Anti-vaxxers

Guy:Incognito

skepticalme wrote: »

. Regarding regret, there was a time when doctors listened to their patients.

They still do. Right up until all the studies show no links between a vaccine and the claims of parents trying to link their daughters issues to it.

How much time should doctors spend treating things that the scientific evidence say there's no link for but a parent, with no medical training, says there is?

PlaneSpeeking

skepticalme wrote: »

I have to disagree with this. Wakefield simply referred the children. The co author of the paper Professor John Walker Smith one of the worlds leading gastroenterologists did all the clinical tests. All were medically indicated and he's been cleared of any wrongdoing.
And now bowel issues are being discovered in association with autism. Almost 20 years before Drs would go there again which is very sad for affected children, who were being treated for behavioral issues when in fact they were in agony and lashing out because of that.
The motive point, it was the Royal Free hospital that had a patent and it wasn't a vaccine.
I don't expect anyone to read anything, I was just wondering if anyone did.

I have a nephew with autism and whilst I have no wish to delve into details (mainly because arguing with an anti-vaxxer is like playing chess with a pigeon) but bowel issues are common.

Generally speaking because a) a bowel movement can happen at any time and the child does not like anything not routine and b) please Google autism+child+smearing.

MRI vaccines do not causes autism. Autism in something one is born with, and lives with.

kylith

Breadsons wrote: »

My niece was born home birth, her mother never allowed her to have vaccinations to this day, she had an impeccable school attendance and now is in collage and still never got vaccinated. I got the flu jab three years ago and was crook the whole winter with colds. Vaccination is a big pharma scam.

I worked with a woman who's parents didn't vaccinate her. She's perfectly healthy.

Except for the wheelchair.

Because of polio.

sullivlo

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I have a nephew with autism and whilst I have no wish to delve into details (mainly because arguing with an anti-vaxxer is like playing chess with a pigeon) but bowel issues are common.

Generally speaking because a) a bowel movement can happen at any time and the child does not like anything not routine and b) please Google autism+child+smearing.

MRI vaccines do not causes autism. Autism in something one is born with, and lives with.

MMR vaccines cause adults, not autism.

kylith

sullivlo wrote: »

MMR vaccines cause adults, not autism.

Actually, since people on the autism spectrum often gravitate to the sciences it's more like autism causes vaccines

Pedro K

skepticalme wrote: »

I was wondering do people read up anything at all or go as far as the scientific studies. Regarding regret, there was a time when doctors listened to their patients.

Well, I'm currently working as a research scientist. So yes. I do. Do you? Or do you just lift it off regret and ignore the absolute ocean of evidence in favour of vaccines?

PlaneSpeeking

sullivlo wrote: »

MMR vaccines cause adults, not autism.

Beautifully put!

I have actually read on FB that "measles are just a few spots" and when some brave soul reminded them it was a deadly communicable disease - replied "I've done my research hun, we'll agree to disagree".

kunst nugget

kylith wrote: »

I worked with a woman who's parents didn't vaccinate her. She's perfectly healthy.

Except for the wheelchair.

Because of polio.

Polio is one of those make-uppy disease that big Pharma use to scare you into filling your kids full of toxic mercury and other mind control drugs. What KKKhemical companies did was paid a bunch of parents back in the 40s to be allowed to twist the limbs of some kids to create a scare about the fake Polio epidemic. Everyone knows that. How many people do you see getting Polio? None. Because it doesn't exist. Wake up sheeple!!!

VinLieger

skepticalme wrote: »

I was wondering do people read up anything at all or go as far as the scientific studies. Regarding regret, there was a time when doctors listened to their patients.

Dcotors did listen, studies were done, there was no statistical increase in the symptoms parents were reporting from a time before the HPV vaccine was introduced and after it was introduced indicating the HPV vaccine did not cause these issues. Much like autism and the MMR the symptoms these children experience happen to coincidentally rear their heads around the age these vaccines are administered.

I expect you are well aware of all this already but just in case Correlation does not imply causation.

TomSweeney

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

....(mainly because arguing with an anti-vaxxer is like playing chess with a pigeon) ...

Thank you ! , I will be using this :pac:

Pedro K

VinLieger wrote: »

Dcotors did listen, studies were done, there was no statistical increase in the symptoms parents were reporting from a time before the HPV vaccine was introduced and after it was introduced indicating the HPV vaccine did not cause these issues. Much like autism and the MMR the symptoms these children experience happen to coincidentally rear their heads around the age these vaccines are administered.

