wiped out by now... Luckily it wasn't an issue at the time of smallpox and polio. Now we're facing a health threat that is incredibly dangerous so I'm not gonna sympathise with buffoons who might not be able to go on their annual holiday or to attend concerts, because they're not going to get vaccinated. Funnily enough, certain states in the US back during smallpox made it mandatory to get the vaccine, I suspect you would have been similarly outraged at the time.

Before the smallpox vaccine 1 in 13 deaths in London were due to smallpox, so there is no comparison really. This is the hyperbole and exaggeration that causes people to question the government's mass roll out of a vaccine for an illness that no worse than a flu for most people.

martingriff

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

So the answer is to mandate that perfectly healthy people with an extremely low risk of a bad infection have to get a vaccine they don't need?

I fully understand herd immunity and how that works with common vaccines however those illnesses that are been vaccinated against are a lot higher risk to people that get infected than Covid.

It's not black and white, you can't force people to get a vaccine against an illness that there isn't even clear data on.

So far your not been forced you just asked to be a decent human being to protect others. Do you know everyone who has an underlying illness, you can probably see who is elderly but the others is not so easy.

If private companies or countries deny you from coming in to a place if you do not have a vaccine that is there right. Disagree go somewhere else or challenge it in court

Dr. Greenthumb

martingriff wrote: »

So far your not been forced you just asked to be a decent human being to protect others. Do you know everyone who has an underlying illness, you can probably see who is elderly but the others is not so easy.

If private companies or countries deny you from coming in to a place if you do not have a vaccine that is there right. Disagree go somewhere else or challenge it in court

So your answer is to try and shame people into taking the vaccine by questioning their decency? We don't even know the true death rate from covid.

If people don't want to take the vaccine and it's made clear certain airlines whatever won't let them on then that's their choice, I don't see why you're concerned whether Joe Dole can go on a holiday or not.

IMO a lot of deaths are as a result of a larger number of people living into their 80s & 90s kept going by advances in medical care. Our bodies can only go on so long and a bad flu season would also have a serious impact on that demographic.

Dr. Greenthumb

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

Before the smallpox vaccine 1 in 13 deaths in London were due to smallpox, so there is no comparison really. This is the hyperbole and exaggeration that causes people to question the government's mass roll out of a vaccine for an illness that no worse than a flu for most people.

It is far worse than the flu, think of the numbers that have died with some measures in place against it. A very bad year for flu deaths in the US is 60k. They're currently approaching 300k dead from covid, so no worse than the flu? Bull****. Realistically, there won't be mandatory vaccines but your decision to not get one impinging upon your right to holiday or attend concerts. You don't have an automatic right to do any of those things, particularly in the case of public health and extraordinary circumstances.

martingriff

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

So your answer is to try and shame people into taking the vaccine by questioning their decency? We don't even know the true death rate from covid.

If people don't want to take the vaccine and it's made clear certain airlines whatever won't let them on then that's their choice, I don't see why you're concerned whether Joe Dole can go on a holiday or not.

IMO a lot of deaths are as a result of a larger number of people living into their 80s & 90s kept going by advances in medical care. Our bodies can only go on so long and a bad flu season would also have a serious impact on that demographic.

Please show where I am shaming you. If you think it is shaming you maybe you need to ask yourself why you feel that way and I do not give 1 bit of notice if you or anyone can go on a holiday or anywhere thought that was made clear by what I typed. I do care about the health of those I know and my family and I will do what I can to keep them and myself healthy. I am glad you were not my Nans doctor when she went in to hospital for a bit in her 80's or she never would have lived to be to 103 and healthy to the day she died. I suppose you want to go back to the good old days where life expectancy was in the late 60's. I bet your tune will change when you get to those ages and love the advances in medicine

Dr. Greenthumb

Deleted User wrote: »

It is far worse than the flu, think of the numbers that have died with some measures in place against it. A very bad year for flu deaths in the US is 60k. They're currently approaching 300k dead from covid, so no worse than the flu? Bull****. Realistically, there won't be mandatory vaccines but your decision to not get one impinging upon your right to holiday or attend concerts. You don't have an automatic right to do any of those things, particularly in the case of public health and extraordinary circumstances.

Why are you using US numbers, I don't think it is a surprise they are hit hardest, they have a huge amount of diabetic and pre-diabetic people as well as other conditions. The only country in the world where life expectancy is reducing due to their unhealthy lifestyles.