I expect you are well aware of all this already but just in case Correlation does not imply causation.

From a book called Spurious Correlations, by Tyler Vigen

Neyite

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Not to go back to the 8th debate but having to wait 6 days for an MRI in case I was pregnant is a million miles away from forced rape and the abandonment of free society.

Yes, your 6 day wait is thankfully a million miles away from the traumatic experiences of Ms. C, Ms B, Ms P, Ms X, Ms D, Ms Y, and Savita to name just a few of the thousands women affected by our constitution and laws surrounding their reproductive organs.

King of Kings

sullivlo wrote: »

You were doing so well, and I was preparing a nice response to match your nice post.

But then big pharma bad so..... nah.

firstly seems a bit petty of a decision to make.
A standard deflection tactic....although I wont accuse you of using it or grandstanding to audience with a pithy putdown.

secondly, I've nowhere stated "big pharm bad" as you put it...merely they are big . And they are big.

I dont think they are bad per se when compared to another multinational business.

But in the same vein, they shouldnt treated as the second coming of jesus either.

They are a business , they invest heavily in R&D ...there is a pressure to get stuff on the market given.the costs...As a consumer I think we should be aware of that and be aware of holes ik their argument.

I gave a decent example of past failings but you chose the putdown over the debate.
I guess we are where we are....

coffee_cake

sullivlo wrote: »

I had a very close friend who stopped her chemo and other cancer therapies on the advice of a cancer nutritionist who advised a very strict diet to stop feeding the cancer cells.

You’ll note the word “had”.

These people should be arrested for manslaughter

skepticalme

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I have a nephew with autism and whilst I have no wish to delve into details (mainly because arguing with an anti-vaxxer is like playing chess with a pigeon) but bowel issues are common.

Generally speaking because a) a bowel movement can happen at any time and the child does not like anything not routine and b) please Google autism+child+smearing.

MRI vaccines do not causes autism. Autism in something one is born with, and lives with.

Yes I know that, I'm talking about violent behaviour issues not sensory issues in relation to children with Autism and bowel issues, usually non verbal children. I haven't said anything about MMR causing autism.

skepticalme

VinLieger wrote: »

Dcotors did listen, studies were done, there was no statistical increase in the symptoms parents were reporting from a time before the HPV vaccine was introduced and after it was introduced indicating the HPV vaccine did not cause these issues. Much like autism and the MMR the symptoms these children experience happen to coincidentally rear their heads around the age these vaccines are administered.

I expect you are well aware of all this already but just in case Correlation does not imply causation.

The HPV vaccine is now to be given to boys. There is plenty of time now to collect data on conditions in boys at the age of vaccine before the vaccine is introduced. This information would be helpful in future in case any boys get mixed up with correlation and causation.

sullivlo

King of Kings wrote: »

firstly seems a bit petty of a decision to make.
A standard deflection tactic....although I wont accuse you of using it or grandstanding to audience with a pithy putdown.

secondly, I've nowhere stated "big pharm bad" as you put it...merely they are big . And they are big.

I dont think they are bad per se when compared to another multinational business.

But in the same vein, they shouldnt treated as the second coming of jesus either.

They are a business , they invest heavily in R&D ...there is a pressure to get stuff on the market given.the costs...As a consumer I think we should be aware of that and be aware of holes ik their argument.

I gave a decent example of past failings but you chose the putdown over the debate.
I guess we are where we are....

I was paraphrasing, and apologies if it wasn’t your intention to cast doubt over pharmaceutical companies by mentioning GSK and their case.

That GSK case is the go-to for anti vax when challenged.

knipex

skepticalme wrote: »

The HPV vaccine is now to be given to boys. There is plenty of time now to collect data on conditions in boys at the age of vaccine before the vaccine is introduced. This information would be helpful in future in case any boys get mixed up with correlation and causation.

Lots of work done on the topic


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1887491

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5655643/

VinLieger

skepticalme wrote: »

The HPV vaccine is now to be given to boys. There is plenty of time now to collect data on conditions in boys at the age of vaccine before the vaccine is introduced. This information would be helpful in future in case any boys get mixed up with correlation and causation.

Why is the data previously collected not good enough all of a sudden? Would it perhaps be because it doesnt agree with your own opinion?

skepticalme

knipex wrote: »

Lots of work done on the topic


https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/1887491

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5655643/

Those are about nocebo effect.
I meant data on actual illness in young boys, e.g. the illness that the girls claim they have since the vaccine.

skepticalme

VinLieger wrote: »

Why is the data previously collected not good enough all of a sudden? Would it perhaps be because it doesnt agree with your own opinion?