How can you say it's worse than the flu when we don't even have clear stats on whether covid was the actual cause of death or whether it was present in someone with a host of other complications. So those 300k deaths maybe significantly less as direct death due to covid.

I would argue that preventing people from traveling etc, due to not getting the vaccine won't hold up. You cannot enforce vaccines or any other medical procedure under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Refusing someone the right to mobility and travel due to them not taking a vaccine would be in contradiction to that I would think.

Dr. Greenthumb

martingriff wrote: »

Please show where I am shaming you. If you think it is shaming you maybe you need to ask yourself why you feel that way and I do not give 1 bit of notice if you or anyone can go on a holiday or anywhere thought that was made clear by what I typed. I do care about the health of those I know and my family and I will do what I can to keep them and myself healthy. I am glad you were not my Nans doctor when she went in to hospital for a bit in her 80's or she never would have lived to be to 103 and healthy to the day she died. I suppose you want to go back to the good old days where life expectancy was in the late 60's. I bet your tune will change when you get to those ages and love the advances in medicine

You are questioning whether someone is a decent human being based on whether they agree to get a vaccine or not. To me you are putting it out there that if they don't get it they are not a decent human being.

Fair play to your nan, you seem to think I'm against vaccines, not the case. I do think rolling out a mass vaccine policy for an illness that is not fully understood is premature.

Not sure where you got the bolded part from.

martingriff

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

You are questioning whether someone is a decent human being based on whether they agree to get a vaccine or not. To me you are putting it out there that if they don't get it they are not a decent human being.

Fair play to your nan, you seem to think I'm against vaccines, not the case. I do think rolling out a mass vaccine policy for an illness that is not fully understood is premature.

Not sure where you got the bolded part from.

Your last 2 lines of the pieces your wrote I quoted

Dr. Greenthumb

martingriff wrote: »

Your last 2 lines of the pieces your wrote I quoted

I don't think that's debatable really, the longer people live, the higher the demographic over say 80 the more susceptible they will be to all causes of death be it flu, cardiac arrest etc. and now covid.

Of course we should protect them but I don't think mandating vaccinations for everyone to protect the elder demographic is as reasonable as you think. Is no one allowed to die from covid?

I see people saying 1 death is too much which is ridiculous, we don't shut down for the flu season each year.

I understand you position, it's what make the subject so difficult as it's personal for so many as we all have elderly relatives.

wes

YFlyer wrote: »

He has a low key type of phone. One of those Nokia 410 type. I guess there is gps features in them?

They can track people via cell towers. Sure not as accurate as GPS, but they can track people per cell tower area.

Capt'n Midnight

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

Before the smallpox vaccine 1 in 13 deaths in London were due to smallpox, so there is no comparison really. This is the hyperbole and exaggeration that causes people to question the government's mass roll out of a vaccine for an illness that no worse than a flu for most people.

One person out every thousand in the USA has died or will die soon from Covid-19.

Any vaccine safer that that is a win.


The US recorded 199,988 new cases yesterday, it isn't remotely close to slowing down so it's still early days.


BTW
Measles is no worse than a flu for most people. People used to catch it to get it out of the way. Because there was no alternative.

Now we are close to eradicating it forever but anti-vaxxers are dedicated to ensuring that future generations will face it.

We live in good times relatively speaking. Mass disease is a side effect of war. Massive DDT use at the end of WII stopped the spread of insect carried diseases in Europe. If times get bad the diseases can come back. Unless it's been made extinct.

With Covid-19 there is no evidence catching it will give immunity for life.

It's a new disease so the long term health implications are not fully known. Shingles is where chickenpox caught in childhood can come back to bite in later life.

Capt'n Midnight

wes wrote: »

They can track people via cell towers. Sure not as accurate as GPS, but they can track people per cell tower area.

The location tracing available to the emergency services from masts has been deliberately degraded because of privacy concerns.

Sectored antennas, time of travel and triangulation from adjacent towers means that tracking by mast is trivial, but it's not handed out to all and sundry.

Note Google records WiFi locations too with their Google map camera vans. And from phones with GPS on.



Oh and Mobiles have GPS and can phone home. This means that other tracking mechanisms can be calibrated.

Go to somewhere like the UK or China and you'll be tracked by facial recognition by CCTV. Body language tracking has been tested too. There isn't any need to chip people who don't carry phones. If anything not carrying a phone will make you stand out more.

sbsquarepants

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

your intuition doesn't understand statistics.

I have a basic understanding of statistics, i'm not a statistician, but you don't need to be a statistician to see that it would be very easy for a trial of 30,000 to miss a 1/30,000 occurrence - it could quite easily miss a 1/10,000 occurrence.


Are you with your superior statistical knowledge claiming this not to be the case?

CramCycle wrote: »

It's really not, at this point it would have to be such an incredibly rare event that the chances of you getting it are remote. The other option is a time dependent one, in which case you should state how long is satisfactory to you but the very basic point is, you are effectively saying you will never take it, because there sound like you will always want more time or more people.

If we're talking about a global roll out, i wouldn't say 1/10,000 is incredibly rare, or even 1/30,000.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Where's the risk to your health in self-isolating?

Very little that i can see, i'm not sure what you're talking about?

xabi_a wrote: »

But you're happy to let others risk their health to suit you. I think that's what's grating with a lot of people.

Well it will just have to grate so. All manner of things risk other peoples health. Smoking, burning coal, driving cars, pubs, fast food - the list is practically endless ffs!

sbsquarepants

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

With Covid-19 there is no evidence catching it will give immunity for life.

It's a new disease so the long term health implications are not fully known. Shingles is where chickenpox caught in childhood can come back to bite in later life.

There's no evidence the vaccine does either. If the bloody disease is so new that we don't really know what it does, how could we possibly know what the even newer vaccine developed at break neck speed to counteract it does?


The answer is simply we don't.

Igotadose

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One person out every thousand in the USA has died or will die soon from Covid-19.

Any vaccine safer that that is a win.


The US recorded 199,988 new cases yesterday, it isn't remotely close to slowing down so it's still early days.


BTW
Measles is no worse than a flu for most people. People used to catch it to get it out of the way. Because there was no alternative.

Now we are close to eradicating it forever but anti-vaxxers are dedicated to ensuring that future generations will face it.

We live in good times relatively speaking. Mass disease is a side effect of war. Massive DDT use at the end of WII stopped the spread of insect carried diseases in Europe. If times get bad the diseases can come back. Unless it's been made extinct.

With Covid-19 there is no evidence catching it will give immunity for life.

It's a new disease so the long term health implications are not fully known. Shingles is where chickenpox caught in childhood can come back to bite in later life.

Measles can have long term implications, at least 1 poster here recounted the sad story of a relative who caught it and ended up dying young after a difficult life. Deafness and blindness from measles was a thing when this old fart was young and the vaccine hadn't been around that long. "Hard of hearing" in adults might very well be due to measles when young.


As for Shingles, definitely true, and you can get it multiple times. Unfortunately the best vaccine isn't available yet in Ireland (Shingrix) but there is Zostervax, if you haven't got it yet and are in the age group (50+) get it.

Hotblack Desiato

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Well we'll just agree to differ so. I see it it as foolish to risk your own health to suit others. Whatever venues are off limits to me, i will live without. When i see that large numbers of others have taken it without any issues, then i'll go get it myself.

No need to worry. By the time it's offered to you, at least tens but likely hundreds of millions of people will have taken it already. :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Dr. Greenthumb wrote: »

I would argue that preventing people from traveling etc, due to not getting the vaccine won't hold up. You cannot enforce vaccines or any other medical procedure under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Refusing someone the right to mobility and travel due to them not taking a vaccine would be in contradiction to that I would think.

Well you'd be totally wrong. There are countries you cannot enter without proof of a recent enough yellow fever vaccine, and this has been the case for decades.

Seth Brundle

I hadn't heard about this poll (maybe someone else has) but I'll admit that a lot of the anti-vaccine (& 5G, & fluoride) protest nonsense mentioned in this twitter thread surprised me.

https://twitter.com/daveirl/status/1334607223423709192

Hotblack Desiato

Fcuking idiots :mad:

Das Reich

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

One person out every thousand in the USA has died or will die soon from Covid-19.

Have any number of deaths from previous years and for this year just for some comparison? 0,1% is a lot to add at the total numbers, more than 10% of total deaths. So it would make a big difference compared to 2019.