Do they have this data on boys? Great if it's there.

ancapailldorcha

skepticalme wrote: »

I have to disagree with this. Wakefield simply referred the children. The co author of the paper Professor John Walker Smith one of the worlds leading gastroenterologists did all the clinical tests. All were medically indicated and he's been cleared of any wrongdoing.
And now bowel issues are being discovered in association with autism. Almost 20 years before Drs would go there again which is very sad for affected children, who were being treated for behavioral issues when in fact they were in agony and lashing out because of that.
The motive point, it was the Royal Free hospital that had a patent and it wasn't a vaccine.
I don't expect anyone to read anything, I was just wondering if anyone did.

Walker Smith is a co-author of a retracted paper which precludes him from being world leading at anything IMO.

Have you an actual argument or do you just intend to soapbox?

KevinCavan

The swine flu jab gave people narcolepsy, so vaccines aren’t all good either. They can have adverse consequences.

blanch152

King of Kings wrote: »

firstly not all vaccines are the same....so to be blanket pro vaxx or anti vaxx is silly.
although I can see where anti vaxx people come from with a general point.

I dont think the HPV one is worth the risk...From my reading I dont know if it's dangerous but I dont see the benefit considering what HPV strains it prevents...and how long the vaccine is active for...
What worries me is the push for this vaccine and the demonisation for anybody who questions it...you should always be suspicious if people biteback when you question something...the proponents can claim its safe but people like the FG Td kate o'connell (to name one) have only read literature and marketing blurb on it...only the actual testers know for sure..you dont get the same level of comfort from a peer review .

tbh and it beggars belief that given what a ****hole the HSE is that people would trust their word.

Not once have I heard a HSE offical outline what research they have conducted on behave of the people of ireland. My belief is they have done nothing...once its approved they believe its good in their eyes.

Its not like big pharma havent been caught out faking results in.the past and pushing drugs on people that were dangerous

Take as an example glaxosmithkline were hammered in court for false results for their anti depressant paxil.

take your medicine if you want...but dont rely on the words of a marketing depart or a civil servant. I wont be betting my kids future on the HPV.

In light of the cervical smear issue, where at a minimum, it is now clear that screening is less than 100% effective in detecting the early stages of the cancer, how can you say that the HPV vaccine is not worth the risk?

Absolutely incredible that after the last few months, there are still people against the HPV vaccine.

PlaneSpeeking

blanch152 wrote: »

In light of the cervical smear issue, where at a minimum, it is now clear that screening is less than 100% effective in detecting the early stages of the cancer, how can you say that the HPV vaccine is not worth the risk?

Absolutely incredible that after the last few months, there are still people against the HPV vaccine.

Ah to be fair though, Jacinta next door felt a bit unwell three weeks after having it so you can see why thousands of parents ignore science! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

knipex

blanch152 wrote: »

In light of the cervical smear issue, where at a minimum, it is now clear that screening is less than 100% effective in detecting the early stages of the cancer, how can you say that the HPV vaccine is not worth the risk?

Absolutely incredible that after the last few months, there are still people against the HPV vaccine.

I still struggle to understand where the idea that any screening program was 100% effective came from.

I genuinely though that everyone realised that they were around 65 to 70%.

blanch152

knipex wrote: »

I still struggle to understand where the idea that any screening program was 100% effective came from.

I genuinely though that everyone realised that they were around 65 to 70%.

I agree with you, but you would think that all of the stories of women dying horrible deaths from cervical cancer would have alerted some of the anti-vaxxers to the benefits of the HPV vaccine.

ancapailldorcha

KevinCavan wrote: »

The swine flu jab gave people narcolepsy, so vaccines aren’t all good either. They can have adverse consequences.

You're just moving the goalposts now.

Igotadose

knipex wrote: »

I still struggle to understand where the idea that any screening program was 100% effective came from.

I genuinely though that everyone realised that they were around 65 to 70%.

This is a really interesting point. At least 1 of the publicized cases involves a woman who'd had cervical cancer before and all the signs of being prone to it. Why she wasn't insisting on regular (annual) scans and perhaps more detailed followups is something we'll never know. AFAIK I too thought it well known that these tests aren't 100% accurate, no test ever is.

Cordell

KevinCavan wrote: »

They can have adverse consequences.

They HAVE side effects, some of them serious, some of them lethal. Just like any other drug.
But, risk/benefit is what matters.